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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 4:47:54 GMT -5
I have to apologize Dave, Martin Luther uses a different word for arche, and suggests polysemy? The normal word he uses is Anfang, but in some contexts uses a different German word. Luther also uses Anfang for Genesis 1:1, but fails to use it consistently for re'shiyth and the Greek arche. I checked other verses apart from eph 6:6, he uses two German words Fursten and Anfang. Depending upon context. He sees re'shiyth or arche as a polysemous word, whereas I don't. Fursten means prince? This is a problem for me? Maybe you are right, I am weird and all alone in my understanding of Scripture. I do not tolerate polysemy very well in any language, and would also question Luther here. So now I have no translator, I like. All of them have flaws, except Jeff Benner. He translates along the ideas I agree with. He is perhaps the only translator I would trust, but we do disagree over some things. Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 3, 2021 10:24:00 GMT -5
I have to apologize Dave, Martin Luther uses a different word for arche, and suggests polysemy?
So you admit – you arrogantly speak of things in absolute terms – yet have not fully studied the scripture
I am weird and all alone in my understanding of Scripture. I do not tolerate polysemy very well in any language, and would also question Luther here.
I do think you are alone in your error Your error backs you into corners you cannot escape
Precept upon precept, line upon line – has nothing to do with words or polysemy It is concept upon concept – principle upon principle – theme upon theme – reaching upon teaching – commandment upon commandment – over and over until you get it You destroy the entire concept with your word games
So now I have no translator If you choose to play the translations game at a scholarly level – it would really be a good idea if you learned to translate
Speaking as an expert on a subject you do not know opens you to criticism
I am weird and all alone in my understanding of Scripture The curious part for me – is that you oppose the very foundation of mainstream Judaism or Christianity
There is Only One God He freely grants the Divine Pardon to all the Prodigal Sons, regardless of birthright He came to earth as a man – suffered everything a man would suffer including mortal death So He could be resurrected in front of the whole WORLD
Life lives – there is life after death – not hopefully someday later - but right now!
Mainstream Christianity believes in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Some more than others – only you deny the possibility You have still not answered if you believe scripture is true when Paul says he was taken into heaven You avoid answering because – it is contradictory to SDA doctrine so you
AND – I have never heard of a Jew or a Christin that deny the soul of man
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Post by Dave on May 3, 2021 12:34:05 GMT -5
Why don’t all those other contacts take you seriously enough to engage you Answer – because you are not academically serious In fact – you have disrespect for academic accuracy
Once and for all – I attempt to expose your error in the treatment of words
Why do you translate the term arche as archon when it means beginning? R" Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against beginnings (arche), R"Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, nor angels nor beginnings (arche),
Eph 6:12 = αρχας - G746 Rom 8:38 = αρχαι - G746
G746 - ἀρχή - From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank)
Chief in order of time – the “First” time Chief in order of place – their “First” abode – the corner of a building Chief in rank – 3 men standing together and one of them becomes the alpha male Communities follow a chieftain – a mayor – a governor – a king – the “First” among the people
G746 - ἀρχή - From G756 G756 - ἄρχομαι - Middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence); to commence (in order of time): - rehearse from the) begin (-ning). = beginning G757 - ἄρχω - A primary verb; to be first (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over.
If you choose to argue translations – learn to translate Or at least use valid definitions You are forcing 3 to 5 different Greek words into one definition You think 3-5 different Greek word represent polysemy when all it represents is 3-5 different Greek words
Why are the PRINCIPALITIES – our real struggle – called archon
Chief in order of time – the “First” time a creature was made with some matter Chief in order of place – their “First” abode – first to be made in heaven and first to be cast into physical creation – the Cathar Gnostics (Gnostic Christians without the Nag Hammadi) saw Rev 12:3 as this event Chief in rank – of his offspring – and of physical creation – his domain / kingdom
After Gen 1:1 and Rev 12:1-2 The Great Red Dragon of Rev 12:3 = the First Archon with its 10 heads and 7 crowns The choshek of Gen 1:2 Followed by the Son that is the “Light of the world” Gen 1:3 and Rev 12:5
THE BEAST OF REVELATIONS Chief in order of time Chief in order of place Chief in rank
Your attempt to hide our true enemy is worrisome Why would a Christian help deny our real struggle as Christians
Instead you just embrace Catholic Fallen Angels and Halloween with its satan ghost and goblins And when the Archon return as Heros and Mighty Men of Renown - as in the Days of Noah No Catholic - or youself - (Western Christendom) will recognise what is in your sight Only Jews of the Kabbalah or Gnostic Christians will see them for who they are - DECIEVERS / ARCHON / FALSE PROPHETS / FALSE TEACHERS / biological creatures desiring worship = non-God gods / ARCHON
Eph 6:12 is real – alive – and in your face and you have done so much to deny the truth No such thing as Paul’s Principalities – no such thing as Solomon’s shedim Yet – argue that scripture is the infallible word of God
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 13:35:54 GMT -5
I can see and understand that Hebrew word meanings are broad.
So when a more detailed language such as Greek translates from Hebrew to Greek, they might choose more specific words into Greek.
I like how you explained re'shiyth:
Chief in order of time – the “First” time Chief in order of place – their “First” abode – the corner of a building Chief in rank – 3 men standing together and one of them becomes the alpha male
Beginnings : (1) The first time something happens, when that happens in time. eg "Go back to the beginning of the maths test and look where you went wrong".
(2) The first abode of matter, when matter is made eg "Go back to the beginning of this building, and you will find a time capsule there".
(3) The first rank or chief of order. eg "He is the beginning of of your soldiers rank and command. He is your overall leader".
