Romans 5:19

[Dave]

Rom 5:18 So then, through the transgression of one, condemnation came to all men; likewise, through the righteousness of one came righteousness of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many will be set right forever.

Question for Robert – what does this verse say – in your world?

Rom 5:20 (KJV) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.

And why do you deny?
But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

---------------

Rom 5:20 (TLV) Now the Torah came in so that transgression might increase. …
Rom 5:20 (ASV) And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; …
What? Why?

Answer
Rom 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:13 (TLV) For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
Rom 5:13 (YLT) for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
Rom 5:13 (ASV) for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law

Where there is no LAW – there is no SIN
BUT
Eve (the feminine), Adam, man, every man, any man, mankind chose to live under LAW

AND now we find out that the LAW is impossible to keep as an animal
We are animal (yester ra) – they call it animal lust / attraction / desire for a reason
We live and breathe breaking the LAW

Rom 7:14 For we know that the Torah is spiritual (yester tov); but I am of the flesh (yester ra), sold to sin.

Rom 7:15 For I do not understand what I am doing— (it is the Contest of Gen 3:15 – beyond my control)
for what I do not want, this I practice but what I hate, this I do. (yester ra);

Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not want to do,(yester ra)
then I agree with the Torah—that it is good. (yester tov – I stand convicted – I need to atone)

Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I (yester tov child of God) doing it, but sin dwelling in me. (yester ra)

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me—that is, in my flesh. (animal yester ra)
For to will is present in me,(Free Will – yester tov) but to do the good is not. (animal yester ra)

Rom 7:19 For the good that I want (yester tov), I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. (yester ra)

Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I (yester ton – child of God) doing it, but sin that dwells in me. (animal yester ra)
Rom 7:21 So I find the principle—that evil is present in me(yester ra), the one who wants to do good. (yester tov)

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, (inner man – the soul – of yester tov)

Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts.

YES! Man = (yester tov –spirit/soul) + (animal mind/body - yester ra) – the inner struggle

Rom 7:24 Miserable man that I am!

Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Rom 5:20 (KJV) … But where sin increased, grace overflowed even more—
Rom 5:20 (TLV) … But where sin increased, grace overflowed even more—
Rpm 5:20 (YLT) … and where the sin did abound, the grace did over abound

John 3:16

Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death,
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; (Mortal / biology)

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it—dying (first death – mortal death / biology) thou dost die.' (2nd death – spiritual)

Rom 5:21 … so also grace might reign through righteousness, to eternal life through Messiah Yeshua our Lord
Rom 6:23 … but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

May 28, 2021 4:33:17 GMT -5 @robertt said:

R"I see, so … interpret the verse for me?

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ?

And than explain how one man's sin makes us sinners?

May 28, 2021 6:04:35 GMT -5 Dave said:

Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ?
Every one of them - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set / establish

And than explain how one man's sin makes us sinners?

Before Eve – ra was in the WORLD – but no sin because there was only one LAW given
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it
No one had ever broken this LAW

Until Eve broke the LAW – of all the WORLD there was only one LAW – and she broke it [/b]

So now all men are under all the LAW[/font] – all 613 written ones – and the many unwritten ones

Rom 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man (Eve) sin (LAW) entered into the world, and death by sin (LAW); and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(broken the LAW)

Psa 14:2  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 
Psa 14:3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Psa 53:2  God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 
Psa 53:3  Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 

How did Adam and Eve react to this gnosis – they were embarrassed and ashamed
How did Paul react to this gnosis –
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

deliver me from the body

POINT – I am not my Body
From God we came – we are souljourning through this mortal WORLD – on a mission

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”

And to God we return

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

[Dave]

May 28, 2021 8:35:38 GMT -5 Dave said:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
deliver me from the body

POINT – I am not my Body
From God we came – we are souljourning through this mortal WORLD – on a mission

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”

And to God we return

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

If I am not my body - who am I?

[Deleted]

You have a strange view on things?

Why do you say I am not my body?

Did not GOD place the DNA code of living inside your body, is this code not holy and sacred? You are a book of living. How can you say you are not of this book of living? Do you deny God's words placed inside you?

Scripture is all about the memrah and the personification of words in humans.

Humans live because they are the memrah of words from the DNA (God).

Jesus is another simile of the memrah of the words from the Father, to rescue us.

Why do we need rescue? Because our words in us are missing.

When the DNA words and letters are missing, we call corruption of the living words.

Scripture calls it a sin.

The DNA encoding machine records all you do and ACT, as well how you live.

Once the DNA code and it's words has letters missing, they are missing forever. Now humanity has a problem. A big problem, due to a single act of sin by Adam and Eve.

The machinery was equipped with error checking, so couldn't the missing be naturally fixed. Because some RA is held accountable as sin by transgression. Adam disobeyed God and hence another ruler ruled over Adam.

1 Kings 22 tells how when a sinner wishes to sin more and more, God allows a lying medium permission to go forth as the Father of SIN. The Father of Sin is the Devil, Satan who sinning long ago in heaven as a cherub angel.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man chataah (sin-offering) entered into the world, and death by chataah (sin-offering); and so death passed upon all men, for that all have chata sinned:

The KJV is not consistent in translating hamartia as sin-offering . The difference is subtle but important.

