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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 14:42:14 GMT -5
D"Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. If the your angels are a part of the HOST of heaven – or they are not beast on the ground – then where do your angels exist? – Or are you suggesting the scripture references to angels are myth? R" could this refer to the whole of creation for man was created, the host, not necessarily all the things God created. If you make this true, than only one universe exists, ours?
D"Before then did not know or care that they were naked R" who said we were naked in our sinless state?
Ps 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: (KJV) We were clothed in solid radiant colours by the HS as light wrapping over our bodies, is my hypothesis.
When we sinned the HS shrank, immediately exposing our nakedness and a loss of power from God.
D"Afterwards – they knew Afterwards they know the difference between tov and ra R" NO immediately they knew what sin means, missing God's power in their lives...
D"The biology of man did not change R" how do you know? They became fearful...
D" The only thing that happened was knowledge R" No they experienced a sudden loss of the powers from God flowing into them, the HS shrank around them, and they experienced a flow of sin.
D"To be Born Again - is a return - a restoration to that which we once were R" How can that be, if you speak of a angelic spiritual body, not a restoration of the sinless biological body Adam had before the fall?
D"Adam and Eve - could see the spirit realm because they are spirit R" OH so now you say Adam had a spirit body, yet chose to sin and got a biological body afterwards?
D"You claim that all life on the planet changed - you claim that even the planet itself changed R" Yes. chata means to be missing the powers of God flowing. If things are missing from your living, than your dying. Simple. That includes atoms as well, but atomic world has not nephesh, only physics, but you get my drift. Atoms became more unstable.
D"Scrioture says - the only thing that changed was the spiritual relationship between man and God R" so death was always in the natural sinless world than?
D"So why did she take a bite? R" because the cherub deceived her, by lying, making truth seem OK mixing it with lies. Normally sinless people are gullible to deception. The cherub serpent lied. D"What happened when she took a bite? R" Eve immediately felt a loss of the flow of power from God into her living status.
She became fearful naked and a sense of pride (self) developed. D"We are spirit – we are already like angelic bodies – we are just trapped within biology R" OH, so when Eve sinned her angelic body got swapped for a biological body instead, and the spirit was pulled down into the biological body? Question how did the biological body get created so fast?
And what of the rib, is that a spirit part of Adam, not a biological part? D"Big deal – the angels supt with Abraham R" Oh, so spirit bodies can eat and talk and drink, sounds all like a biolgical body to me? What's the difference than?
RP" And yet this new body that eats food can pass right through solid walls. Also this new body Jesus had , still had the old scars on his hands. D" Yep – NOT 3D Biology – changed – like the angels – ethereal R" Show me the torah verse where upon sinned Adam became a flesh body, lost his spirit body.
Its says the body of Adam became carnal, fleshy, subject to death. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 4, 2021 19:04:20 GMT -5
D"Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. If the your angels are a part of the HOST of heaven – or they are not beast on the ground – then where do your angels exist? – Or are you suggesting the scripture references to angels are myth? R" could this refer to the whole of creation for man was created, the host, not necessarily all the things God created. If you make this true, than only one universe exists, ours?I have no idea what you are trying to sayThere is a multi-verse of 10D of reality – one angelic type for each DD"Before then did not know or care that they were naked R" who said we were naked in our sinless state?Eve did as soon as she took a biteD"Afterwards – they knew Afterwards they know the difference between tov and ra R" NO immediately they knew what sin means, missing God's power in their lives...Yep – they know the difference between tov and ra – that is what I saidD"The biology of man did not change R" how do you know? They became fearful...You have to grow horns or something before you be afraid? Fear come from knowledge = it was their perception of the world that changedD" The only thing that happened was knowledge R" No they experienced a sudden loss of the powers from God flowing into them, the HS shrank around them, and they experienced a flow of sin.Yep - (yester ra) in full command – that is what I saidD"To be Born Again - is a return - a restoration to that which we once were R" How can that be, if you speak of a angelic spiritual body, not a restoration of the sinless biological body Adam had before the fall? Your pretend ignorance is not fashionableI quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless D"Adam and Eve - could see the spirit realm because they are spirit R" OH so now you say Adam had a spirit body, yet chose to sin and got a biological body afterwards? Your pretend ignorance is not fashionableI quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless D"So why did she take a bite? R" because the cherub deceived her, by lying, making truth seem OK mixing it with lies.Yep – because she did not know better – she was ignorate of the difference between tov and ra – that is what I saidD"What happened when she took a bite? R" Eve immediately felt a loss of the flow of power from God into her living status.Yep – because she did not know better – she was ignorate of the difference between tov and ra – that is what I saidShe became fearful naked and a sense of pride (self) developed.Yep – they know the difference between tov and ra – that is what I said (Yester ra) - self - pride I quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless D"We are spirit – we are already like angelic bodies – we are just trapped within biology R" OH, so when Eve sinned her angelic body got swapped for a biological body instead, and the spirit was pulled down into the biological body? Your pretend ignorance is not fashionableI quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless D"Big deal – the angels supt with Abraham R" Oh, so spirit bodies can eat and talk and drink, sounds all like a biolgical body to me? What's the difference than?4- Assuming Human Form There is some debate among the great Jewish philosophers whether the angels that the Torah describes as appearing actually assumed a visible physical form,14 or they appeared in the course of a spiritual vision or prophecy—in which the angels appeared as physical beings.15 According to all approaches, however, seeing an angel requires extra-sensory perception, as the bodies of the angels are not comprised of all the basic elements of a physical being. 4- YES – angels or archon – do they really take human form – or do they just make man see whatever they want man to see Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosis D" Shape-shifting – doesn’t happen in truth – you just see it in your mind – a planted image - hypnosisR" Yes You disagree with yourself - are you sure you know what you believe?RP" And yet this new body that eats food can pass right through solid walls. Also this new body Jesus had , still had the old scars on his hands. D" Yep – NOT 3D Biology – changed – like the angels – ethereal R" Show me the torah verse where upon sinned Adam became a flesh body, lost his spirit body.Its says the body of Adam became carnal, fleshy, subject to death. Your pretend ignorance is not fashionableI quote "This learning process involves asking a lot of questions about the text and about each other’s ideas about the text"Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 5:09:01 GMT -5
Dave replies to my questions with "Your pretend ignorance is not fashionable - Academic Honesty – Integrity – seriousness and honest is required – or the study is worthless-"
Can you at least try to explain how two humans with spirit bodies, suddenly when after sinning, get biological bodies that cause the body to die? I don't get you at all. I am being honest.
Wasn't Eve made from a rib? Biological part of a body.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2021 5:22:26 GMT -5
Can you at least try to explain how two humans with spirit bodies, suddenly when after sinning, get biological bodies that cause the body to die? I don't get you at all. I am being honest.
No one said anything about switching bodies There is zero chance you have not heard me say – the spirit of man was mated to the body in Gen 2:7 There is zero chance you have not heard me say – Man is (spirit – yester tov) + (biology – yester ra) There is zero chance you have not heard me say – Man is a spirit having a physical souljourn
There is zero chance you have not heard a Rabbi say – the spirit of man was mated to the body in Gen 2:7 There is zero chance you have not heard a Rabbi say – Man is (spirit – yester tov) + (biology – yester ra) There is zero chance you have not heard a Rabbi say – Man is a spirit having a physical souljourn
Your pretend ignorance is just a game you play More of that Academic Honesty
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 5:29:50 GMT -5
D"There is zero chance you have not heard me say – the spirit of man was mated to the body in Gen 2:7
R" Pardon? What does this mean? "mated", are you saying Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies but were placed intentionally by God into biological bodies? Is that it?
If this is so, why not just use the spirit body, why place the spirit into a biological body?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2021 6:32:34 GMT -5
D"There is zero chance you have not heard me say – the spirit of man was mated to the body in Gen 2:7 R" Pardon? What does this mean? "mated", are you saying Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies but were placed intentionally by God into biological bodies? Is that it?
Your pretend ignorance is obvious
You have spoken about possession before – possession by evil spirit – what of Jesus and the Legion But you cannot understand how a spirit can be inside your body You talk about the HS coming inside of us But you cannot understand how a spirit can be inside your body Scripture says – the spirit of man returns to God –who gave it But you cannot understand how a spirit can be inside your body – so you deny scripture
The entire point of Judeo-Christianity is the salvation of the soul – and you claim man has none
If this is so, why not just use the spirit body, why place the spirit into a biological body? It is called – wait for it – FREE WILL – choice How do angels or spirits in heaven choose world? How do termites choose spirit and heaven? Only man is (spirit – yester tov) + (world/biology – yester ra)
The Father let us go – or sent us into this WORLD – to witness to it – Jer 1:5 The WORLD is waiting to devour – Rev 12:3-4 Love comes with a risk There is the RISK of being devoured by the WORLD – trapped by sin But the REWARD of the PRODIGAL SON = the HARVEST = salvation
From God we came – into this WORLD – to witness God’s Glory to this WORLD for all the heavens to see We come into this WORLD as (yester tov because we know God and the truth) + (WORLD/biology/ with its self-preservation instinct yester ra )
Gen 1 God created the humanoids – animal Gen 2:7 Adam was created – spirit+biology and Adam became a human being Now Adam / man has a choice – yester tov – or yester ra This is FREE WILL – choose mitzvah or chata – choose yester tov or yester ra This is why the Rabbis say – man is the creature than can choose
It is not complicated – It is not a mystery It is the theology of all Jews It is the theology of all Christians – I thought until I met you and the SDA
Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi Library And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 14:08:52 GMT -5
I still don't follow you?
