Why to Avoid Using Interlinear Bibles

[Dave]

May 21, 2021 18:59:43 GMT -5 @robertt said:

I know you don't like Interlinear KJV with Hebrew root words, makes it easier for me to read Hebrew with some measure of authority.

I am going to say this as your friend – and I mean exactly what I say
You claim to be a serious student – but you are using a shortcut
You claim to be a serious student – but you disregard terms like syntax, verb conjugations, grammar,
You just admitted you don’t know the difference between a common noun and a Proper Noun
You just admitted that you do not understand how verbs become nouns called gerunds or participles
And – you just demonstrated that you do not understand the use of commas with a sentence

it easier for me to read Hebrew with some measure of authority
arrogant and misplaced authority

An interlinear text – is supposed to be a reference tool
NOT A REPLACEMENT for learning to translate

I have been involved in translation / off and on / since high school – the attitude about interlinear translation is consistent throughout academia
Don’t take my opinion

hebrewbiblescholar.com/avoid-interlinears/
Hebrew Bible Scholar - A Resource Guide to Studying the Bible in Hebrew

Why to Avoid Using Interlinear Bibles
When many students first begin to learn Biblical Hebrew, they think that a Hebrew-English interlinear bible can really help them in their studies. Unfortunately, they are usually wrong.

What are Interlinear Bibles?
Interlinear Hebrew bibles are just what they sound like they are – between the lines of the Hebrew text of the Bible are words written in English (or some other language) that directly correspond to the meaning of the Hebrew words above or below.

Such a version of the Hebrew Bible may seem very attractive to beginning students (and even some intermediate students as well). This is because beginning students will likely have a limited Biblical Hebrew vocabulary, difficulty identifying irregular verb forms, and a lack of experience in dealing with the peculiarities of Hebrew grammar.

(syntax, verb conjugations, and grammar)

Advantages of Interlinear Bibles
There is only one real advantage of using an interlinear Hebrew Bible: it makes reading the Bible in Hebrew seem less scary.

Disadvantages of Interlinear Bibles
The disadvantages of using interlinear bibles far outweigh any advantages. Here are three of the most important reasons why you should steer clear of interlinears:

Using an interlinear can give you the impression that you know Biblical Hebrew, when in fact, you do not. Instead, you only know how certain words have been translated from Hebrew into English. And you don’t even have to remember the meaning of any vocabulary words because a translation for every word has already been given to you!

Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts. Biblical Hebrew is a Semitic language and very different from English and other European languages. If you only use an interlinear bible to read the text of the Hebrew Bible, you will be missing many interesting features of syntax, style, wordplay, and poetics, etc. You may even miss a central aspect of a text.

YES Robert – you just get bogged down in dead end word games that leave you confused
And you don’t even play your word games consistently – your own rules come and go as it fits your SDA doctrine

People who use interlinear bibles often become dependent upon them. They never actually learn to understand Biblical Hebrew on its own terms – instead, they only understand Biblical Hebrew as it is translated into English.

Final Verdict
If you try to learn Biblical Hebrew from an interlinear bible, at some point you will likely open up a text in Hebrew without an English translation and have extreme difficulty translating it on your own. You also will probably never progress to the point where you can read the Hebrew Bible without turning to English translations.

I have taught Greek as a class (1976-77 Yokohama Japan, public library)
It was arranged by the US Naval Chaplin – it was small, but a serious group
And – confession – I spent 3 years in class as a student once myself
You can spot a cheater a mile away

Example –
10 people go home with the same assignment
1 guy nails the translation
Al the other 9 struggle and come up with some weird guesses – or don’t finish/ give up

There are parts of 2 Cor that will make your head spin – Paul the lawyer
All of Paul – is not first year Greek – many pronouns – double negatives – and extra words
Everyone teaches John first – his sentences are short and sweet
Then you come to the Book of Hebrews – attributed to Paul – yet in the Greek – it is unlike Paul or John

As a translator myself – the easiest way to teach / explore / decipher a Biblical Greek translation is with a tool called

Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes (RMAC) that comes free with e-sword
I have seen it all over the Greek world – but know it to be free with e-sword because I use it

If you like to play word games look at this

Hebrew - Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
H1254 – בָּרָא - bârâ' - A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

70 Jewish Scholars choose the Greek words
Gen 1:1 (LXX+RMAC) ενG1722 PREP αρχηG746 N-DSF εποιησενG4160 V-AAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM ουρανονG3772 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ την3588 T-ASF γηνG1065 N-ASF

G4160 – ποιέω - Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - … abide, appoint, be, bear bring (forth), …cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, …, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield.

Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes (RMAC)
N-DSF = Noun, Case: Dative (indirect object, "to"; also location "in", "at"; instrument, "with")
Number: Singular, Gender: Feminine

V-AAI-3S = Verb, Tense: Aorist, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: third [he/she/it], Number: Singular

T-NSM = definite article, Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative), Number: Singular, Gender: Masculine

N-NSM = Noun, Case: Nominative (subject; predicate nominative), Number: Singular, Gender: Masculine

So – each word come with a Strongs # and a RMAC code –
Not only do you know the definition but its “USE” - grammar within the sentence
translation on you

The only Hebrew reference tool I am aware of is The Groves-Wheeler Westminster Hebrew morphology

Gen 1:1 bara – WHM = @-v-p-i-3-f-s-X-1-c-s
@: Hebrew origin
v: verb
p: piel
i: imperfect
3: 3rd person
f: feminine
s: singular
X: suffiX
1: 1st person
c: common
s: singular

I have zero experience with it, but it seems to be a similar tool as RMAC codes
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/502/hebrew-syntax-interlinear?page=1&scrollTo=5721

[Deleted]

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

What you are saying Dave, is I am not learned.

