SDA Doctrine

[Deleted]

Interesting words Dave, but you didn't answer my question.

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the third time I have asked you)

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?


What you presented was totally different, saying the OT Hebrew says "satan" is a different meaning to the NT Greek "satanas". In fact you say they are totally different created creatures....



1) an angel (Hebrew satan doing the Lord's will) and 2) archon (made to be RA and thus does Self) this satanas (NT Greek) is what the devil is all about.

SO not only do you have different meanings for the Hebrew word, which is also the Greek word, you also give the word as coming from two entirely different creature beings.

(the Hebrew word satan is the same Greek word satanas, the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek - so the same meaning must apply to OT and NT)

(second there is no mention of archon, arche as you claim, meaning a different creature; this is also a Hebrew word meaning beginning, as in Jude, the angels that left their beginnings , also rev 12 does not mention arche in war with Michael and his angels, does it?)

You ignore Bible verses that suggest a different view.


Re 20:2 lists all the words into ONE creature that sinned long before man sinned.

Shalom

[Dave]

Interesting words Dave, but you didn't answer my question.

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the third time I have asked you)

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?

Jul 6, 2021 6:14:24 GMT -5 Dave said:

YES Robert - archon are opposers of man - it is correct to call then agl satans

Jul 5, 2021 6:27:33 GMT -5 Dave said:

You deny The Beast of Revelation and raise your satan to a position of strong authority - godhood This is the very heart of your religion – satan is the god of evil opposing God the Creator in a war
Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
The entire Book of Job – satan is a servant of the Lord doing God’s Will
2 Sam 24+ 1 Chr 21 – or 1 Kings 22 – satan is a tool of God – helping to facilitate God will
In all of it – in all 23 verses of the ahl satan is a servant of the Lord opposing man

Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
And your answer with an assumption – anyone opposing man is opposing God
So - The entire Book of Job –2 Sam 24+ 1 Chr 21 – or 1 Kings 22 – and now Num 22
God is opposing man so God is opposing God – and your assumption fails

ahl satan is God’s heavenly prosecutor as in Zec 3
a servant of the Lord helping to facilitate God’s Will on earth
sometimes God’s Will on earth requires a deceiving spirit
YOU will not answer the question – why is it a sin to be God’s servant?

Now go to the agl – without any ahl
Who is the satan of your Rev 12:7 or 20:10 – it is the Great Red Dragon of Rev 12:3
The Great Red Dragon was never FRIENDLY with God as you claim in Ezk 28
It appeared fully formed – in a plurality 10 horns and 7 crowns

The Great Red Dragon is not the satan of - The entire Book of Job –2 Sam 24+ 1 Chr 21 – or 1 Kings 22 – and now Num 22
The Great Red Dragon is ready to devour all – rocks, stars, mountains, time, Gen 1:1 earth from the moment of creation
The Great Red Dragon was never FRIENDLY with God as you claim in Ezk 28

Who is the Great Red Dragon – Cathars thought it was creation itself – awaiting to devour (entropy)
Nag Hammadi authors simply suggest the Great Red Dragon (Beast / First Archon) was just the first sentient creature – who was totally 100% (yester ra) –ME – I am First = SELF

What happened to the Great Red Dragon – cast to earth – Cathars say is earth/creation
Who is the Great Red Dragon – the agl says he is the devil
And the devil is the master of this WORLD – this is the devils kingdom
The devil was the first liar – (I am First)
And the devil wants to keep you in his kingdom – here be focused here in this WORLD

Can we call agl Devil or agl Beast or agl Great Red Dragon a satan – sure satan is a verb
And now Rome is all confused – cannot tell the difference between ahl satan and agl devil so they just lump it all together – call it fallen angels and makes them responsible for everything

Apr 19, 2021 14:46:12 GMT -5 @robertt said:

The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, p. 1153.1 (LeRoy Edwin Froom)
As to Satan, he is variously named Lucifer, fallen cherub, accuser of the brethren, adversary, Beelzebub, devil, enemy, evil spirit, father of lies, liar, lying spirit, murderer, old serpent, power of darkness, prince of this world, prince of devils, prince of the power of the air, god of this world, Satan, spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience, tempter, unclean spirit, wicked one.

Jesus did not come to change the Torah – but Roman Christianity rewrites Judaism to fit its new religion
Messianic Jews – cling to the words of Jesus – the Torah is not rewritten – it is added to – it is fulfilled – the rest of the story is revealed

No Jew ever saw satan as a god of anything especially evil – Jesus did not come to change that
Jesus came to add to the story – Rev 12 – the Beast and his army

ahl satan – and the Beast of Rev 12 and not the same creature let alone the same angel

[/quote]

What you presented was totally different, saying the OT Hebrew says "satan" is a different meaning to the NT Greek "satanas". In fact you say they are totally different created creatures....
Correct Robert – I am not a satan believer as all Catholic are required to be
Jews have one God and a promise
Messianic Jews have one God who is the promise (Messiah)
You say Christianity is the same religion – but there are more than one god and it cannot be Jesus and one of your gods is satan – HOW CAN THIS BE THE SAME RELIGION?

1) an angel (Hebrew satan doing the Lord's will) and 2) archon (made to be RA and thus does Self) this satanas (NT Greek) is what the devil is all about.

Ok - It is obvious that you cannot let go of your bias – archon made to be RA
So – the function of cows, horses, birds, and lambs is to do ra – what a sick impression you have of nature –
You say – you embrace Rom 1:19-20 – but all you can see is ra
All the self-driven animals are here only to do ra
God created all the animals only to do ra – that is their function
This ra sickness you have clouds you view

A dog is man’s best friend – but you demand that a dog was created only to do ra
Scripture tells me – dogs, cows, and birds just do what they do – instinct – self preservation
I do not see any evil in dogs, cows, birds, or archon
You just keep repeating - archon made to be RA – hoping you can make it true
You demand that your bias must come first – no matter what scripture says

SO not only do you have different meanings for the Hebrew word, which is also the Greek word, you also give the word as coming from two entirely different creature beings.
Correct Hebrew satan is a descriptive term for the heavenly prosecutor in the service of God – helping God – helping to facilitate God’s Will on earth
In each and every ahl example – satan is working for the Lord and opposing man

You – on the other hand have failed to answer – why is it a sin for ahl satan to obey God?
When will you answer this question?

Jul 2, 2021 1:43:00 GMT -5 Dave said:

D- Job was righteous - why was he afflicted - he believed
R" Job was afflicted because GOD wanted to answer every possible accusation the Opposer could throw at GOD's salvation process.
YES – Thank you for finally admitting it – God tested Job
How did God test Job – he sent satan after Job
Satan obeyed God and opposed Job
Satan – God’s loyal servant – obeyed God – did what God wanted – for God
And you refuse to answer why it is a sin for satan to obey God

You cannot answer my question because it conflicts with your bias
You bias demand that ahl satan be evil and a sinner and opposing God – yet scripture fail to support your doctrine

2Sam24 +1Chr21 does not support your bias
1Kings22 does not support your bias
The entire Book of Job does not fit your bias

Either scripture is wrong – or your bias is wrong

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(the Hebrew word satan is the same Greek word satanas, the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek - so the same meaning must apply to OT and NT)

WOW – I am so glad you said this
Of course – I am going to say – you are absolutely correct and completely wrong at the same time
Obviously – in all of your honest and opined minded study all you can see is you bias

Just did a search for satan in KJV+ - each and every ahl satan = H7854
H7854 – שָׂטָן - śâṭân - From H7853; an opponent;
H7853 – שָׂטַן - śâṭan - A primitive root; to attack,

H7854 is of Hebrew origin - The KJV translates Strong's H7854 in the following manner: Satan (19x), adversary (7x), withstand (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage = adversary, one who withstands, adversary (in general - personal or national), superhuman adversary

If you employ your Robert method to the Hebrew only – satan always = satan and always is a servant of the Lord helping to facilitate God’s Will

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the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek - so the same meaning must apply to OT and NT)
WOW – I am so glad you said this

I just did a search for satan in the agl - ONLY ONE VERSE

2Co 12:6 For if I should want to boast, I would not be foolish—for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, so that no one may think more of me than what he sees in me or hears from me—
2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.

G4566 - Σατᾶν – Satan - Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan,

Is this use consistent with the heavenly prosecutor – a reminder not to sin

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the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek - so the same meaning must apply to OT and NT)
WOW – I am so glad you said this

I just did a search for satanas in the agl - Which appears in every other agl verse

G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil:

the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek –wrong
The chaldeans believed in satans long before the agl was written

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What you presented was totally different, saying the OT Hebrew says "satan" is a different meaning to the NT Greek "satanas". In fact you say they are totally different created creatures....

Correct
H7854 is of Hebrew origin - The KJV translates Strong's H7854 in the following manner: Satan (19x), adversary (7x), withstand (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage = adversary, one who withstands, adversary (in general - personal or national), superhuman adversary

Has absolutely nothing do do with – or have anything in common with

G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil:

Satanas is a pagan god brought into Christianity to confuse Catholics
And you are the very proof

During the time of the ahl – there are two groups of men on earth
The 1% God’s chosen people who were given the Torah and know YHWY as the One True God
And the 99% - who did not know YHWY and fell for any spiritual being claiming to be a god

Who are the ‘other gods’ non-God gods of the 99% -

Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.
Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done?
Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”

Who are the ‘other gods’ non-God gods of the 99% - Answer
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

(second there is no mention of archon, arche as you claim, meaning a different creature; this is also a Hebrew word meaning beginning, as in Jude, the angels that left their beginnings , also rev 12 does not mention arche in war with Michael and his angels, does it?)
I say the PRINCIPALITIES of the agl do definitely exist – and they are our real struggle

You ignore Bible verses that suggest a different view.
Re 20:2 lists all the words into ONE creature that sinned long before man sinned.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan (G4567 satanas) and bound him a thousand years,

I do not ignore this verse at all – I simply understand that this verse is referring to pagan gods – other gods – non-God gods – pseudo gods – gods of the Chaldeans

But since to defer to Rome and the Catholic authority – you cannot tell the difference between pagan gods and Messianic Judaism – Just because you call it SDA Christianity doesn’t make it Christian and does not make pagan gods relevant / important / scary / threatening / or evil – it only makes them things of the WORLD

You can believe what you want - that is Free Will
But you promote a pagan god as a full part of your Christian Controversy
satanas is a chaldean god adopted into Roman Catholicism
Ellen White promote a pagan god as a full part of Christianity

You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
Roman Christians do not undestand Judaism - or the Levant or Judges 2:4 or the Nephilim - or the Rephiem

For you to suggest that the pagan god satanas is of hebrew origin is absolute error based only in Roman bias

Jun 5, 2020 22:39:50 GMT -5 Richard said:

Dear Robert

Jun 5, 2020 18:55:58 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Dave writes: "See – you have two Kings and two gods
Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that?

Everything is wrong with that. This is the adopted theology of the Zoroastrians, brought into Christianity by the Catholic Church.