In other languages, we might have specific words for these different contexts, but surely there is nothing wrong leaving the words as I wrote them, and allowing the reader to form a more specific word meaning for that translation. That way I remain more fixed on the Hebrew, rather than compose the meaning in the context for the reader. I find as Jeff explains, too many translators suggest meanings because it is too difficult to allow the reader to read the awkward meaning in the Hebrew. I would rather read the Hebrew, so I know the translator is faithful to the task.
D" Eph 6:12 is real – alive – and in your face and you have done so much to deny the truth No such thing as Paul’s Principalities – no such thing as Solomon’s shedim Yet – argue that scripture is the infallible word of God
R" Yes the text is alive. But you are making the word "re'shiyth" into a creature, when it simply means the beginning something happens.
You do not like my easier Hebrew wordings, "cherub chata" found in Ezekiel, much easier to follow, and does not require a scholar to translate.
You say it's not Jewish. Maybe. When the Jews were captured in Babylon, did they ALL seek GOD there or did some seek BABYLON influence and thus founded a Satanic secret religion, over the top of Judaism ? Have you considered this?
And since Jesus spoke to the Jews saying ye are of your father the devil, it implies many Jews in high places were following a leader who did not want to be exposed in the torah. Have you considered this?
Why do you think, as Jeff explains the letter of Ancient Hebrew, meaning twisting, evil or crooked, is lost? Have you considered this?
Do you suppose some archonic power wanted to intentionally confound the torah as much as possible?
Sure Solomon speaks of shedim. I have no problem with devils. These are functional descriptions of the work of sinning angels.
I read the Messanic Bibles message every when they arrive by email:
today it is on courage: (you think Jewish, help me out)
“Be strong and bold; have no fear or dread of them, because it is the Lord your God who goes with you; He will not fail you or forsake you.” (Deuteronomy 31:6)
Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. ... Do not be frightened or dismayed, for YHVH (the Lord) your God is with you wherever you go.” (Joshua 1:8–9)
R" This is amanuah, so why don't Jews get amanuah, and experience God empowering their lives? Or perhaps they do?
And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant to your servants to speak your Word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Yeshua.” (Acts 4:29–30)
R" This is wonderful
“They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.” (Acts 4:31) Sometimes we need to ask the Holy Spirit to refill us with His strength.
R" This is weird. I thought the Jews see the HS as feminine. Why is this article writing the HS as masculine? Why do they ask the HS for strength? Isn't the HS an agency for Yeshua or the Father?
A Jew should have written this: Sometimes we need to ask the Holy Spirit to refill us with the Father's strength. But it is not written this way. Why is that?
It is a reminder that the value of studying the Bible is not merely for personal spiritual development but to strengthen one another morally, spiritually, and intellectually so that we can step into courageous acts of obedience to God’s Word.
R" This is amanuah, so why don't Jews get amanuah, and experience God empowering their lives? Or perhaps they do?
Chazak Chazak: We stand as one. Chazak Chazak. We must be strong. Chazak Chazak. We will go on.” (lyrics to “Chazak Amenu”) R" If Jews understand echad as many becoming one, why can't they see this also with GOD?
But these words alone cannot do what the power of God’s Spirit residing in us can!
R" Why can't these words have power? Don't they seek them in faith of GOD? Arn't they God's words? When we are weak, then He is strong. In fact, His strength is made perfect in weakness … perfect! (2 Corinthians 12:9)
R" nice torah promise.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 3, 2021 23:14:32 GMT -5
I like how you explained re'shiyth:Chief in order of time – the “First” time Chief in order of place – their “First” abode – the corner of a building Chief in rank – 3 men standing together and one of them becomes the alpha male In other languages, we might have specific words for these different contexts, but surely there is nothing wrong leaving the words as I wrote them, and allowing the reader to form a more specific word meaning for that translation. That way I remain more fixed on the Hebrew, rather than compose the meaning in the context for the reader. I would rather read the Hebrew, so I know the translator is faithful to the task. Again let me say – there is no value in your post if you violate academic accuracyFirst – you openly admit you cannot translate Then – you demand your translation of the English back to the original Hebrew So you can play word game with scriptureMy response – you do not translate – you transliterate – and do a very poor job of it as well Let’s see if - the translator is faithful to the taskNum 1:2 (LXX) Λάβετε ἀρχὴν πάσης συναγωγῆς υἱῶν Ισραηλ Num 1:2 (KJV)Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, H7218 – רֹאשׁ - From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literally or figuratively (in many applications, of place, time, rank, etc.): - band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief (-est place, man, things) Gen 40:20 And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. H8269 – שַׂר – śar - From H8323; a head person (of any rank or class): - captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-]) master, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward. Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. H1060 – בְּכוֹר - From H1069; firstborn; hence chief: - eldest (son), first-born (-ling). 1Sa 13:18 And another company turned the way to Bethhoron: H7218 – רֹאשׁ - From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literally or figuratively (in many applications, of place, time, rank, etc.): - band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief (-est place, man, things) Let’s see if - the translator is faithful to the task - GEE – not so wellI like how you explained re'shiyth:Academic seriousness – If you make a statement back it up with scriptural fact- not Robert’s trilateration guesses D" Eph 6:12 is real – alive – and in your face and you have done so much to deny the truth No such thing as Paul’s Principalities – no such thing as Solomon’s shedim Yet – argue that scripture is the infallible word of God R" Yes the text is alive. But you are making the word "re'shiyth" into a creature, when it simply means the beginning something happens.ABSOLUTE GARBAGE COMING FROM YOUH7218 – the head, captain, chief is a creature H8269 – śar - a head person, prince is a creature H1060 –firstborn; hence chief: - eldest (son), first-born is a creature