What happened when Adam sinned a court declaration in heaven declared condemnation upon Adam, and he lost his title as prince of this world.

Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,

So another Being, the Being who tricked Adam to sin, is now prince of the earth.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now many make light of the meaning of kathestemi, simply means to "Establish" .
But when you look the context of Gen 41:41 and Gen 42:6, Pharoah established Joseph to be a ruler over the land. So the overall direction of this establish, is to establish one to rule. This idea is conveyed by shalliyt.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were established-by-one-ruler as sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many established-by-one-ruler as righteous.

This passage highlights the Great Controversy of a prince of earth as a ruler over humans who sin, are subjects under this ruler, and another prince of earth, as a ruler over humans who want to be sinless, under this ruler of Jesus, thus save humans.

When the prince of earth got Adam to sin, Satan corrupted the DNA code, the living words, thus causing a great curse upon the earth, because of his doing.

There are only some torah texts to suggest this idea.

Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

The Hebrew word aven, means genetic seed, or propensities. Where did corrupted aven come from? From sin? Yes, but does this mean GOD corrupted Adam's own living words inside him? or did the prince of evil corrupt the living words inside Adam?

Mt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this/

Why does God declare this differently?

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

God doesn't. The serpent is cursed first because the serpent changes the living words inside Adam.

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Notice the seeds are referred to here. One needs to study zera and see how it relates to aven, which is not mentioned here.


Job 4:8 Even as I have seen <ra'ah>, they that plow <charash> iniquity <'aven>, and sow <zara`> wickedness <`amal>, reap <qatsar> the same.

Here is one verse Zara (verb) is same spelling as Zera (noun). With Aven (genetic seeds).

Once mankind is inherited with corrupt DNA-living words, we are subject to daily dying.
Who can rescue man from this problem? Only Jesus can.

How is this mischief written in the Law? The ten words are detailed in the judgements

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

One has to die with perfect living words, to exchange the corrupted living words, hence one dies eternally so the other lives eternally.

Only divinity can achieve this, for only divinity has immortal living words.

Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What does the Spirit do for us in Jesus?

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus comes into us, via the medium of the HS, and quickens our living words (DNA) so we can become perfected again. The mind returns to Jesus by faith, and the biology also slowly changes back to non-corrupt code once again, restored.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Once the DNA code has the living words back, as before, we can go on living forever in a sinless state. The mind already never wishes to transgress and the aven seeds only do physical good in us. We are fully restored, this in this sense "put on immortality".

Does not mean we become immortal, only that all things are perfectly restored as before Adam sinned, we even get back the original Garden of Eden.

Shalom

[Dave]

You have a strange view on things?
Why do you say I am not my body?

Excuse me Christian – Paul said it – how can you so easily deny scripture

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Why is our body – a body of death?
And how can Paul be delivered from his body of death – if he is the body?

Answer – because Eve (feminine) took a bite –all mankind is under the Law
Therefore – all mankind will suffer a mortal death –
Because all men are animals with (yester ra) all men are sinners
And the wages of sin = mortal death

How can Paul be rescued from his body of dead – by being released from it

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

The second time Paul speaks of being out of the body

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Messiah (whether in the body I don’t know, or whether out of the body I don’t know—God knows)—fourteen years ago, he was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)—

The third time Paul says it – twice

If man has no spirit – how can man be out of his body?

What happened when Adam sinned a court declaration in heaven declared condemnation upon Adam,

Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,

So you have a court in heaven – which you argue against, why would God need a prosecutor
heaven declared condemnation – I though your satan ruled Eve to sin?

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
And your satan rules all men thoughts

Now many make light of the meaning of kathestemi, simply means to "Establish" .
And you are back to being ruled by your god satan
But when you look the context of Gen 41:41 and Gen 42:6, Pharoah established Joseph to be a ruler over the land. So the overall direction of this establish, is to establish one to rule. This idea is conveyed by shalliyt.

When you pick two words out of two different sentences to build a doctrine – you can say anything

Jesus is a stick and hell is a woman – He is a branch and SHE opens her mouth
Women are to be subservient to their masters / husband
Women are not to wear make-up (Amish) or play card and dance (Presbyterian)
Women cannot teach – can’t even speak in church, even if she has a question
If you have cancer - it only means you have sinned
Only sinner died in the Great Plague of Europe
And if you really believe – the venom of vipers will not harm you

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were established-by-one-ruler as sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many established-by-one-ruler as righteous.