You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
The Jews spent the entire ahl struggling adainst these pagan gods and thier religions that infiltrate Jewish culture

Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.
Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done?
Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”

You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
The Jews spent the entire ahl struggling adainst these pagan gods and thier religions that infiltrate Jewish culture

[Dave]

You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
The Jews spent the entire ahl struggling against these pagan gods and thier religions that infiltrate Jewish culture

Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you.
Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done?
Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”

You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
The Jews spent the entire ahl struggling against these pagan gods and thier religions that infiltrate Jewish culture

Chaldean pagan god satanas is an archon – an ‘other god’ /a non-God god / a false god
Chaldean god satanas is a shedim – from Beelzebub

In these ‘other’ religions – satanas is not a god of evil
In the pagan religion of the Lavant – Baal or Molech did not have another god in opposition
In ‘other’ religions god is happy or not – so just keep god happy
In ‘other’ religions – they do not have a god of evil – they have poltergeist – spirits – kachinas – mimi spirits – spirit of the wind – spirits of disease – and spirits that just cause trouble
But – none of these evil spirit want worship – want to be a god – they just do what they do

King Solomon – describes the shedim as offspring of Belzeebub – none of them were evil and desired worship – they just did what they did – some control the wind – some control disease – and some just cause trouble

Chaldean other god = Allah and his satan called Iblis

YES Robert the religion of selfishness – WORLD – of archon existed from the very beginning of humanity
YES Robert the pagan religion of self = Gen 6 and is the opposition side in Gen 3:15

No one before the agl believed in your satan god – except the pagan Chaldeans

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Eze 8:1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me.
Eze 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
Eze 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
Eze 8:4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
Eze 8:5 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
Eze 8:6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
Eze 8:7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
Eze 8:8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
Eze 8:9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
Eze 8:10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
Eze 8:11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
Eze 8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
Eze 8:13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
Eze 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
Eze 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

What is the Abomination – the worship of Tammuz in the temple
Who is Tammuz – he is the pagan god fathered by Nimrod who was killed by a bore at age 40
This is why his followers weep for him for 40 days – (Catholic lent)
Who was born on Dec 25th (winter equinox) (Catholic Christmas)
Whose mother Ishtar came to earth at the spring equinox (Catholic Easter) changed a bird into an egg laying rabbit to prover her divinity

YES Robert Roman Catholicism and it’s diluted protestant version has nothing to do with Judaism – or Messianic Judaism – and everything to do with pagan Chaldean worship of ‘other-gods’

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

D" Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
And your answer with an assumption – anyone opposing man is opposing God
So - The entire Book of Job –2 Sam 24+ 1 Chr 21 – or 1 Kings 22 – and now Num 22
God is opposing man so God is opposing God – and your assumption fails

ahl satan is God’s heavenly prosecutor as in Zec 3
a servant of the Lord helping to facilitate God’s Will on earth
sometimes God’s Will on earth requires a deceiving spirit
YOU will not answer the question – why is it a sin to be God’s servant?
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D" Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God

Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(1) God placed restrictions upon man. A law requiring obedience. A test of loyalty.

Why? Obviously this test proves TOV and RA already exists on earth (in limited form), but the RA is unleashed under a different ruler (after Adam sins), because there are TWO trees in the garden.

The tree of life is the tree where GOD imparts living to those who eat.

The other tree is called the tree of good and evil, or as Jeff explains "function and dysfunction".

A tree is a symbol of a living being, a living organization, a power of some sort under the administration of God.

So there is the beginning of an answer that opposes your view, that if GOD created both good and evil, why is there only ONE tree, instead there are TWO trees.

Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field

subtil, crafty, cunning, sly, sneeky, all words of crookedness, of RA, or about sinning, dysfunction.

The snake itself is not RA, nor the dragon, or flying serpent depicted here, so the power enters this animal for a reason to speak to Eve.... Who is this power?

The power that enters the harmless serpent is subtil, crafty, cunning, sly, sneeky, all words of crookedness, of RA, or about sinning, dysfunction.

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

There are two lies spoken here, that symbolize an opposing power (1) that you do not die and (2) it's OK for God's creatures to know both tov and ra. But you say the serpent never sinned here speaking to Eve.

Looking further into the torah of Moses, which Dave is asking for, and yes this is the correct thing to do...

Who is this power that opposes God? even lies about GOD?

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way "to oppose" him.

God is opposing Baalim here. This is a clue. Notice the DIVINE opposes the creature. Why? Because Baalim is a sinful prophet, and would have cursed Israel rather than blessed Israel.

Is GOD really opposing the MAN, or opposing the SINFUL nature in the MAN? Obviously God hates the SIN, and loves the creature, but hates the sinning the creature choices to do.

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D"and now Num 22
God is opposing man so God is opposing God – and your assumption fails

R" Dave is assuming the word oppose/opposer, can have a secular meaning ? Is this true?
Of does the word oppose/opposer refer always to the idea of sin, or ra (the fruit of sin) in other words some idea of dysfunction?

Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.

This verse add to my hypothesis already. The opposers oppose because they do ra, while GOD loves only those who do tov.

Ps 71:13 Deliver me from those who do rasha, who transgress, who sin, who do ra, who oppose my soul, this prayer is speaking about.

Ps 109:4 They (who who sin) fight against me without a cause, they oppose me, They reward tov with ra, .
Wow fancy that, the word satan in both verb and noun forms is always about opposing sin and ra and those doing dysfunction.

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Here is a verse, is Satan here only meaning to oppose for a secular reason, or again is the opposing about sin, ra and dysfunction?

What is a high priest for? For cleansing sinners of their sin, so they are declared without sin.

What is this opposer here for? To oppose the cleansing process, to declare the sinners are not without sin.

Notice GOD rebukes the opposer for opposing the sin process of cleansing sinners.

1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Why did an oppose stand up to provoke David? And in other verse God also provoke David. Because David wanted to sin.

Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Why was sons of God here with GOD on a particular day? This is an anointed time, a feast day. So what are feast days for? For the joyous time of God creating man, and the process of God creating a salvation process for cleansing man of sinning.

God declared to the opposer Job was especially perfect and blameless before GOD.

However true to this Hebrew word, the opposer opposed this idea.

Now you twist the book to say a prosecutor is supposed to oppose the justice system in court of law.
Hmm? A defence lawyer shows the judge the person is cleansed from all charges. A prosecutor is supposed to argue such a confessing of sin-offering never too place, and the person is guilty of sinning.

Both the defence lawyer and the prosecuting lawyer are to be themselves obedient and sinless before GOD, the judge. Is the so called prosecutor sinless before the judge? Hell no. In fact the prosecutor is the power actually influencing humans to hurt Job so Job sins before God. That is NOT the function of prosecutor. We call that a conflict of interest.

It's ridiculous to even entertain the idea. the NT corrects this silly idea, and calls the opposer an accuser of the brethren, which is what we expect the verb and noun word to be. A prosecutor is not supposed to promote sinning and transgression. In fact no where in Scripture is there any picture of a prosecutor helping God convict sinners of sinning. What a silly idea.

God knows the inner heart of every creature and need no help from creatures. Whoever entertains this idea is being deceived.

Ps 109:6 ¶ Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Again the term is always used in the context of sin, ra and dysfunction. These things oppose GOD and thus GOD opposes these things as well.

So it's over to you Dave, show me a purely secular context of oppose/opposer. There isn't one.

There is no Bible text showing two tennis players who are opposing each other and having a friendly match. The Hebrew word is not considered for this secular idea. The word was invented by GOD to express the idea that some creatures oppose GOD because they sin and do ra, and thus cause GOD to create the dysfunction these sinners demand.

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R" How you come up with this twisting, I don't know. The messenger of GOD, ie Jesus, is opposing the Human for a reason, because this is normally a sinning prophet.

So we have here in Moses torah, GOD opposing MAN. So the reverse must be true, MAN opposes GOD, especially if MAN is a sinning creature, like Baalim is.

The question we now ask, are there any other sinning creatures apart from MAN?

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a "saraph" , and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
The word saraph meaning burning, a quality that God is as well.

Ge 3:24 Cherubims, and a flaming sword - Notice the burning sword is other Hebrew words

Nu 7:89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.

God speaks between two cherubs upon the mercy seat... these are other creatures closest to God.
Outside of Moses torah we have

2Sa 6:2 the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
1Ki 6:23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree,

Solomon made two trees into symbols of the cherubs, just as symbols of saraph.

Eze 10:1 cherub are creatures nearest GOD as saraph beings of burning
Eze 28:16 one cherub closest to God began to do sinning, and thus began an opposing of God.

Sin by definition opposes God.

So RA by definition, the fruit of sinning, also opposes GOD.

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D" You do not have to know anything to accept Jesus is the Christ
But if you preach to me – you better get it right and prove your point – or- I am just going to call you an agent of the Roman Myth – a Catholic - a believer in a different religion that Messianic Judaism – a different religion where satan is promoted to godhood and our real struggle is denied – in fact you suggest that the agents of our real struggle do not even exist


R" Dave, I do not deny our real struggle. I do not deny the agents of RA either, you change them to be creatures not even written in Scripture. What are arche? archons? mere Greek misreadings? I see the word meaning "beginning" or "the first in time" or the first in place, as you told be before?

If you want to put a creature-kind unto this arche, go looking for this in the torah, but no, you look for answers in the Gnostic writings. That is your error. You do not support Torah at all.

I do not deny devils, or Satan who is a leader of millions of devils. You are the one who denies the agents of RA, making up stories these beings had offspring from mankind? And your evidence is based on a phrase "sons of eloiym" used out of context, where other Bible verses suggest different meaning?

You have a 6 second war in heaven, but acknowledge this contest of archon war on earth?

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D" Who is the Great Red Dragon – Cathars thought it was creation itself – awaiting to devour (entropy)
Nag Hammadi authors simply suggest the Great Red Dragon (Beast / First Archon) was just the first sentient creature – who was totally 100% (yester ra) –ME – I am First = SELF

What happened to the Great Red Dragon – cast to earth – Cathars say is earth/creation
Who is the Great Red Dragon – the agl says he is the devil
And the devil is the master of this WORLD – this is the devils kingdom
The devil was the first liar – (I am First)
And the devil wants to keep you in his kingdom – here be focused here in this WORLD


R" Prove to me the great red dragon is some archon creature God made to sin intentionally? And DO NOT use your Gnostic writings? You can't? Because such a concept does not exist.

Your claim the dragon is not friendly to God, is great

But you make it than into an archon, a different creature not mentioned in Scripture.

D"" The Great Red Dragon was never FRIENDLY with God as you claim in Ezk 28
R' So Dave for the fourth time why do you ignore simple torah Scripture?
Interesting words Dave, but you didn't answer my question.

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the fourth time I have asked you)
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?

Do you have trouble with this verse, and ignore the simple reading of it?

D" The Great Red Dragon is not the satan of - The entire Book of Job –2 Sam 24+ 1 Chr 21 – or 1 Kings 22 – and now Num 22
The Great Red Dragon is ready to devour all – rocks, stars, mountains, time, Gen 1:1 earth from the moment of creation
R" See you come up with another creature designed and created by GOD intentionally to sin, but this is not sin, because GOD created the creature intentionally to do RA.

So you have creature wanting "to eat" God's creation and this idea is OK to you?

And you say this:

The Great Red Dragon was never FRIENDLY with God

OH so the dragon is opposing GOD?

How can this be Dave, if GOD created the archon to be doing ra for testing purposes, so it's not a sin to obey GOD is it? according to you, yet now you say the archon is not friendly with God? Duh , God made the archon this way, so do not write your words this way, you are confused

The Great Red Dragon was created naturally doing RA.

The Great Red Dragon was created naturally doing sin, but this is not accounted as sin because the archon has no free will, programmed to be unfriendly to both God and Man.

So this Dragon was placed in the Garden to test sinless humans who only have free will?

Is this fair? If this dragon is programmed for sin and ra, and God created it this way, than sin and ra is no longer a free will result of disobendience? BUT only for those creatures who have free will? I see a creation conflict here, making GOD creating some creatures as robots and man as free will?

How much programming does the dragon have? It seems the dragon learns over time to do more ra, and does not do ultimate ra from the first day ? This learning of ra and sin, suggests intelligence, but not free will? Boy you have a strange idea of creatures created by God?

D" who was totally 100% (yester ra) –ME – I am First = SELF
R" Oh so SELF can be created by GOD? BUT this does not require free will?

SO what exactly is free will choosing sin all about, if every aspect of SIN, RA and dysfunction can be created in robotic creatures already. yet these creatures do not have accountable sins, only man does?
I thought when Adam sinned, God cursed the creation, implying sin does have fruits.
But you are saying GOD can create a flawed creation (ra and robotic ra creatures on purpose) without free will choosing anything? Your whole idea makes no sense.

D" And now Rome is all confused – cannot tell the difference between ahl satan and agl devil so they just lump it all together – call it fallen angels and makes them responsible for everything
R" so is this your answer? we are confused?

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the fifth time I have asked you)

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?
Do you have trouble with this verse, and ignore the simple reading of it?


D" No Jew ever saw satan as a god of anything especially evil – Jesus did not come to change that
Jesus came to add to the story – Rev 12 – the Beast and his army
R " you have cheek?
Jesus accused the Jews having the Devil ruling over them as a Father of SIn (John 8)
And who is this devil?

Dave quotes me "The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, p. 1153.1 (LeRoy Edwin Froom)
As to Satan, he is variously named Lucifer, fallen cherub, accuser of the brethren, adversary, Beelzebub, devil, enemy, evil spirit, father of lies, liar, lying spirit, murderer, old serpent, power of darkness, prince of this world, prince of devils, prince of the power of the air, god of this world, Satan, spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience, tempter, unclean spirit, wicked one".

Prove me the dragon is not the same as Satan Dave, using the torah only...
Begin with this simple verse:

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the Sixth time I have asked you)
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?
Do you have trouble with this verse, and ignore the simple reading of it?