Can you answer my questions please?
If the spirit with its spirit body enters the biological body, why than does the sin arising from the biological body affect the spirit and the spirit body?
D"You talk about the HS coming inside of us
R" Yes but that makes two entities, one divine (the medium of God, in which the HS functions as a medium so the power of GOD flows into the human), and one human ( the biological part from which humans become living energy, with a nephesh that has intelligence and free will).
These two entities are distinct and separate, one divine and one human.
D"But you cannot understand how a spirit can be inside your body
R" not your idea of spirit, you have a spirit of your own, with a spirit body of your own, hence your spirit has total control over every aspect of living and function. This makes you, a spirit, immortal and possibly divine? An idea I find false. Only God is divine and immortal.
I do not understand why a spirit body would want to invade and mate with a biological body.
In my view, the Shadday allows the function of the medium, in which GOD dwells with matter, so that matter becomes living energy. No mention of a spirit body here, or a spirit. The matter becomes alive and able to function with GOD, talk and develop it's own love response to God. The breathing of this matter in partnership with God (nashamah) becomes your spirit, your character and the essence of you, with God. You often mention the spirit returns to God, is ruwach, "medium" the HS a functional aspect of the Shadday. This is not anything to do with humanity. You are twisting Hebrew meanings.
Remove powers of GOD from your matter, and your nephesh ceases to exist.
You speak of two bodies here, the spirit and the flesh. I have no notion of two bodies in such a sinless state.
Sure when Adam sinned, his sinless body changed into a fallen body, hence before and after sin, the biological body changed, from non-corruption to one of corruption.
But you speak of a spirit body invading and possessing the biological body.
Shedim, devil fallen cherubs can do this to humans, because the medium by which administrates the flow of good into man, has also a medium ability to allow Satan to channel a flow of bad into man, via the same channel that sustains man. The evil spirit does not become a human in possession, it overpowers the cognitive processes of the human mind, because the human wanted this influence. If God removes the evil spirit cherub, than the human mind returns to itself, with God allowing the mind to freely choose which master rules the soul.
But you present the ability of the spirit and the spirit body to somehow become mated to a biological body? To me makes not sense at all. And you did not explain your meaning at all.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2021 18:52:43 GMT -5
4 selections from STUDIA GDAŃSKIE TOM XL IVAN PLATOVNJAK SJ Faculty of Theology University of Ljubljana Slovenia
Man as a Spiritual Being 1- Mistaken concepts concerning man’s physical, mental, and spiritual dimension are present not only in philosophy and theology, but also in practical spiritual life. If this distinction is not considered, confusion and many misconceptions of man’s spiritual dimension and thus his spiritual life can arise. YES – the aim of false teaching is to spoil one’s spiritual life2- The reader should realize that the modern age often defines man only as a psychophysical reality integrated into a social environment. The concept of „soul” has been slowly merged with the concept of „psyche” and has thus obtained an entirely psychological flavor. Human has become a subject of psychology, sociology as well as politics and economy. Špidlik and Rupnik warn that this mentality has gradually penetrated the Catholic Church resulting in a misconception of spirituality in general and of Christian spirituality in particular, which is something people are often not aware of: spiritual life has been mixed or even blended with the inner and intimate YES – Modern Catholic thinking has led people to think their soul/spirit is just the thoughts they thing with their biological brain – deny the spiritual embrace the WORLD3- Man as a Spiritual Being mental life, limited to the world of thought, will, and sentiment7 . In this way, spiritual life becomes mental and is limited only to the life of thought, will, and emotions. Considering the inner or spiritual life as a complete equivalent to a non-material and ethereal life is a pitfall in any circumstances. If man’s spiritual dimension is considered an equivalent of his intellect, that is his area of thought and ideas, then man is fostering a spirituality that does not lead him to religiosity, but to idealism or intellectualism. Yep – the goal of false teaching is - Man as a Spiritual Being mental life, limited to the world of thought, - is a pitfall - then man is fostering a spirituality that does not lead him to religiosity, but to idealism or intellectualism.4- In the New Testament, Paul explicitly emphasizes this in two places: „May the God of peace himself make you perfectly holy and may you entirely, spirit (pneûma), soul (psychê), and body (sôma), be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thes 2:23). ----------- spirit (pneûma), soul (psychê), and body (sôma)As a multi-dimensionalist 1st D is a singularity 2nd D is spirit 3rd D is body spirit (pneûma), soul (psychê), and body (sôma)My spirit = my sub-conscious – it is there – it is the real me – the invisible me– and it knows better- but it is not in the driver’s seat – but it is there convicting us all the time if we listen (yester tov) Conscious me – thinking me = my brain which is just a product of my body spirit (pneûma), soul (psychê), and body (sôma) Sub-Conscious me – Conscious me- and body Sub Conscious