This passage highlights the Great Controversy of a prince of earth as a ruler over humans who sin, are subjects under this ruler

There ya go – you ruler – your god – satan

You confuse the WORLD with the BEAST and the God’s prosecutor satan
Everything is satan to you – and still you do not care to distinguish between them
Just lump all the evil into one word called satan – Robert Method

The Hebrew word aven, means genetic seed, or propensities. Where did corrupted aven come from?
All you can see is the WORLD – because you have been taught to deny the spirit
All you can talk about is the world of matter

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

THE FIELD of play is the WORLD – Gen 3:15

Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this
And the enemy of Gen 3:15 = THE WORLD – the domain of the archon

Ge 3:14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
YES Robert – the archon are trapped to the WORLD – this is their kingdom / domain
So the curse to the serpent – was to be and act like a serpent
YES – this is sort of obvious

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Notice the seeds are referred to here.
And you already defined then as - The Hebrew word aven, means genetic seed,

So who are satan’s genetic (matter) offspring?
Your satan is a cherub – and angels cannot father children – your argument
You argue – the bane elohiym cannot be angels – that fathered the Nephilim
So – who are satan’s genetic offspring that you say he cannot father?

You deny our real struggle – Paul’s Principalities and the Powers behind them
In fact you are doing your very best here to divert attention away from them - and just focus upon satan
Helping to hide the evidence - obscure the facts - and twist scripture to do so

I know who you are

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Does not mean we become immortal, only that all things are perfectly restored as before Adam sinned, we even get back the original Garden of Eden.

So – in your New Heaven and Earth man is still mortal – and can die again a mortal death?

[Deleted]

Hmm? I will ask you questions this time

The spirit that lives in man? The immortal soul man has within?

If man has some immortal soul within him, why was it necessary for GOD to come and die for something that is already immortal , such as our soul?

D"2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

2Co 5:6
2Co 5:8
2Co 5:9

You make alot from three contexts of this Greek word, don't you?


2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Both body and this Greek word is used before and after with this verse 7 in the middle, we walk by faith, not by sight?

What is Paul talking about? Wanting to leave his body of flesh? No
He is talking about how the propensities of flesh is controlled by faith in Jesus, and groans for a better way...to live by sight.

I too look forward to walking by sight, not walking by faith. What is faith for?

To control the passions of the body, the aven seeds of the flesh that cause me to sin.
How is this overcome? By faith in the living words of Jesus that overpower the aven propensities, and give me victory of their genetic influences of sin.

And if I sin, it is because of my mind not willing to ask for support from Jesus by faith, instead I allow the flesh and its aven propensities to do my pet sins yet again.

This is why Paul longed to be absent from the body... its burden to do faith all day long, to overcome your sinning propensities that come in your flesh.

You focus on verse 8, but ignore verse 7 and verse 6 has the same words.


D" So – in your New Heaven and Earth man is still mortal – and can die again a mortal death?

R" Yes absolutely

(1) We still eat fruit from tree of life, every month

(this causes us to remain living forever)

(2) We enjoy our living words inside our flesh, without missing letters.

(viruses come every now and than to give the immune system and error checking systems things to do)

D"and can die again a mortal death?

No Nahum says sin shall not arise a second time. If a person ever decides to sin again, poof, they would immediately cease to exist. So the free will to choose, does not exist anymore. Did free will, really ever exist in the first place? I don't think so? When one angel began to murmur with jealousy, where did this ra feeling come from? Bible does not say. Maybe GOD created the free will only after it reared it's ugly head? Who know's?

I only care about living. Living every day in God is a real blessing of joy.

One day at work I was allowed to witness to them about God, when I prayed for this, controlling the tongue is very hard thing to do. Surrender and let God talk, really difficult thing.

I am stunned, amazed at how God leads, even worldly colleagues.

Next day I began talking too much, full of joy, but Scripture says God is in heaven, man is on earth, so let your words be full. Where there is much talking, sin abounds. The glory of God went to my head.

I was sawing a tree branch, and pushed a splinter into my thumb. Oh I pain, why was that?
A voice said, pride comes before a fall.
Oh I said inside, I am talking too much today?
Yes, the conscience spoke back.
Walking home that day, the Lord touched my hip and I fell in agony.
Couldn't walk home, I hobbled home.
Couldn't sleep in so much agony. Got about 3 hours sleep. Than I woke up thinking how do I cancel going to work? I can't walk.
SO I prayed, Lord heal me. I am sorry your powers went to my head.
I stepped out in faith and hobbled to work, allowing more time than normal to get there, and slowly I walked less and less in agony. At work my hip was fine, and I realized what Jacob's trouble was. My hip was touched because I had sinned after a glorious display of God talking through me, I choose to ramble worldly talking afterwards.

Remaining humble and walking with God is a difficult thing to do. It was a lesson I learned.

Jon 3:1 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

I am been trained by the Lord to walk in his power without it going to my head.

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Sin never rises up a second time. Now is the only time we have to deal with sin and our sinning. Now is the day of salvation.

2Co 6:2 .. behold, now is the day of salvation.

Every aven seed in our flesh must die, hence we die daily.

But Dave says "The immortal soul man has within lives" and never dies? SO why does the soul that never dies remain attached to the body that causes the soul to sin? Can a soul sin?


Le 5:1 ¶ And if a soul sin, ... then he shall bear his iniquity.

Wow, so if a soul can sin, than the soul cannot be immortal?

Surely the biology is not the problem, just because the living words have missing letters, does this cause the soul to sin? SO it's the flesh that sins, not the mind? The flesh is at fault, not the mind that sins?

Le 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD,

Wow, a soul can sin? and disobey the Lord, with transgression?