H7700 - shêd / shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil. –is a creature Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: Tit 3:1 = Magistrates are real creatures Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Corners are real 3D corporeal objects Rom 8:38 / Eph 3:10; 6:12 / Col 1:16; 2:10; 2:15 = Principalities – real creatures Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, the principles Sure Solomon speaks of shedim. I have no problem with devils. These are functional descriptions of the work of sinning angels.Solomon never called them angels – or described them as angels but as ugly creatures made of matterSolomon said they were the offspring of Beelzebul Are your angels fathered by a creature of matter Or do your angels father creatures of matter So Confusing - please present a consistant doctrine - or Ill just think you just a gamer - someone playing ganmes Academic seriousness – please try to stick to the facts – is that possibleDeuteronomy 31:6 Joshua 1:8–9 R" This is amanuah, so why don't Jews get amanuah, and experience God empowering their lives? Or perhaps they do?Jews are just people – just like Christians today Why doesn’t everyone get it – because the WORLD gets in the way And now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant to your servants to speak your Word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Yeshua.” (Acts 4:29–30) R" This is wonderful – yet you doubt the gifts of the spirit“They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.” (Acts 4:31) Sometimes we need to ask the Holy Spirit to refill us with His strength. And you call it Glossolalia and mock itConfusing – is it a beautiful thing – something to be mocked? You argue both view in the same breath Academic seriousness – please present a consistent view – or arguing your view is meaningless
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 4:34:16 GMT -5
D" Academic seriousness – please try to stick to the facts – is that possible R I will try. You are right, I am no translator, but would love to study the subject if electronic interlinear software was available, which it isn't. So if you are willing, please help me with some queries: I have to go to alot of trouble to make a Paint view of the electronic software I have. It shows the Textus Receptus. Notice the red box shows a Greek word already exists for magistrates? Is this true? So there should be no reason to use a Greek word if one already exists in Greek?? In Luke 12:11, what causes a translator to see "kai tas" to be something? "And the" The use of these words seems to suggest some definite article.... In the synagogues, the priests functioned in certain ways, this was established from the "beginning" by GOD, so why can't this be the reference? It is strange indeed I agree to use the word beginning in this was... but we are not thinking like a Jew... "And they bring you unto the Synagogues, and the beginnings, and the powers,... etc" Titus 3:1 is worse, the Greek needs to be rearranged... Why is autum next to arche ? Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 4, 2021 8:33:04 GMT -5
So if you are willing, please help me with some queries:
I have to go to alot of trouble to make a Paint view of the electronic software I have. It shows the Textus Receptus.
Tit 3:1 (Textus Receptus) ῾Υπομίμνῃσκε αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι, πειθαρχεῖν, πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἑτοίμους εἶναι,
Tit 3:1 (Textus Receptus +) υπομιμνησκε G5279 V-PAM-2S αυτους G846 P-APM αρχαις G746 N-DPF και G2532 CONJ εξουσιαις G1849 N-DPF υποτασσεσθαι G5293 V-PMN πειθαρχειν G3980 V-PAN προς G4314 PREP παν G3956 A-ASN εργον G2041 N-ASN αγαθον G18 A-ASN ετοιμους G2092 A-APM ειναι G1510 V-PAN
Copy paste and done – e-sword – a free gift of the Christian community Approximately 55 free translations available FREE – used in every seminary I have ever been associated with Used by every pastor I have studied with
Notice the red box shows a Greek word already exists for magistrates? Is this true? G3980 – πειθαρχέω - From a compound of G3982 and G757; to be persuaded by a ruler, that is, (generally) to submit to authority; by analogy to conform to advice: - hearken, obey (magistrates).
G3982 – πείθω - A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield. + G757 - ἄρχω - to be first (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over.
πειθαρχέω = G3982+G757= magistrates
ἀρχαῖς = G746 - ἀρχή - From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
So there should be no reason to use a Greek word if one already exists in Greek?? OK G746 and G3982+G757 are 3 different Greek words Why would a translator take 3 different words mash them together and say the must all mean the same thing? OK - ἀρχαῖς and πειθ-αρχέω Ok – rulers and rulers over you Ok - sarim (rulers), to shiltonim (authorities),
(YLT) Remind them to be subject to principalities and authorities, (TLV) Remind the people to be submitted to rulers and authorities, (ASV) Put them in mind to be in subjection to rulers, to authorities, (OJB) Remind them to be " V'NISHMA" (" obedient, and we will obey!" SHEMOT 24:7) to sarim (rulers), to shiltonim (authorities), (ESV) Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities,
In Luke 12:11, what causes a translator to see "kai tas" to be something? "And the" The use of these words seems to suggest some definite article....
καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς = and the archon = and the rulers,
In the synagogues, the priests functioned in certain ways, this was established from the "beginning" by GOD, so why can't this be the reference?
BECAUSE IT IS NOT WHAT THE GREEK LANGUAGE SAYS καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς – is a noun – not and adverbial prepositional phrase of when, where, or why
Luk 12:11 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the rulers, and the authorities,
It would more correct to say 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the first in power, and the authorities, 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the first in rank, and the authorities, 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the cheif in rank, and the authorities,
In Greek as in English prepositional phrases work the same
ἐπὶ τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς καὶ τὰς ἐξουσίας, ἐπὶ –epi – in front of or before – as in epicenter
Before the συναγωγὰς and the ἀρχὰς and the ἐξουσίας
Therefore we know all these words belong together – same expression – same thought before the synagogues, and their rulers and their privileged
Why do you even try to twist scripture into something it is not You should have more respect for the word of God
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 13:11:06 GMT -5
Why do you even try to twist scripture into something it is not You should have more respect for the word of God
I am trying to respect the translation process.