me is always there (yester tov) – just NOT in the driver’s seat of my body (yester ra) Upon mortal death - Sub Conscious me (spirit) returns to God - Conscious me- and body to dust Some want to make a big deal about spirit – different than soul different than body – 3 parts to man Dualism says – (Just me – the real me – spirit me) + Conscious me- and body that return to dust Dualism – spirit (out of the body) soul (trapped with the Body) – not different things just different locations If you prefer psychology – Freud said - ID – Ego – Body Great Classic Scifi movie – Forbidden PlanetA civilization became so advanced that they made a machine that could supply their every wish But once they became so in love with their creation (King of Tyre) Monsters from their ‘ID’ came out at night when they slept and destroyed everythingI still don't follow you? – Sure you don’t – you just don’t want to Can you answer my questions please? If the spirit with its spirit body enters the biological body, why than does the sin arising from the biological body affect the spirit and the spirit body?Romans chapter 7 – Miserable man that I am So I am 18 and male – if I get an erection in church – do I have to apologies to the Lord – repent event? Do I have to get on my knees and apologies for being an animal – or does he already know that Instead of apologizing – we should be praising the Lord for a way out and forgiveness R" not your idea of spirit, you have a spirit of your own, with a spirit body of your own, hence your spirit has total control over every aspect of living and function. I wish you we correct – but biology and (yester ra) are a powerful influence over our choice makingThis makes you, a spirit, immortal and possibly divine? YES – spirit is immortal – because it is not mortal and will never suffer a mortal death The spirit is released and returned to God for judgement An idea I find false. Only God is divine and immortal.Yes – only God is divine – CorrectHowever there many immortal being in creation – angels will NEVER die a mortal death because they also are not mortal I do not understand why a spirit body would want to invade and mate with a biological body.One Jewish view = Eve choose to enter the lower WORLD to fulfill her mission of Jer 1:5 How can she do Jer 1:5 in Eden – she choose to be a missionary for the Lord Adam and Eve – went into potential hell to Jer 1:5 Another view – we are sent into this WORLD to Jer 1:5 Another view is that we are sent here to weed the chaff from the Fruit (Harvest) Another view is that we are sent here – to endure – to appreciate our salvation Another view – is just that of the Prodigal Son Returning to God by our own free will In my view, the Shadday allows the function of the medium, in which GOD dwells with matter, so that matter becomes living energy. Sure – at the very base of the multiverse – the ether / matrix / sustainerSure when Adam sinned, his sinless body changed into a fallen body, hence before and after sin, the biological body changed, from non-corruption to one of corruption.Sure – and he began to suffer entropy as all creation does – the first death But also – there was a spiritual change in relationship – man put a cloud of sin (disobedience) up in the way of us being able to see – what we know is there
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 14:01:03 GMT -5
D" YES – spirit is immortal – because it is not mortal and will never suffer a mortal death The spirit is released and returned to God for judgement Yes – only God is divine – Correct However there many immortal being in creation – angels will NEVER die a mortal death because they also are not mortalR" How can the spirit be immortal? While God is also immortal? How can both be immortal? How can angels be immortal? Moses Manimadies said the cherubs are representing angels. So if a cherub sinned, the cherub cannot be immortal, for the penalty of sin is death. The lake of fire shows us that any creature God doesn't like, including cherubs are destroyed forever in the fire. Also including humans. Both of these creatures have sinned. D" One Jewish view = Eve choose to enter the lower WORLD to fulfill her mission of Jer 1:5 How can she do Jer 1:5 in Eden – she choose to be a missionary for the Lord Adam and Eve – went into potential hell to Jer 1:5
Another view – we are sent into this WORLD to Jer 1:5 Another view is that we are sent here to weed the chaff from the Fruit (Harvest) Another view is that we are sent here – to endure – to appreciate our salvation Another view – is just that of the Prodigal Son Returning to God by our own free willR" Arn't these answers seeking to explain we our free wills chose to sin? I was asking you why the spirit with it's spirit body would want to mate with a biological body? OH, hmm? (light-bulb moment) are you saying Adam and Eve, were created with a spirit body that became a biological body only after they sinned? What is wrong with the idea Adam and Eve has a unfallen body that became a fallen body after they sinned? In this view, the body remains biological all the time. You seem to think this is strange. But Moses was 40 days with God and never ate or drank food. We also have Ellen White in vision for several hours not breathing a single breath, validated by several witness, and invited by others to investigate. SO the biological functions of the body are not required all the time with God. If you are with God, like angels are, you do not need to eat, drink or breathe. Have you considered this? D" Sure – and he began to suffer entropy as all creation does – the first death But also – there was a spiritual change in relationship R" we agree , so why do you cling to this spirit view, when it's not needed? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 7, 2021 5:51:49 GMT -5
