|
Post by Dave on May 26, 2021 8:39:13 GMT -5
D" Because they say different things altogether ? R" Really? You are saying context dictates the word you use. No – I am just saying that are not the same sentencesJoseph was the governor Gen 42:6 Now Joseph was the ruler over the land. This is just a statement of fact – does not say anything about making Joseph the governor Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. The Pharaoh of Egypt appointed Joseph head leader of the hegemony Now Joseph was the ruler over the land Please explain to me how these two different sentence - written by two different men 3000 yrs apart - must use the same words to say the same thing Let's look at shalliyt, with three Greek words (The verse in question is Gen 42:6), more closely 3) why don't the LXX use kathestemi ?Gen 42:6 – just says Joseph was the Governor – does not say anyone appoint him governor Please show me in gen 42:6 where is says Joseph was appointed/ordained/set in place/made to beIt's really difficult looking up all verses that use arche in the LXX OT.Point and click – takes about 2 seconds 133 matches in 129 verses Archon (male) 550 matches in 500 versesBut this example for shalliyt really demonstrates weird translating skills.So far – all that has happened is that you are completely lost about language and lacking and education you just make up stuff as you go along Do you have a reason why they decided to use arche for shalliyt in Gen 42:6?Is not a governor – the first in rank of his country?If I say Scott Morrison is the leader of your governmental bodyWhy do you need to correct it to say – NO he is the PMWhy does the LXX use exovsiazow for all the other shalliyt contexts, but not for Gen 42:6? And why doesn't the LXX use kathestemi for Genesis 42:6? And since they decide to use arche, what specific Greek meaning do they have in mind?H7989 - shallı̂yṭ -From H7980; potent; concretely a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Gen 42:6 Now Joseph was the ruler over the land. – what is wrong with ruler? Archon = rulerEcc 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten GOVONER men which are in the city. You word choice seem error in this verseΕξουσιαζοντας - G1850 From G1849; to control: - exercise authority upon, bring under the (have) power of. Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath Governor over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. Does your method work here Ecc 10:5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler: Ruler? How do you know for sure that the ruler is a Governor? What if he is a King? What if he is your boss? Or the captain of your club. --------------------- www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=222"Its (i.e. the LXX) critical value is unfortunately greatly impaired by THE CORRUPT STATE OF ITS OWN TEXT." "The Hebrew text from which the LXX translators worked was often divergent from that represented by the Masoretic text, LXX drafted around 250BC Masoretic text (wiki) known as the masorah. It was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries
Who came first? but we need not assume that in cases of difference the Greek is to be preferred. THE LXX TRANSLATORS MADE SOME PALPABLE MISTAKES; THEIR KNOWLEDGE OF HEBREW WAS OFTEN INADEQUATE; THEY OCCASIONALLY INTERPRETED AS WELL AS TRANSLATED, AND THEY SOMETIMES INTRODUCED LOCAL COLOUR." Of course – Ptolomy requested 70 of the best Jewish scholars of their day and at least two from each of the 12 tribes
The argument that the Jews do not know their own language or religion is a common theme with you I just giggle and smile at you attempt to cast doubt upon scriptureThese quotations show that the LXX is totally corrupt and unreliable!Here are the 8 drastic differences 1 Kings 20:38 “ashes upon his face” “bandage over his eyes” Proverbs 8:16 “all the judges of the earth” “all who judge rightly” Isaiah 10:16 “Lord” “LORD” Isaiah 27:2 “vineyard of red wine” “pleasant vineyard” Isaiah 38:14 “LORD” “Lord” Ezekiel 30:18 “Be darkened” “Be held back” Zephaniah 3:15 “see evil” “fear evil” Malachi 1:12 “table of the LORD” “table of the Lord” WOW – there is more difference between a KJV and the ASV or the TLVTHERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND THAT SUCH AN LXX TRANSLATION WAS EVER MADE! Think about this for a moment! YES – think about why you would post such nonsense(Google) Manuscripts of the Septuagint have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and were thought to have been in use among various Jewish sects at the time. -------------- ORIGEN'S VERSION OF THE LXX How can Origin have a version if it didn’t exist – more Robert logicDo you know who origin is – Fascinating read he is – you wouldn’t approve of any of it Soul and spirit stuff that make you uncomfortable What is today accepted as the text of the LXX is nothing more than the text of the LXX Origen presented in his Hexapla. The LXX we have today does not go back to before the time of Origen.OK Mr Church expert – what is the Hexapla – and why did Rome burn every copy they could findThe only LXX that exists today goes back to Origen. There is no other LXX version apart from Origen!YES – thank God for those Egyptian Coptics - they saved everything in its original form
Manuscripts of the Septuagint have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and were thought to have been in use among various Jewish sects at the time.----------------- AKATASTATOS: this means "unstable" and is used in James 1:8. This is a LATE DOUBLE COMPOUND from "alpha privative" + "katastatos", which comes from "kathistemi". The LXX uses this word in Isaiah 54:11. THIS WORD WAS ALSO NOT USED IN THE GREEK OF 250 B.C.R" Is this author saying kathistemi never existed as an older Kione Greek word ? Is this why the LXX never used this word? (google) G2525 - kathistēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NIV) - Blue Letter Biblehttps://www.blueletterbible.org › lang › lexicon › lexicon e. to conduct or bring to a certain place: τινα, Acts 17:15 (2 Chronicles 28:15 for הֵבִיא; Joshua 6:23; 1 Samuel 5:3; Homer, Odyssey 13, 274; Xenophon, an. 4, 8 ... I don’nt know how to verify the date of origin – but Xenophon – I have 3 of his books on my desk in Greek – His “Anabasis” is 2nd year Greek The word kathistēmi is sure in that work written 100 years before th LXX Homer – have only translated small passages – but the word is there – 8th Century BC ---------------- There are many, many more examples of words like these, which are not really found in the Greek of 200 B.C. or earlier; yet they are used in the LXX, which supposedly reflects the Greek of 280 B.C.. But they ARE found in the Koine Greek of the New Testament. So when Origen included words like these with their New Testament meanings in his text of the LXX, it shows that he could, at the very least, not have been copying a text that predated 100 B.C1- Roman Christendom hates Origin – all of Origins works are on the Roman Index including the Heaplan 2- Did Origin invent words? Answer – the agl changed the meanings of many Greek words – same root just a new appreciation or a new added layer of illumination 3- Greek only survived for about 100 years after Christ – changed by force into Romanic Latin Which only survived