OK
It would more correct to say 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the first in power, and the authorities, 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the first in rank, and the authorities, 'And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the chief in rank, and the authorities,
Maybe the English term for re'shiyth is wrong.
What about these sentences?
Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Ge 1:1 From the first, God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel,.. Ge 10:10 From the first, of his kingdom was Babel,..
Ex 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land.. (no change required)
De 11:12 .. from the beginning of the year De 11:12 .. from the first of the year
Job 8:7 Though thy beginning was small, Job 8:7 Though thy first was small,
Ps 105:36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength. Ps 105:36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the first of all their strength.
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the first thing;
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against firsts, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to firsts and powers, to obey magistrates,
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, (no change required)
You have to admire the problem for a translator Dave. It this any better? You have to at least agree words should not have polysemy. However some might. In this case, re'shiyth refers to the first thing done in time, the first rank of something, the first abode of something, or the first powers established. My point from looking at the above sentences, re'shiyth does not ever refer to the name of some creature, as you allude to, ie archon.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 4, 2021 15:03:56 GMT -5
First – you openly admit you cannot translate Then – you demand your translation of the English back to the original Hebrew So you can play word game with scriptureMy response – you do not translate – you transliterate – and do a very poor job of it as well Maybe the English term for re'shiyth is wrong.YES ROBERT – your word game fails youWhat about these sentences?Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against firsts, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, First what – in time, order, or rank Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, Tit 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to firsts and powers, to obey magistrates, First what – in time, order, or rankIt this any better? You have to at least agree words should not have polysemyThen why do you deliberately try to sneek it into this academic conversationIn this case, re'shiyth refers to the first thing done in time, the first rank of something, the first abode of something, or the first powers established. Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Ge 1:1 From the first, God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. In ἀρχῇ - prepositional phrase of when, where, or whyEx 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land.. (no change required) Of ἀρχῇ - prepositional phrase of when, where, or whyDe 11:12 .. from the beginning of the year De 11:12 .. from the first of the year From ἀρχῇ - prepositional phrase of when, where, or whyJob 8:7 Though thy beginning was small, Job 8:7 Though thy first was small, Though In ἀρχῇ - prepositional phrase of when, where, or whyMy point from looking at the above sentences, re'shiyth does not ever refer to the name of some creature, as you allude to, ie archon.You seem to be correct - ἀρχῇ - when used as a prepositional phrase of when, where, or why aligns with re'shiythHowever – when used as a noun it means ruler, or governorNum 1:2 = H7218 Gen 40:20 = H8269 Exo 12:12 = H1060 Luk 12:11 And Tit 3:1 = Magistrates are real creatures Act 10:11 Corners are real 3D corporeal objects Rom 8:38 / Eph 3:10; 6:12 / Col 1:16; 2:10; 2:15 = Principalities – real creatures Why would anyone claiming to be a Christin spend so much time and effort into denying our real struggle or our real enemyMakes one wonder whose side of your Great Controversy you are on
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 14:39:22 GMT -5
Why would anyone claiming to be a Christian spend so much time and effort into denying our real struggle or our real enemy
Do you have an enemy of GOD Dave?
I do, but you don't.
Please answer my question. Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 5, 2021 22:56:08 GMT -5
Do you have an enemy of GOD Dave?
Job 23:13 He is unchangeable, and who can change Him? Whatever His soul desires, He does.
NO one can oppose God – what a ridicules idea and Catholic Invention God is the absolute – God is the Creator - His Will on earth as in heaven – His Plan
The only creature that has a choice is man – and man’s choice is to love God or not No one else every had the Free Will option until Rome gave it to your satan and the Fallen Angels
I do not affectionately love your wife – does this mean I hate her and oppose her I do not affectionately love your PM – does it mean I hate him and oppose him If I did think my voice here in Colorado would harm your PM or your wife – I would just be full of myself If I thought I was a god – and made the entire nation pray to me – I would just be fooling myself
If I think I am a god – how does that harm God the Creator as he set back and laughs at me
Adam and Eve is a story about man – mankind / every man Job is a story about man – mankind / every man Ezk 28 is a story about man – mankind / every man Isa 14 is about man – mankind / everyman
Man is the creature than can choose And man is the creature that sins – and brings sin into the world
As a result – God placed man into a Contest of Gen 3:15 Man against WORLD – and man against the archon the masters of WORLD
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 3:46:36 GMT -5
The only creature that has a choice is man –
I see. Why does Jesus say the devil is a murderer and a liar, these are sins, which require the mind to sin. Hence the devil must have a free will mind that can sin, NOT your Gnostic account that archons were intentionally created with SELF , by God; and hence do RA, but this is not seen as sinning.