R" How can the spirit be immortal? While God is also immortal? How can both be immortal? How can angels be immortal? We have been all over this argument at least twice, or thrice, or 10 or 15 times beforeYou misrepresent the word immortal – please buy a dictionary word manMortal = made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D world To be NOT mortal = not made of flesh and bone of this world Are angels mortal? Will they die a death like mortal man – old age – disease? So if a cherub sinned, the cherub cannot be immortal, for the penalty of sin is death.You misrepresent the word immortal – please buy a dictionary word manThe lake of fire shows us that any creature God doesn't like, including cherubs are destroyed forever in the fire. Also including humans. Both of these creatures have sinned. Where doses Rev 20 speak of cherubs being cast into the Lake of Fire? - I want to see the word! - I want to see the verse!I was asking you why the spirit with it's spirit body would want to mate with a biological body?D"One Jewish view = Eve choose to enter the lower WORLD to fulfill her mission of Jer 1:5 How can she do Jer 1:5 in Eden – she choose to be a missionary for the Lord Adam and Eve – went into potential hell to Jer 1:5 Another view – we are sent into this WORLD to Jer 1:5 Another view is that we are sent here to weed the chaff from the Fruit (Harvest) Another view is that we are sent here – to endure – to appreciate our salvation Another view – is just that of the Prodigal Son Returning to God by our own free will R" Arn't these answers seeking to explain we our free wills chose to sin? I was asking you why the spirit with it's spirit body would want to mate with a biological body?No – these are reason why a spirit would choose /want/desire to enter this WORLD as a mortal man So we can do our assignments / job / commission/ function – Jer 1:5OH, hmm? (light-bulb moment) are you saying Adam and Eve, were created with a spirit body that became a biological body only after they sinned?Just make up crap Robert – see if it impresses anyone with your intellect – all I see here is negative attitudeWhat is wrong with the idea Adam and Eve has a unfallen body that became a fallen body after they sinned? Yes – what you say is correct In this view, the body remains biological all the time. Yes – biology remains biology all the time D"Sure – and he began to suffer entropy as all creation does – the first death But also – there was a spiritual change in relationship R" we agree , so why do you cling to this spirit view, when it's not needed?But also there was a spiritual change in relationship – you agree – yet deny the spiritualDo you hear yourself talk – do you read this over before you post You agree but you disagree – very consistent – double speaking flip flopping
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2021 14:22:04 GMT -5
D" We have been all over this argument at least twice, or thrice, or 10 or 15 times before You misrepresent the word immortal – please buy a dictionary word man Mortal = made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D worldR" Dave, you need a dictionary? www.bing.com/search?q=mortal+meaning&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mortal+meaning&sc=8-14&sk=&cvid=5B6DF3BA73F34F83BF06A287BF0B8BF2mortal ADJECTIVE (of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death.NOT Dave's idea "made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D world" immortal ADJECTIVE living forever; never dying or decaying
Dave says"Mortal = made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D world" OK Dave show me some dictionary or some Scripture that defines mortality as "basar", flesh and bone. The term refers to the ability to die, decay, experience death. --------------------- D" Where does Rev 20 speak of cherubs being cast into the Lake of Fire? - I want to see the word! - I want to see the verse!Not Rev 20 directly : but by association Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. All creatures that cause the origin of death and therefore hell, are case into the lake of fire:- Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. aggelos= cherub, Moses Mainaides commentary says this, Rabbi Apple says the cherub sinned, hence many other cherubs also sinned long before man sinned, like Sodom, these cherub will experience Sodom. D "No – these are reason why a spirit would choose /want/desire to enter this WORLD as a mortal manR" you write brief brevity all the time Dave, can't your theory stand scrutiny? Why would a spirit in a spirit body want to become a biological body, as a mission idea? How are these any different? Both are sinless and both have free will ability to love God? What is your point? Than you agree with me the unfallen biological body when sinning becomes a fallen biological body. So I don't get the reason to have your spirit idea? The Devil Cherub lied to Eve, thou shalt NOT surely die. Question: Is the devil cherub going to surely die? Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Yes, says so right here. The mischief dies for his mischief. D" Just make up crap Robert – see if it impresses anyone with your intellect – all I see here is negative attitudeR" No I am trying to evaluate your theory, but you don't explain it. If a spirit in a spirit body is sinless, why is there a need to do a mission and enter a biological body? When is a Bible text for this idea? Explain . D" But also there was a spiritual change in relationship – you agree – yet deny the spiritualR" I don't deny the spiritual Dave. The change in the spiritual was a change in the flow of powers from GOD via the HS, when upon sin, the HS shrank immediately around us, making us lose our covering, and we became naked. This is a spiritual change right there.