for about 300 years before becoming Germatic 4- was there any language drift between Homer and the LXX – 650 years – of course 5- was there language drift between 250BC and 50 AD sure – 300 years – of course TRANSLATED FIFTEEN DIFFERENT HEBREW WORDS WITH THE ONE GREEK WORD "HYPOSTASIS"!That was Origen's way of making sure that the idea of "hypostasis" would become well entrenched in the Old Testament! Now think about this for a moment!First define the word - an underlying reality or substance, to that which lacks substance The underlying reality – behind the visible one we can see and touch The only place I know of this word is in a Title The Hypostasis of the Archons – The Reality of the Rulers The underlying reality of the archon Does Hebrew REALLY have "15 different ways" of saying "hypostasis"?Have no Idea – you are the Hebrew guy – you tell me – how many different way are there to say there is a real unseen reality all about us – alive with spiritual forces----------------- www.creationliberty.com/articles/septuagint.php After reading this article, Dave, I am not even sure a LXX even existed.Why are so gullible to doubt – yet so resistant to believe?Courious
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2021 14:33:41 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, I will accept the LXX may have existed before Origen , just reading that many doubt this. However I do find it's a terrible translation... The LXX use G1850 for every use of shalliyt, except 1 verse, Gen 42:6, and they have no right to pluck G746 out of the air for this verse. They shoudl have used G1850 (thanks for finding this word) or G2525, the word kathestimi. So being consistent they should have recorded Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "exercising-authority" G1850 over the land, or Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "set-ruler" G2525 over the land, (OK I modify the word a little) Why do I suggest G2525, because it is found already in Acts 7:10, and In Gen 41:41 Ge 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou. (ie the Greek word kathestimi) 41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. . (ie the Greek word kathestimi) 42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck; 43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt. . (ie the Greek word kathestimi) D" Please show me in gen 42:6 where is says Joseph was appointed/ordained/set in place/made to be.Maybe not in verse 6, but surely in verses 40 to 43. D" So far – all that has happened is that you are completely lost about language and lacking and education you just make up stuff as you go alongR" Really, why so cruel? Why did NOT the translators stick to G1850 for the meaning? Or even better G2525. But instead they were not consistent they used G746 instead? D"Gen 42:6 Now Joseph was the ruler over the land. – what is wrong with ruler? Archon = ruler So shalliyt means "ruler" OK, but now you are agreeing that "arche means ruler" ? The LXX is NOT consistent period. Now you say arche can also mean ruler? first in time, first in rank, first in place... I have no problem with this idea, as the Hebrew words have broad meanings. I remember you saying archons were not rulers over the souls of men? Which meaning do you following now? Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 26, 2021 16:32:16 GMT -5
However I do find it's a terrible translation... Please compare several modern translation side by side - are they word for word - no Do the translators inject current social trends into the text KJV is the home of thee and thou and doust doest Current translations use - he and him and you and I - why? bible.org/article/changes-kjv-1611-illustrationChanges to the KJV since 1611:OMG - all those corrections and changes - Maybe the KJV is not a good translation eitherThe LXX use G1850 for every use of shalliyt, except 1 verse, Gen 42:6, and they have no right to pluck G746 out of the air for this verse. They shoudl have used G1850 (thanks for finding this word) or G2525, the word kathestimi. So being consistent they should have recorded Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "exercising-authority" G1850 over the land, Dose this verse say Joseph was ordained / made / set up / appointed - which is a verb -NO – the verb = “is” “am” be”You want the verse to read - And Joseph was (verb) the "exercising-authority" (verb) The only way this works is for one of those verbs is a (verb-used-as-a-noun = participle or gerund) and that is why you instinctively made you own example a participle = "exercising-authority" Joseph was Governor –or—equally correct- the Governor was Joseph A predicate nominative is the same as A=B therefore B=A or Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "set-ruler" G2525 over the land, (OK I modify the word a little) Dose this verse say Joseph was ordained / made / set up / appointed - which is a verb -YES - the verb = kathistēmi = to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.Ge 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou. (ie the Greek word kathestimi) Gen 41:40 σὺ ἔσῃ ἐπὶ τῷ οἴκῳ μου, καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ στόματί σου ὑπακούσεται πᾶς ὁ λαός μου· πλὴν τὸν θρόνον ὑπερέξω σου ἐγώ. Where – which word to you think is kathestimi – Rom 5:19 = κατεστάθησαν –and- κατασταθήσονται Acts 7:10 = κατέστησεν 41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. . (ie the Greek word kathestimi) καθίστημί σε σήμερον ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. καθίστημί (Verb,Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: first , Number: Singular καθίστημί = I have set (KJV) / I appoint you (TLV) / I have put (YLT) / I have set (OJB) / I have set (ASV)
καθίστημί σε = I have set thee(KJV) / I appoint you (TLV) / I have put thee (YLT) / I have set (OJB) / I have set thee (ASV)
G4594 – σήμερον - genitively now (that is, at present, hitherto): - this (to-) day.
ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. Prepositional phrase – OVER all the land of Egypt
43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt. . (ie the Greek word kathestimi)
κατέστησεν αὐτὸν ἐφ᾿ ὅλης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. κατέστησεν = Verb, Tense: Aorist, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: third [he/she/it], Number: Singular κατέστησεν = he made (KJV) / he appointed (TLV) / to put (YLT) / to set ASV) κατέστησεν αὐτὸν = he made him (KJV) he appointed him (TLV) / to put him (YLY) to set him (ASV)
ἐφ᾿ ὅλης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. Prepositional phrase again – over the whole land of Egypt
D" Please show me in gen 42:6 where is says Joseph was appointed/ordained/set in place/made to be. Maybe not in verse 6, but surely in verses 40 to 43. If the verse does not say it – why do you force it to
D" So far – all that has happened is that you are completely lost about language and lacking and education you just make up stuff as you go along R" Really, why so cruel? I do not mean to be cruel – but you butcher language all to hell – so much so it is hard to believe you are not doing it on purpose just to oppose
Why did NOT the translators stick to G1850 for the meaning? Or even better G2525. But instead they were not consistent they used G746 instead?