But learned for what? Read ancient Hebrew, a dead language, in the eyes of modern Jews who read modern Hebrew in their eyes of grammar? See my problem? "taught by the precept of men:"

I trust Jeff Benner. He at least presents ancient Hebrew.

I do not try to read Hebrew using interlinear. I only use the Interlinear to find all the Hebrew words.

Is there anything wrong with this idea?

Once I find all the Hebrew words and their sentences, I than go through expecting every meaning of that word to be the same. Zero polysemy.

Is there anything wrong with this idea?

That's all I do.
Shalom

[Dave]

What you are saying Dave, is I am not learned.

May 22, 2021 2:12:07 GMT -5 Dave said:

May 21, 2021 18:59:43 GMT -5 @robertt said:

I know you don't like Interlinear KJV with Hebrew root words, makes it easier for me to read Hebrew with some measure of authority.

I am going to say this as your friend – and I mean exactly what I say
You claim to be a serious student – but you are using a shortcut
You claim to be a serious student – but you disregard terms like syntax, verb conjugations, grammar,
You just admitted you don’t know the difference between a common noun and a Proper Noun
You just admitted that you do not understand how verbs become nouns called gerunds or participles
And – you just demonstrated that you do not understand the use of commas with a sentence

it easier for me to read Hebrew with some measure of authority
arrogant and misplaced authority

An interlinear text – is supposed to be a reference tool
NOT A REPLACEMENT for learning to translate

Once I find all the Hebrew words and their sentences, I than go through expecting every meaning of that word to be the same. Zero polysemy.
Is there anything wrong with this idea?

If all you were doing is a word study – NO - but
you disregard terms like syntax, verb conjugations, grammar
you don’t know the difference between a common noun and a Proper Noun
you do not understand how verbs become nouns called gerunds or participles
you do not understand the use of commas with a sentence

Then you have total disregard if the word is use subjectively or objectively
And cram it altogether to interpret scripture

Every example you post here is seriously flawed and leads you to error
Your silly attempt to prove that Paul’s Principalities just meant in the beginning
Chosen error in an attempt to hide our real struggle and promote the strong authority of your god of evil satan

[Deleted]

You are right, I don't read grammar or translate, I just only wish to do word studies.

You mention my word studies:-

If all you were doing is a word study – NO
Your silly attempt to prove that Paul’s Principalities just meant in the beginning

So what English word would you use for this word study, Dave; Greek arche, or Hebrew re'shiyth ?

Jeff Benner would use the word "summit".

I don't mind the word "beginning".

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against summits, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Jeff Benner)

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against beginnings, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.(Rob T )

The idea Paul is making is Christians wrestle dark powers that go way back in time before earth Creation even, to the summit of Sin, or the very beginning of the SIN problem.

Remember the word meaning must fit all the OT sentences and all the NT sentences, no polysemy.

As for translations, grammar, prefixes, I do not have this ability, I just do word studies.

Shalom

[Dave]

You are right, I don't read grammar or translate, I just only wish to do word studies.
Your silly attempt to prove that Paul’s Principalities just meant in the beginning
So what English word would you use for this word study, Dave; Greek arche, or Hebrew re'shiyth ?

Around 250BC 70 Jewish scholars chose words like

Gen 1:16 = H4475 – מֶמְשָׁלָה - Feminine of H4474; rule; also (concretely in plural) a realm or a ruler: - dominion, government, power, to rule.

Gen 2:10 - H7218 – רֹאשׁ - From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literally or figuratively (in many applications, of place, time, rank, etc.): - band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief (-est place, man, things), company, end, X every [man], excellent, first, forefront, ([be-]) head, height, (on) high (-est part, [priest]), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

Gen 40:20-21 = H8269 – שַׂר – śar - From H8323; a head person (of any rank or class): - captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward.

Duet 17:18 = H3678 From H3680; properly covered, that is, a throne

Ezk 10:11 = H7218

As well as your re'shiyth – depending how the word is used
Are there more Hebrew words used to represent the Greek word archie / archon
I don’t know – maybe – I stopped looking

Remember the word meaning must fit all the OT sentences and all the NT sentences, no polysemy.
As for translations, grammar, prefixes, I do not have this ability, I just do word studies.

And your method just crammed all these Hebrew words together without care or consideration of context – or use

G746 is used 169 times in 157 verses in the (LXX)
H7225 is used 51 times in 49 verses in the Tanack

Therefore 118 times – your argument is wrong
69.8% of the time your method failed you
and because you never look past just one word - your blind to the depth of scripture

I mean no disrespect - but

Using an interlinear can give you the impression that you know Biblical Hebrew, when in fact, you do not.

Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts.

You are right, I don't read grammar or translate, I just only wish to do word studies.
Your silly attempt to prove that Paul’s Principalities just meant in the beginning
You are not an honest student - you do not study the depth of words - you play your word game to validated your doctrine

Doctrine comes first - then you use words to support to it

Dec 27, 2019 16:33:38 GMT -5 @robertt said:

So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough
So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD?
Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture?

Doctrine comes first - then you look for words to use to support to it

and after we look at each and every verse (23 + 49) - you said

All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek and Isa, I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven?

You are not an honest student - you do not study the depth of words - you play your word game to validated your doctrine

[Deleted]

Therefore 118 times – your argument is wrong
69.8% of the time your method failed you

Why must we validate our Scripture from scholars Dave? The LXX even?
Can't we ask GOD for guidance and read the Hebrew ourselves?