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1027.htmRead this sermon of mine, the Lost Covering. D" You agree but you disagree – very consistent – double speaking flip floppingR" You are assuming power over the ruwach, that is not yours. The power of GOD is given to you, to use or abuse, your choice, yes. But you cannot assume the ruwach is your spirit. Another hebrew term used with the breath of life is nashamah, the idea to breathe, and this word is about the spirit of man, his ability to make characters like GOD. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 7, 2021 15:02:29 GMT -5
D"We have been all over this argument at least twice, or thrice, or 10 or 15 times before You misrepresent the word immortal – please buy a dictionary word man Mortal = made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D world R" Dave, you need a dictionary? www.bing.com/search?q=mortal+meaning&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=mortal+meaning&sc=8-14&sk=&cvid=5B6DF3BA73F34F83BF06A287BF0B8BF2mortal - (of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death. Yep – a 3D being, a human being – not a heavenly divine beingNOT Dave's idea "made of flesh and bone like all the animals of this 3D world"I am so done with your ignorant conversation – you cannot even repeat a dictionary without corrupting it to fit your doctrine(google) are angels immortal According to rabbinical Judaism, the angels have no bodies, but are eternally living creatures created out of fire and occasionally appear in Midrashim as competition with humans. Heavenly beings, strictly following the laws of God Biology Dictionary > Mortal 1. Destined to die. 2. Pertaining to or causing death. www.thefreedictionary.com/mortalmor·tal (môr′tl) a. Liable or subject to death; not immortal: mortal beings. b. Of or relating to humans as being subject to death: www.yourdictionary.com/mortalMortal meaning A human. That must eventually die. Of a human being considered as a being who must eventually die. A being who must eventually die; esp., a human being; person. Susceptible to death by aging, sickness, injury, or wound; not immortal. Fatally vulnerable; vital. A human; someone susceptible to death. Of this world. The quality of being mortal; mortality. D" Where does Rev 20 speak of cherubs being cast into the Lake of Fire? - I want to see the word! - I want to see the verse! Not Rev 20 directly : but by association – only if you use the Robert word game does it say this – I seeScripture says these are the Beast, the devil, satanas, the serpent race that Genesis tells us are bilogical - and therefore mortalD"No – these are reason why a spirit would choose /want/desire to enter this WORLD as a mortal man R" you write brief brevity all the time Dave, can't your theory stand scrutiny? Why would a spirit in a spirit body want to become a biological body, as a mission idea? I am sad you deny – you role in life – Jer 1:5 Just as you deny most everything Christian = I know who you areThan you agree with me the unfallen biological body when sinning becomes a fallen biological body.Yes – man became mortal – I have said this many timesIf a spirit in a spirit body is sinless, why is there a need to do a mission and enter a biological body? When is a Bible text for this idea? Explain .I am sad you deny – you role in life – Jer 1:5You have already admitted – you do not witness to everyone – some people don’t deserve to be witnessed to because they are scientist and like to speak in fact – not made up religious gobbelbly gookI know who you areD"But also there was a spiritual change in relationship – you agree – yet deny the spiritual R" I don't deny the spiritual Dave. You absolutely deny than man has a spirit - can you even be truthful with yourself
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Post by Dillon on Oct 8, 2021 7:54:08 GMT -5
Dave , you are wrong
If the satan is an angel, then satan will die in the Lake of Fire. If this is true then one angel will die in the end making one angel mortal.
Robert, you are wrong
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Satan is the devil, is the great dragon, is that old serpent of Gen 3
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made.