Language rule – all sentences only have one verb – only one action word per sentence – or a conjunction is required G1850 is a verb G2525 is a verb The verb in Gen 42:6 = G1510 - εἰμί - First person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic): - am, have been, X it is I
D"Gen 42:6 Now Joseph was the ruler over the land. – what is wrong with ruler? Archon = ruler So shalliyt means "ruler" OK, but now you are agreeing that "arche means ruler" ? First in time / place or order / or rank DUH -
I remember you saying archons were not rulers over the souls of men? Which meaning do you following now? No I said they do not rule man – as in force man to sin – or decided for man to sin The archon are the rulers of this WORLD – it is their Kingdom / domain
Scott Morison is a ruler If I come to Australia – does Scott Morrison change the way I think? He can make noise in my ear – it is up to me to listen and act on his advice
If I listen to him and follow his advice - it it his fault when I sin? If I say - not my fault Scott Morison said I should do it - it is only a poor excuse a poor attempt to pass the blame to another
It is not the serpent fault that Eve sinned - the fault lies with EVE no one else
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 5:08:34 GMT -5
Dave Gen 41:41 εἶπεν δὲ Φαραω τῷ Ιωσηφ ἰδοὺ καθίστημί σε σήμερον ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου This verse does indeed have G2525 in it, kathestemi, but you didn't say so? D" If the verse does not say it – why do you force it to R" Dave why did the LXX people, translate shalliyt as G1850 (exercizing-authority) rather than (set-ruler) G2525, as the book of Acts 7:10 suggest? And than even more silly throw in a arche word when it's not needed at all? I did an analysis of the Gen 41: 6 , it has no verb? only the masculine He singular. There is no reason to add arche to this verse, it's plain wrong. SO the LXX decided to add a verb, Joseph (he was) which is NOT in the Hebrew. There is nothing wrong saying "Joseph He master upon land" (the noun is used as a verb) Or "Joseph He "set-ruler" upon land" (verb used) D" Language rule – all sentences only have one verb – only one action word per sentence – or a conjunction is required G1850 is a verb G2525 is a verb The verb in Gen 42:6 = G1510 - εἰμί - First person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic): - am, have been, X it is IR " Yes, the Greek throws in a verb, but the Hebrew does not have a verb??? The passage is speaking of kathestemi, to "establish-ruler" . Why does the word have to be either noun or verb, why can't it be both verb and noun? "ie ruler or ruling" the idea is the same isn't it? Why does the LXX use exercising authority for shalliyt rather than use as Jeff suggests "master" or as I suggest "ruler" or "set-ruler", I would use both verb or noun, regardless of the sentence grammar. D "but you butcher language all to hell – so much so it is hard to believe you are not doing it on purpose just to opposeR" No Dave, when I read Jeff's ideas of Hebrew, I expect translators to follow his ideas, Jeff does not follow his own conclusions as I follow them, so I can go out on a limb, I am not following traditional grammar or translators... I am learning what Jeff is saying about the Hebrew. Sure I butcher grammar rules, what rules did God teach Adam when He gave Adam Hebrew? Jeff alludes to a total new idea of understanding ancient hebrew, so I am playing outside the square. Personally the LXX translation is wrong. Shalliyt means "set-ruler" ie G2525 is a close match, but hey I am no expert, I saw Acts 7:10 and its a good cross reference, as is Gen 41:41, also has G2525 in it. SO Gen 42:6 should say So Joseph was "set-as-a-ruler" over the land, This establishes shalliyt as establishing a ruler, do other verses also suggest this idea? Ec 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten "set-rulers" which are in the city. Ec 8:8 No man is "set-as-a-ruler" over the spirit Ec 10:5 which proceedeth from the set-rulers: G2525 and H7989 match meanings OK. Thanks for bearing with me Dave. It was a good study into LXX translations. Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 27, 2021 8:43:37 GMT -5
Gen 41:41 εἶπεν δὲ Φαραω τῷ Ιωσηφ ἰδοὺ καθίστημί σε σήμερον ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου This verse does indeed have G2525 in it, kathestemi, but you didn't say so?What?41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. . (ie the Greek word kathestimi) καθίστημί σε σήμερον ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. καθίστημί (Verb,Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: first , Number: Singular καθίστημί = I have set (KJV) / I appoint you (TLV) / I have put (YLT) / I have set (OJB) / I have set (ASV)
καθίστημί σε = I have set thee(KJV) / I appoint you (TLV) / I have put thee (YLT) / I have set (OJB) / I have set thee (ASV)
G4594 – σήμερον - genitively now (that is, at present, hitherto): - this (to-) day.
ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. Prepositional phrase – OVER all the land of Egypt D"If the verse does not say it – why do you force it toR" Dave why did the LXX people, translate shalliyt as G1850 (exercizing-authority) rather than (set-ruler) G2525, as the book of Acts 7:10 suggest?shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. First Καθίστημι DOES NOT MEAN (set-ruler) it only mean to set, to establish, to designate, to appoint These two words have absolutely nothing to do with each other – they are not interchangeableAnd than even more silly throw in a arche word when it's not needed at all?shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Archon – (a noun) first in rank -of warriors / government / men / power / or rule I did an analysis of the Gen 41: 6 , it has no verb? only the masculine He singular.Ha ha ha giggle giggleGen 41:6 (KJV) And, behold, seven thin ears and blasted with the east wind sprung up after them. H6779 – צָמַח - A primitive root; to sprout (transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively): - bear, bring forth, (cause to, make to) bud (forth), (cause to, make to) grow (again, up), (cause to) spring (forth, up). (LXX) = ανεφυοντο SO the LXX decided to add a verb, Joseph (he was) which is NOT in the Hebrew. There is nothing wrong saying "Joseph He master upon land" (the noun is used as a verb)You are correct – if a Greek student translated Gen 42:6 as “Joseph, the Governor of the land, … “ He would be correctA predicate nominative is like a=b or b=a, it is a statement of fact I am Dave / Dave I am / Dave = me / "Joseph He "set-ruler" upon land" (verb used)If you are trying to say – Joseph Καθίστημι the land The sentence would translate as – Joseph appointed the land / Joseph set the land in place / Joseph designated the landSorry Robert – you are not even close with your argument The passage is speaking of kathestemi, to "establish-ruler" . Why does the word have to be either noun or verb, why can't it be both verb and noun? "ie ruler or ruling" the idea is the same isn't it?1- kathestemi is not written in Gen 42:6 – in Hebrew or Greek2- kathestemi DOES NOT MEAN "establish-ruler" – it only means to establish / to set in place / to appoint / to ordain D"but you butcher language all to hell – so much so it is hard to believe you are not doing it on purpose just to oppose R" No Dave - Jeff alludes to a total new idea of understanding ancient hebrew, so I am playing outside the square. So far outside you just make up stuffSO Gen 42:6 should say So Joseph was "set-as-a-ruler" over the land,Where do you get “set as” ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Joseph was ruler over the land – Joseph was archon over the land - Joseph was Governor over the land This establishes shalliyt as establishing a ruler, do other verses also suggest this idea? Where do you get ESTABLISHED from this sentence G2525 and H7989 match meanings OK.NOT EVEN CLOSE!These two words have absolutely nothing to do with each other – they are not interchangeableshalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. Thanks for bearing with me Dave. It was a good study into LXX translations.EXCEPT you learnt nothing – and still hold to the same error D"- you butcher language all to hell – so much so it is hard to believe you are not doing it on purpose just to oppose Learn to translate - then play your word gamesRom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made ( established / ordained / designated / appointed) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (established / ordained / designated / appointed) righteous. You were wrong before - and you are still wrong nowBut you semed to be ruled by some force that opposes - you and your ruler - who rules all men I know who you are
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 14:27:27 GMT -5
OK I had a look at Bible Hub and notice they do not use "rule" as does the KJV at times, instead they use as you imply "appoint or establish".... OK
SO now we have a problem don't we?
Acts 7:10 is more or less quoting Gen 42:6 , or the passage of Gen 41:41 and Gen 42:6. Acts 7:10 lumps the passage of word meanings into a sentence.
But it is still a cross reference, the only reference that links shalliyt to a Greek word.
Pharoah "established" Joseph as a "ruler"
The Gen 41:41 has the term "Established" (G2525) which you still do not acknowledge. And Gen 42:6 has the term "shallyit" meaning ruler (Jeff uses master).
Sure I get the two words are different if your nit picky, but the idea of establish, is to establish a person as a ruler. Duh.
Is there any other reason to establish?
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was established over the land, //but the establish action is not defined is it??
Ec 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten establishments which are in the city ???bit weird
Ec 8:8 No man can establish the spirit to retain the spirit; ???bit weird
Ec 10:5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from (those) established. ???bit weird
Mt 24:45 whom his lord hath established over his household,
Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall establish over all his goods.
Lu 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who established me a judge or a divider over you?