I looked up the LXX online and read many verses:

3 Ruben, thou art my first-born, thou my strength, and the first of my children, hard to be endured, hard and self-willed.
Ge 49:3 Reuben <R@'uwben>, thou art my firstborn <b@kowr>, my might <koach>, and the beginning <re'shiyth> of my strength <'own>,

different to KJV
------------
19 Thou shalt bring the first-offerings of the first-fruits of thy land into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a lamb in its mother’s milk.
Ex 23:19 The first <re'shiyth> of the firstfruits <bikkuwr> of thy land <'adamah>

same as KJV
---------------
7 Though then thy beginning should be small, yet thy end should be unspeakably great.
Job 8:7 Though thy beginning <re'shiyth> was small <mits`ar>

same as KJV

Are you sure the LXX is really that different for re'shiyth ?


D"
Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts.

R" Maybe, but one has to validate the Hebrew word meaning to begin with.

The beginning of something happening the first time in the forward movement of time, can be translated often as "first". The LXX and the KJV does this.

I prefer to use "beginning" Jeff uses "summit" because we stick to Zero polysemy.

For every context of the word.

This is what words do, in sentences, I chose a word, and that word remains what I chose.
If I am translating to another language, surely the other language has to retain the structure of the writer who wrote the words.

Self
What am I? A person?

A slave, who is a slave to the world,

Doing my best to please it,

In, like a sheep following,

Not myself.

I am not myself.

I long to be freed.

Not bound.

And yet where am I?

Not free, a job to do;

Where work never ends,

The world bears down on you;

To be myself.

Alone with a smiling face,

Not a husband, nor a kid,

Or a teacher,

But just a man.

Not bound.

As a creator of this poem when I was 17 years old, it still rings weird after all these years. What did I mean by "not bound"? I would be upset if these two words were translated as different words in another language. The words in German for example must be the same.
The words "myself" must also be the same when translating, not invent other words because the context is different.

Now in Greek they have only 2 words for types of sheep, but Hebrew has 3 words, so herein lies a problem when translating.

Another problem for the LXX in Greek, is dealing with Greek words that do not exist. There is no Greek word for YHWH, adonay or adown, or even master, only one Greek word Kurios for all these 4 Hebrew words.

Sometimes the Greek word adopts the Hebrew word, such as Satanas, which in Greek doesn't exist.

What I don't like, as Jeff also, is the changing of English words when One English word should be used for the Hebrew word, or Greek word under question.

Now if you say one cannot read Scripture , than maybe we should just go back to reading the KJV instead, and leave it at that. 99% of Christians do just that.

D"You are not an honest student - you do not study the depth of words - you play your word game to validated your doctrine

R" I do not. How can you play word games, when you do a word study?

For example kathestemi the word we studied. 22 sentences in the NT and a few in the OT.

Meaning in English? One word remember? For me this word is "rule' or 'ruler"

Fits every sentence, some a bit jarred, but fits them all.

Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land,

dictates the meaning of kathestemi

Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "ruler" over the land,

Can you supply a single English word for shalliyt/kathestemi ?

You supplied me lots of stuff before on this, but not a single English word.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were "ruled" sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be "ruled" righteous.

You never did like where this word study leads, did you?

But this lines up with 1 Kings 22. If you wish to sin, God sends you the lying medium to rule over your soul.

If you wish to NOT to sin, God sends you the salvation medium to rule over your soul.

Simple decision really. All you do is allow the ruler to be your master...

Shalom

[Dave]

G746 is used 169 times in 157 verses in the (LXX)
H7225 is used 51 times in 49 verses in the Tanack

Therefore 118 times – your argument is wrong
69.8% of the time your method failed you

Are you sure the LXX is really that different for re'shiyth ?
DUH - 51 times out of 169 or 34.9% of the time your guess was correct
What about the 118 times when G746 does not mean re'shiyth ?
Oops!

D quoting from a Hebrew translation source - " Focusing only on translating the Hebrew Bible into English can really hurt your ability to understand the meaning of biblical texts.
R" Maybe, but one has to validate the Hebrew word meaning to begin with.
The beginning of something happening the first time in the forward movement of time, can be translated often as "first". The LXX and the KJV does this.

What about the 118 times when G746 does not mean re'shiyth ?

H8269 – שַׂר – śar - From H8323; a head person (of any rank or class): - captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal),

What of the 5 times G746 = H8269 - prince

Pro 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

What of the 15 times G746 = H4475 - ruler

Another problem for the LXX in Greek, is dealing with Greek words that do not exist. There is no Greek word for YHWH, adonay or adown, or even master, only one Greek word Kurios for all these 4 Hebrew words.
Sometimes the Greek word adopts the Hebrew word, such as Satanas, which in Greek doesn't exist.

R How can you play word games, when you do a word study?
So by what authority do you have to then pick a word that you like re'shiyth
And play a game that the Greek word Archon can mean only that and nothing else
Only to be embarrassed by the bulk of scripture

R" I do not. How can you play word games, when you do a word study?
For example kathestemi the word we studied. 22 sentences in the NT and a few in the OT.
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land,
dictates the meaning of kathestemi

Ha ha ha ha giggle giggle
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the ARCHON over the land,

Gen 42:6 Ιωσηφ δὲ ἦν ἄρχων τῆς γῆς, οὗτος ἐπώλει παντὶ τῷ λαῷ τῆς γῆς· ἐλθόντες δὲ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ Ιωσηφ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν.

And we can add yet another Hebrew word for archon
H7989 – שַׁלִּיט - From H7980; potent; concretely a prince or warrior: - governor, mighty, that hath power, ruler.

Are you sure re'shiyth is the one and only word choice for archon ?

[Dave]

May 23, 2021 13:59:14 GMT -5 @robertt said:

R" I do not. How can you play word games, when you do a word study?
For example kathestemi the word we studied. 22 sentences in the NT and a few in the OT.

Meaning in English? One word remember? For me this word is "rule' or 'ruler"
Fits every sentence, some a bit jarred, but fits them all.
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land,
dictates the meaning of kathestemi
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "ruler" over the land,

Can you supply a single English word for shalliyt/kathestemi ?