Satan is a beast of the field
Gen 3:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
cursed art thou above all cattle, and above every beast of the field Satan is a beast of the field
and above every beast of the field Satan is a beast of the field
upon thy belly shalt thou go Satan is a beast of the field
dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Satan is a beast of the field
thy seed Satan is a beast of the field, who has children
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast
The devil, who is the satan, who is the beast, who is that old serpent in the garden is cast into the lake of fire. Satan is a beast of the field, who has children
Dave, you are wrong, if Robert is correct. However, satan is not an angel he is a beast of the field, who has children, and eats dust. He is call the BEAST not the angel
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Post by Dave on Oct 8, 2021 10:02:15 GMT -5
Dave, you are wrong, if Robert is correct. However, satan is not an angel he is a beast of the field, who has children, and eats dust. He is call the BEAST not the angel
Thank for this – it is not a mystery nor is it complicated – it is spelled out plainly There is a bigger issue a foot
It isn’t the identity of satan that matters as much as the theology Rome teaches- the entire concept of Fallen Angels diminishes God – and that is the real focus, to discredit God and corrupt scripture.
YHWY walked and talked with the Jews for 3000 years In all that time – God was absolute , earth was seen as a gift to man, beautiful, paradise, the promised land flowed with milk and honey, there was only One True God, only One True Creator – who created everything – the good and the bad – all for Him – for His purpose – according to God’s Will/God’s Plan.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
In all that time – the real enemy was – war with man – nation vrs nation YHWY –vrs- all the ‘other gods’ of the 99% in all their many forms – and there are many of them – 33 by name + their demons and devils
The Messiah comes into the WORLD The only thing that change in theology = The Messiah came and gave us the Gospel The only thing that change in theology – we are given more information – the Gospel and the writings of the First true Christians
What does this new information ADD to the theology – it opened the Divine Pardon to the 100% What does this new information ADD to the theology - our real struggle – Eph 6:12 What does this new information ADD to the theology – the identity of The Beast, satanas, devil, serpent, What does this new information ADD to the theology – the age of the Gentile – the reunification of Israel – the remarriage of the Northern Kingdom to Judea
Then Rome tales over the religion – then man takes over the religion – then the Beast, with its (yester ra) greed and lust for power and wealth takes over the religion
If the Beast suddenly started offering new theology – it would be an obvious deception Rome didn’t offer new theology – they just tweaked the doctrine – to make satan a god
The doctrine of Fallen Angels – diminishes God – God cannot even hold His own angels God is not absolute – we heard about God Will and Plan – yet we are taught that God’s Will and Plan for us cane be altered by an angel Robert has said – this is no longer God’s beautiful paradise – it is satan’s work and all the nature we see is the result of evil
One True and Absolute God – has become a pantheon of gods that includes satan as the god of evil Once – there was only God’s creation – now Rome has two kingdoms – God’s and satan’s
In the ahl In all that time – the real enemy was – war with man – nation vrs nation YHWY –vrs- all the ‘other gods’ of the 99% in all their many forms – and there are many of them – 33 by name + their demons and devils
Robert has been taught to deny all of it Other gods are mythical – there is only satan and his evil kingdom
The doctrine teaches – that even angels can fall from God’s Grace
And suddenly we have an entire new religion called Catholicism with a MAN as the top authority on earth – One absolute God has become 2 or more and that are locked in an eternal Controversy
R” 1Th 4:16 For the Lord "YHWH" himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the "first rank chief messenger", and with the trump of "elohiym-powers": and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The YHWH cannot be the Father-YHWH here because this being is the chief messenger for the Father-YHWH, and by association is the SON-YHWH, who comes as the chief messenger, as the trumpet of "elohiym-powers" and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Robert absolutely denies that Jesus Christ was the Image of God on earth Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Robert denies scripture
And according to Moses Mainmanedes, the cherubs represent angels: Roberts word game to corrupt scripture Cherub = angels always – so he can say Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his "cherubims" fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his "cherubims"
Rev 12:7 Καὶ ἐγένετο πόλεμος ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ· ὁ Μιχαὴλ καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι αὐτοῦ τοῦ πολεμῆσαι μετὰ τοῦ δράκοντος· καὶ ὁ δράκων ἐπολέμησε καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι αὐτοῦ, No cherubims there Robert – he is making it up
To me – he said – Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
D"Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cheruv. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; Dose not say the King of Tyre is an angel/messenger – it says he is the guardian of his kingdom R" Who is playing word games now? Where is your "guardian" term coming from? Not from this Scripture directly? Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Eze 28:14 (TLV) You were an anointed guardian cheruv. I placed you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among stones of fire. Ezk 28:14 (OJB) Thou art the keruv mimshach (anointed cherub) that guardeth; and I have set thee so; thou wast upon the Har Kodesh Elohim; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of eish.