D" Messianic Jews have one God who is the promise (Messiah)
R" so Jesus is merely the Father in a different expression? Where is the poetry similes for this idea Dave? Do you have any in Scripture?

Father and Son for Abraham. This simile opposes your view

My name is in Him, who forgives sin. This simile opposes your view

The memrah is with the Father, what is His Name? The Son who know's? This simile opposes your view

The Father and the Mother functions come over Mary to born a Son in here? Again a simile that is close to humans, that opposes your view, certainly not the Father coming over Mary split into two expressions of the Father?

The Son speaks and prays words to a Father in heaven. a simile that opposes your expression idea the Father on earth is praying and speaking to the Father in heaven?

Show me some of your similes in Scripture? Do you have any?

D" Ok - It is obvious that you cannot let go of your bias – archon made to be RA
So – the function of cows, horses, birds, and lambs is to do ra – what a sick impression you have of nature –
You say – you embrace Rom 1:19-20 – but all you can see is ra
All the self-driven animals are here only to do ra
God created all the animals only to do ra – that is their function
This ra sickness you have clouds you view

A dog is man’s best friend – but you demand that a dog was created only to do ra
Scripture tells me – dogs, cows, and birds just do what they do – instinct – self preservation
I do not see any evil in dogs, cows, birds, or archon
R" You have a flawed world, that it's OK for dogs and cows to do what they are programmed for, both tov and ra.
I do not have that idea. Dogs and cows were created tov. The ra in them came when God cursed creation because Adam sinned. Do you also ignore that verse?

Ge 3:17 ...cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

So was the ground only cursed, or all of Creation, or is the ground the foundation for all creation?



D"You just keep repeating - archon made to be RA – hoping you can make it true
R" so GOD didn't create the archon to do RA and thus sin, have you changed your mind?

D" Correct Hebrew satan is a descriptive term for the heavenly prosecutor in the service of God – helping God –
R Really show me your Scripture verse Dave of this idea?

God does not need creatures to help him judge sin. Some creatures are helping themselves see what sinning is about, so as to avoid sinning themselves... so where are your texts...that almighty GOD needs creatures to help Him JUDGE sin?

R"R" Job was afflicted because GOD wanted to answer every possible accusation the Opposer could throw at GOD's salvation process.
D" YES – Thank you for finally admitting it – God tested Job
How did God test Job – he sent satan after Job
Satan obeyed God and opposed Job
R" You have trouble reading my sentences, you are biased, looking for your view repeated back to you.


D"You bias demand that ahl satan be evil and a sinner and opposing God – yet scripture fail to support your doctrine
R" Dave every context of the verb and noun Hebrew word satan, is opposing sin, ra and dysfunction. There is not a secular context of this word for a friendly tennis match where players oppose each other, such a secular meaning is not mentioned anywhere for this Hebrew word. So the word always means to oppose/opposer, and in reference to sin, ra or trangression.

D"WOW – I am so glad you said this
Of course – I am going to say – you are absolutely correct and completely wrong at the same time
R" so provide examples Dave

D" H7854 is of Hebrew origin - The KJV translates Strong's H7854 in the following manner: Satan (19x), adversary (7x), withstand (1x).

R" WHere is the example of withstand (1x) ?

Satan and adversary are essentially the same, ie oppose/opposer

Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand "satan" thee, because thy way is perverse before me: (KJV)

Nu 22:32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to "oppose" thee, because thy way is perverse before me: (Rob's translation)

Notice Dave if you use "oppose/opposer" the same word, same meaning fits all the sentences better than the KJV does. I do not have Satan (19x), adversary (7x), withstand (1x). I have one meaning for all the verb and noun contexts, "oppose/opposer"


D" Outline of Biblical Usage = adversary, one who withstands, adversary (in general - personal or national), superhuman adversary
R" I like to keep English simple Dave, isn't an adversary one who "opposes" you? Please answer my question, let's keep the translation process simple, and child like.

D" If you employ your Robert method to the Hebrew only – satan always = satan and always is a servant of the Lord helping to facilitate God’s Will
R" Hell no Dave, because if you study "oppose/opposer" the context is always about "sin or ra or transgression", and these "things GOD hates". Do you agree with this ? Hence "oppose/opposer" must be something also GOD "hates".


R"the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek - so the same meaning must apply to OT and NT)
D" WOW – I am so glad you said this
I just did a search for satan in the agl - ONLY ONE VERSE
R" Are you a serious Greek scholar or what Dave?

4566. satan Satan, sat-an'
Search for 4566 in KJV
of Hebrew origin (7854); Satan, i.e. the devil:--Satan. Compare 4567.
See Greek 4567 (Satanas)
See Hebrew 07854 (satan)

And for

4567. satanav Satanas, sat-an-as'
Search for 4567 in KJV
of Chaldee origin corresponding to 4566 (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil:--Satan.
See Hebrew 04566 (ma`bad)

R" You are the expert in Greek, why the different Strong's for Satan and Satanas?

So is The Hebrew satan one word and the other with hey-satan?

It's still the same word, same meaning, only prefix, or affix, adds extra meaning??

The thorns in Paul's side were Jews who disagreed with Paul, made trouble, functioned like an accuser, inspired by the Satan accuser, agents of Satan.


R"the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek
D" –wrong, The chaldeans believed in satans long before the agl was written
R" Are you reading my words correctly?, so brief , so confused. I am talking about Greek, you speak of the Babylonians, we are not talking about the same people even?

Please explain? You hardly ever explain....

------------------------------

R' What you presented was totally different, saying the OT Hebrew says "satan" is a different meaning to the NT Greek "satanas". In fact you say they are totally different created creatures....

D" Correct
H7854 is of Hebrew origin - The KJV translates Strong's H7854 in the following manner: Satan (19x), adversary (7x), withstand (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage = adversary, one who withstands, adversary (in general - personal or national), superhuman adversary

Has absolutely nothing do do with – or have anything in common with

G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil:

Satanas is a pagan god brought into Christianity to confuse Catholics
And you are the very proof
R" WOW Dave, we do not even agree to the WORDS in our Bibles.

What's to stop you reading the GREEK words always differently to HEBREW words, so invent different meanings to suit a brand new religion, as you present?

Consider this BOOK

"Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?
A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of
Aramaic Peshitta Primacy, Compiled by Christopher Lancaster "

shows hundreds of errors in the NT Greek, proving the Greek is a translation of Hebrew/ Aramaic

And to prove this idea?

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge?
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

The Bible predicts that the Hebrew message gospel goes out in another tongue. This means the NT Hebrew went out as a translation into NT Greek, not ordinary Greek but invented Greek to meet the translation process so the Greeks could read Hebrew in their own language.

Isa 28:12 ...and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 ...; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The NT Greek makes some fall backward and snares them.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Jesus is a foundation stone for His words, which are similes of stones.

Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet:

You align the Greek words using a plumb bob against the Hebrew words with the same meaning, over the foundation words of Jesus.

Isa 28:23 ¶ Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

DO you hear this Dave? DO you understand where you are wrong? Greek NT words are NOT different to the Hebrew OT words, they must have the same meanings....



Dave replies" Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan (G4567 satanas) and bound him a thousand years,
I do not ignore this verse at all – I simply understand that this verse is referring to pagan gods – other gods – non-God gods – pseudo gods – gods of the Chaldeans


R" Oh I see. So this Satanas is a different being? OK 33 Greek verses use satanas, let's see who this being is

Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan:

So this satanas is the same being as the diabolos. You agree I take it?


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

SO this satanas/diabolos was a father of lies from the beginning/..... beginning of what Dave?

Before the CHaldeans or long before the CHalddeans? When ? You tell me?

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

SO Michael went to Moses grave to awaken Moses (I thought you said Moses has a spirit? so why does Michael have to go to the earth where Moses was laid to raise both body and spirit?)

Notice this satanas/diabolos is here to oppose Michael, yet of Chaldean origin? Really? How far back does the beginning go in time?

Heb 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Here is satanas/diabolos , who is a being with the power of death.

wow. how far is this beginning now? At the time of Adam and Eve,?

I thought you said this is of Chaldean origin times? Hardly

Do the so called false gods of Babylonians have powers of death? Hardly . Dave you have made a tragic mistake.


D" you cannot tell the difference between pagan gods
R I could say the same thing of you Dave. You are not following even the Greek verses.


D" satanas is a chaldean god adopted into Roman Catholicism
R What a half truth... Dave. Just look at the Greek verses I have presented already - you are missing all the verses...all the truth...

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

SO Jesus only came to destroy the works of the pagan gods of Babylonian times. Is that your beginning?

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

WOW what a verse here, this dragon/serpent also called devil and satanas, has angels cast unto earth with him.


Explain away this verse Dave?

What doesn't the verse say "has arche with him" instead says "has messengers with him" meaning angels.
dragon=serpent-satanas=devil go figure

What's the Greek different in meaning to satanas and satan in Greek ? Nothing as I see. You are straw picking.


D" You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
R Really?

Quote"

A Jewish Rabbi and Ellen White

As told by Elfred Lee (Biography of Elfred Lee, artist): dialogue.adventist.org/articles/07_1_rasi_e.htm

Rabbi Josef (Joe) Kagan is an Eastern European Jew. His family immigrated to the United States when he was still a quite young. Musically gifted and born with a beautiful singing voice, he made his debut at age 13 in New York's famous Carnegie Hall. He later became a cantor, and then a rabbi. Several years later, he also became a member of the research staff of the then-Governor Ronald Reagan in Sacramento.

For a long time, Rabbi Kagan had very negative feelings towards Christianity and Christians because of an unfortunate incident which occurred in Europe when he was still a child; an aunt was raped by some "Christian" while a priest who held a crucifix stood over her said: "This is what you get for killing Christ." Because of his animosity as a result of her aunt's having been violated by some "Christians", he refused to touch the New Testament for a long time. However, he knew the Jewish Old Testament [Torah] extremely well as a highly-educated rabbi. Fortunately, he later learned that American Christians are not at all like her aunt's European "Christian" assaulters.

It was in 1978 at the Weimar Institute in Weimar, California where Rabbi Kagan and I got acquainted. He was already getting up in years then. After our initial meeting, my family and I developed a beautiful friendship with Joe, his wife, and his son. As our friendship blossomed, we started to study the Bible together and read some of Ellen White's books.

It was during one of our Bible study sessions that he told us an interesting story about how he somehow got hold of a book called Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen G. White. After reading it, he was very impressed at the way it was written, and wanted to know who this Ellen White was. And then he asked my wife and me: "Who is this Ellen G. White anyway? What university did she attend? "When we told him that she had a third grade education only, he was amazed "Then, where did she learn Hebrew?" he further inquired. We told him that, to our knowledge, she did not learn any Hebrew. The more he became amazed.

He told us that the information in the book is mishnaic, and the Mishnah, which is part of the Hebrew scholarship, was translated into English only in the 1940s, and that only high-level rabbis are acquainted with the information in the Mishnah.

Joe further told us that, what Ellen White wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets was the history of his [Jewish] people and it was very accurate. Moreover, one had to know Hebrew to be able to write like the way she did; her sentence structure was Hebrew---the rhythm, the meter, the arrangement of words and expressions, she wrote as if she was a Hebrew and her writing was just translated into English. Then he surprisingly told us: “I am convinced that Ellen White was inspired by the same source that inspired the Hebrew prophets. Now, I am ready to become a Christian and accept Jesus Christ as my Messiah." I somehow feel that even though the Hebrew Scripture is full of prophecies pointing to the Messiah, it took Ellen White's writings to prove to him that Jesus Christ was indeed the fulfillment of all the Hebrew messianic prophecies.

And only then did Joe finally pick up the New Testament and read about Jesus Christ, the Messiah, who was a Jew! Many times, I have seen Joe shed tears---for whatever reason, I don't know and I never felt comfortable enough to ask; so, let's just say, I'd like to believe that it is probably because of "his joy in finally finding the Lord". Before Joe and I got acquainted, I was commissioned to paint a mural called "Christ, The Way of Life" for the world headquarters of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in Silver Spring, Maryland, just outside Washington, DC. And when Joe and I met, I was in the middle of painting the mural. The painting is based on another artwork originally "inspired" by Ellen and James White, who had commissioned an engraver to do a black and white drawing of the same subject. For some reason, Joe became very interested in the painting, and he confirmed [to me] that Ellen & James White's concept about the whole plan of salvation as written in both the Old and New Testament was very accurate, but that somehow the engraver had misrepresented her concepts. And for some reason Joe became "quite involved" with the painting to the point where he helped me in making the details of the painting historically and theologically accurate, especially those regarding the sanctuary, the Hebrew writing on the cross, and the scene of the last supper. It was Joe who suggested to paint Jesus and His disciples in an oriental style scene, sitting on mats on the floor---not on Roman couches like some of the European artists did. He also recommended that the heads of Christ and the disciples should be covered, and to make sure that I painted the wine, the unleavened bread, and the bitter herbs "according to the exact symbols" that they were supposed to represent. Joe even made the first "stamp of approval" of the whole painting before its official unveiling.