May 23, 2021 17:12:55 GMT -5 Dave said:

Ha ha ha ha giggle giggle
Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the ARCHON over the land,

Gen 42:6 Ιωσηφ δὲ ἦν ἄρχων τῆς γῆς, οὗτος ἐπώλει παντὶ τῷ λαῷ τῆς γῆς· ἐλθόντες δὲ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ Ιωσηφ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν.

And we can add yet another Hebrew word for archon

Can you supply a single English word for shalliyt/kathestemi ?

G2525 uses 133 times in 129 verse of the (LXX)
I just a 5 minutes I found 3 Hebrew words for G2525

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

G2525 – καθίστημι - From G2596 and G2476; to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.

Gen 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

H6485 – פָּקַד - A primitive root; to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc.: - appoint, X at all, avenge, bestow, (appoint to have the, give a) charge, commit, count, deliver to keep, be empty, enjoin, go see, hurt, do judgment, lack, lay up look, make X by any means, miss, number, officer, (make) overseer have (the) oversight, punish, reckon, (call to) remember (-brance), set (over), sum, X surely, visit, want.

Gen 41:33 Now therefore let Pharaoh look out a man discreet and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt.

H7896 – שִׁית - A primitive root; to place (in a very wide application): - apply, appoint, array, bring, consider, lay (up), let alone, X look, make, mark, put (on), + regard, set, shew, be stayed, X take

Deu 16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

H5414 – נָתַן - A primitive root; to give, used with great latitude of application (put, make, etc.): - add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, X avenge, X be ([healed]), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute do, X doubtless, X without fail, fasten, frame, X get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), X have, X indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, X pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up). + sing, + slander, strike, [sub-] mit, suffer, X surely, X take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, X willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield.

R" I do not. How can you play word games, when you do a word study?
For example kathestemi the word we studied. 22 sentences in the NT and a few in the OT.

Ge 42:6 And Joseph was the "ruler" over the land, = dictates the meaning of kathestemi

ONLY BECAUSE YOU WANT IT TO

G2525 – καθίστημι - From G2596 and G2476;

G2596 – κατά - A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against,

G2476 - ἵστημι - A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up).

G2525- to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.

Scripture says

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Your word study led you to this

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many ARCHON, so by the obedience of one ARCHON righteous.

And your word study of ARCHON led you to

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience in the beginning, so by the obedience of one in the beginning righteous.

How do you play word games – when doing word studies?
Not very well – your Robert Method fails you – do you care

[Deleted]

G746 is used 169 times in 157 verses in the (LXX)
H7225 is used 51 times in 49 verses in the Tanack

Therefore 118 times – your argument is wrong
69.8% of the time your method failed you

Are you sure the LXX is really that different for re'shiyth ?
DUH - 51 times out of 169 or 34.9% of the time your guess was correct
What about the 118 times when G746 does not mean re'shiyth ?
Oops!
R" SO are you telling me the LXX translators chose other Hebrew words to also use with H7225? After all H7225 is used only in 49 verses.
If G746 in 157 verses in the (LXX), than what other Hebrew words is this G746 replacing?

Care to list them for me? The online LXX does not allow me to look up all the verses of G746.

And you are not being fair in your word study are you?
Of the 49 verses where H7225 how many does G746 take on a different meaning? That is a better question...


D" What about the 118 times when G746 does not mean re'shiyth ?
Please list me a few of this verses....

D"What of the 5 times G746 = H8269 - prince
R" What? list the verses for me?
368 verses use sar, which ones would the LXX translate as re'shiyth? 5 verses you say?

Proverb 8: 16 By me nobles become great, and monarchs by me rule over the earth. (LXX)

Pr 8:16 By me princes <sar> rule <sarar>, (KJV)

16 δι᾿ ἐμοῦ μεγιστᾶνες μεγαλύνονται, καὶ τύραννοι δι᾿ ἐμοῦ κρατοῦσι γῆς. (Greek LXX)

Pardon me, but I don't see arche here?

1 For, behold, a righteous king shall reign, and princes shall govern with judgment. Is 32:1

Jeff Benner lists  G746 as H7225.

Grk#:746  / ar-khay (noun): Beginning/Leader Freq:&58
Heb#:7225 ראשית / rey-shit (noun): Summit—The head,
top or beginning of a place, such as a river or mountain,
or a time, such as an event. The point at which something
starts; origin, source.



I do not see what you are saying? What is sar in Greek? I do not see arche in the LXX Greek? 

What about the 118 times when G746 does not mean re'shiyth ?
What of the 5 times G746 = H8269 - prince
What of the 15 times G746 = H4475 - ruler
SHow me a few verses of these you say?

www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/

Ge 42:6 And Joseph <Yowceph> was the governor <shalliyt> over the land <'erets>,
6 And Joseph was ruler of the land; (nice job)

6 ᾿Ιωσὴφ δὲ ἦν ὁ ἄρχων τῆς γῆς, οὗτος ἐπώλει παντὶ τῷ λαῷ τῆς γῆς· ἐλθόντες δὲ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ ᾿Ιωσὴφ προσεκύνησαν αὐτῷ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν.

That's weird Dave, why does it list ἄρχων instead of katestaqhsan ?

No wonder you giggle.


Not very well – your Robert Method fails you – do you care

I see what you mean? Something wrong here?

Why does the LXX use arche for Gen 42:6? that is weird? How can they do this?

I can't study this easily as I can't look up Greek words in the LXX, nor do I read Greek easily.
But it is sure a problem....

DO you have a LXX Greek with Hebrew interlinear, so I can look up all the Greek words easily please? This is weird....what you have shown me...