And you ask is it a sin to obey the Lord? Would God ask you to break one of His commandments?

Nu 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance,

Often we sin through ignorance, like eating the wrong food...

D" Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this
And the enemy of Gen 3:15 = THE WORLD – the domain of the archon

R" Where do you get the WORLD as an enemy?

Gen 3:15 is speaking of SEED, not world.

Seeds are the enemy , not world. World is just a place where seeds grow in or live on.

Seeds are different. Seeds are living words from GOD, come with power. Packaged power. Like genes. Codes for living.

aven is a Hebrew word meaning genetic seeds.

Do you even have an idea that Satan can genetically spoil the DNA aven seeds of genetics? Is this a possible notion to you Dave? Does the Hebrew have the word spoilers who spoil?

If I was clever enough to read the living words of life in creatures, and I flick out a single letter here and there, all spoiling havoc would happen.

For example cellulose is a alpha upward chain, but sucrose is a alpha downward chain. (not sure of this, but read it long ago)

You have soluble cellulose and insoluble cellulose? why is that? simple spoiling of code.

Is man capable of spoiling code today? Yes , its called GMO, God Move Over.

Do not mess with the living words implanted in humans for living. If they are messed with, the aven seeds of genetics influence us to sin.

SO who can rescue us from this body of dying? Jesus can.

Praise one who has so much to offer the body, who can renew the body and restore the lost letters we need, to become sinless once again.

Shalom

[Dave]

The spirit that lives in man? The immortal soul man has within?

If man has some immortal soul within him, why was it necessary for GOD to come and die for something that is already immortal , such as our soul?

Remember - מות( H4191 – present tense) תמות׃ (H4191 – future tense) = 2 deaths

Adam and Eve were created immortal – they would still be alive today if they had not disobeyed / sinned / chata
1st Death = we will die as all mortal things do – cows and other beast
2nd Death = Lake of Fire – death of spirit – which is not mortal and never has a mortal death

The mortal body dies – and returns to the dust – mortal (biology – WORLD)
The spirit is released and returns to God (not moral / immortal – spirit)
However – the soul/the spirit/the man must be judged by spirit – by the heavens – by God
Possible outcomes of judgment
1- a Divine Pardon – death in Christ
2- Proportional Judgment – Deeds, works, and fruit – First Resurrection
3- the option of a do-over
4- you never graduated from Proportional Punishment – are still in hell (Hades) and are cast into the Lake of Fire in the end

If man has some immortal soul within him, why was it necessary for GOD to come and die for something that is already immortal , such as our soul?
To save us from the Lake of Fire (which has nothing to do with Mortal biology – it is the death of the immortal spirit)

D" So – in your New Heaven and Earth man is still mortal – and can die again a mortal death?
R" Yes absolutely
D"and can die again a mortal death?
No Nahum says sin shall not arise a second time.
Please make up you mind

Every aven seed in our flesh must die
YES Robert flesh is mortal and it dies a mortal death - DUH

But Dave says "The immortal soul man has within lives" and never dies?
Dave say never dies a mortal death – thus the definition immortal
But that seems to complicated for Robert to grasp

Can a soul sin?
It is the only sin that matters

Le 5:1 ¶ And if a soul sin, ... then he shall bear his iniquity.
Wow, so if a soul can sin, than the soul cannot be immortal?
You deny the spirit and misrepresent the word immortal to fit your paradigm word man

D" Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this
And the enemy of Gen 3:15 = THE WORLD – the domain of the archon
R" Where do you get the WORLD as an enemy?
It is called ( yester ra) – it comes with biology

Gen 3:15 is speaking of SEED, not world.
Seeds are the enemy , not world. World is just a place where seeds grow in or live on.

Jun 1, 2021 15:56:54 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Inside the biology are aven seeds of genetics

May 30, 2021 18:49:20 GMT -5 @robertt said:

The Hebrew word aven, means genetic seed,

Yet – you deny the genetic offspring of the archon

Seeds are different. Seeds are living words from GOD,
Oh – now you change your definitions to fit the doctrine – word man

Do you even have an idea that Satan can genetically spoil the DNA aven seeds of genetics? Is this a possible notion to you Dave? Does the Hebrew have the word spoilers who spoil?

D" Mt 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this
And the enemy of Gen 3:15 = THE WORLD – the domain of the archon
R" Where do you get the WORLD as an enemy?

So confusing – talk talk talk – back and forth – flip flop
Just take whatever view is antagonistic – always oppose – as a true oppose does

I know who you are

[Deleted]

So confusing – talk talk talk – back and forth – flip flop

Sorry you think this way.

D" To save us from the Lake of Fire (which has nothing to do with Mortal biology – it is the death of the immortal spirit)

SO the immortal soul/spirit can only die in the lake of fire?

And the ones who die have 4 options?

1- a Divine Pardon – death in Christ "Some souls get a pardon, so live on"?
2- Proportional Judgment – Deeds, works, and fruit – First Resurrection "Some souls are firstfuits?"
3- the option of a do-over "Some souls who don't make it, get a second chance of a do over?"
4- you never graduated from Proportional Punishment "Some souls remain in Lake of Fire forever"?