In late 1979, the painting was unveiled during a ceremony at the Auburn [California] Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Joe even wrote a song based on one of Jesus' last words on the cross: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" [My God, My God why have You forsaken me?] to go with the painting. And at the unveiling, seated at the organ, Joe sang---his entire body shook as he sang and openly wept. His singing was so beautiful and so moving that there was not one dry eye in the congregation that day.

The original painting now hangs in the new Seventh-Day Adventist world headquarters in Maryland. I could never have done the mural accurately and correctly without the inspiration of Rabbi Joe Kagan and Ellen White. I wish they were still alive!

On Saturday, December 22, 1979, my wife and I were at Joe's secret baptism in the Bear River near Sacramento. There were only four of us present---the minister, Joe, my wife, and I. For whatever his reason might be, he decided not to tell his wife and son that he had become a Christian. As he came up out of the cold water praising God and singing to his new Messiah, he said, "I am now a completed Jew. I have now accepted the Old and New Testament and the Messiah that all Jewish prophets talked about!"

On a recent trip to Europe where I presented workshops on art and some of my archeological work in the Middle East. I happened to meet a Jewish family from Israel. Shalom David is originally from Iraq and his wife is from Chile, and they have become Christians. They are attending college in Europe. Shalom David and his wife invited me to their home for supper on Friday night [Shabbat]. It was a most enjoyable evening as he, his wife and their beautiful children sang and celebrated the arrival of Sabbath as Jews have done for thousands of years. As we ate, I told them the story of Rabbi Kagan, and they got very excited. Shalom said, "Believe it or not, the same thing happened to me! I would have rather burned the Bible than touch it! I wanted nothing to do with Christianity, but after I read the writings of Ellen White, somehow I felt that the Spirit of God was on that woman. Her writings are as if she wrote in Hebrew. You can definitely hear the Hebrew rhythm, meter and expressions in her books. I also believe she was inspired by the same source as the Hebrew prophets. And she has helped me fall in love with Jesus Christ as my Messiah." [Let me point out that, there is presently quite a bit of opposition to Ellen White's writings in Europe.]

After returning from Europe, for some reason, I met another rabbi living here in California, Rabbi Ben, who invited me and a group of Seventh-Day Adventists for guess what? Supper on Friday evening [Shabbat], He went through the whole pre-Sabbath meal ceremony just like Rabbi Kagan and my other new found friend [Shalom David] in Europe. During the meal, I told the group about Rabbi Kagan and Shalom David's separate experiences in "accidentally" reading Ellen White's book, Patriarchs and Prophets. Surprisingly Rabbi Ben said that he had a similar experience. He hated the Bible, particularly the New Testament, until he read Ellen White's book which somehow opened his eyes and "brought him to Christ" and which helped him to read the New Testament and to fall in love with the Messiah.

Rabbi Ben's initial encounter with Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets took place while visiting one of the most influential rabbis in America, whose name he preferred not to mention [to protect the rabbi]. As the other rabbi and Rabbi Ben chatted, somehow Rabbi Ben could not help but scan the other rabbi's extensive collection of books which lined an entire wall of the other rabbi's home library, and there he saw the book Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen White. Apparently, Rabbi Ben must have previously heard or known of Ellen White because he asked the other rabbi about Ellen White's book, where he got it, and why he would have a book by a Christian author in his library. The other rabbi simply replied, "It is a very authoritative source about our history as Jewish people."

Finally, somehow the 3ABN television network people got wind of my experiences, and I was invited to share on television my encounters with the three Orthodox Jews-turned-Christian because of Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets. After my TV appearance, my telephone has rung day and night with calls from people from as far away as India and Australia telling me that they want to know more about Ellen White and the Jewish Christian converts.

Elfred Lee is a portrait artist, muralist, and painter. He has studied art in Europe and the United States. He has a doctorate in fine arts, and has taught art classes in several U.S. colleges and universities. He has also traveled worldwide and has been an illustrator and photographer for archaeological expeditions, including Frank Navarre's search of Noah's Ark."


"D" For you to suggest that the pagan god satanas is of hebrew origin is absolute error based only in Roman bias
R I suggest you read the Greek verses I showed you and comment

D" You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with you
R" Dave, Many Jews are also SDA, as the above quote I showed you/

D" Chaldean pagan god satanas is an archon – an ‘other god’ /a non-God god / a false god
Chaldean god satanas is a shedim – from Beelzebub
R" I see. Explain this than

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Diabolos/satanas is from the beginning, what beginning?

D" Chaldean god satanas is a shedim – from Beelzebub
R" Please show your Bible proof of this.

Beelzebub only 7 verses and not link diabolos or shedim.

D" King Solomon – describes the shedim as offspring of Belzeebub
R" Where? Not found in the OT.... are you going to use Gnostic source to prove this?

D" What is the Abomination – the worship of Tammuz in the temple
Who is Tammuz – he is the pagan god fathered by Nimrod who was killed by a bore at age 40
R" Yes agreed Dave, Two Babylons is a great book on this.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Diabolos/satanas is from the beginning, what beginning?

Does the term beginning only go back to Nimrod? the devil has the powers of death, Jesus came to destroy.

So beginning has to go back long before Adam sinned, long before Devil sinned.... but you have no understanding the devil even sinned in the beginning do you? Gnostic is deceiving you.

Shalom

(PS it has taken me 4 days to reply, many hours of study and serious research, 40 minutes to edit the colours so it's easier to read. )

[Dave]

D" Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
Ge 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(1) God placed restrictions upon man. A law requiring obedience. A test of loyalty.
Why? Obviously this test proves TOV and RA already exists on earth (in limited form), but the RA is unleashed under a different ruler (after Adam sins), because there are TWO trees in the garden.

Correct Robert – before Adam there was a lot of ra on the planet. Earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, and GENERATIONS of – birth – life – death – and rebirth life cycle

Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

The other tree is called the tree of good and evil, or as Jeff explains "function and dysfunction".
THIS IS A LIE
You are making a false assumption to fit your doctrine
Gen 2:17 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,…
IT IS THE GNOSIS BETWEEN TOV AND RA – it is the curse of knowing better


Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
subtil, crafty, cunning, sly, sneeky, all words of crookedness, of RA, or about sinning, dysfunction.
1 Kings 22 God asked for a spirit to voltmeter to be a deceiving spirit
Why is it a sin to obey God – to do God’s Will

The snake itself is not RA, nor the dragon, or flying serpent depicted here, so the power enters this animal for a reason to speak to Eve.... Who is this power?
It is the WORLD that is waiting to consume
It is the Great Red Dragon and his army that is waiting to consume
It is the Great Red Dragon, and his Devil, who is the serpent, who is satanans – created beings of the WORLD

Ge 3:4 -5
There are two lies spoken here, that symbolize an opposing power (1) that you do not die and (2) it's OK for God's creatures to know both tov and ra. But you say the serpent never sinned here speaking to Eve.

So you deny – that even if man sins – there is repentance and forgiveness – a Divine Pardoon – salvation from our sins and all men will die in the Lake of Fire – because all men are sinners
You call this a lie - Christian

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way "to oppose" him.
God is opposing Baalim here. This is a clue. Notice the DIVINE opposes the creature. Why? Because Baalim is a sinful prophet, and would have cursed Israel rather than blessed Israel.
Yep – just like a heavenly prosecutor not allowing the unworthy to enter heaven
----------
D"and now Num 22
God is opposing man so God is opposing God – and your assumption fails
R" Dave is assuming the word oppose/opposer, can have a secular meaning ? Is this true?
Of does the word oppose/opposer refer always to the idea of sin, or ra (the fruit of sin) in other words some idea of dysfunction?
So – you have totally given up you zero polysemy absolute.

Ps 38:20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.
This verse add to my hypothesis already. The opposers oppose because they do ra, while GOD loves only those who do tov.

The opposers oppose because they do ra – Correct – not obeying the Law (once given to you) is chata
You are not obeying the Law – therefore God instruction
You are choose (yester ra) WORLD over (yester tov) God

while GOD loves only those who do tov.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;

So your God does not love any man?
I Thought you preached a Feel Good God that loves everyone
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
You deny the GRACE OF GOD – that will redeems us even tho we are all sinners

Ps 71:13 Deliver me from those who do rasha, who transgress, who sin, who do ra, who oppose my soul, this prayer is speaking about.
Other men – the bad influences in our lives
The archon that make the WORLD attractive – lust, desire, greed, SELF = (yester ra)

Zec 3:1 ¶ - Joshua is on trial – satan is right there to accuse his as a prosecutor
God – tells the prosecutor – stop accusing Joshua of his sin
Because - God forgave Joshua – Joshua was given a Divine Pardon - Salvation/deliverance from his sin
Too bad you never learned this concept as a Christian

1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Why did an oppose stand up to provoke David? And in other verse God also provoke David. Because David wanted to sin.
YES – satan is in service to God helping facilitate God Will
Correct I agree

God declared to the opposer Job was especially perfect and blameless before GOD.
YES HE DID

Jul 2, 2021 1:43:00 GMT -5 Dave said:

D- Job was righteous - why was he afflicted - he believed
R" Job was afflicted because GOD wanted to answer every possible accusation the Opposer could throw at GOD's salvation process.
YES – Thank you for finally admitting it – God tested Job
How did God test Job – he sent satan after Job
Satan obeyed God and opposed Job
Satan – God’s loyal servant – obeyed God – did what God wanted – for God
And you refuse to answer why it is a sin for satan to obey God

Ps 109:6 ¶ Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
Again the term is always used in the context of sin, ra and dysfunction.
And satan the heavenly prosecutor is right there to accuse him of his sin

----------------------------
The question we now ask, are there any other sinning creatures apart from MAN?
Sure – the bane elohiym once they took on flesh and (yester ra) desire and lust after woman

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a "saraph"
Num 21:6  So Adonai sent poisonous serpents among the people,
and the evil spirits were 100% under God's control
God used them as a tool
The evil spirits were not opposing God = they bothered man
----------------

R" Dave, I do not deny our real struggle. I do not deny the agents of RA either, you change them to be creatures not even written in Scripture.
What are arche? archons?
They are the ‘other gods’ of the WORLD – they are from the Great Red Dragon who appeared in heaven ready to consume

You deny the spiritual struggle of the ahl –
I ask you who are Baal and the 33 other gods?
Who is Allah – or Zeus – or Dogon - you deny the reality of the 99%
Rome has you convinced that all of the 99% is not relevant – or is untrue
You are trained to deny – the ‘other gods’ - - just pretend they don’t exist

R" Dave, I do not deny our real struggle. I do not deny the agents of RA either, you change them to be creatures not even written in Scripture.
You deny the ahl when it speaks of ‘other gods’?

I do not deny devils, or Satan who is a leader of millions of devils. You are the one who denies the agents of RA, making up stories these beings had offspring from mankind? And your evidence is based on a phrase "sons of eloiym" used out of context, where other Bible verses suggest different meaning?
You deny the ‘other god’ of the ahl – you just focus upon your god of evil named satan

You have a 6 second war in heaven, but acknowledge this contest of archon war on earth?
You – have a weak God that cannot stand up to angels
My God is omnipotent

-------------------------------
R" Prove to me the great red dragon is some archon creature God made to sin intentionally? And DO NOT use your Gnostic writings? You can't? Because such a concept does not exist.

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.