Please explain how you are not violating the torah by saying the above.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 6, 2021 10:45:24 GMT -5
The only creature that has a choice is man –the devil is a murderer and a liar, these are sins, Please explain how you are not violating the torah by saying the above.SIN = the choice to disobey GodWhat was the angel of death in Exodus? In the Hebrew Bible, the destroying angel (Hebrew: מַלְאָך הַמַשְׁחִית, mal'ak ha-mashḥit), also known as mashḥit (מַשְׁחִית, 'destroyer'; plural: מַשְׁחִיתִים, mashḥitim, 'spoilers, ravagers'), is an entity sent out by Yahweh on several occasions to kill the enemies of the Hebrews. jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5018-death-angel-ofmashḥit - DEATH, ANGEL OF. In the Bible death is viewed under form of an angel sent from God, a being deprived of all voluntary power. The "angel of the Lord" smites 185,000 men in the Assyrian camp (II Kings xix. 35). "The destroyer" ("ha-mashḥit") kills the first-born of the Egyptians (Ex. xii. 23), and the "destroying angel" ("mal'ak ha-mashḥit") rages among the people in Jerusalem (II Sam. xxiv. 15) No Jew believes that angels have Free WillAngels do what they were created to do Cows do what they were created to do And Archon just do what they were created to do Man is the creature that can choose – 100% Jewish and always has beenPre-meditated and deliberate Murder – angel of death Was this creature obeying God Will / God’s Plan – or disobeying God?You demand that the deceiving serpent was a liar1 Kings 22 – a deceiving spirit is a liar – in the service of the Lord Was this creature obeying God Will / God’s Plan – or disobeying God?Why do the SDA preach it is a sin to obey the Lord? Why do the SDA preach it is a sin for a Lion to feed its family And why do the SDA preach that it is a sin for a virus to obey the Lord by being fruitful and multiplying Please explain why the SDA are not violating the torah
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 14:14:34 GMT -5
This person answers your question well, using similar lines as I have answered before:
I quote"
In 1 Kings 22:19-23, there is a troubling passage in which we are told that God used a lying spirit to deceive Ahab. Does God really use evil, lying spirits to do His bidding? Why would God do such a thing? To find the answer to this question, we need to learn a little background about King Ahab, and also understand something about the sovereignty of God.
King Ahab was the son of Omri, and he reigned over Israel in Samaria for 22 years (1 Kings 16:29). Continuing the example of his father, Ahab did evil in the sight of God by worshiping Baal and “did more to provoke the Lord God of Israel than all the kings of Israel that were before him” (1 Kings 16:33). Ahab again and again proved he was bent on evil, evidenced by his continued refusal to listen to the prophet Elijah’s warnings. Ahab accused Elijah of troubling Israel by the drought, but Elijah declared that it was Ahab’s own sin that caused the troubles for the nation (1 Kings 18:18). Since Ahab had declared war on God by killing His prophets (v. 13), God then brought the war to Ahab in the form of a contest (1 Kings 18:19-40) between the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal on one side, and Elijah on the other. When God miraculously verified Elijah’s status as His true prophet, Ahab should have repented, but he remained in his sinful rebellion, fueled by the wicked anger of his wife, Jezebel.
In many subsequent incidents, God again showed His power and mercy to Ahab, but the king refused to submit and obey Him. Finally Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, came to visit him and Ahab persuaded him to join in battle to take Ramoth-Gilead from the Syrians. Wisely, Jehoshaphat insisted that they seek God’s will in the matter, so Ahab brought 400 false prophets together, who all assured him that God would give them victory (1 Kings 22:6). Jehoshaphat recognized their falsehood and asked whether a true prophet of God could be summoned. Ahab acknowledged that Micaiah was a true prophet, but he hated him, because “he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad” (1 Kings 22:8).
Micaiah was brought before the kings and delivered God’s final warning to Ahab. He said that if they went to war, they would be defeated and left without a king. Ahab replied, “didn’t I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?” (1 Kings 22:18). Ahab was again rejecting the clear warning from God, and choosing a path of wicked rebellion. In response to Ahab’s constant choice of sin, God revealed some of the inner workings of the spiritual world.
God had already pronounced a death sentence upon Ahab (1 Kings 20:42, 21:19), but had given him opportunity to repent of his wickedness. With this final rejection of God’s counsel, God determined to carry out the death sentence. Since Ahab continued to prefer the lies of his false prophets over the truth given by God’s prophets, God chose to use the false prophets to carry out His plan. When God asked for volunteers to “entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there” (1 Kings 22:20), a spirit (fallen angel/demon) said he would be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets. God gave the spirit permission to proceed, and Ahab received the message he desired.
God chose to use a lying spirit because Ahab rejected God’s rebukes and warnings all through his life and the cup of God’s wrath was full. Since God is sovereign over all of creation, He is not restricted in what or whom He can use to accomplish His holy purposes. All of creation is under His authority, and He chooses to use people and spirits, both good and evil, to bring His divine plans to pass and bring glory to Himself. “He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: ‘What have you done?’" (Daniel 4:35). In the case of Ahab, God chose to using a lying spirit to accomplish His perfect and righteous plan (Psalm 18:30). The lying spirit will receive its punishment just as Ahab did, and those who repent of their sins will receive forgiveness just like Ahab could have. The real question is, “Will I respond to God’s warnings with faith and obedience, or will I reject His counsel and be rejected by Him?”
End quote
And this writings has another view, I like "
I quote"
God, who cannot lie, sent a deceiving spirit that people would believe a lie. Why would he do this? Actually, the demonic force would do what it naturally does in God by giving it permission to go and live. Ultimately, it was used in God’s sovereign plan to accomplish what he desired.
God sends a lying spirit: 1 Kings 22:22, “And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'” God cannot lie: Titus 1:2, “in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago.” This is an anthropomorphized account of a spiritual reality. In other words, it is a human representation of what happened in the spiritual realm. If you take a look at the text you can see that God is asking questions.
v. 20 “The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. v. 21 “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ v. 22 “The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ v. 23 “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.” Did God need to ask questions so as to learn? Was he trying to figure out what was going to happen? Of course not. Since God knows all things (1 John 3:20) and he has ordained whatsoever shall come to pass (Ephesians 1:11), he already knew who would step forward to do the deceiving. God was carrying out the sovereign plan that he had predestined to occur; in this case, the destruction of Ahab by the use of his own false prophets. Consider this…
“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You did anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur,” (Acts 4:27-28).
God predestined the death of Jesus at the hands of Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews. Yet God was not the one who forced them to sin. When we say that God ordains, or that he predestines something bad to happen, we’re saying that he is allowing it to happen by his sovereign will. We call this his permissive will. It is his will to permit it, because it is part of his greater plan. He plans to permit it. He could alter it, but he decides not to do so.