Ac 6:3 the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may establish over this business.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were established as sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be established as righteous.
Not a single clue this establishing is accomplished??
Tit 1:5 and establish elders in every city, //So what does the establishing do? So we come to church and lo and behold we have elders there, but they do nothing to the people in the church, only established?? Don't the elders rule over the people in the church?
Heb 7:28 For the law established men high priests, So what does law do, only establish rules, but not rule the humans who follow those rules??
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so established the tongue among our members, //So what does the establishing do? nothing// just a tongue?
Looking at all the contexts of this word across the OT and NT Dave, the word "Establish" lacks a reason for it's action. You have weakened it's meaning.
SO Shalliyt means "Establish"?
Not master?
Or the cross reference is wrong?
In Jeff Benner ancient Hebrew reads "The Pressed Authority Active Covers" not really doing the meaning justice? "The Pressed Authority Active" is more like a ruler covering you with His establishment?
Just as laws from GOD also rule over you, if you allow yourself to agree with those laws...
SO really The Pressed Authority Active covers, is really about establishing rulers that rule over you, not necessarily kings, captains or archons, but these are included as well.
Anyhow that is why I use this as my chosen word meaning, because of the cross reference of Gen 41:41 and Geb 42:6 to Acts 7:10, making shalliyt more like establishing something as to rule. (hence my term "set-ruler" or "establish-to-rule" )
In a fundamental way that is what establishing is all about, it rules over you (covers).
D" You were wrong before - and you are still wrong now But you semed to be ruled by some force that opposes - you and your ruler - who rules all men
R" But you have weaken the term to mean nothing but establishing.
Establish what? And action that leads nowhere, but must be spelled out for you?
establish a judge ?
establish business ? context of HS/ so HS only establishes things in us, not rules over us??
establish sinners? so there is nothing that rules over sinners?
Jesus establishes us as righteous, so Jesus never rules over us? not a master, but just one who is established in us?
You implied meaning Dave, weakens the applications of this word in it's sentences. But that is your choice.
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 27, 2021 23:02:46 GMT -5
OK I had a look at Bible Hub and notice they do not use "rule" as does the KJV at times, instead they use as you imply "appoint or establish".... OK
SO now we have a problem don't we? - you have the problem
Acts 7:10 is more or less quoting Gen 42:6 , or the passage of Gen 41:41 and Gen 42:6. Acts 7:10 lumps the passage of word meanings into a sentence.
But it is still a cross reference, the only reference that links shalliyt to a Greek word.
Pharoah "established" Joseph as a "ruler"
The Gen 41:41 has the term "Established" (G2525) which you still do not acknowledge.
And Gen 42:6 has the term "shallyit" meaning ruler (Jeff uses master).
Sure I get the two words are different if your nit picky, but the idea of establish, is to establish a person as a ruler. Duh. Is there any other reason to establish?
Not just establish - G2525 - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Verb →Direct Object
Act 17:15 (KJV) And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: Act 17:15 (TLV) Those escorting Paul brought him as far as Athens. Act 17:15 (YLT) And those conducting Paul, brought him unto Athens, Act 17:15 But they that conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens:
Heb 8:3 (KJV) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: Heb 8:3 (TLV) For every kohen gadol is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, Heb 8:3 for every chief priest to offer both gifts and sacrifices is appointed, Heb 8:3 (ASV) For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices:
Jas 4:4 (KJV) …a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Jas 4:4 (TLV) … a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Jas 4:4 (YLT) … a friend of the world, an enemy of God he is set. Jas 4:4 (ASV) … a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.
Let look at your examples Verb→Direct Object
Talking Greek LXX now not Herbrew Ge 42:6 And Joseph was established over the land, //but the establish action is not defined is it?? The verb G2525 is not present in Gen 42:6 – stop trying to slip it in Ge 42:6 And Joseph was Governors Ge 42:6 And Joseph was archon Ge 42:6 And Joseph was shallı̂yṭ
Ec 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten establishments which are in the city ???bit weird Verb = H5810 A primitive root; to be stout DO = H2450 - wise
Adverbial phrase = more than ten establishments Verb = G5228 - = DO a verb as a noun - participle = G1850 εξουσιαζοντας
Verb = H1961 - A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be DO = establishments = H7989 -shallı̂yṭ
Ec 8:8 No man can establish the spirit to retain the spirit; ???bit weird Ecc 8:8 (KJV) There is no man that hath power over the spirit Ecc 8:8 (TLV) No one has authority over the wind to restrain it, Ecc 8:8 (YLT) There is no man ruling over the spirit to restrain the spirit, Ecc 8:8 (ASV) There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit;
Interesting sentence structure
Verb = H369 – אַיִן - As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; There is no / none (verb) DO – man (comma) that hath power (noun) (comma) to retain the spirit (prep phrase)
LXX = Ecc 8:8 οὐκ ἔστιν ἄνθρωπος ἐξουσιάζων Verb = G1510 - εἰμί - I exist (used only when emphatic): - I am DO = ἄνθρωπος ἐξουσιάζων (man having authority) + Prep phrase to retain the spirit
Ec 10:5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from (those) established. ???bit weird There is an evil - is the sentence – the verb = is the DO = evil which I have seen under the sun = a prepositional phrase as an error = a prepositional phrase which proceedeth from (those) established. = a prepositional phrase
proceedeth = the verb within the phrase = H7862 / G1831 DO – within the phrase = G1850 in the form of a participle (verb being used as a noun) G1850 - Tense: Present, Voice: Active, Mood: Participle, Case: Accusative (direct object; motion toward; time: "how long"), Number: Plural, Gender: Feminine
Mt 24:45 whom his lord hath established over his household, Mat 24:45 Τίς ἄρα ἐστὶν ὁ πιστὸς δοῦλος καὶ φρόνιμος, ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τῆς
ὃν κατέστησεν ὁ κύριος – whom – was established/designated/appointed - G2962 = κύριος G2962 = κύριος = kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
But wait – whay is ὃν (whom) the subject in the accusative case And the DO - ὁ κύριος – in nominative Answer – this is a predicate nominative a=b or b=a
Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall establish over all his goods. ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι ἐπὶ πᾶσι τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν αὐτοῦ καταστήσει αὐτόν
Verb – λέγω – I say DO = G4771 – σύ – You in the dative case = I say to you
G5224 - ὑπάρχοντα - Neuter plural of present participle active of G5225 as noun; things extant or in hand, that is, property or possessions: - Καταστήσει – he shall establish – he shall appoint – he shall designate DO = αὐτόν – yours he shall establish – he shall appoint – he shall designate – all of your stuff yours
Lu 12:14 And he said unto him, Man, who established me a judge or a divider over you? Luk 12:14 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἄνθρωπε, τίς με κατέστη σε δικαστήν ἢ μεριστὴν ἐφ᾿ ὑμᾶς;
Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you? Verb within the phrase = G2525 – καθίστημι = who made DO = σε = you
Not a single clue this establishing is accomplished??
Tit 1:5 and establish elders in every city, Don't the elders rule over the people in the church? Heb 7:28 For the law established men high priests, So what does law do, only establish rules, but not rule the humans who follow those rules??