Just appeared – in a plurality – and became physical creation – or entered physical creation

But you make it than into an archon, a different creature not mentioned in Scripture.
The Great Red Dragon is not an angel – it is the BEAST of Revelation

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the fourth time I have asked you)
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?
AND for the 5th time I will say
The Beast – is the Great Red Dragon – his general is the devil – his army is the serpent – and satanas G4567 of Chaldean origin – an ‘other god’ of the 99%
Which has nothing to do with Hebrew satan H7854 or its Greek transliteration G4566

The Great Red Dragon was never FRIENDLY with God
OH so the dragon is opposing GOD?
How can this be Dave, if GOD created the archon to be doing ra for testing purposes, so it's not a sin to obey GOD is it? according to you, yet now you say the archon is not friendly with God? Duh , God made the archon this way, so do not write your words this way, you are confused

Is a cow friendly with God? How about termites? How about bacteria?
You insist creatures with programmed instinctive (yester ra) are all evil sinners
So all animals every where – thet only think of themselves – are ant-god according to you
Of everything God created in Gen 1 – opposes God because they live ny programmed instinctive self-preservation

The Great Red Dragon was created naturally doing RA.
Only if cows and termites and bacteria were created to do ra

The Great Red Dragon was created naturally doing sin, but this is not accounted as sin because the archon has no free will, programmed to be unfriendly to both God and Man.
Cows kill – termites destroy – bacteria kill
Yet you think God created them to be unfriendly to God and man

So this Dragon was placed in the Garden to test sinless humans who only have free will?
Is this fair? If this dragon is programmed for sin and ra, and God created it this way,
The Dragon is just self – please answer why cows and birds are programmed for sin and ra

D" who was totally 100% (yester ra) –ME – I am First = SELF
R" Oh so SELF can be created by GOD? BUT this does not require free will?
SO what exactly is free will choosing sin all about,
Free Will is the freedom to choose God and return from this WORLD as a Prodigal Son
Free Will is the ability to wake up and listen to your (yester tov) – deep inside you know better

D" And now Rome is all confused – cannot tell the difference between ahl satan and agl devil so they just lump it all together – call it fallen angels and makes them responsible for everything
R" so is this your answer? we are confused?
YES – Roman Catholicism is not the same religion as Messianic Judaism
Roman Catholicism replaced Messianic Judaism with Roman-centric doctrine

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the fifth time I have asked you)
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?
Do you have trouble with this verse, and ignore the simple reading of it?

And for the 6th time
The Beast – is the Great Red Dragon – his general is the devil – his army is the serpent – and satanas G4567 of Chaldean origin – an ‘other god’ of the 99%
Which has nothing to do with Hebrew satan H7854 or its Greek transliteration

D" No Jew ever saw satan as a god of anything especially evil – Jesus did not come to change that
Jesus came to add to the story – Rev 12 – the Beast and his army
R " you have cheek?
Jesus accused the Jews having the Devil ruling over them as a Father of SIn (John 8)
And who is this devil?

Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”
The Devil is a general for the Great Red Dragon – along with the serpent and satanas G4567
All archon of this WORLD

One thing you did not do , discuss my verse.... (the Sixth time I have asked you)
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Isn't this verse calling this creature by different names? Dragon=serpent=devil=satan ?
Do you have trouble with this verse, and ignore the simple reading of it?

And for the 7th time
Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”
The Beast – is the Great Red Dragon – his general is the devil – his army is the serpent – and satanas G4567 of Chaldean origin – an ‘other god’ of the 99%
Which has nothing to do with Hebrew satan H7854 or its Greek transliteration

4566. satan Satan, of Hebrew origin (7854); Satan, i.e. the devil:--Satan.
Compare 4567. Greek 4567 (Satanas)
R" You are the expert in Greek, why the different Strong's for Satan and Satanas?
Because they are not the same word – same origine – or discussing the same being

Hebrew satan = is an angel of the Lord – helping tpo facilitate God Will in the ahl
Chaldean satanas – is a Chaldean devil


R"the Greek had no word for satan, so just wrote the Hebrew into their Greek
D" –wrong, The chaldeans believed in satans/devils long before the agl was written
R" Are you reading my words correctly?, so brief , so confused. I am talking about Greek, you speak of the Babylonians, we are not talking about the same people even?
Please explain? You hardly ever explain....

You pretend you do not understand because you deny the 99%
You must dent that the 33 ‘other gods’ of the ahl are imaginary – they never existed
You assume that the Chaldeans did not have real spirit gods or spiritual devils
King Solomon called them Beelzebub and his shedim – you deny this also
When Jesus spoke of Beelzebub – everyone understood who he was talking about except you
------------------------------


R" Oh I see. So this Satanas is a different being? OK 33 Greek verses use satanas, let's see who this being is
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan:

So this satanas is the same being as the diabolos. You agree I take it?
YES!

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
SO this satanas/diabolos was a father of lies from the beginning/..... beginning of what Dave?
Gen 1:2 or Rev 12:3

Heb 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Here is satanas/diabolos , who is a being with the power of death.
Do the so called false gods of Babylonians have powers of death? Hardly
So – you teach if you believe these false gods are your personal god and savior – you live/you have eternal life/ you will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire
You teach – belief in false gods will save you from the Lake of Fire -

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
SO Jesus only came to destroy the works of the pagan gods of Babylonian times. Is that your beginning?
YES – without being formally introduced to YHWY – but yet understanding the reality of an intelligent design the 99% fell for any spiritual being that could do parlor tricks

King Solomon – told us the shedim control things like, weather, rain, fertility, disease
All they have to do – is make it rain – or cure a disease and ancient man thought them gods

Space Gods came to earth in technologically advanced vehicles – chariots

Jesus came to put an end to worship of the WORLD – worship of false gods – all the false gods - which are all the gods of the 99%

What's the Greek different in meaning to satanas and satan in Greek ? Nothing as I see. You are straw picking.
H7854 = G4566 – total agreement – G4566 is a transliteration of H7854
H7854 does not = G4567 which is of a different origin – which is of Chaldean origin – a Chaldean devil


D" King Solomon – describes the shedim as offspring of Belzeebub
R" Where? Not found in the OT.... are you going to use Gnostic source to prove this?
No it is not Greek – it is from the Jewish Temple Scrolls

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
Diabolos/satanas is from the beginning, what beginning?

The Hypostasis of the Archons
And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.

Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.

what beginning? – Gen 1:2 or Rev 12:3 – the very beginning

[Dillon]

D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
R- Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field

I don’t think Robert understood your question. You asked about satan and he begins his proof with the serpent. How did the Jews know the serpent was the beast of revelation without the NT?

In Search of the Serpent
Bereishit (Genesis 1:1-6:8)
by Rabbi Ari Kahn
There was someone who spied upon them from a distance, and he was jealous; he had designs on Eve.10 The Serpent was a walking, talking, upright creature, capable of sophisticated communication, of manipulative speech, of advanced planning and tactical maneuvering, of posing and arguing. Although we tend to imagine the "Serpent" as a "serpent", we should keep in mind that the creature who seduced Eve assumed its lowly, legless, slithering form only as a result of its sin.11 At the point at which the Serpent presents himself and his seductive arguments to Eve, this "proto-serpent" had far more in common with Adam and Eve than we might care to imagine.12 Perhaps this walking, talking Serpent is best described as a soul-less humanoid. Because he, too, was created in the image of the Almighty, the Serpent possessed great capabilities of speech and reasoning, but he uses these gifts as weapons of destruction in order to satisfy his own desire.

Eve is the object of his desire, and he intends to be rid of Adam in order to have her for his own.13 The Serpent uses cunning speech - truthful, yet deceptive, to deliver a message which seems to pass through Eve to Adam. The Serpent attacks the very idea of the limitations set forth by God:

The serpent was more devious than all the animals of the field which were made by God Almighty, and he said to the woman, "For the Almighty has said not to eat of every tree of the garden." (Bereishit 3:1)

In the Serpent's mind, limits are deleterious; they run counter to his instinctual sensibilities. In truth, God had allowed man to enjoy every tree with the exception of the one tree that would bring death into the world. It is this limit that the Serpent abhors: if man cannot have everything, he essentially has nothing. The very fact that there is a limitation - even one that protects man from death - drives the Serpent's desire. There is one other limitation that haunts him, another object of his desire - the only woman who is off limits to him, the one and only woman in all of creation who was married, in a ceremony performed by God and attended by the angels.14 This one woman that he cannot have is the one he lusts for.

When the Serpent has Eve's ear, he presses on with a curiously male-oriented seduction; he speaks of power:

For the Almighty knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like a deity knowing good and evil. (Bereishit 3:5)

The promise was power, but this is not what speaks to Eve. Her reaction resonates with desire of a totally different sort:

The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and lustful to the eye, and pleasant to learn, she took of its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband and he ate. (Bereishit 3:6)

When the Serpent speaks of power,15 Eve seems strangely indifferent; indeed, someone interested in power would not immediately share it.16 Eve is enticed by the aesthetics, by the beauty. Her reaction is not greed for power but lust for beauty and experience. As is their wont, our sages look into the words that are said, but also learn from the silences in the text: In the Midrash, the Rabbis allude to the source of Eve's lust by noting that one important character was absent during most of this episode. Where was Adam? The Rabbis have an interesting answer: The Midrash says he was sleeping:

And the woman said to the Serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat" (Bereishit 3:2). Now where was Adam during this conversation? Abba Halfon b. Koriah said: He had engaged in his natural functions [sc. intercourse] and then fallen asleep. (Midrash Rabbah Bereshit 19:3)

After they consummate their union, Adam falls into a satisfied slumber, leaving the Serpent to work his wiles on Eve, who has been left alone, aroused and unsatisfied. The Serpent speaks of power, but Eve responds with lust. According to Rabbinic literature, the Serpent took full advantage of her vulnerability, and successfully seduced Eve.17 The object of his desire was won.

a thing of the world, maybe even humanoid
Lust, desire, power, all things of this world
Not one mention of Robert's NT satan

[Dave]

OMG – I love this forum
Thank you for this source Rabbi Ari Kahn

Robert – is easily confused by labels. I call myself a Gnostic Christian, therefore, he has to see me as a heritic and nothing I say is real, because I refuse to believe his fallen angel satan is a god and is anti-Creator

When the reality is that through my Gnostic studies I have come to see the ahl as a Jewish thinker

mizrachi.org/speaker/rabbi-ari-kahn/
Rabbi Kahn is Director of Foreign Student Programs at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, where he is a Senior Lecturer in Jewish Studies. He also serves as Rabbi of the Mishkan Etrog community in Givat Ze’ev. He has authored ten books on Jewish thought, including the highly acclaimed “Echoes of Eden” series, and has published hundreds of articles on Torah and Jewish thought. He is a member of the Vaad Rabbanie Zaka. (Rabbinic council of Zaka)

Does not get more Jewish than this

Bereishit (Genesis 1:1-6:8)
by Rabbi Ari Kahn

CREATION AND FORMATION

When man is created the Torah describes the new creature as follows:

The Almighty created Adam in His image, in the image of the Almighty he was created, male and female they were created (Genesis 1:27).

Man is created in the image of the Almighty, and man is male and female. Neither of these statements is easily understood: What does it means to be "in the image of the Almighty"? Furthermore, if Eve is introduced later in the narrative, what does the reference at this juncture to "male and female" imply? What is it about this creation that is "male and female"?

In the following chapter, Adam is re-introduced, with some striking differences. The second chapter describes "formation" of man, as opposed to "creation" described in the first chapter. The two terms are far from synonymous: Creation implies something totally new, ex-nihilo, from nothingness. The second chapter describes the formation of man from pre-existing matter:

God Almighty formed the man (Adam) from the dust of the earth and blew in his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

Instead of "creation from nothing", man is formed out of the earth. This form is then given a divine spirit. Man is a hybrid, composed of earthly and divine stuff.5

YES! Man = (spirit/yester tov) + (animal/Mind/Body/yester ra)

HAVE I GOT A GIRL FOR YOU

This two-stage creation described in the second chapter is perplexing: Whereas the first chapter told of a male and female, in the second chapter the female is nowhere to be found. Whereas the first chapter describes ex nihilo creation, the second chapter tells a seemingly different story, a story of formation, of shaping physical material and imbuing it with a divine breath.

It is possible to reconcile these differences with a very literal reading of the text: God did indeed create man (and woman) as He created everything else - ex nihilo. Yet unlike all the other creations, God perfected this particular one at a subsequent stage, with the additional act that separated man from the rest of creation: God took this (previously created) man and breathed into him a divine breath - gave him a soul. This man, this more perfect, more elevated version of the earlier creation, is estranged from all of creation.