Shalom

[Dave]

R" SO are you telling me the LXX translators chose other Hebrew words to also use with H7225? After all H7225 is used only in 49 verses.
If G746 in 157 verses in the (LXX), than what other Hebrew words is this G746 replacing?

Care to list them for me? The online LXX does not allow me to look up all the verses of G746.

I have shared the software choice with you multiple times

1 For, behold, a righteous king shall reign, and princes shall govern with judgment. Is 32:1
I do not see what you are saying? What is sar in Greek? I do not see arche in the LXX Greek?

Isa 32:1 ἰδοὺ γὰρ βασιλεὺς δίκαιος βασιλεύσει, καὶ ἄρχοντες (G758) μετὰ κρίσεως ἄρξουσιν.

G758 - ἄρχων - archōn - Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
G758 - ἄρχων - archōn found 550 times in 500 verses of the (LXX)

Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes (H5269) shall rule in judgment.
H8269 -sar

Not very well – your Robert Method fails you – do you care
I see what you mean? Something wrong here?
Why does the LXX use arche for Gen 42:6? that is weird? How can they do this?
You fail to consider word useage (grammar)

G746 ἀρχή - archē - From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):

ἀρχή – means first in time – first in place/order – and first in rank
First in time = in the beginning -
First in place or order = the corner of the building – first fruits
First in rank = ruler, leader, strong authority, captain, governor
ἀρχή means more than just first in time

DO you have a LXX Greek with Hebrew interlinear, so I can look up all the Greek words easily please? This is weird....what you have shown me...

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

Your a good translator, I have never noticed this before.
What a terrible job these LXX Hebrew translators do their their native Hebrew.

What do they assume G746, can have the same meanings for so many Hebrew words?

Have a look at this little study of mine


Some questions: Why do translators lump different Hebrew words into a single Greek meaning G746? This is terribly wrong and unfair to God's holy message in Hebrew.

Are they doing this for all occurrences of rosh? or just this verse? In that case they are guilty of assuming words have meanings depending upon context. And thus they are not translating at all, only fixing the text according to a Greek audience.

If I was translating the Hebrew into Greek, I would insist reshiyth have G746, and rosh have a different Greek word, and rishown have a G746 similar root word, as it seems similar to reshiyth. Assuming G746 means the beginning. 

Do you get what I am saying. This translation is terrible. It is not fair to GOD and His holy message.

No wonder you think I am playing word games. I understand the terrible mess of translation now.

Now I wonder what to do with the NT, since it was a translation of the Hebrew, so we have potentially lost the NT torah as Jesus wanted it written properly?

Any comments?

The bottom line is we cannot discuss Scripture at all, on any level of certainty, except the Hebrew itself in the OT, the NT will only be a guess as to what was intended to be written?

DO you have an links of any scholars discussing this problem for me to read further?

And the funny thing for me, Ellen white makes not a single comment about Bible translations, now I know why, it would discourage people. 


Shalom

[Dave]

Your a good translator, I have never noticed this before.
What a terrible job these LXX Hebrew translators do their their native Hebrew.
Some questions: Why do translators lump different Hebrew words into a single Greek meaning G746? This is terribly wrong and unfair to God's holy message in Hebrew.

The answer is very easy – Hebrew and Greek – are not the same language
And then – Hebrew and Greek are not the same language as English

You totally don’t get this point – you just treat them as if they all fit into one pre-Hebrew picture gram

Have a look at this little study of mine

Gen 1:1 ἀρχῇ is feminine, singular, the DO of a preposition, used as an adjective indicating time

Gen 42:6 ἄρχων is masculine, singular, nominative case, used as a predicate nominative

Gen 1:16 αρχας is a female, plural, Accusative Case (direct object; motion toward; time: "how long")

Gen 40:21 ἀρχὴν is feminine, singular, Accusative Case (direct object; motion toward; time: "how long")

Isa 32:1 ἄρχοντες - is a participle or gerund

YES Robert – all these word come from the sane root – ARCHON
But they are all used differently – it is called grammar

What do they assume G746, can have the same meanings for so many Hebrew words?

G746 - ἀρχή - From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time,(AND YOU STOP READING HERE – but the rest of the definition says ) place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

If you are first in time – in the beginning – there is a Hebrew word for that

If you are first in rank – you can be the captian (a Hebrew word for that) you can be the judge (another Hebrew word for that) – you can be the general (another Hebrew word) – you can be the governor (another Hebrew word) – or you can just be the ruler (another Hebrew word) – magistrate (another Hebrew word) , power, principality, principle - etc

If you are first in place – the corner (another Hebrew word) - first estate (another Hebrew word)

What do they assume G746, can have the same meanings for so many Hebrew words?
Greek is not Hebrew and you totally ignore word usage (grammar)

Do you get what I am saying. This translation is terrible. It is not fair to GOD and His holy message.
OR – you are not being academically fair to the language
No wonder you think I am playing word games. I understand the terrible mess of translation now.

Is translation messy – sure – like math at first - but it is a lot like math because it become so interesting
Everyone begins Greek with John – he wrote to the common man – his sentences are short and sweet and his verbs are simple – he writes addition and subtraction
Luke was a physician and never a Hebrew – he writes algebra
Paul was a Hebrew lawyer- some of his writing is calculus – complex verb forms - long run on sentences filled with pronouns

Here is another interesting FACT you do not consider – cultural drift over time
Moses, Daniel, and Amos all lived 1000 years apart

FYI – In English today – what does FIZZEL mean – to me it means to bubble or die out as the bubble fizz away
In 1700 it meant to fart / pass wind

Clue: Centuries ago, a clue (or clew) was a ball of yarn. Think about threading your way through a maze and you’ll see how we got from yarn to key bits of evidence that help us solve things.

Nice: This word used to mean “silly, foolish, simple.” Far from the compliment it is today!