Is this correct?


D" Adam and Eve were created immortal – they would still be alive today if they had not disobeyed / sinned / chata

R" But surely Adam and Eve's soul is living somewhere? Arn't they alive? How can a soul that is immortal be lost simply because the soul sinned?

D" 1st Death = we will die as all mortal things do – cows and other beast

SO you mean the biology body dies, but the soul never dies, the soul lives. SO where is Adam today?

D" 2nd Death = Lake of Fire – death of spirit – which is not mortal and never has a mortal death

R" Please explain? death of spirit? what spirit? Are you saying the second death is for killing the soul or spirit, but the first death is only the killing of the biological of body?

SHalom

[Dave]

D" To save us from the Lake of Fire (which has nothing to do with Mortal biology – it is the death of the immortal spirit)

SO the immortal soul/spirit can only die in the lake of fire?
It is not mortal – so it can never die a mortal death – spirit can only be extinguished at the Second Death – the Lake of Fire

And the ones who die have 4 options?

1- a Divine Pardon – death in Christ "Some souls get a pardon, so live on"?
Too bad you doubt this Christian – Yes – these are the First Fruits

2- Proportional Judgment – Deeds, works, and fruit – First Resurrection "Some souls are firstfuits?"
There ya go – twist and misrepresent – academic honesty – seriousness

Pro 24:12, Jer 17:10, Mat 12:36-37, 16:27; Mark 9:49, Rom 2:5-6, 2 Cor 5:10
Too bad you doubt scripture

3- the option of a do-over "Some souls who don't make it, get a second chance of a do over?"
Some innocent never get a chance the first time around

Do we all come to the Lord at the same age?
What if you were finally come to the lord at age 30, but you were killed at age 3
What if Job’s daughters were to finally come to the Lord on their own at age 30
But because of Job’s testing – they were killed at age 14 (?)

Do these people have the same opportunity to repent as a man who lives to be 106?
If your God is Love – and fair – then we all get that equal chance

4- you never graduated from Proportional Punishment "Some souls remain in Lake of Fire forever"?
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Sheol gave up the dead in them. Then they were each judged, each one of them, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the second death—the lake of fire.

Is this correct? – not as you attempted to misrepresent it


D" Adam and Eve were created immortal – they would still be alive today if they had not disobeyed / sinned / chata
On earth as flesh and blood biology (didn’t realize I had to clarify that)
R" But surely Adam and Eve's soul is living somewhere? Arn't they alive?
Alive and well in their ertheral bodies in heaven – not as flesh and blood biology

How can a soul that is immortal be lost simply because the soul sinned?
Because the wages of sin = death without repentance
Why do you doubt scripture?

D" 1st Death = we will die as all mortal things do – cows and other beast
SO you mean the biology body dies, but the soul never dies, the soul lives. SO where is Adam today?

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Alive and well in his ertheral body in heaven – not as flesh and blood biology

[Deleted]

D"Alive and well in his ethereal body in heaven – not as flesh and blood biology

R" I take it this ethereal body Adam has now, allows Adam to talk and walk and speak like Adam did on earth, in his once biological body? I suppose this ethereal body looks like the biological body in shape, but has no biology in it, cannot die for instance, goes through walls, etc., doesn't require oxygen?? 

The first death allows the biological body to extinguish.
The second death allows the soul to extinguish.

These souls that emerge upon dying and leaving their biological bodies, but do not receive a divine pardon, how can they develop a salvation experience if they cannot sin and be saved from missing, while developing their character the second time? And suppose they choose not to accept salvation the second time, there is no way to kill the biological body because they don't have one, and so your system of allowing a second chance is unfair to humans who had a biological body but failed in receiving salvation?

If the soul can be extinguished , at the Lake of Fire, why do you term it immortal? When clearly it is not immortal, but subject to coming to an end?



D" Too bad you doubt this Christian
and
D" There ya go – twist and misrepresent – academic honesty – seriousness

R" Why so unkind in your words, just because I try to fathom your view? My posts here do not mock your view, I respect your view, I just do not accept it. Is that OK? The reason why I don't, is because it does not follow the torah.


D" What if you were finally come to the lord at age 30, but you were killed at age 3?

R" How is that even possible?

How does a 3 yr old soul in an ethereal body in heaven come to experience salvation by age 30, if the soul is no longer tempted of sin and thus requires no further rescuing from sin?

Shalom

[Dave]

D"Alive and well in his ethereal body in heaven – not as flesh and blood biology

R" I take it this ethereal body Adam has now, allows Adam to talk and walk and speak like Adam did on earth, in his once biological body? I suppose this ethereal body looks like the biological body in shape, but has no biology in it, cannot die for instance, goes through walls, etc., doesn't require oxygen??

Mock away – I will just stick to scripture
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Has this answer been revealed? – What does scripture say? – why do you so easily mock scripture?
If you know and understand scripture why ask such a simple question – don’t you know
Haven’t you been studying scripture all these years – or just reading SDA propaganda

The first death allows the biological body to extinguish. (mortal death)
The second death allows the soul to extinguish.
Yes – allows the soul to die – correct
The soul is eternal – and would continue on indefinitely – unless it is allow to commit suicide
Man is given every opportunity to repent – choose God or death – our choice – Free Will
WOW – finally

These souls that emerge upon dying and leaving their biological bodies, but do not receive a divine pardon, how can they develop a salvation experience if they cannot sin and be saved from missing, while developing their character the second time?