What if you were designated / appointed / set in place as the janitor Would you still rule over the church
Looking at all the contexts of this word across the OT and NT Dave, the word "Establish" lacks a reason for it's action. You have weakened it's meaning. SO Shalliyt means "Establish"? Not master? Who said this Robert shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Anyhow that is why I use this as my chosen word meaning, because of the cross reference of Gen 41:41 and Geb 42:6 to Acts 7:10, making shalliyt more like establishing something as to rule. (hence my term "set-ruler" or "establish-to-rule" ) D" You were wrong before - and you are still wrong now But you semed to be ruled by some force that opposes - you and your ruler - who rules all men
R" But you have weaken the term to mean nothing but establishing. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Establish what? And action that leads nowhere, but must be spelled out for you? YES Robert you are correct – the Verb requires a Direct Object And I illuminated each DO for you
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 4:33:17 GMT -5
Happy Shabbat Dave
I would say you are nit picking and too detailed in your exactness.
You say "Act 17:15 (KJV) And they that conducted Paul "
Is this not the same idea as authorities ruling over Paul's free will and escorting Him?
I use the term broadly... "Act 17:15 (KJV) And they that ruled Paul "
You say "Heb 8:3 (KJV) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices:
I suppose ruling over and offering of gifts is a bit weird, but remember not ordinary people coudl offer gifts and sacrifices in the temple...Only priests could rule over the gifts and sacrifices...
"Heb 8:3 (KJV) For every high priest is "(a) ruler (over)" offer gifts and sacrifices:
You say "Jas 4:4 (TLV) … a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
The word "establish or make" is weak
"Jas 4:4 (TLV) … a friend of the world rules as an enemy of God.
Now the meaning is much stronger, and broader in meaning.
I don't get why you cannot accept this basic meaning for G2525, which seems to the same meaning as Kathestemi. Surely you agree kathestemi is in Gen 41:41, so the meaning is already in the passage.
Pharoah begins to establish Joseph (kathestemi) and later in Gen 42:6 Joeseph becomes shalliyt, a ruler over the land.
The verb grammar Technics aside, can't you see the basic idea I am presenting here, and why?
Ec 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten establishments which are in the city
Now in Hebrew shalliyt is a noun. But the Greek equivalent kathestemi is a verb?
The "men" is assumed in this verse, the the direct object is not here?
R" SO Shalliyt means "Establish"? Not master? D" Who said this Robert
R"What so you disagree now with the cross reference?
Acts 7:10 and Gen 42:6 with Gen 41:41 ?
Shalliyt certainly doesn't mean arche, and it doesn't mean exercising authority, although the LXX did use this many times on the OT, but not in the NT.
Comments please?
D" YES Robert you are correct – the Verb requires a Direct Object
Is this so for every case Dave?
D" What if you were designated / appointed / set in place as the janitor Would you still rule over the church
R" A lowly janitor is given ruler powers to rule his little world, do you have a problem with that?
Comment on the difference between all these Greek words meaning to rule
G4165 to rule G757 to rule G2515 exercising authority to rule G746 to rule G2583 to rule G1018 to rule G4291 to rule G2233 to rule G4165 to rule
How many exist in the OT as Hebrew?
04475. hlvmm memshalah, to rule 04910. lvm mashal, to rule 07287. hdr radah, to rule by treading on 07980. jlv shalat, to rule 08323. rrs sarar, to rule 04623. ruem ma`tsar, to rule
Probably just as many.
How are these different to shalliyt as a ruler, or your arche meaning to rule?
D" Not just establish - G2525 - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set
R"I see, so I am not learned and you must interpret the verse for me?
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ?
ANd than explain how one man's sin makes us sinners?
Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 28, 2021 6:04:35 GMT -5
I would say you are nit picking and too detailed in your exactness. I would say you just make up stuff without any respect for grammar
You say "Act 17:15 (KJV) And they that conducted Paul " No I did not – the translators of the (ASV) did The translators of the (TLV) said”escorting” Young said - conducting Bishops Bible says - that guyded (OJB) says - escorting
Is this not the same idea as authorities ruling over Paul's free will and escorting Him? Correct – no translator has ever had your view – except you
I don't get why you cannot accept this basic meaning for G2525, which seems to the same meaning as Kathestemi. Surely you agree kathestemi is in Gen 41:41, so the meaning is already in the passage.
shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
These two words have nothing to do with one another – they are not interchangeable
later in Gen 42:6 Joeseph becomes shalliyt, a ruler over the land. No where in Gen 42:6 does the sentence suggest that Joseph was appointed/established ruler It simply says – Joseph was the ruler
The verb grammar Technics aside, can't you see the basic idea I am presenting here, and why? NO – you are lost and confused – mocking scripture twisting it to whatever you want it to say
Ec 7:19 Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten establishments which are in the city Now in Hebrew shalliyt is a noun. But the Greek equivalent kathestemi is a verb? No it is not – you just keep saying it does not make it true shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
These two words have nothing to do with one another – they are not interchangeable
Shalliyt certainly doesn't mean arche, and it doesn't mean exercising authority, although the LXX did use this many times on the OT, but not in the NT. Comments please? shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Archon – (a noun) first in rank -of warriors / government / men / power / or rule
How are these different to shalliyt as a ruler, or your arche meaning to rule? Archon is not a verb (to rule) it is a noun Archon – (a noun) first in rank -of warriors / government / men / power / or rule
R"I see, so I am not learned and you must interpret the verse for me? Not when it comes to language – you are NOT
You violate all the basic rules of translation and grammar with zero respect for syntax You are unable to add and subtract yet think yourself a proffessor of algebra (simile) You really need to learn to trasnlate - if you are going to play translation games with the word of God
You just invent words and put them in sentences where they do not exist What reverence and respect you have for the word of God
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ? Every one of them - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set / establish
ANd than explain how one man's sin makes us sinners? I though you claimed to be a Christian and do not grasp the basic precept – courious
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is called the choice of disobedience / missing / sinning / chatah - DUH