YES! Man = (spirit/yester tov) + (animal/Mind/Body/yester ra)
More perfect than the other animals because – now man has the ability to choose between (yester tov) and (yester ra)

The act of naming the animals is, in a sense, Adam's declaration of independence from the animal world. The divine breath within him creates a spiritual void. Adam is no longer satisfied with an instinctual,6 pedestrian existence. He seeks existence of a higher order; he seeks meaning. By imbuing this being with a soul, God lifted him above all the other creatures He had created - including the earlier version of man, the unelevated, soul-less men and women who peopled the created universe. This is the Adam who is unable to find an appropriate mate within the existing framework. Adam experiences a spiritual crisis when he studies and classifies the animal world, and comes to the realization that the other humanoids are no less primitive: Although they, too, are created in the image of the Almighty, and are endowed with great capabilities, they lack the "breath of God" that he has been given. They lack souls. He understands that it will be impossible for him to find a mate for himself among them. There are no others who possess a soul, and Adam is existentially, though not physically alone.

God intervenes: Adam is presented with Eve. Though forged from his own body, the more salient aspect of their relationship is that she is - literally -Adam's soul mate. The physical unity, both in terms of their origin and the subsequent consummation of their reunion, is seen as a physical expression of their spiritual identity; they are one, and they are unique in that they possess a soul. It is one soul, divided between the male and female bodies God forms for them. The mate which God forms for Adam is, like him, shaped from pre-existing material, but endowed with so much more.

While the suggestion that there were other humanoids with whom Adam felt no spiritual or existential kinship may seem antinomian, at odds with mainstream rabbinic doctrine, we are taught that the Torah's truth exists on many levels, and the text of the Torah may be legitimately understood in many ways.7 In fact there are rabbinic teachings which may only be understood in light of this suggestion.8 As we shall see (below), many rabbinic authorities, including the Rambam, were of the opinion that there were "animals in human shape and form", devoid of the soul that set Adam apart, lacking that divine breath which Adam and Eve shared between them.

Incremental Creation – at the time of Adam and Eve their could have been as many as 8 different humanoids species upon the planet. Adam and Eve are the first Homo sapiens because we were the only lineage to survive the flood of Noah


When Adam and Eve are introduced, it is love at first sight:

Adam said, "This time the bones are of my bones and the flesh of my flesh; this one will be called 'woman' for she was taken from man. Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and they shall be of one flesh." 9 (Bereishit 2:23)

A SOUL MAN

Despite their physical and spiritual unity, Adam and Eve each possess a unique personality. Each represents a unique aspect of the soul with which they are imbued. Aside from their gender, there is a major difference between them: Adam has had experiences which Eve has not shared. Adam has already explored the animal kingdom thoroughly, and has gained insight into the differences between the species and a firm grasp of his own place within the larger framework of Creation. Adam has acquainted himself thoroughly with the world, has attempted to live as one with the other creatures, and has found that life shallow and unfulfilling. Eve is less experienced, more innocent. She does not share Adam's knowledge of the boundaries between the various orders of creation. Therefore, she is more easily led astray by the first slick paramour that entices her.

I do not have a problem with this

Adam immediately grasps the nature of their relationship, because he has seen more and experienced more. But what was Eve's reaction to meeting Adam? The text is silent. Eve does not speak, but her actions tell us more than words:

Actions speak louder than words

Jul 12, 2021 9:55:56 GMT -5 Dillon said:

The Serpent attacks the very idea of the limitations set forth by God:
In the Serpent's mind, limits are deleterious; they run counter to his instinctual sensibilities

Boundaries – there can be a piece of pie in the fridge and I don’t care – but when someone says, don’t eat it they are saving it for later – suddenly it becomes more interesting / more enticing

The promise was power, but this is not what speaks to Eve. Her reaction resonates with desire of a totally different sort:

The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and lustful to the eye, and pleasant to learn, she took of its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband and he ate. (Bereishit 3:6)

When the Serpent speaks of power,15 Eve seems strangely indifferent; indeed, someone interested in power would not immediately share it.16 Eve is enticed by the aesthetics, by the beauty. Her reaction is not greed for power but lust for beauty and experience.

The Serpent speaks of power, but Eve responds with lust.

Power – Lust – desire – I want it greed = selfish – SELF – yester ra speaking = animal world – just things of this physical world

[Deleted]

Greetings Dillon and Dave

Dillon Posts: "D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
R- Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field

I don’t think Robert understood your question. You asked about satan and he begins his proof with the serpent. How did the Jews know the serpent was the beast of revelation without the NT?

Dillon and Dave, the word "satan" means to "oppose/opposer", so which power/creature "opposes or is an opposer" to GOD?

The simple meaning of adversary, is a creature who opposes you. Same idea. Your opponent.

In Creation, GOD placed two trees, and here already in Nature is a tree, as a symbol of power that opposes GOD. Yet Dave thinks the tree had its power already on earth. Yes it did for some fallen angels, and earth in a limited fashion, but not for the overall Creation God planned for mankind.

The question is not "Is the serpent a satan or the satan", but does the serpent oppose GOD?

The Hebrew word "satan" simply means an opponent who opposes you. And this is not a secular opposing, if you look up all the verses, the opposing is about sin, ra and transgression of law.

So does the serpent oppose GOD? Yes he does.

Have a look and read of your Rabbi you posted:

"10 The Serpent was a walking, talking, upright creature, capable of sophisticated communication, of manipulative speech, of advanced planning and tactical maneuvering, of posing and arguing. Although we tend to imagine the "Serpent" as a "serpent", we should keep in mind that the creature who seduced Eve assumed its lowly, legless, slithering form only as a result of its sin."

Notice as a result of it's sin. Bingo. The serpent sinned. And sin is a process of opposing GOD.

Now the word "satan" has two forms the incomplete action (verb) and the complete action (noun).

Does this serpent, when beginning its sinning, become complete in it's sinning? In Hebrew this is written as "hey" meaning "Behold the Being" with a suffix with "satan". Yes this noun form is written later throughout the OT and NT.

Now the Greek NT is a translation of the OT Hebrew, hence the word "Satan" comes in both verb and noun forms. I suspect the Greek has missed including these two forms in the Greek.

Bible Hub lists this for G4566

Cognate: 4566 Satán – Satan, the same fallen angel as 4567 /Satanás ("the adversary, opposer," see there).

4566 /Satán ("Satan") only occurs in 2 Cor 12:7, in relation to the "thorn in the flesh."

[The absence of the definite article is probably not significant, given the genitive construction.]

Nobody except Dave sees the G4566 and G4567 as two different creatures of opposing.


Dave posts" before Adam there was a lot of ra on the planet. Earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, and GENERATIONS of – birth – life – death – and rebirth life cycle

Rom 5:13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rob" You need to read your Greek correctly, but than you are not used to bringing the Greek back to Hebrew tongue are you? SO invent different views?

Ro 5:13 (For until the law "hamartia" was in the world: but "hamartia" is not imputed when there is no law.

Or in Hebrew this would be

Ro 5:13 (For until the law "chataah" was in the world: but "chataah" is not imputed when there is no law.

And in English this would be

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin-offering was in the world: but sin-offering is not imputed when there is no law.

Until Jesus came to offer Himself for sins (chata) there was no sin-offering possible (chataah), hence no law for sinning was possible.

This verse cannot be used to say RA was already in the world naturally, as you claim.

Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

There are two Hebrew words used here m@`od towb, that negate the idea of RA in Adam's Creation.

I agree that some limited aspects of RA may have been present, chosek , beings banished to earth, etc. But this aspect was restricted by GOD. God creates the RA, so sin can be seen. RA is the fruit of sin. This is why the serpent was allowed to tempt Adam and Eve to sin. He was the agent who wanted this RA, because the creature had sinned a long time before.

Dave posts" You – have a weak God that cannot stand up to angels

Rob" So now you write angels have free will? Well if the angels first sinned, does that mean GOD can immediately allow them to stop existing, as the penalty of missing is non-existence?

What would the other sinless angels think?

So love is also kind and gracious, as well as exacting and a fire that consumes missing.

You have a weak GOD, that He creates natural RA and allows this... Why can't GOD have all things perfect in Nature, is this so hard for you to fathom?

I will answer your earlier post in time, the one Dillon made was interesting.

------------------------

The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and lustful to the eye, and pleasant to learn, she took of its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband and he ate. (Bereishit 3:6)
The Serpent speaks of power, but Eve responds with lust.

R" Since when does this Hebrew word mean "lust", it means to "desire". Look up all the contexts and see. Stop twisting the word meanings.


f1) )JEX ()JEX TA-WH) —
Desire: What is good or bad,
that is desired. [freq. 20] |kjv:
desire, lust, greedily| {str: 8378}

From Jeff benner. Desire.

Shalom

[Dave]

Dillon Posts: "D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
R- Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field

I don’t think Robert understood your question. You asked about satan and he begins his proof with the serpent. How did the Jews know the serpent was the beast of revelation without the NT?

Robert is not capable of critical thinking - with each question asked - he simply repeats his satan doctrine - it is the only thing he understands

Dillon and Dave, the word "satan" means to "oppose/opposer", so which power/creature "opposes or is an opposer" to GOD?

The simple meaning of adversary, is a creature who opposes you. Same idea. Your opponent.

First he argues cherub chata is an angel that turned against God in a rebellion
Then he says stuff like this so he does not have to answer the question
opposer always means opposition to God is his montra - whether he can prove it or not
But when God opposes it doesn’t mean in opposition to God

But in any discussion of the ‘other gods’ of the Levant - he refuses to see or even listen
all of the 99% has to be fake in order for his doctrine to be true

When scripture talks of other gods - Judg 2:4
Robert insist that God is talking about imaginary beings that do not exist
Yet - he also says God is incapable of lying

Just more SDA logic

Nobody except Dave sees the G4566 and G4567 as two different creatures of opposing.
Correction - I have been begging you for a pre-Catholic reference - you have failed
No one of Catholic Christendom can tell the difference
Ask a Jew who Baal or Dogon were

Dave posts" You – have a weak God that cannot stand up to angels
Rob" So now you write angels have free will? Well if the angels first sinned, does that mean GOD can immediately allow them to stop existing, as the penalty of missing is non-existence?
What a bunch of Bull Shit Robert
Who say angels have Free Will - you do
Who says the war in heaven was difficult for God to win - it must have been a long war with much carnage on both sides - you do
I say God is omnipotent and it was no contest - the Great Red Dragon was created with some matter and belong in matter not in heaven - end of story

Dillon Posts: "D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God

[Deleted]

Your writing is interesting Dave

You ask me, who says angels have free will? Rob does.

That is easy to answer Dave, and my answer is straight from the Hebrew OT.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Now who was in Eden with GOD? Let's see, tough question, there was Adam, Eve, GOD, the serpent , and maybe some angels too.

The label Eden is very specific.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub...

One of these creatures is a cherub.... who can that be? Not Adam, Not Eve, Not God, must be the serpent, ...it's really a tough question....so all groups present are 2 humans, 1 GOD and some angels, including the serpent who is an angel.


Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

This cherub was perfect, hence sinless. Like other angels, morally and physically perfect.

Eze 28:16 ...thou hast sinned: ... and I (GOD) will destroy thee, O covering cherub,

Funny how difficult Scripture can be, so profound. How can a robotic programmed cherub sin, by sin, we assume it chose to sin, like humans do.... must be using it's free will...

Not a reference to any human, only the creatures in Eden...

How come Jews can't read their own Hebrew writings Dave?

Dillon Posts: "D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God

I just did prove it to you. "satan" is a Hebrew word that means "adversary", an "opponent" even you said it, somebody not friendly towards you, an opposer who opposes you.

Notice the text.... GOD will destroy you, O cherub, who sinned.

So if God will destroy the cherub, than the cherub wants to destroy God....

Is there are text for this idea? Yes found in the Hebrew OT too.

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Who is making this boast? The bright star is.

Not sure who the bright star is... try this poetry....

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

These Hebrew words include saraph, burning, serpent, which go back to the first being who sinned.




D"Correction - I have been begging you for a pre-Catholic reference - you have failed

R" Please explain, what reference, what exactly do you want? Evidence does not sway people stuck in deception, you need the Holy Spirit. Only God can help you see. Now help me out,

Is this simple presentation I posted here wrong, or what?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Now who was in Eden with GOD? Let's see, there was Adam, Eve, GOD and the serpent.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub...

By elimination only the serpent is the cherub. Not God, not Adam, not Eve. Maybe other cherubs who were sinless, but the purpose of Ezekiel is to show the origin of SIN.


Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

This cherub was perfect, hence sinless. Originally all the cherubs were sinless.