( I recognize this as the most common SDA answer, God's permissive will and God's ultimate will)
Likewise, in 1 Kings 22:22, God was revealing to us the reality of the spiritual realm, though in human terms, of His ordained sovereign plan by which Ahab would be destroyed by the counsel of his false prophets.
Does this mean that God who sent a deceiving spirit is a deceiver himself? No, God sending a deceiving spirit does not mean that he is a deceiver. He was merely sending a demonic force, allowing it to perform what was natural to it, to do something that was part of the greater plan of God.
End quote.
Than there is another different view, which was interesting to read
I quote"
The Bible teaches that God does not lie (Heb.6:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)), so how is this possible:
1 Kings 22:20Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And the spirit said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
The answer is that this did not literally happen, God did no such thing. The idea that God really put a lying spirit in anyone’s mouth comes from not reading the full context.
King Ahab and his court prophets 1Kings 22:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) For three years Syria and Israel continued without war. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat the king of Judah came down to the king of Israel. 3 And the king of Israel said to his servants, “Do you know that Ramoth-gilead belongs to us, and we keep quiet and do not take it out of the hand of the king of Syria?” 4 And he said to Jehoshaphat, “Will you go with me to battle at Ramoth-gilead?” And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses.”
The context is that the king of the northern kingdom, Israel, wants to persuade the king of the southern kingdom, Judah, to join his war. But to do so he has to convince the doubtful, and pious, king of Judah, that the war is what God wants. So Ahab marshals his ‘house prophets’, the ones who say what Ahab wants. This event appears to be after Ahab’s repentance from Baal worship (1 Kings 21:25Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)), so these appear to be prophets of Yahweh not Baal — albeit it the Yahweh who was worshipped in golden calves at Bethel and Dan, rather than the true Yahweh who was worshipped in the temple at Jerusalem.
1 Kings 22:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “Inquire first for the word of the Lord.” 6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go to battle against Ramoth-gilead, or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.”
However the king of Judah is nervous — how can he believe these prophets of the Lord who eat at Ahab’s table and worship at Bethel and Dan? So Ahab reluctantly is forced to send for Micaiah, a real prophet.
1 Kings 22:7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there not here another prophet of the Lord of whom we may inquire?” 8 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “There is yet one man by whom we may inquire of the Lord, Micaiah the son of Imlah, but I hate him, for he never prophesies good concerning me, but evil.” And Jehoshaphat said, “Let not the king say so.” 9 Then the king of Israel summoned an officer and said, “Bring quickly Micaiah the son of Imlah.”
Then follows the performance of Ahab’s house-prophets, led by Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah:
1 Kings 22:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) Now the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah were sitting on their thrones, arrayed in their robes, at the threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria, and all the prophets were prophesying before them. 11 And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made for himself horns of iron and said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘With these you shall push the Syrians until they are destroyed.’” 12 And all the prophets prophesied so and said, “Go up to Ramoth-gilead and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.”
Following this performance, the guards bring, under protest, Micaiah:
1 Kings 22:13 Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, “Behold, the words of the prophets with one accord are favorable to the king. Let your word be like the word of one of them, and speak favorably.” 14 But Micaiah said, “As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I will speak.” 15 And when he had come to the king, the king said to him, “Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we refrain?” And he answered him, “Go up and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” 16 But the king said to him, “How many times shall I make you swear that you speak to me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?”
It is not clear why Micaiah’s positive answer brings anger from the king. Perhaps it is far too easy. Or perhaps there was a note of sarcasm in the response, which we do not pick up in writing. Or alternatively the king realised that “Go up and triumph” is not the same as “You will surely triumph”, and that Micaiah did not say which king — he may secretly have meant the king of Syria! In any case Micaiah’s next comment is wholly negative:
17 And he said, “I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And the Lord said, ‘These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.’”18 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?”
So he was predicting the victory of the king of Syria… not of Ahab.
Micaiah’s famous lying spirit prophecy
19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
There are several indications that this “vision” is ironic, if not sarcastic.
First, the context; does a prophet of God suddenly produce a “vision” to order? Prophecies can be spur of the moment, but visions generally come at night or in deep prayer (2 Sam.7:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Job 33:15Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Ezekiel 1:1Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). The instant nature of this “vision” suggests the false prophet visions of Jer.23:16Open in Logos Bible Software (if available).
Second; the prophets of Ahab have already said what Ahab wants to hear, and it is evident that the prophets of Ahab need no encouragement from angels to lie.
Third; nowhere in the Bible do we find the teaching that the court of heaven is an indecisive democracy with God asking for advice or ideas from the “host of heaven” (Hebrew, Sabaoth). Nor do we have one angel saying one thing, one saying another. This sort of heavenly court is found in Canaanite myth — for example in the little we know about Baal — but totally unknown in the Bible, since God is a God who does not take advice (“who hath been his counsellor? Isa 40:13-14Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), etc.). Then God agrees to be behind a lie, a deception. Again this is almost unheard of in Bible (“Let God be true though every one were a liar Rom.3:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), etc.) until the exception of the “great delusion” of 2Thess.2:11Open in Logos Bible Software (if available).
There’s a particular oddness about the use of “host” here rather than “angels”. The basic meaning of angels (messengers, malakim) is appropriate to the sending of a lying spirit, whereas “host” (sabaoth, armies) is not always positive in the Old Testament. The first reference to the “host of heaven” (Det.4:19, 17:3) is to forbid their worship, then we have positive mention of the Lord of Hosts at Shiloh (1Sam.1:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) but then again negative references associating their worship with Baal (2Kings 17:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), 21:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Jeremiah 8:2Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), Acts 7:42Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). In fact, of 18 uses of the phrase “host of heaven”, at least 15 are negative, and of the remaining 3, 2 probably refer to literal stars in the sky.