Silly: Meanwhile, silly went in the opposite direction: in its earliest uses, it referred to things worthy or blessed; from there it came to refer to the weak and vulnerable, and more recently to those who are foolish.

Awful: Awful things used to be “worthy of awe” for a variety of reasons, which is how we get expressions like “the awful majesty of God.”

Naughty: Long ago, if you were naughty, you had naught or nothing. Then it came to mean evil or immoral, and now you are just badly behaved.

Cultural impact upon a language

Guy: This word is an eponym. It comes from the name of Guy Fawkes, who was part of a failed attempt to blow up Parliament in 1605. Folks used to burn his effigy, a “Guy Fawkes” or a “guy,” and from there it came to refer to a frightful figure. In the U.S., it has come to refer to men in general.

A DICK in 1900 was a detective
1970s Richard Nixon (tricky Dick) made it a slang word for an ass hole

In Numbers 23:22 and 24:8, the Bible speaks of the strength of a unicorn. Deuteronomy 33:17, Psalms 22: 21 and Psalms 92:10 speak of the unicorn's horn. ... In Psalms 29:6, the unicorn is likened to a young calf skipping, while Isiah 34:7 mentions unicorns in the same context as bulls and bullocks.

Webster’s Dictionary before 1800
Unicorn – a one horned rhinoceros

After 1800 Webster’s Dictionary
Unicorn – a mythical creature

Now I wonder what to do with the NT, since it was a translation of the Hebrew, so we have potentially lost the NT torah as Jesus wanted it written properly?
Any comments?

Get serious – you just keep injecting fiction into you view of scripture – you TWIST just so it is a problem

The agl was not written in Hebrew any attempt to translate agl Greek into first century Hebrew just compounds error on top of error by adding another layer of translation to what we have
Possibly Matthew was an original Hebrew text – but it only exist in the Greek

The bottom line is we cannot discuss Scripture at all, on any level of certainty, except the Hebrew itself in the OT, the NT will only be a guess as to what was intended to be written?

1- all we can use is what we have
2- Richard would say – ambiguity is by design – remember precepts are taught by being repeated over and over line upon line
3- Richard would argue – it says was God allows it to say
Can man corrupt God’s Holy word – sure to a point / error and possible mistake happen (man is only human) – and the agl is more corrupt than the ahl (because of the Roman Edit and basted texts within the Textus Receptus that exist nowhere else)
4- talk about translation – The Torah was written without vowels – they were added around 600 BC in Babylon – around the time of Daniel
As we just saw - Westministers codex 3.1 and 4.4 do not have the same vowle markinngs
The ASV was complied from 100s of Greek codecies - therefore all the marginal readings

If you have a standard issue KJV Scolfields Study Bible there are marginal readings in the ahl as well
Where do those come from Robert?
Answer - variatiations in multiple ancient text

Long winded discussion on
Joshua 22:22 “God of gods is Adonai! God of gods is Adonai! He knows, and may Israel itself know!
Is this a mistake? - Did the scribe copy it twicw by mistake?
Answer - doesn't matter - doesn't effect the whole

(LXX) Do I say it is perfect – no
But – it is the mind-set of Jesus era Jews
Is the agl perfect – no – Mathew and Luke do not agree
The Nag Hammadi – Do I say it is perfect – no
But it is the mind-set of First century Messianic Jews

Final Comment
It doesn’t matter – if a small error exist in the text – because it is the overall message that is the Gospel
Abraham knew and kept God’s Torah before Moses wrote it
Jesus never wrote a single word – the Gospel is an oral message – that was written down later

None of this is the answer

All of this together leads us to the answer – a personal relationship and we are taught from within by the ultimate teacher – precept upon precept – line upon line – over and over

When you are on the right track – the pieces simply fit together (J. Marvin Herndon)

DO you have any links of any scholars discussing this problem for me to read further?
Interesting you should ask – that would be Dan Black or Hal at AHR
Hal – is/was associated with the Center for Hebrew Studies at Stanford

I have been on the Wheel for a while (now closed I think) and there are several ETWB sites (100% Catholic) – If you search the Hebrew Institute in Jerusalem, you will find you way to Chabad.org – that is how I got there

Linguistics - But – you will be disappointed – just as you were at ARH
They didn’t discuss theology - they wanted to discuss grammar and word root origins

And the funny thing for me, Ellen white makes not a single comment about Bible translations, now I know why, it would discourage people.

I have to respond
Not all are called the same – you can be as simple as a child

However – you are then called to grow up to your full potential – isn’t that what any father wants of us
If your potential is 12th Century simple –OK
If your potential is 17th Century simple –OK

However this is today and nothing is simple in our time
It is a trap – between public education and corner church doctrine
It reminds me of the song Hotel California - you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave
30 years of corner church heasring the same invocation over and over
However – you are then called to grow up to your full potential – what comes after accepting that invocation - isn’t that what any father wants of us

I reject Roman Christendom and all its traditional ritual mythology
The more of the First Century Christian material I have studied – the more Jewish my view becomes
Jesus did not come to rewrite the Torah – this Christian New Covenant does not negate the ahl or Judaism

The New Christian Covenant has become a new religion – based upon Rome not Judaism

Exk 8-9 speaks of the abomination in the Temple –
Tammuz – born on Dec 25th – to mother Easter with her eggs and ham
Just how different is that than Roman Christendom?

That is my comment!

[Deleted]

Interesting read. Thanks Dave.

So the Greek word G746 has so many meanings? That makes the word experience polysemy, doesn't it?
And so the translators are fitting several Hebrew words which do not have polysemy into the Greek word which has polysemy?

Why does Jeff Benner list G746 as only related entirely to re'shiyth? He is not fair to the LXX either and making assumptions of his own?

Since you are a good Greek translator, you can answer this question so easily for me.