Eze 28:16 ...thou hast sinned: ... and I (GOD) will destroy thee, O covering cherub,

Only Free Will chooses to SIN. Hence one cherub decides by free will to sin against GOD.

Not a reference to any human, only the creatures in Eden, a story about sinning.

Now how come Jews can't read their own Hebrew writings Dave?

Shalom

[Dillon]

Hebrew Demonology

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13523-shedim
DEMONOLOGY

Systematic knowledge concerning demons or evil spirits. Demons (Greek, δαίμονες or δαιμόνια; Hebrew, [Deut. xxxii. 17; Ps. cvi. 37] and [Lev. xvii. 7; II Chron. xi. 15; A. V. "devils"; Luther, "Feldgeister" and "Feldteufel"]; Aramaic, or rabbinical, and as spirits animating all elements of life and inhabiting all parts of the world, have their place in the primitive belief of all tribes and races. When certain deities rose to be the objects of regular worship and became the rulers of the powers of life, demons, or spirits, were subordinated to them. But inasmuch as they were still feared and occasionally worshiped by the populace, they became the objects of popular superstition. Jewish demonology can at no time be viewed as the outcome of an antecedent Hebrew belief. While the nomadic Hebrews had much in common with the Arabian Bedouins in their belief in spirits (see Wellhausen, "Reste Arabischen Heidenthums: Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 1887, iii. 135 et seq.; Smith, "Rel. of Sem." 1889, pp. 112-125, 422 et seq.), Canaanite practise and belief were greatly influenced by ancient Chaldea, whose demonologyis in the main pre-Semitic (see Lenormant, "Chaldean Magic," 1877, pp. 23-38; German transl., 1878, pp. 22-41; Jastrow, "Religion of Babylonia and Assyria," pp. 260 et seq.; Zimmern, in Schrader's "K. A. T." 1902, ii. 458-464). In Babylonia the Jews came under the influence of both the Chaldean and the Persian belief in good and in evil spirits, and this dualistic system became a dominant factor of Jewish demonology and Angelology. In Europe, Teutonic, Celtic, and Slavonic demonology in the form of superstition permeated Jewish practise and belief. See Superstition.

Demons in the Bible.
The demons mentioned in the Bible are of two classes, the "se'irim" and the "shedim." The se'irim ("hairy beings"), to which the Israelites sacrificed in the open fields (Lev. xvii. 7; A. V. "devils"; R. V., incorrectly, "he-goats"), are satyr-like demons, described as dancing in the wilderness (Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14; compare Maimonides, "Moreh," iii. 46; Vergil's "Eclogues," v. 73, "saltantes satyri"), and are identical with the jinn of the Arabian woods and deserts (see Wellhausen, l.c., and Smith, l.c.). To the same class belongs Azazel, the goat-like demon of the wilderness (Lev. xvi. 10 et seq.), probably the chief of the se'irim, and Lilith (Isa. xxxiv. 14). Possibly "the roes and hinds of the field," by which Shulamit conjures the daughters of Jerusalem to bring her back to her lover (Cant. ii. 7, iii. 5), are faunlike spirits similar to the se'irim, though of a harmless nature. The (Job v. 23. A. V. "stones of the field"), with which the righteous are said to be in league—obviously identical with, if not a corruption of, the (Mishnah Kil. viii. 5), explained in Yer. Kil. 31c as "a fabulous mountain-man drawing nourishment from the ground" (see Jastrow, "Dict.," and Levy, "Neuhebr. Wörterb." s.v. )—seem to be field-demons of the same nature. The wilderness as the home of demons was regarded as the place whence such diseases as leprosy issued, and in cases of leprosy one of the birds set apart to be offered as an expiatory sacrifice was released that it might carry the disease back to the desert (Lev. xiv. 7, 52; compare a similar rite in Sayce, "Hibbert Lectures," 1887, p. 461, and "Zeit. für Assyr." 1902, p. 149).

The Israelites also offered sacrifices to the shedim (Deut. xxxii. 17; Ps. cvi. 37). The name (believed by Hoffmann, "Hiob," 1891, to occur in Job v. 21), for a long time erroneously connected with "the Almighty" (), denotes a storm-demon (from , Isa. xiii. 6; A. V. "destruction"; compare Psxci. 6, , "that stormeth about"; A. V. "that wasteth"). In Chaldean mythology the seven evil deities were known as "shedim," storm-demons, represented in ox-like form; and because these oxcolossi representing evil demons were, by a peculiar law of contrast, used also as protective genii of royal palaces and the like, the name "shed" assumed also the meaning of a propitious genius in Babylonian magic literature (see Delitzsch, "Assyrisches Handwörterb." pp. 60, 253, 261, 646; Jensen, "Assyr.-Babyl. Mythen und Epen," 1900, p. 453; Sayce, l.c. pp. 441, 450, 463; Lenormant, l.c. pp. 48-51). It was from Chaldea that the name "shedim" = evil demons came to the Israelites, and so the sacred writers in tentionally applied the word in a dyslogistic sense to the Canaanite deities 'in the two passages quoted. But they also spoke of "the destroyer" () Ex. xii. 23) as a demon whose malignant effect upon the houses of the Israelites was to be warded off by the blood of the paschal sacrifice sprinkled upon the lintel and the door-post (a corresponding pagan talisman is mentioned in Isa. lvii. 8). In II Sam. xxiv; 16 and II Chron. xxi. 15 the pestilence-dealing demon is called = "the destroying angel" (compare "the angel of the Lord" in II Kings xix. 35; Isa. xxxvii. 36), because, although they are demons, these "evil messengers" (Ps. lxxviii. 49; A. V. "evil angels") do only the bidding of God, their Master; they are the agents of His divine wrath.

Jewish demons are shedim, seirim, Lillith, Azazal = Chaldean devils
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels
Canaanite practice and belief were greatly influenced by ancient Chaldea demonology / pre-Semitic "Chaldean Magic,"

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10937-moloch-molech
MOLOCH (MOLECH)
In I Kings xi. 7 it is said that Solomon built a high place for Molech in the mountain "that is before Jerusalem." The same passage calls Molech an Ammonite deity.

Ammonite deity – Rephiem deity
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels
Solomon built a Temple to Moloch and Chermosh
King Solomon wrote of beelzeebub and the shedim

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2255-baal-zebub
BAAL-ZEBUB.
As the word stands, it means "Baal of flies." This is usually explained as the god who expels or destroys flies; though it may also mean the patron or controller of flies. The two explanations may be combined in one, or rather the second may include the first; for the god who has power to drive away any plague has also power to send it. A Zεῦς Απόμνως was worshiped at Elis in Greece as a disperser of flies, and further analogies drawn from the occurrence of "fly gods" among other nations (see Frazer's note to his ed. of Pausanias, v. 14) warrant us in retaining the common explanation until decisive proof to the contrary is forthcoming. It has been suggested that the second element of the name has been modified from an original "Zebul," or rather "beth Zebul," so that the name would mean "lord of the high-house" (compare I Kings viii. 13). The dropping of "Beth" is not without example (see Baalpeor); but the warrant for assuming textual corruption is not sufficient. It was not unusual to call a god by the name of things that were particularly troublesome, and which he was asked to destroy (Nowack, "Hebr. Arch." p. 304; compare Apollo Smintheus as the destroyer of mice among the Greeks).

Lord of Flies
Compare Greek Zeus / Apollo
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2732-beelzebub
Beelzebub
The name "Beelzebub," written also "Beelzebul," is a variant form of "Baal Zebub," the god of Eḳron, whose oracle King Ahaziah consulted during his illness, provoking thereby the wrath of God (II Kings i. 2-16); the name is commonly explained after the Septuagint and Josephus, "Ant." ix. 2, § 1, as the "Lord of Flies" (see Baal-zebub). Plagues being often ascribed to the influence of flies (Ex. xxiii. 28; Eccl. x. 1; Pliny, "Historia Naturalis," x. 28, 75; Pausanias," Description of Greece," v. 14, 1; Aelian, "Natura Animalium," v. 17, xi. 8; Usener, "Götternamen," p. 260), the god who dispelled flies (Apollo Apomyios) probably retained his popularity long after he had ceased to be an object of worship. In fact, the fly was regarded by the Jews in particular as more or less impure and demonic. "The evil spirit ["yeẓer ha-ra'"] lies like a fly at the doors of the human heart," says Rab, with reference to "the flies of death" in Eccl. x. 1 (Ber. 61a and Targ. Yer. to the passage). "A fly, being an impure thing, was never seen in the slaughterhouse of the Temple" (Abot v. 8), nor did one cross the table of Elisha; which fact, according to Rab, gave proof to the Shunammite woman that he was "a holy man" (II Kings iv. 9; Ber. 10b). The devil in German folk-lore also appears in the shape of a fly (Simrock, "Deutsche Mythologie," 1874, pp. 95, 479).

Geiger ("Urschrift," p. 53) thinks that Baal Zebub, in his capacity as god of the hated Philistines, became the representative of the heathen power and consequently the arch-enemy, the foe par excellence, and therefore the name "Baal debaba" ("debaba" being the Aramaic form corresponding to Hebrew "Zebub") acquired the meaning of "hostility," the verb with the sense of "hostile action" being derived from it. But neither this opinion nor a similar one expressed by Döderlein and Storr, and revived in Riehm's "Realwörterbuch," seems acceptable, as "Beel debaba" is the ordinary Aramean word for "calumniator." (Brockelmann, "Lex Syriæ.")

What renders the name still more problematic is the form "Beelzebul," which the older manuscripts present, and which has given rise to a number of other conjectures, among them the following: (1)It has been suggested that the appellations Beelzebub and Baal Zebub are corrupt forms of what was originally "Baal Zebul" (Baal of the heavenly mansion, , Movers, in "Journal Asiatique," 1878, pp. 220-225), and afterward "Baal of the nether world." (2) The word "Zebul" (from "zebel," dung) is a cacophonic corruption of "Zebub," in order to give the name the meaning of "god of the dung." It is more likely that the name "Beelzebul" is a dialectic variation of "Beelzebub," as "Beliar" is of "Belial"; Jerome read and translated the name as "dominus muscarum" (lord of flies).

"The evil spirit ["yeẓer ha-ra'"] lies like a fly at the doors of the human heart,"
(lord of flies).
It has been suggested that the appellations Beelzebub and Baal Zebub are corrupt forms of what was originally "Baal Zebul"
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels

Jews never heard of Catholic Fallen Angels
And Hebrew satan was/is the heavenly prosecutor working for the Lord

[Dave]

You ask me, who says angels have free will? Rob does.
That is easy to answer Dave, and my answer is straight from the Hebrew OT.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
Now who was in Eden with GOD?
MAN

The label Eden is very specific.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub...
One of these creatures is a cherub.... who can that be?
Man

Mat 18:10 See that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Luk 20:34 And Jesus said unto them, The sons of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 but they that are accounted worthy to attain to that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 for neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Man

Dillon Posts: "D- Without using the agl – prove to me that satan opposes God
I just did prove it to you. "satan" is a Hebrew word that means "adversary", an "opponent" even you said it, somebody not friendly towards you, an opposer who opposes you.

You are so slippery – why are you unable to be specific with your doctrine
On the one hand satan must be a singular angel that sinned
On the other hand satan can be anything you choose

You have not answer any question
Prove that cherub chata satan god of yours opposes God in the ahl
And the best answer you have = somebody not friendly towards you, an opposer who opposes you.