Fourth; Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah clearly understood it as sarcastic, and aimed at himself:
1 Kings 22:24Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “How did the Spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?” 25 And Micaiah said, “Behold, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide yourself.”26 And the king of Israel said, “Seize Micaiah, and take him back to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king’s son, 27 and say, ‘Thus says the king, “Put this fellow in prison and feed him meager rations of bread and water, until I come in peace.”’” 28 And Micaiah said, “If you return in peace, the Lord has not spoken by me.” And he said, “Hear, all you peoples!”
Note in particular: “How did the Spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?”. The meaning is clear enough — you Micaiah say that I’m lying with a spirit from the host of heaven in my mouth, well who is to say that you are not lying yourself? And to go with that, slap!
The end of the story is predictable enough. Despite Ahab having disguised himself and put Jehoshaphat in the line of danger, a random arrow struck Ahab, but Jehoshaphat survived. We do not read of the end of Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah on the day when he goes into an inner chamber to hide himself, but this too is assumed. It would not be unlikely that Ahab’s widow Jezebel had him killed for the “lying prophecy” which killed her husband. It’s not as if she needed an excuse to kill a prophet of the Lord, even one of the Lord who was worshipped in the golden calves.
Conclusion In sum, there’s nothing in the above that suggests that there was a literal meeting of the Sabaoth in heaven where God asked for their suggestions. Or that that’s how God’s court works at all. It’s simply an ironic prophecy, like so many of the prophecies of Elijah and Isaiah. It’s also possible that Micaiah may have sown in the irony some commentary about the religious views of the prophets of the golden calves, the ones who worshipped at Bethel and Dan. We simply don’t know — we have no information on the religion of the northern kingdom other than a few glimpses in Kings and Chronicles and Isaiah-period prophecies against “Ephraim”. It’s also possible that the later comment comparing Manasseh’s building of altars to the host of heaven in Jerusalem being “like Ahab” (2Kings 21:3-5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) indicates that Ahab had done the same at Bethel and Dan.
It also isn’t out of the question that these northern prophets had, during the years when they were forced to worship Baal by Ahab’s wife Jezebel, absorbed some of the Canaanite ideas about a heavenly court with an indecisive and fallible god (Baal), and let that distort their view of the God of Israel. At least we know that Det.4:19 predicts and Acts 7:42Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) confirms that worship of the “host of heaven” was a continuing problem in Israel and Judah. In either case, the context and strange language looks like Micaiah is attacking Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah with his own beliefs — much as Jesus parodied Pharisee beliefs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
In all, this “vision” is not a secure base to argue that God literally helps false prophets to do what comes naturally — lie.
End quote.
These three writings give us plenty of material to work with.
EGW suggests as you point out the lying spirit was Satan. I suspect since Ahab was evil and wanted to do evil, GOD is showing us how and where evil comes from.
You twist the context to mean GOD is the ultimate source of evil and ra. And that a sinning angel is simply obeying the Lord, to do what naturally comes to that angel. These writers and myself would not agree with you.
"Just because you are now naturally doing evil , does not mean GOD who uses you, is in charge of you doing your evil, or is somehow responsible for your evil you do". God can use good people and bad people to accomplish His purpose. Cyrus is a good example of that. So if Ahab wanted to do evil, God allows Satan to be His Master. If Ahab wanted to be good, GOD sends His Son to be His master.
You ignore the fact that SIN is involved in this passage.
These three writers are not violating the torah as you claim I am. Now while I am happy to answer you questions, you are not happy to answer mine.
What narrow sense your GOD is, to think man is the only intelligent being in all the universes of GOD to have free will, and that this free will requires the testing with archon beings of ra (sin).
I suspect there are trillions of intelligent beings with free will, including angels, and that after trillions of zillions of years (time doesn't exist in heaven) one angel decided to sin. The human creation is simply the result of sin from one angel, who in turn caused other angels to sin using deceit and deception, a lying spirit. Humans are here to witness against the SIN that came.
You claim this lying spirit was created as a lying spirit, and that GOD asked for volunteers to some angels to become sinning angels. Thus it is OK for good angels to become sinning angels, since one angel term Satan volunteered to be the lying spirit. Because GOD asked for a volunteer. This idea is FALSE.
Does the passage really ask for this? Does GOD really ask for a Being to lie? That would mean GOD is a lying spirit also, since God is also asking for a lying spirit to volunteer? You have a really strange idea of sin. You think GOD can break his own laws of love, thus sin, and this is OK. God cannot lie. Therefore GOD cannot sin, or break His own laws.
God once asked a prophet to burn cakes with human dung and the prophet refused to obey, because obeying God would also be breaking one of GOD's laws of torah. So GOD must have been testing the prophet to see how infallible these laws of GOD are. God cannot ask sinning sinners to sin, and this is OK. Such a thing would break the character of GOD, and GOD does not SIN.
Nor would GOD create RA creatures who sin, but this is not sin, as they have no free will. You really push confusion and ponder a GOD of confusion don't you? Either GOD is NOT a liar, or GOD is a sinning god who can violate His own laws of love.
My GOD chooses not to violate His own laws of love, thus chooses not to sin, and when Ahab wanted to sin again and again, GOD allows the master of sin to control him. God did not ask for a volunteer, as you imply, read the writers I posted.
Now you answer my query,
Is a Devil termed Satan and shedim is a murderer and a liar from the beginning, this implies this BEING has free will to sin. Jesus spoke this to the Jews who were control by this Being, and hence were children of this Devil.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This verse suggest the Devil and His angels are cursed, ready for everlasting fire.