Luk 12:45 “But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is taking a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the young slave boys and girls and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know. And he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 That slave who knew his master’s will but did not prepare or act according to his desire will be harshly whipped.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know and did things worthy of a beating will be whipped lightly. From everyone given much, much will be required; and from the one for whom more is provided, all the more they will ask of him.

Rom 2:5 But by your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will pay back each person according to his deeds.
Rom 2:7 To those who by perseverance in doing good are seeking glory, honor, and immortality—eternal life.
Rom 2:8 But to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—wrath and fury.
Rom 2:9 There will be trouble and hardship for every human soul that does evil—to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:10 But there will be glory, honor, and shalom to everyone who does good—to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
God's Judgment and the Law
Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned outside of Torah will also perish outside of Torah, and all who have sinned according to Torah will be judged by Torah.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified.

It is called Proportional Punishment

If the soul can be extinguished , at the Lake of Fire, why do you term it immortal? When clearly it is not immortal, but subject to coming to an end?
Because it is not mortal – DUH
If you want to argue words - buy a dictionary - I doubt you are as dense as you let on
So it just makes you a game player – and some of us don’t think scripture is a game

R" Why so unkind in your words, just because I try to fathom your view?
Because the conversation is only one sided
Attack Christianity each and every day – and refuse to answer questions in return
It is not an academic study
I know who you are

I have challenged you to step up your game
You refuse to answer question –
and what I do not understand – why you think it funny to misrepresent my views back to me

D" What if you were finally come to the lord at age 30, but you were killed at age 3?
R" How is that even possible?
Sure Robert – how is possible small children at the age 2 – in the height of there (yester ra) expression - are killed – or die – how is this possible

What of an unborn fetus – that is aborted – did it have a chance to Jer 1:5?
Oh – I know – you have exceptions in your absolute rule for innocent children
OK – now show me a verse that says anyone here on earth is innocent – you can’t – all have sinned – no one is righteous – no not one

Double speak – contradictory – Catholic garbage

Let’s pretend your name is Job
You have a baby – with spina-bifida – your child will never talk, or walk – your child will be a 100% burden – feed him – change his diaper - wipe his ass – bathe him – brush his teeth – until he finally dies at age 38.
You have a bay – his name is little Jimmy – he was born HIV positive and with leukemia – best hope it that he will live 2 years

Your God is only love – why all this ra? – Did little Jimmy sin and deserve to be sick?

Jewish answer – Gnostic answer – they were pawns in someone else testing
Job’s daughters were innocent bystanders in Jobs affair
Were they sinners – sure – did they deserve to die – sure because of sin
Do all these examples have the same opportunity to repent as a man who lives to be 106?

Your God is Love only – but we all don’t have an equal chance at salvation – Hmmmm?

[Deleted]

D" and what I do not understand – why you think it funny to misrepresent my views back to me

R I did not do such a thing in my last post? How can you say this even? I am simply asking you questions" I wish to know what it is your believe...

D" Mock away – I will just stick to scripture
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Has this answer been revealed? – What does scripture say? – why do you so easily mock scripture?
If you know and understand scripture why ask such a simple question – don’t you know
Haven’t you been studying scripture all these years – or just reading SDA propaganda

R" SO you have a soul in an ethereal body, but you do not know whether it can talk and walk and speak, because such thing is not revealed? Than why invent a term that is not defined and make it a doctrine you cannot defend?

This verse you use, you pluck out of its passage context:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

When a sinner comes to Jesus, we are born again, and this has to be understood we receive this "ethereal body for the soul", you speak of, it cannot come later on after mortal death, because the verse says, the seed of Jesus remains in us forever.

Secondly if the soul is separate from the body, why does Scripture speak of a body of flesh that is condemned and wicked?

Consider some texts for you to consider?

Le 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD

It is very clear the soul can sin. If that is the case the sin has to impact not only the soul but the body as well, because they are a echad unit.

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

This verse says the Father YHWH bruise the SON YWHW, and makes the Son's soul an offering for sin, and that the Father YHWH will see the Son YHWH SEED, the Father YHWH shall prolong the SonYHWH days, and the pleasure of the Father YHWH shall prosper in the Father's hand.

Why must the soul of Jesus die? so His seed can spread to others who die in Him. And this is how we live in Jesus, His seed remains in us, right through into eternity.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:

Jesus SEED remaineth in US.

So you cannot have a mortal death and have the seeds of Jesus removed from the body or the soul, taking up some different ethereal body. It must be the same body we have now on earth, this second birth MUST be the "ethereal body so speak of", the "mystery you show that you don't know" about because Scripture does not say. Actually it does say, only does not answer all your questions.