D"Correction - I have been begging you for a pre-Catholic reference - you have failed
R" Please explain, what reference, what exactly do you want?
Please prove to me that the Catholic theology of your satan god and Fallen Angels existed before Rome
D just answered your question for you – because you cannot – or you simply refuse

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13523-shedim
DEMONOLOGY
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels

Instead it speaks of Chaldean devils – which are Greek satanas

When Jesus spoke of Beelzebub everyone understood who he was talking about
The King of the shedim and of Chaldean origin
Why don’t Christians? – Because Rome just wants you to think of satan as the god of evil

By elimination only the serpent is the cherub. Not God, not Adam, not Eve. Maybe other cherubs who were sinless, but the purpose of Ezekiel is to show the origin of SIN.
No – not by elimination – not by assumption - not by inference
Two words do not overwrite the totality of scripture
Precept upon precept, line upon line

Roman Christianity is not based in Judaism’s – it is 100% totally a Catholic invention
Sun day + Dec 25th + Easter + satan is a god and the creatures/archon/principalities/demons/devils of our real struggle do not exist

Now how come Jews can't read their own Hebrew writings Dave?
It is not the fault of the Jews – or the messianic Jews
Because when Rome sent Israel the memo to change their beliefs and rewrite the ahl – Rome had already persecuted the First Messianic Christian out of existence and taught everyone that those damn evil Jews killed Christ

outorah.org/p/3720/
Ezekiel - Chapter 28 (Jewish Commentary)
Rabbi Dr. Gidon Rothstein
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels

jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/
Jewish Bible Quarterly – Harvard Divinity School
Ezekiel accomplishes this blending of the fate of Tyre’s king and Tyre itself by evoking imagery from Genesis 2-3. The king is depicted as the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and flawless in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God (Ezek. 28:12-13). In an interesting and unexpected play on the Genesis story, the king is also identified as an angelic cherub. I created you as a cherub with outstretched shielding wings; And you resided on God’s holy mountain (Ezek. 28:14). In Genesis after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, God stationed cherubim as guards to protect the Tree of Life from violation by returning humans. In Ezekiel, however, it is the cherubic king that has transgressed and is punished by expulsion from God’s mountain. I have cast you to the ground, I have made you an object for kings to stare at (Ezek. 28:17).

It is Hebrew poetry
Robert even admits that a lot of the ahl is poetry
But when he does his word for word only zero polysemy word game – he cannot tell prose from poetry

(google) What is the meaning of Ezekiel chapter 28?
Ezekiel 28 is the twenty-eighth chapter of the Book of Ezekiel in the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. ... This chapter contains a prophecy against the king of Tyre and a prophecy against neighbouring Sidon, concluding with a promise that Israel will be "delivered from the nations".
Not one mention of cherub chata or Hebrew satan or Catholic Fallen Angels

[Dave]

Roman Edit = arrogant self-centered ego
In the age of the ahl Israel only represented 1% of the world
And Rome forces all reality be confined only to that 1%

Rome knows that the One True God – is the only creator therefore all theology must be from that 1% that was given the scriptures

OK – what is the theology of the ahl 1% - they stood alone against the 99% and the gods of the 99%
Who is the God of the 1% = YHWY
Who are the 33 other gods of the 99% - the Chaldean devils – the shedim – the shades –
Rome says they are Imaginary – not real – myth – fable

Jews knew exactly who they were – Gnostics know who they are – Paul knew who they are
When Jesus spoke of Beelzebub – the Jewish and non-Jewish audience knew who he was talking about
He is a Chaldean devil – a satanas. In fact he is king of the Chaldean devils satanas and all from the 99%

Rome says they are Imaginary – not real – myth – fable

Why would Rome deny the real enemy of the ahl?
Why would Robert work so hard to deny the archon of Eph 6 – our real struggle?
Why does Rome teach that God’s own angels hate God?
Why does Rome teach that even angels can fall from God Grace
Why does Rome teach Sun day + Dec 25th + lent for 40 days + Easter Sunday and its colored eggs and ham dinner?
Why does the SDA take it even further to make satan a god of evil and deny the soul of man?

Answer – Roman Christendom is not the same religion as Messianic Judaism
First Century style messianic Judaism has been usurped by Rome into a pro-satan religion
Look at the history of the Roman religion – is it an example of Christian love?

This is why I call myself a Gnostic Christian - to divorce myself from any Roman label
I long to be a Messanic Jew - my love is for YHWY - the one true creator - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - but I am only 12% Jewish DNA by my mother and father - so I have to rely on:

Gal 3:7  know then that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 

[Deleted]

Greetings Dillon and Dave, you both present fine research, but neither of you read Bible words, without the authority and traditions of men.

I notice your authority to claim what you both claim; Dave found and posted.... I quote"



jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/

Jewish Bible Quarterly – Harvard Divinity School

Ezekiel accomplishes this blending of the fate of Tyre’s king and Tyre itself by evoking imagery from Genesis 2-3.

King Tyre is described using the poetry images from Genesis 2-3.

The king is depicted as the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and flawless in beauty.

King Tyre is depicted as a cherub full of perfection, full of wisdom and flawless in beauty.

You were in Eden, the garden of God (Ezek. 28:12-13).

King Tyre was in Eden, the garden of Eden.

In an interesting and unexpected play on the Genesis story, the king is also identified as an angelic cherub.

King Tyre in an interesting and unexpected play, is in fact depicted as an angelic cherub.

WOW there you have it. You both follow the Harvard Divinity School, like good disciples of the Jewish Quarterly, so King Tyre is depicted as an angelic cherub.

I created you as a cherub with outstretched shielding wings;

God created King Tyre as an angelic cherub with outstretched shielding wings;

Again you both support these words by the Harvard Divinity School, like good disciples of the Jewish Quarterly, following the precepts and traditions of men.

And you resided on God’s holy mountain (Ezek. 28:14).

King Tyre resided even on God's holy mountain. Wow, fancy that King Tyre residing in heaven in God's power mansions right close to GOD.

In Genesis after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, God stationed cherubim as guards to protect the Tree of Life from violation by returning humans. In Ezekiel, however, it is the cherubic king that has transgressed and is punished by expulsion from God’s mountain.


WOW the angelic cherub King Tyre is punished for his transgressions and expelled from God's mountain. No mention of sin, just the word transgressed, which the Hebrew does not write.

Please bare with me, don't be upset:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly", whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Wine is a symbol of man made stuff, not GOD's truth, but man made truth.

Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly", shall be trodden under feet:

Why? Because the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" no longer read the Hebrew, but their own doctrines, the precepts and traditions of men.

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

So tell me when GOD invented poetry, do the similes really become literal as one picture, or do they represent literally something else? this is, other pictures?

I quote a poem I wrote long time ago spiritualsprings.org/ss-1569.htm

The purpose of showing readers a poem written at age 16, is to encourage your journey in Jesus. One does not begin knowing much of salvation. It is a journey of growing. We live by the experiences we are trained by. And wisdom, like training, takes time.

This poem was written between 1974 and 1977. I would be aged 16, in my second year at high school.

The one we publish for readers, is an ode to my Grandparents, who I loved dearly. The poem is also a simile parallel of many scripture themes.


Moonlit lillies trill quietly through,

Quivering over ripples as if to,

Cancel calmly this mirror,

For a warm face quivers nearer,

A man dressed traditionally true,

Rescues her watery life, anew;

Two rivers run slowly, an' shiver,

While a dam hold her sweetly,

As two lovers draw nearer.


I suggest you both try reading my poem written at age 16. It is complex and full of similes.
How you do take poetry similes? Are they real? Yes. But what do similes represent?

Who is the dam  in this poem?

Sure the picture of a dam is something that holds back water.

The water is also a simile of love.

So the dam holds back the flow of love from this woman who later becomes his wife.

Does this mean the poem is about rivers and dams, as you both want poetry similes to mean?

Or is it about humans in love on a journey ?

Here is another poem written at age 11?? not sure about that??

Home
There is a home of babbling brats,

A place of dogs, cats and rats;

In a time when things go bad,

When all get angry or go mad;

Was one such day,

Mr Dog crawled back,

And as you know,

Dogs "hate" cats,

So Dog bashed in ,

He was shouting,

Cat was complaining,

Reddening, maddening,

She was so mad,

Her face fell flat,

And as you know,

Cats "hate" rats,

So she screamed,

At those bawling brats,

In the home,

Of dog's, cat's and rat's.


So according to the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" this poem is about dogs, cats and rats, and how these animals are depicted as a human family? What does depicted mean anyway? a fancy term for simile?

Do you both really understand poetry similes?

Mt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in POETRY, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in POETRY?

Now what does the seed a simile of?

So according to the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" this poem is about a sower sowing seeds in the ground.

Is that it? nothing else depicted?

The Greek shows both words for sow and sower, the Hebrew does that same.

Mt 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in POETRY, saying, a LOVER went to LOVE
4 And when the LOVER LOVED some by the way side, and selfish men devoured His LOVE:
5 Some LOVE fell into proud receivers who had little interest in His LOVE:
6 And when the FATHER came to see, they were scorched; because they had no LOVING response from the Father's LOVER.
7 And some LOVE among the cares of this world, and the LOVING response died out:
8 But other LOVE fell into good ground, so the LOVE grew and responded in LOVE.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

But the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" didn't get this poem too well and didn't understand and said, why do you speak in poetry riddles?

What is a simile in poetry Dave and Dillon?

Something written that represents something else, that is also real.

The seeds in this poem are symbols of Jesus love that flow from His words.
The seeds in this poem are symbols of Jesus' words, that promise a flow of His love.

Good poems have many similes and one has fun understanding the complexity of the pictures.

Now how in the world can the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" publish this statement:-

King Tyre in an interesting and unexpected play, is in fact depicted as an angelic cherub.

I think you are not reading their words all that well. Notice the word "depicted", that is a word suggesting "like" or a "simile of".

King Tyre was like an angelic cherub, in something that is like a garden of Eden, yes I read the parallels too, hence why this woe is mentioned under King Tyre.
But the poetry also has another depiction, that of a cherub who was in the garden.

Don't you understand poetry similes?

Sure the dam holds back water.
Sure the husband holds back his wife's love.
But also both pictures run separately and together. That is the power of similes in poetry.

Sure dogs hate cats.
Sure men debate over their wives.
Sure cats growl at dogs.
Sure wives nag at husbands.
Both depictions run also separately and together, that is why the similes are chosen. Because both pictures can be blended and pulled apart. It's fun. But you cannot as you do make it entirely one picture. Similes have two pictures at least.

Sure Jesus is the word.
Sure the Seed is the power in the word.
Sure the Seed is about Jesus love.
Sure the Sower sows seed.
Sure some seeds germinate and some fail to germinate.
Both depictions run also separately and together, that is why the similes are chosen. Because both pictures can be blended and pulled apart. It's fun. But you cannot as you do make it entirely one picture. Similes have two pictures at least.

I feel for both of you, here is a summary of the Isaiah scroll about reading Scripture:

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men ( "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly"):

I however follow the Hebrew torah as the torah reads. Poetry similes are fun to unravel, and fun to explore, I suggest you try writing some complex poems. Make as many similes in them as possible. I did this many years ago:

Here is one of 14 such poems, with many similes written in child like understanding

spiritualsprings.org/ss-1570.htm

Day One

Mighty light in labour,

Dawns upon the earth,

Slowly she awakens,

Creation into renewed birth.

One humble insect,

On wing toiling long,

Diligently she gathers,

Her portion of nature's fuel,

Among coloured rainbows,

She sings buzzing song,

Obediently her faithful work,

Reflects His patterned rule.

No fruits of her work,

Are easy to see,

Let us question our role,

Of grace from Thee.

One humble servant,

Who sings Scripture's Word

Diligently he gathers,

His manna of Holy Fuel,

Faith outward active,

For he surrendered heard,

Responds without a question,

To our blessed Saviour's Rule.

For faith is nothing

Anyone can see,

We should be a worker,

In our Lord's mercy.


Faith is depicted as pollen, gathered by bees, who are depictions of humans.
Is this poem only about bees gathering pollen? Hardly.
This poem was written when I was 16 or 17 years old, and has many similes running through it. Built in highly structured style of 14 lines, each links the other themes.

I trust you learn to read poetry differently. Learn to understand what "depict" means. Unravel the similes in the Scriptures.

Shalom

[Dave]

All you have is Ezk 28 – two words rule your entire thinking
No wonder you think your satan rules all man

When you cannot answer question – you just point fingers and stop your feet and repeat Ezk 28

Prove to me that ahl satan hates God as you claim
Show me a pre-Catholic reference to fallen angels that hate God
Tell me why you think it a sin for ahl satan to obey God
Prove to me that ahl satan disobeys God

You refuse to answer – claim you don’t understand the question

Why are you anti-sematic – do you still blame them for killing Christ
Is this why you insist that everything they believe is error and Rome is correct –
But you claim not to be Catholic

I have asked you to tell me who are the shedim?
Who are the 33 other gods of the ahl?
And why don’t you have any idea who Beelzebub is?
Who is Allah?
Who are the gods of the Aborigine, or Native American, or South American?
Who are the gods of South East Asia?
Who are the Hindu gods?

Your best answer – they are all imaginary – they are not real
Just like your answer for our real struggle against principalities is imaginary – not real

If they are all imaginary – why did God speak of them in the ahl?
If they are all just your satan god – why all the different names – why doesn’t the word of God just call them Hebrew satan?

When you cannot answer questions – you just point fingers and stop your feet and repeat Ezk 28