Do you ignore all these other verses of precept upon precept verses as well?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 7, 2021 7:00:30 GMT -5
This person answers your question well, using similar lines as I have answered before: I quote" In 1 Kings 22:19-23 God then brought the war to Ahab in the form of a contest Yes – God brought the war – You say your God cannot do that (God of Love only – God of tov only – is war tov)In many subsequent incidents, God again showed His power YES – God show his power in a loving war – a war of love because your God is only tovGod determined to carry out the death sentence You God of Love and tov only commits murderGod chose to use the false prophets to carry out His plan. YES – for the 25 Millionth time – God has a staff for thatWhen God asked for volunteers to “entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there” (1 Kings 22:20), a spirit (fallen angel/demon) said he would be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets. God gave the spirit permission to proceed, and Ahab received the message he desired. The injection of “a spirit (fallen angel/demon)” is an obvious bias – the text does not say this – this is a catholic assumptionGod is sovereign over all of creation, He is not restricted in what or whom He can use to accomplish His holy purposes. YES – 100% Gnostic – God uses them as a tool to facilitate his willAll of creation is under His authority, and He chooses to use people and spirits, both good and evil, to bring His divine plans to pass and bring glory to Himself. “He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: ‘What have you done?’" (Daniel 4:35). YES – 100% Gnostic – God uses them as a tool to facilitate his willAnd this writings has another view, I like " I quote" God, who cannot lie, sent a deceiving spirit that people would believe a lie. YES – God sent the satan spiritGod sends a lying spirit: YES – God sent the satan spiritGod predestined the death of Jesus at the hands of Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews. You disagree with this statement – over and over you claim that it was satan that want to kill Jesus – but this statement says God Plan all the time – Hmmmm?Yet God was not the one who forced them to sin. When we say that God ordains, or that he predestines something bad to happen, we’re saying that he is allowing it to happen by his sovereign will. We call this his permissive will. It is his will to permit it, because it is part of his greater plan. He plans to permit it. He could alter it, but he decides not to do so. YES – 100% Gnostic – God uses them as a tool to facilitate his will I recognize this as the most common SDA answer, God's permissive will and God's ultimate will)YES – 100% Gnostic – Always God’s Will / God’s Plan – God is in control and - God uses them as a tool to facilitate his willLikewise, in 1 Kings 22:22, God was revealing to us the reality of the spiritual realm, though in human terms, YES - The reality of the spiritual - Does this mean that God who sent a deceiving spirit is a deceiver himself?No, God sending a deceiving spirit does not mean that he is a deceiver. He was merely sending a demonic force, allowing it to perform what was natural to it, to do something that was part of the greater plan of God.YES – 100% Gnostic – Always God’s Will / God’s Plan – God is in control and - God uses them as a tool to facilitate his will. Than there is another different view, which was interesting to read I quote" The answer is that this did not literally happen, God did no such thing. The idea that God really put a lying spirit in anyone’s mouth comes from not reading the full context.Sure – scripture is a lie – I’m done There’s a particular oddness about the use of “host” here rather than “angels”. The basic meaning of angels (messengers, malakim) is appropriate to the sending of a lying spirit, whereas “host” (sabaoth, armies) is not always positive in the Old Testament. 2 groups – one of the Right hand and one on the Left hand one of the Right hand and one of the Left hand Angels and Archon – each created for a specific role / function / just like cows and termites EGW suggests as you point out the lying spirit was Satan. OKYou twist the context to mean GOD is the ultimate source of evil and ra. Isa 45:7 – God does all these this for he is God And that a sinning angel is simply obeying the Lord, In every example the archon did exactly what God wanted them to do – did they disobey God?"Just because you are now naturally doing evil , does not mean GOD who uses you, is in charge of you doing your evil, or is somehow responsible for your evil you do YES – 100% Gnostic – Always God’s Will / God’s Plan – God is in control and - God uses them as a tool to facilitate his willYou ignore the fact that SIN is involved in this passage. So – it is a sin if God uses you like a tool So - it is a sin to do God will So – it is a sin to obey GodThese three writers are not violating the torah as you claim I am. I agree – but your assumed conclusion are always skewwed to the same biased answerYour God is a Feel Good God and only does tov – except you fill the page of examples of God using the ra to facilitate God’s Will – Ye you cannot admit that God uses the ra to facilitate God Will on earthNow while I am happy to answer you questions, you are not happy to answer mine. BRING IT ON!I suspect there are trillions of intelligent beings with free will, including angels, Your assumption!Nor would GOD create RA creatures who sin, God would not make man – sure Robert Either GOD is NOT a liar, or GOD is a sinning god who can violate His own laws of love. My GOD chooses not to violate His own laws of love, thus chooses not to sin, Now you answer my query, Yet – you fill the page with examples of God using the ra to facilitate God Will So – make up your mind double speakerIs a Devil termed Satan and shedim YES – the Beast, the devil, and all the archon, evil spirits can all be called a satanI think I have pointed this out beforea murderer and a liar from the beginning, this implies this BEING has free will to sin So Lions, bacteria, viruses, cows, and birds are all few will chooses?Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: This verse suggest the Devil and His angels are cursed, ready for everlasting fire. Do you ignore all these other verses of precept upon precept verses as well? Why don’t you just read your scriptureJude and 2 Peter tell us that the Gigori are held accountable for the thing they did in the flesh Sins against man and nature – in the flesh – on the ground Now that you have done your best – where is all your Torah proof – all I see here is the precepts of memAll you have done here – is validate everything I have been saying to you YES – 100% Gnostic – Always God’s Will / God’s Plan – God is in control and - God uses them as a tool to facilitate his will
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