R"The first death allows the biological body to extinguish. (mortal death)
The second death allows the soul to extinguish.
D" Yes – allows the soul to die – correct
The soul is eternal – and would continue on indefinitely – unless it is allow to commit suicide

Rob is puzzled"

Dave you are confusing to say the least. At first I thought the soul could not die, hence why you use the term extinguish, to suggest something that is not biological, hence not subject to death. But now you throw in more terms

Yes – allows the soul to die , What? How can a soul die if it is not biology and is a gift of God, and therefore immortal? Than you throw in "allow to commit suicide"

Nobody in the Lake of Fire is committing suicide or being killed, nor is GOD wounding them...

It's hard to find a verse that speaks of the Lake of Fire...

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This verse has Jesus feet touching the earth during the THIRD coming.

Notice the new ZION comes down inthe valley on earth where old ruined Jersaluem once stood.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:

Jesus us established as King over the earth.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

There is yet another global war, one last fighting to overtake Zion.
When does this happen and why?

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Devil and his angels and every wicked man, encompass the city to war upon it, taking it over with fierce technological weapons... (and you pose all these creatures are allowed a second chance of salvation? why? look at what they propose to do?)

Notice the way they die

Zec 14:12 the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Their flesh rots off their body while they stand upon their feet. In other words they are rapidly ceasing to exist, not dying in pain, or tortured, maybe some are rewarded for their evil deeds and decay slower than others... but the body rapidly falls away...

Jeff Benner see the word not as plague but striking.

And the fire is not a fire we think of, its God's love that is the fire that consumes.

Than the magma appears and the earth is liquefied while Zion is there, and the earth is created back to what it once was. And all the saints watch.

-------------------

D" It is called Proportional Punishment
R OK I get each is rewarded according to their works.

R" Why so unkind in your words, just because I try to fathom your view?
D" Because the conversation is only one sided
Attack Christianity each and every day – and refuse to answer questions in return
It is not an academic study
I know who you are

I have challenged you to step up your game
You refuse to answer question –
and what I do not understand – why you think it funny to misrepresent my views back to me
R" Our discussions are not one sided, are they? Don't we discuss our views ? I do not attack Christianity? I am a Christian myself, why would I attack salvation in Jesus?

I also try to answer your questions as clearly as I can.

What does NOT an academic study mean?

And why do you always say, "I know who you are"? I am trying to help you understand the torah correctly? And if you think I am not helping you, than we can part company?

Consider this post, and its message

Question: Is the Devil Satan an angel volunteering to be a lying medium for GOD? NO
How can I say this so easily? Look at the last final thing this angel does before He dies in the Lake of Fire?

Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the humans
9 The Devil and His wicked angels and the wicked humans ALL "compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city"
Zec 14:12 And ..all the wicked people fight against Jerusalem;

Re 20:9 and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zec 14:12 Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,

I do not see any second chances here, maybe proportional punishment, but all the sinners are exterminated, including this "so called volunteering angel".

All I see in this passage is the Devil is an OPPOSER who OPPOSES GOD, and even thinks to war over the new Zion and destroy it. Boy talk about cheek.
-----------------------



D"Sure Robert – how is possible small children at the age 2 – in the height of there (yester ra) expression - are killed – or die – how is this possible

What of an unborn fetus – that is aborted – did it have a chance to Jer 1:5?
R Why must you know all the questions, some the Scriptures do not answer, so why doubt and be bothered to ask such question?

How long does it take to experience salvation? I imagine around 7 seconds, to get Jesus seed implanted in your body, so you witness to the fruits of Jesus growing in you. You do not require years and years for this process, but most of us do require it.

Salvation is a process, not an event, it begins as seed, but the seed must also grow in you, to the Father's glory. Only than can you be proved worthy of paradise. The thief on the cross is an example of rapid seed to fruit process salvation happening here.

What about an unborn fetus you say? Hmm? don't know, why couldn't it be allowed to be saved on the basis of the mother, and thus grow up in heaven like the saints? In other words if the Mother is saved, Jesus places the newly born babe in her hands upon the Mother's resurrection? That to me sounds loving and kind.

In Jewish world a child was under it's parents ruling until age 8 or 12, can't remember, so until then the child is saved on the basis of it's parents.

Not sure if there is a text for this idea, but you ask really difficult questions...and I have no real answers... why can't we simply trust God knows best?

D" Your God is only love – why all this ra? – Did little Jimmy sin and deserve to be sick?
R if the real Christians are around Dave, you ask why all this ra? Why not ask God to heal the child? Can God not achieve this as a miracle? "Ask and it shall be given you".

D"Your God is Love only – but we all don’t have an equal chance at salvation – Hmmmm?
R " I feel the pain you speak of Dave, what about my own children I am not allowed to see or speak to. I am sure GOD gives us all an equal chance of salvation...and you will spend 1000 years investigating every jot and tittle of every soul you wish to investigate, you wil find not a single error in God's dealings.

I will investigate the DNA damage done by vaccines, and how ignore this wickedness was upon humans in our time. I feel for the 150 million humans who are vaccinated with COVID who are with spiked protein manufacture sentencing themselves to death. The latest video speaks of this as a fact, the proteins produced kill those vaccinated. Many die from ignorance, many wish to wake up and seek God. I speak up in my work place, and many ignore the warnings. Indeed my friend Eric will receive a second jab soon and sentence himself to an early grave.