First list all the Hebrew words chosen to be lumped together into G746.

Next let's go back to this verse?

Eph 6:12 For <hoti> we <hemin> wrestle <pale> not <ou> against <esti> <pros> flesh <sarx> and <kai> blood <haima>, but <alla> against <pros> principalities <arche>, against <pros> powers <exousia>, against <pros> the rulers <kosmokrator> of the darkness <skotos> of this <toutou> world <aion>, against <pros> spiritual <pneumatikos> wickedness <poneria> in <en> high <epouranios> places.

This list has arche mentioned first.

Are you able to match each Greek word to the Hebrew word in the OT? Also list one verse in the OT as an example of LXX using this Hebrew word, but now translating it into Greek instead.

So arche has polysemy. Choose what you think is the correct Hebrew word for this context. So me the verse the LXX uses in the OT for that meaning.

For example

re'shiyth cannot be the meaning here for arche, according to you. OK? I accept this.


You list these examples

If you are first in time – in the beginning – there is a Hebrew word for that

If you are first in rank – you can be the captian (a Hebrew word for that) you can be the judge (another Hebrew word for that) – you can be the general (another Hebrew word) – you can be the governor (another Hebrew word) – or you can just be the ruler (another Hebrew word) – magistrate (another Hebrew word) , power, principality, principle - etc

If you are first in place – the corner (another Hebrew word) - first estate (another Hebrew word)

first in time, first in rank, first in place, is very close to the idea of "summit" as Jeff alludes to, the "first or highest thing of something", also not much different to "beginning" the idea the first thing or something that happens?

Have you left out something?

Gen 42:6 Joseph was made arche over the land. What is that supposed to mean and why use this Greek word when other Greek words would have been better such as

Ac 7:10 And <kai> ... Pharaoh <Pharao> king <basileus> of Egypt <Aiguptos>; and <kai> he made <kathistemi> him <autos> governor <hegeomai> over <epi> Egypt

Notice the Greek treats Gen 42:6 with additional Greek words

kathistemi and hegeomai.

But what I find is the LXX uses arche instead. Why is that?

Notice this image of a simple study?


The Greek in Act 7:10 does not seem to reflect the LXX either in Ec 8:8??

Ac 7:10 kai exeileto auton ek paswn twn qliyewn autou kai edwken autw carin kai sojian enantion jaraw basilewV aiguptou kai katesthsen auton hgoumenon ep aigupton kai olon ton oikon autou (TR)

The LXX is not using either katesthsen auton hgoumenon for shalliyt, but a totally different Greek word??

Please comment.

I find the LXX have no reason to write arche for Gen 42:6, they seem to be very unfair to shalliyt? 


Shalom

[Dave]

So the Greek word G746 has so many meanings? That makes the word experience polysemy, doesn't it?
And so the translators are fitting several Hebrew words which do not have polysemy into the Greek word which has polysemy?

Is the word archie polysemy?
It means “first in”
How is it used – “first in time” / “first in place or order” / “first in rank”

Why does Jeff Benner list G746 as only related entirely to re'shiyth? He is not fair to the LXX either and making assumptions of his own?

1- I am not up on his total work – so my opinion is only a guess
2- you said ‘ Jeff said, the first time a word is used set the definition’ – or something like that
(am I correct in this?)

3- the first time re'shiyth is used sets the definition for how it is always used in Hebrew
(am I correct in this?)

4- AND YOU ARE APPLYING THIS HEBREW RULE TO OTHER LANGUAGES – is that correct?

First list all the Hebrew words chosen to be lumped together into G746.
Hebrew came first - then Greek
You have it backwards – your question should be – how many Greek words represent re'shiyth

Next let's go back to this verse? - Eph 6:12
Are you able to match each Greek word to the Hebrew word in the OT?

Not within the OT or NT
But the Nag hammadi cleariy identifies the archon as the Shedim of Solomon - shades
So does Enoch - so do other ahl writtings - that all find their way into the Zohar

Scripture has satan's seed in Gen 3:15
Solomon speaks of Belzeebul and his offspring
Nag Hammadi speaks of the Beast of revelation and his offspring
Rev 12:3 say the Beast appeared with ten horns and 7 crowns (it is a group)
Enoch speak of Azazal and his offspring
Gen 6 and Enoch speak of the bane elohiym and their offspring

This is a completely different group - a differt type of being than the angels - you could say this is another race of beings - that exist near earth invisibly or visible
They are not Free Will creatures - the are dumb to the Lord and just dod what they do to satisfy their own self

They are of the Left Hand - Feminine - not in favor - destined for ruin like all animals
They are of the Left hand - Feminine - from the HS - who then push them away into the choshek (Gen 1:2 Rev 12:7)
They are from the Left hand - the hand of mystery

While the Right Hand of God instructs and saves

H7700 - shêd / shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil.

Also list one verse in the OT as an example of LXX using this Hebrew word, but now translating it into Greek instead.

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils (H7700), not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, (H7700)

G1140 – δαιμόνιον - Neuter of a derivative of G1142; a daemonic being; by extension a deity: - devil, god.
G1142 – δαίμων - From δαίω daiō (to distribute fortunes); a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.

Eph 6:12 = archon (Principality) = a demon or super natural spirit (of a bad nature):

Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the (archon / shedim - visible demonic being), against the powers (invisible demonic beings shedim / archon) , against the worldly forces (WORLDY FORCES) of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. (spiritual forces of wickedness- invisible archon)

Thunder Energies Discovers Invisible Terrestrial Entities ...https://money.cnn.com › news › articles › prnewswire
Jan 20, 2016 — In this breaking news, Thunder Energies presents evidence for the existence of Invisible Terrestrial Entities (ITE) of the dark and bright type.