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2021 17:36:22 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, sorry you do not even agree to my presentation even a little. So now it's your turn to be the scholar and you show me. archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n159/mode/2upThis link takes you to the LXX, and you scroll to Gen 41:41, and look at the passage up to Gen 42:6. There you will see kathestemi, as well as arche and the word shalliyt in this passage. Next you go to Acts 7:10 and read through the same Textus receptus in Greek, and you find the word kathestemi and another Greek word used for governor. You ask your self, the writer is quoting Genesis 41 through to 42, and lumping this whole process into a few words. Ac 7:10 And <kai> delivered <exaireo> him <autos> out of <ek> all <pas> his <autos> afflictions <thlipsis>, and <kai> gave <didomi> him <autos> favour <charis> and <kai> wisdom <sophia> in the sight <enantion> of Pharaoh <Pharao> king <basileus> of Egypt <Aiguptos>; and <kai> he made <kathistemi> him <autos> governor <hegeomai> over <epi> Egypt <Aiguptos> The Greek words are interlinear show among the KJV words. The translators chose kathistemi and hegeomai for this Genesis quoting of 41:41 through to 42:6 Ge 42:6 And Joseph <Yowceph> was the governor <shalliyt> over the land <'erets>, Joseph is quoted in verse 9, and the whole story is lumped as a memory, not directing quoting the verse word for word. This is the only cross reference clue we have for linking G2525 to any Hebrew word. So what word in Hebrew is equivalent to G2525? That is my question for you. I asked the www for a equivalent for G2525, and this is what I got:- Strong #: 622 ‑ אָסַף (aw‑saf'); 935 ‑ בּוֹא (bo); 2388 ‑ חָזַק (khaw‑zak'); 3320 ‑ יָצַב (yaw‑tsab'); 3559 ‑ כּוּן (koon); 4427 ‑ מָלַךְ (maw‑lak'); 4487 ‑ מָנָה (maw‑naw'); 4886 ‑ מָשַׁח (maw‑shakh'); 4911 ‑ מָשַׁל (maw‑shal'); 4950 ‑ מִשְׁקָע (mish‑kaw'); 5117 ‑ נוּחַ (noo'‑akh); 5258 ‑ נָסַךְ (naw‑sak'); 5324 ‑ נָצַב (naw‑tsab'); 5414 ‑ נָתַן (naw‑than'); 5975 ‑ עָמַד (aw‑mad'); 6485 ‑ פָּקַד (paw‑kad'); 6680 ‑ צָוָה (tsaw‑vaw'); 6750 ‑ צָלַל (tsaw‑lal'); 6965 ‑ קוּם (koom); 7725 ‑ שׁוּב (shoob); 7760 ‑ שִׂים (soom, seem); 7896 ‑ שִׁית (sheeth); 7981 ‑ שְׁלֵט (shel‑ate'); Something ridiculous and would take hours to confirm. And the second thing you can do for me as a scholar D" shalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
These two words have nothing to do with one another – they are not interchangeableRob " Stop making words have so many meanings. Make the meanings into one broad basic meaning, and stick to that. I do not tolerate polysemy. Stick to my principles which come from Jeff Benner. All you are doing is quoting Strong's. Be a scholar and quote your own research. Jeff Benner says polysemy while does exist, should not exist in the original Hebrew. So using this principle decide what single basic meanings in English are these words. You are the scholar and do this for me. Thanks. The other principle is Hebrew does not have verbs or nouns, they have instead actions not complete (verbs) and actions complete (nouns). Jeff says even the word earth "ets" is really an action, (verb), and this principle really throws out conservative thinking, but I embrace this also. so I tried to embrace katestemi into a single word meaning "establish-one-as ruler" which requires the verb becoming a noun, or even a simpler notion "to-rule", which is where the action is heading. Perhaps one could use "to-control" controlling things is the same as ruling things. As for shalliyt, the "pressed authority active covers" is a picture of some person covering you with his exercising authority, which I note the LXX translators use for shalliyt for other verses, but refused to do this for Gen 42:6, but instead chose arche? D" You violate all the basic rules of translation and grammar with zero respect for syntaxR correct I do. These principles do in fact violate grammar and traditions of men translating using imposed grammar tools. Can we be sure such existed in Eden with Edenic Hebrew? D" Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ? Every one of them - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set / establishR Again Dave let me repeat myself clearly, I want a single English word for kathestemi please, no polysemy... You once decided on the word "established". This is a verb. OK. And what Hebrew word does G2525 represent? If its not shalliyt, what is it? Thanks for your help too. Shalom Shabbat
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 29, 2021 0:50:50 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, sorry you do not even agree to my presentation even a little. So now it's your turn to be the scholar and you show me. archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n159/mode/2up This link takes you to the LXX, and you scroll to Gen 41:41, OK word for word it is the same I have been posting hereGen 41:41 εἶπεν δὲ Φαραω τῷ Ιωσηφ Ἰδοὺ καθίστημί σε σήμερον ἐπὶ πάσης γῆς Αἰγύπτου. and look at the passage up to Gen 42:6.OK word for word it is the same I have been posting hereGen 42:6 Ιωσηφ δὲ ἦν ἄρχων τῆς γῆς, οὗτος ἐπώλει παντὶ τῷ λαῷ τῆς γῆς· ἐλθόντες δὲ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ Ιωσηφ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν. There you will see kathestemi, as well as arche and the word shalliyt in this passage.There you will see kathestemi – in one sentenceas well as arche – in the other sentenceand the word shallot – In the Hebrew - translated to archon by the LXX translators OK all of this is trueNext you go to Acts 7:10 and read through the same Textus receptus in Greek, and you find the word kathestemi and another Greek word used for governor.Act 7:10 καὶ ἐξείλετο αὐτὸν ἐκ πασῶν τῶν θλίψεων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ χάριν καὶ σοφίαν ἐναντίον Φαραὼ βασιλέως Αἰγύπτου, καὶ κατέστησεν αὐτὸν ἡγούμενον ἐπ᾿ Αἴγυπτον καὶ ὅλον τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ. The Greek words are interlinear show among the KJV words. The translators chose kathistemi and hegeomai for this Genesis quoting of 41:41 through to 42:6NO – the authors of the agl did – Luke – the author of Acts didGe 42:6 And Joseph <Yowceph> was the governor <shalliyt> over the land <'erets>, This is a stue statementThis is the only cross reference clue we have for linking G2525 to any Hebrew word. So what word in Hebrew is equivalent to G2525? That is my question for you.
I asked the www for a equivalent for G2525, and this is what I got:-
Strong #: 622 ‑ אָסַף (aw‑saf'); 935 ‑ בּוֹא (bo); 2388 ‑ חָזַק (khaw‑zak'); 3320 ‑ יָצַב (yaw‑tsab'); 3559 ‑ כּוּן (koon); 4427 ‑ מָלַךְ (maw‑lak'); 4487 ‑ מָנָה (maw‑naw'); 4886 ‑ מָשַׁח (maw‑shakh'); 4911 ‑ מָשַׁל (maw‑shal'); 4950 ‑ מִשְׁקָע (mish‑kaw'); 5117 ‑ נוּחַ (noo'‑akh); 5258 ‑ נָסַךְ (naw‑sak'); 5324 ‑ נָצַב (naw‑tsab'); 5414 ‑ נָתַן (naw‑than'); 5975 ‑ עָמַד (aw‑mad'); 6485 ‑ פָּקַד (paw‑kad'); 6680 ‑ צָוָה (tsaw‑vaw'); 6750 ‑ צָלַל (tsaw‑lal'); 6965 ‑ קוּם (koom); 7725 ‑ שׁוּב (shoob); 7760 ‑ שִׂים (soom, seem); 7896 ‑ שִׁית (sheeth); 7981 ‑ שְׁלֵט (shel‑ate');
Something ridiculous and would take hours to confirm. YES – you are correct – you play a ridicules gameYou have no respect for the inspired word of God – accusing the authors of the agl of error And the second thing you can do for me as a scholarshalliyt – (a noun) a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler. Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. These two words have nothing to do with one another – they are not interchangeable Rob " Stop making words have so many meanings. Hey buddy boy – all I am doing is quoting a dictionary I do not have to resort to making things up Jeff Benner says polysemy while does exist, should not exist in the original Hebrew.And here you are applying that rule to Greek and English - curiousSo using this principle decide what single basic meanings in English are these words. You are the scholar and do this for me. Thanks.