The Scriptures are written, but how many read them?

Yesterday in our shed, we spoke of God, they said, God is a myth. I said God is no myth. But such is the tone of my colleagues. We all have a chance of salvation Dave, but many for whatever reason refuse to listen to the voice of God speaking to them via their conscience.

Shalom

[Dave]

R" SO you have a soul in an ethereal body, but you do not know whether it can talk and walk and speak, because such thing is not revealed? Than why invent a term that is not defined and make it a doctrine you cannot defend?

No Robert I will not play your game
If you tell me you know all the in’s and out’s of life in heaven – I will just think you idiotic

if the soul is separate from the body, why does Scripture speak of a body of flesh that is condemned and wicked?
Because the body is flesh and flesh is not getting into heaven

It is very clear the soul can sin
DUH – already answered – it is the only sin that matters

Why must the soul of Jesus die?
And you say you are a Christian – and your satan can kill divinity - rediculas

Dave you are confusing to say the least. At first I thought the soul could not die, hence why you use the term extinguish, to suggest something that is not biological, hence not subject to death. But now you throw in more terms
The soul is spirit – spirit is not mortal biology and does not die a mortal death
Our soul / spirit return to God – but you deny this scripture

In heaven – the soul is subject to judgment – do you deny this Christian
And if you fail judgement what happens you (soul/spirit) – Lake of Fire

Yes – allows the soul to die , What? How can a soul die if it is not biology and is a gift of God, and therefore immortal? Than you throw in "allow to commit suicide"

Does God intend for you to die in the Lake of Fire? I thought your God was love?
He loves you so much – He gave you the choice to live or die – it is all up to you
If you fail to recognized God as your savior – your name will not be in the Book of Life
If you name is not in the Book of life what happens to you – you are punished with death (second death / death of spirit/soul)
Who chooses this death for you – you do! – by failing to repent

Nobody in the Lake of Fire is committing suicide or being killed, nor is GOD wounding them...
Sure – that is why is called the Second Death

-------------------

D" It is called Proportional Punishment
R OK I get each is rewarded according to their works.

I have challenged you to step up your game
You refuse to answer questions –
and what I do not understand – why you think it funny to misrepresent my views back to me
R" Our discussions are not one sided, are they?
You attack all the principles of basic Christianity – while refusing to answer my questions

Don't we discuss our views ?
In all things you lead the conversation back to you sacred cherub chata

I do not attack Christianity? I am a Christian myself, why would I attack salvation in Jesus?
You deny there is One True God
You Deny the divinity of Christ
You claim that your satan put God to death on the cross
You deny the possibility that God can be in two places at the same time
You absolutely deny the spirit and think only in terms of the WORLD
You say your satan has the power to recreate God creation in satan’s image
You say that your pantheon of Gods struggle in battel with your powerfull satan god

D" and what I do not understand – why you think it funny to misrepresent my views back to me
R I did not do such a thing
Question: Is the Devil Satan an angel
Here ya go – I have asked you before to clearify who you are talking about your satan – or the devil
And – instead of answering – you just keep posting this craps so I am unable to answer you
Because you know full well - one is an angel and one is an archon

The Answer – you do not wish to know the difference between the devil and your satan
You work hard so others are confused as who is who - - hide the real enemy

You absolutely deny Paul’s principalities and work hard to twist scripture to hide the real enemy
Your respect for the word of God was very apparent
I have offered to study each and every verse about satan – and we did
In every 23 + 49 verses stan served the Lord and opposed man
Yet - You deny all the scripture – in favor of your satan doctrine

-----------------------

D"Sure Robert – how is possible small children at the age 2 – in the height of there (yester ra) expression - are killed – or die – how is this possible
What of an unborn fetus – that is aborted – did it have a chance to Jer 1:5?
Not sure if there is a text for this idea, but you ask really difficult questions...and I have no real answers... why can't we simply trust God knows best?

What the matter – doesn’t the SDA doctrine cover this? There are gaps and holes in their God inspired doctrine? Oops!

D" Your God is only love – why all this ra? – Did little Jimmy sin and deserve to be sick?
R if the real Christians are around Dave, you ask why all this ra? Why not ask God to heal the child? Can God not achieve this as a miracle? "Ask and it shall be given you".

I see – so you say – real Christians should sit around and pray against God’s Will?
Sounds anti-Christ to me

Yesterday in our shed, we spoke of God, they said, God is a myth. I said God is no myth. But such is the tone of my colleagues.

Why do they think they have this tone? – because of the failed Feel Good Catholic Fallen Angel Halloween myth is bull shit
You still cannot answer – why does little Jimmy have to die?
Your Fell Good Catholic message – is an empty message

You are a terrible witness for Christ –
You spout so much bull shit – I bet no one takes you seriously
If you want to have an effective witness – don’t lie to me
I sure hope you didn’t mention vegetarian sharks

But, I bet every one of them would have a long talk with your UFO neighbor
Because that is the new religion that is replacing God