The Beast was the first archon – he was the archon archon of the WORLD (physical creation)
Rev 12:3 – Great Red Dragon

The devil is his #1 general concerning man

Which has nothing to do with an angels being the agent of the Lord – to prosecute/ temp / or test

Have you left out something?
Gen 42:6 Joseph was made arche over the land. What is that supposed to mean and why use this Greek word when other Greek words would have been better such as
Academic honesty and grammar

Gen 42:6 Now Joseph was the ruler over the land.
Archon here is a predicate normative

I am Dave – Joseph was the ruler
Dave am I –the ruler was Joseph

Ac 7:10 And <kai> ... Pharaoh <Pharao> king <basileus> of Egypt <Aiguptos>; and <kai> he made <kathistemi> him <autos> governor <hegeomai> over <epi> Egypt

kathistemi and hegeomai.

Kathistemi – he made him – he ordained him – he set him – he appointed him
hegeomai. – (google) Hegemony derives from the Greek term hēgemonia (“dominance over”), which was used to describe relations between city-states. - the Greek word hegemonia "leadership" from the noun hegemon "leader", a noun from the verb hegeisthai "to lead". ...

The LXX is not using either katesthsen auton hgoumenon for shalliyt, but a totally different Greek word?? … the LXX uses arche instead. Why is that?
Because they say different things altogether ?

also hegemony implies a group / a collaboration
Governor / archon – implies a one man job / dictator / king

[Deleted]

D" Because they say different things altogether ?

R" Really? You are saying context dictates the word you use.

Let's look at shalliyt, with three Greek words (The verse in question is Gen 42:6), more closely

1) arche
2) exovsiazow (my spelling my be poor, the word is listed in the image of my previous post, just what is this Greek word?? can you tell me?)
3) why don't the LXX use kathestemi ?

The English meaning for exovsiazow is exercising authority, sounds just like kathestemi ?

It's really difficult looking up all verses that use arche in the LXX OT.

But this example for shalliyt really demonstrates weird translating skills.

Do you have a reason why they decided to use arche for shalliyt in Gen 42:6?
Why does the LXX use exovsiazow for all the other shalliyt contexts, but not for Gen 42:6?
And why doesn't the LXX use  kathestemi for Genesis 42:6?
And since they decide to use arche, what specific Greek meaning do they have in mind?


---------------------

www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=222

Some things to consider on the LXX

The following quotations are from the 1958 edition, Volume 20, Article "SEPTUAGINT, THE", from pages 335 - 336. The emphasis in all of the following quotations is mine.



"Its (i.e. the LXX) critical value is unfortunately greatly impaired by THE CORRUPT STATE OF ITS OWN TEXT."

"The Hebrew text from which the LXX translators worked was often divergent from that represented by the Masoretic text, but we need not assume that in cases of difference the Greek is to be preferred. THE LXX TRANSLATORS MADE SOME PALPABLE MISTAKES; THEIR KNOWLEDGE OF HEBREW WAS OFTEN INADEQUATE; THEY OCCASIONALLY INTERPRETED AS WELL AS TRANSLATED, AND THEY SOMETIMES INTRODUCED LOCAL COLOUR."



These quotations show that the LXX is totally corrupt and unreliable!


-------------

THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND THAT SUCH AN LXX TRANSLATION WAS EVER MADE!


Think about this for a moment! Why would God inspire the gospel writers to quote from a translation whose only claim to existence rested on a forged letter, rather than quoting from the Hebrew text God had inspired in the first place?

--------------

ORIGEN'S VERSION OF THE LXX



What is today accepted as the text of the LXX is nothing more than the text of the LXX Origen presented in his Hexapla. The LXX we have today does not go back to before the time of Origen.

The only LXX that exists today goes back to Origen. There is no other LXX version apart from Origen!

-----------------

AKATASTATOS: this means "unstable" and is used in James 1:8. This is a LATE DOUBLE COMPOUND from "alpha privative" + "katastatos", which comes from "kathistemi". The LXX uses this word in Isaiah 54:11.



THIS WORD WAS ALSO NOT USED IN THE GREEK OF 250 B.C.

R" Is this author saying kathistemi never existed as an older Kione Greek word ? Is this why the LXX never used this word?

----------------

There are many, many more examples of words like these, which are not really found in the Greek of 200 B.C. or earlier; yet they are used in the LXX, which supposedly reflects the Greek of 280 B.C.. But they ARE found in the Koine Greek of the New Testament. So when Origen included words like these with their New Testament meanings in his text of the LXX, it shows that he could, at the very least, not have been copying a text that predated 100 B.C.. At worst, Origen himself was composing or editing the Greek text he included in his LXX column. Either way, the conclusion must be that the LXX is simply not a reliable translation of the Hebrew scriptures.

---------------
R" From what I have seen for Gen 42:6, I would agree.


----------------

TRANSLATED FIFTEEN DIFFERENT HEBREW WORDS WITH THE ONE GREEK WORD "HYPOSTASIS"!

That was Origen's way of making sure that the idea of "hypostasis" would become well entrenched in the Old Testament!



Now think about this for a moment!



The architect of the Catholic teaching about the "hypostasis" of God is also the same man to whom can be traced the only extant version of the Greek LXX translation. And the only extant Greek LXX translation just happens to have rendered FIFTEEN DIFFERENT HEBREW WORDS into the ONE Greek word "hypostasis". Does Hebrew REALLY have "15 different ways" of saying "hypostasis"?

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Even when there are only spirit beings in existence, God the Father and Jesus Christ will both have THRONES in the New Jerusalem!



And there shall be no more curse: but THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (Revelation 22:3)

You do not agree with this Dave? two thrones in heaven for the Father and the Son?

-----------------

www.creationliberty.com/articles/septuagint.php

After reading this article, Dave, I am not even sure a LXX even existed. 



SHalom