I tried to embrace katestemi into a single word meaning "establish-one-as ruler" which requires the verb becoming a noun, or even a simpler notion "to-rule", which is where the action is heading. Perhaps one could use "to-control" controlling things is the same as ruling things.D" You violate all the basic rules of translation and grammar with zero respect for syntaxR correct I do. These principles do in fact violate grammar and traditions of men translating using imposed grammar toolsAnd just how do you have your precious received text with any translation involved? And not just one translation – but a copulation of many agl texts that dis not always agree (Marginal readings)D" Which meaning of kathestemi is intended here ? Every one of them - to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set / establish
R Again Dave let me repeat myself clearly, I want a single English word for kathestemi please, no polysemy...You first – please define these words – only using one word Apprise impetuous adumbrate I tried to embrace katestemi into a single word meaning "establish-one-as ruler" which requires the verb becoming a noun, or even a simpler notion "to-rule",One word huh? – It’s you game with your rulesAnd what Hebrew word does G2525 represent? If its not shalliyt, what is it?Your verse for G2525Gen 41:41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set (H5414) thee over all the land of Egypt. H5414 - A primitive root; to give, used with great latitude of application (put, make, etc.): - add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ([healed]), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit … Blah blah blah G2525 - Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. Is this the one and only Hebrew word used? – I didn’t look To be fair – I did an e-sword search for the G2525 in the same spelling as Gen 41:41 1Ma 11:57 And young Antiochus wrote vnto Ionathas, saying: I confirme thee in thy pristhood, and make thee ruler of foure countreys, that thou mayst be a friende of the kinges. 1Ma 11:57 καὶ ἔγραψεν Ἀντίοχος ὁ νεώτερος Ιωναθη λέγων Ἵστημί σοι τὴν ἀρχιερωσύνην καὶ καθίστημί σε ἐπὶ τῶν τεσσάρων νομῶν καὶ εἶναί σε τῶν φίλων τοῦ βασιλέως. Gen 41:41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. NOTICE THISIn each verse the verb καθίστημί always needs a DO It is an action verb – it does not stand alone Gen 41:41 … καθίστημί σε … = (KJV) I have set → YOU → over all the land (prep phrase) 1Ma 11:57 … καθίστημί σε …= (Bishops) make → YOU → ruler (noun DO) Act 17:15 … καθιστῶντες → τὸν Παῦλον = conducted → Mr. Paul → unto Athens (prep phrase) Heb 8:3 … καθίσταται· ὅθεν → ἀναγκαῖον ἔχειν τι = is ordained → to offer (pre phrase) R Again Dave let me repeat myself clearly, I want a single English word for kathestemi please, no polysemy... G2525 - Καθίστημι – (a verb) to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. I Καθίστημι → YOU → (insert prepositional phrase here) I designate → YOU → (to learn to translate (if you are going to preach it) (to the world) (at large) (va the internet) (prepositional phrases) I ordained → YOU → (over the congregation) I establish → YOU → (to be a pain in the ass) Which constitutes → YOU → (to be a friend) Therefore I appoint → YOU → (to wash the dishes)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 16:41:13 GMT -5
Unfortunately Jeff Benner does not link kathestemi to a Hebrew word equivalent. Not enough contexts (22) for him, so this is left out. Neither are you willing. But I did ask. I notice LXX using kathestemi in Gen 41:41 for the Hebrew word H5414 nathan, as Jeff has this word meaning "give", a word of wide meanings. Somehow I don't think so, The LXX is not translating that well for kathestemi. biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2525.htmWay too complicated Dave for the average Joe to understand. Can't you make the word have a single basic meaning? So even a child can understand? ---------------------------------- If I was to use one of Jeff's meanings from Jeff's translation of Genesis and bring it to the NT you would not agree with Jeff anyway. For example "re'shiyth" Jeff Benner translates as "summit" all the time. How easy he translates... For example in Exodus 23:19 you will [bring] {the} summit‡ {of the} firstfruits {of} your ground to§ {the} house {of} “Yhwh He is” your “Elohiym Powers”, you will not boil {a} male kid in the fat** {of} his mother, re'shiyth is still translated summit everytime. How easy for Jeff... So we extrapolate to the NT Bible for reshiyth... Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against summits, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And suddenly this makes sense. We war not against biological agents or human powers, but against summits, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of the world. Jeff is saying the rulers of darkness were around at the summit of Creation. Have you any Jeff emails to share on this topic of translation, or on the meaning of arche/reshiyth? Shalom
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 29, 2021 20:01:37 GMT -5
Way too complicated Dave for the average Joe to understand. Can't you make the word have a single basic meaning? So even a child can understand?That is the goal of translation! (google) What makes translation difficult? Translation can also be difficult because of cultural differences. Words often reflect the culture and the society that use them. ... Translators need linguistic, socio-cultural and pragmatic competence of the two languages to translate. There is associative meaning in languages. (google) What are the limitations for word for word translation? Although most of the world languages have lexical or stylistic matches for most of the words, some words cannot be accurately translated or the expressions obtained by means of translation do not correspond. That is why the translator needs to adapt and interpret the text, exceeding his or her original duties. Yes – you have to sit and Ponder – what is the text trying to say? There are parts of 2 Cor that will make your head spin – complicated!This is the game – copy the Greek without the verse reference Not a common well known verse – but something from Numbers Then watch the class struggle to decipher – to interpret 10 students will come up with 10 different answers - some almost contradictory to one another (google) Why is word for word translation considered an imperfect concept or technique in translation? Strictly speaking, the concept of metaphrase—of "word-for-word translation"—is an imperfect concept, because a given word in a given language often carries more than one meaning; and because a similar given meaning may often be represented in a given language by more than one word. ---------------------------------- If I was to use one of Jeff's meanings from Jeff's translation of Genesis and bring it to the NT you would not agree with Jeff anyway. 1- Question – does Jeff Brenner make the claim that his approach works across all languages? Or – does Jeff Brenner present a Hebrew study tool 2- Get Serious – the agl was written into Greek Explain to me why a method of discussing Hebrew root forms would apply to a more modern language that is a composite of many more influences than the Proto-Hebrew? --------- It has been almost two years In that time Robert has questioned me daily I have asked Robert a series of 38 Questions about his SDA Doctrine as you present it His answered up until he became stumped and his doctrine was exposed as a fraud Why was it a sin for satan to obey the Lord in the Book of JobSo far he dodges and evadesWhy was it a sin for a deceiving spirit in the service of the Lord to deceive? His best answer – the scripture is false – it never happened And – Ahab was a sinner wasn’t he – he deserved it1 Chr 21 your satan is a sinner – sinning – doing ra – opposing God 2 Sam 24 – when your God does it – you refuse to explain why God isn’t a sinner –doing ra – opposing Himself His best answer – King David was a sinner wasn’t he – he deserved itSo now he change sthe subject to the Greek to distract from playing his partHe has 25 questions or so remainingAnd since he has dragged his feet in answering my questions – two more have come to light Question #39ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/506/romans-5-19?page=1&scrollTo=5779Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Question #40ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/504/sda-doctrine?page=2&scrollTo=5783 Rom 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:13 (TLV) For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. Rom 5:13 (YLT) for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; Rom 5:13 (ASV) for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 30, 2021 12:08:37 GMT -5
biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2525.htmWay too complicated Dave for the average Joe to understand. Can't you make the word have a single basic meaning? So even a child can understand? Several Points1- actually Hebrew , Greek, Aramaic, and Latin are the easiest old languages to translate – because they are so “tight” Pro-Hebrew – has how many sources? Vrs How many sources does Biblical Hebrew have? Vrs How many sources did the Greeks have Vrs How many sourcs does English have? Each step in the progression of languages – more variations become normal Today – in English when you look up a word in the dictionary you read The most common use today, the most common variations today (grammar) + the variations in use of yesterday – and the strange use of the word by the Germans, as opposed to the way middle English used the word, and how the original root was used Today in modern English – WTF does @#$% mean? Give me a one word definition! – Even if you tried, as soon as you asked another guy you get a different word – ask a 100 guys and you get 100 deffinitions. Move from the East Coast to the West Coast – you get different answers Ask a truck driver – you will get a different answer In 1600 AD England it meant to strike someone - to hit someone – to cause a blow to someone as in battel In 500 AD Roman Latin it just mean wife or woman Way too complicated for the average Joe to understand.Translation is just like mathematics (simile) You are discussing algebra equations – but you cannot add or subtract – and therefore you end up with wrong conclusions and think it complex Learn to translate – step one You must master simple math – before moving onagl Greek was not written with punctuation as we know it ahl Hebrew did not have punctuations or vowels NOTHING exist in its original form – all we have is what we haveHow many translations of the Bible exist – many – are they all word for word Answer – NO –and why not – and why don’t they? Taking words out as standalone examples of doctrine violated Isaiah call to place precept upon precept, line upon linepre·cept noun - a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought. "the legal precept of being innocent until proven guilty" Similar: principle, rule, tenet, canon, code, guideline, working principle, law, ordinance, statute, command, order, decree, mandate, dictate, dictum, directive, direction, instruction, injunction, prescription, commandment, mitzvah To pull singular words out of scripture and stumble over them – misses the precept of preceptUsing an interlinear can give you the impression that you know Biblical Hebrew, when in fact, you do not. Instead, you only know how certain words have been translated from Hebrew into English. MISSES - peculiarities of Hebrew grammar
Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts. Biblical Hebrew is a Semitic language and very different from English and other European languages. If you only use an interlinear bible to read the text of the Hebrew Bible, you will be missing many interesting features of syntax, style, wordplay, and poetics, etc. You may even miss a central aspect of a text. To pull singular words out of scripture and stumble over them – misses the precept of precept It is only a distraction from the BIGGER MESSAGE – the precept being taughtI know who you areLeaving the Book of revelations out of it Precept upon precept – satan is an in the service of the Lord Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” Mat 12: 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. Mark 3: 22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” But isn’t it funny a Catholics knows nothing about Beelzebul, Remember 1 Kngs 22 and the volunteer deceiving spirit working in service of the Lord 2Ki 1:1 Then Moab rebelled against Israel after the death of Ahab. 2Ki 1:2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease. Who is Beelzebul? Answer – he is the “OTHER gOD” of the Philistines Who are the Philistines? Look at the Biblical Map The Philistines ate the people of The Gaza Strip – current at war with Israel CuriousWhere did the Amorites live in biblical times? (google) Amorite, member of an ancient Semitic-speaking people who dominated the history of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine from about 2000 to about 1600 bc. The other folk currently at war with Israel The ahl alive before our eyes – recognize what is in your sightWho is Beelzebul? Answer – he is the “OTHER gOD” of the Philistines (Gaza Strip) working with / allegiant to / brothers with the Ammorite who are the Rephiem genetic legacy of the Nephilim of the bane elohiym – ARCHON Who is Beelzebul? Answer – Solomon says – he is the father of the shedim (archon) ugly invisible / yet mortal beings They have a matter form and can be trapped / contained / chained (Genie in the bottle Jinn) They can be hurt and even killed when in visible mortal form Who is Beelzebul?Answer – he is the Beast – or his general we call the Devil He is the Beast – or Azazal (whom Robert once identified for us as our Devil) – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 What did the bane elohiym do – father Nephilim – who fathered Rephiem who are the 7 tribes of Amorite that encircle the Promised Land And none of this story line within scripture has anything to do with the ahl satan of the Jews Along come a new testament written in a new language GreekAlong come as new authority in religion – counter to Judaism – called Catholicism And the Greek term satan – is redefined by Rome G4566 - Σατᾶν – Satan - Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan, that is, the devil: - Satan. G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan. H7853 - śâṭan - A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: H7854 - śâṭân - From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, adversary, Suddenly all theology of the Jewish devil – who is a real opponent in the Contest upon earth is lost - And replaced by Catholic satan – who is a boggy man and a god of evil who is responsible for Halloween and he is out to get you drag you to hell And don't forget - he is also at war against GodAnd Roberts says – rule the way all men thing and rule their decision and choices And as Robert says – satan is elevated to a strong authority position equal with God in war And as Robert says can rewrite all of God’s creation – change their DNA – because satan is so powerful What a satanic flip to scripture! – Roman Edit helped along by the wife of an Elder of a failed prophesy group Precept upon precept – Catholic satanolgy is error – a misdirection – a focus upon the wrong God
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 16:42:46 GMT -5
Interesting argument you pose Dave. Liked your presentation on the Gaza Strip people alluded and under Beelzebul. Interesting. Maybe you are right?
As for translation issues, I would like to read and translate Hebrew, but only outside the box, hence I would not be welcome in any modern school of thought.
If I had an electronic Bible that listed prefix, suffix and all Hebrew roots, it would make reading the words easier at that level.
One doesn't learn language like maths, I learned to understand pidgin English in Papua New Guinea, by being exposed to it. First step is to learn words, and recognize them, than you learn how the words are put together in sentences by listening to other use those words. I spent 7 years listening to them speak Pidgin.
One question I noticed from Strong's... when you read a Hebrew word, do they also understand that the word has it's opposite meaning, found only from reading in context?
for example
H1288. Krb barak, baw-rak' Search for 01288 in KJV a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):--X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.
Strong's does not seem to understand:
Rob's understanding:-
H1288. in a positive context "to bless" and all variations of this basic meaning. in a negative context "to curse" and all variations of this basic meaning.
Hebrew does this a lot to its words.
Another example by Strong's showing He does not understand Hebrew at all
H5254. hon nacah, naw-saw' Search for 05254 in KJV a primitive root; to test; by implication, to attempt:--adventure, assay, prove, tempt, try.
Notice Strong's lumps the positive and negative meanings together.
Rob's understanding of Hebrew (again from Jeff Benner)
H5254. in a positive context "to test" and all variations of this basic meaning. in a negative context "to tempt" and all variations of this basic meaning.
This might explain why some translators say context is important, and sometimes it is, could all this arise simply because we never understood Hebrew properly (again I refer to my Jeff Benner teachings).
Shalom
|
|