R" Who is playing word games now? Where is your "guardian" term coming from? Not from this Scripture directly? Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Roberts word game – if he does like what scripture say – he calls scripture a liar Other places such as Luke 16 he calls fairy tales And he has never admitted it – but he cannot believe in 2 King 6 – Elisha couldn’t see anything spiritually – its another fairy tale
It is just obvious that Robert does not study scripture – he just pushes satan as a god It is obviouse he is also not here to study - but to push his satan god
OH – and the idea of being a Born Again Christian and being able to spiritual discern is a false doctrine according Robert – man has no soul to save - he teaches it is a sin to even think man has a soul. – So when you read your scripture about the salvation of the soul – you become confused – and his Christianity falls a part
How can there be a promise for the salvation of the soul – if man has no soul – it is a lie to think we have a spirit
D there is absolute no way I consider this SDA crap anywhere close to teaching Christianity / Messianic Judaism / Gnostic Christianity – Robert and the SDA have an entirely different religion with multiple gods and a denial of spiritual salvation – that all revolves around their satan god belief
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 16:24:22 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
This phrase you quote so often Dave, simply is saying God is all knowing. Before we are a fetus, God knows all the things the creature will do. What has this go to do with a spirit and a spirit body? Nothing.
It is speaking in the context of a biological body, and the GOD who forms the development knowing your thoughts before you think them.
Greetings DIllion
I suggest you read the comments of Moses Maimonedes, the cherubs are angels. I suggest you understand Rabbi Apple who alludes that one cherub sinned before God and lost his role as a guardian of God's throne.
Can not a cherub enter the cognitive control of any creature and possess it's mind? Humans experience demon possession. The cherubs enter the mind taking over the human soul.
Flying serpents experience demon possession. The cherub also entered the animal and possessed it's mind. Sure God punished the serpent, and also will in judgement punish the cherub that sinned.
A beast, like a mountain, is a Bible poetry symbol of a power against God. Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The chief cherub devil has messenger cherub who carry evil influence to every human, to deceive and cause humans to sin. A prosecutor does not force you to sin and than prosecute you for that sinning. But a power who hates God will force you to sin and get angry over your sins, if God tries to save you from sinning. One day in judgement we the humans will judge the cherubs who sinned, and vindicate God as truth.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? We are humans judging cherubims? Because they sinned and tricked us humans to sin.
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Greetings Dave
D"Thank for this – it is not a mystery nor is it complicated – it is spelled out plainly R" Yes we can focus on the snake or focus on the cherub who possesses the snake. Your choice.
How many symbols where raised on the pole for the human to look upon and be saved from snake poison?
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
The word "firey serpent" is wrong, the Hebrew here is "saraph" meaning a "burning". Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
The burning ones are cherubs, who protect and help God around His throne. They are angels of fire.
Isa 30:6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent,
The beast of the south is also a burning creature, a viper, and a serpent. Daniel 11 speaks of the king of the south and the king of the north, two kings at war. Both were depicted upon the pole. Only one king saved you from the pole.
D"The doctrine teaches – that even angels can fall from God’s Grace R" Than ask the Jewish question? Can angels sin? Can the cherub sin? Would God really create closest to is throne cherubims who are robots of praise? How is this a love response?
Dave says" Rev 12:7 No cherubims there Robert – he is making it up R" Some Jews disagree with you Dave. Moses Mainmanedes, the cherubs represent angels: This is a fact you cannot deny, written 800 AD. Rabbi Apple says one cherub sinned and lost his role as a guardian of God's throne.
If you wish to argue against Scripture and against these two Jews, that is you decision.
D"Dose not say the King of Tyre is an angel/messenger – it says he is the guardian of his kingdom R" Correct, a human can never be a cherub.
However both humans and cherubs can be guardians, as a function.
D"It is just obvious that Robert does not study scripture R" How many humans of the Bible read Greek and hebrew? And even Jeff Benner, Ancient Hebrew?
In the SDA world, hardly any, they read English translations... come one Dave.... get real
We study deeply, most readers here would not follow... stop mocking and start researching...
D"How can there be a promise for the salvation of the soul – if man has no soul – R" Who says man has no soul? Dave does
The torah says man has a soul (nephesh). Why do you write stuff Dave, that is opposite to me?
Man has a spirit too, (nashamah), the breathing of the soul, that comes to being only when the HS is empowering the soul as living. Our spirit develops in us the character and qualities of God. But Dave goes further and wants the nashamah to be also the ruwach, and say our spirit is eternal and immortal?
The answer to that is no. There are two Hebrew words in the phrase "breath of life" and both terms are separate and distinct.
D there is absolute no way I consider this SDA crap anywhere close to teaching Christianity / Messianic Judaism / Gnostic Christianity – Robert and the SDA have an entirely different religion with multiple gods and a denial of spiritual salvation – that all revolves around their satan god belief R" The only difference between us from a fundamental idea of ONE premise is this Dave.
I have a basic origin of SIN. Scripture does not explain why one cherub choose to SIN, but did.
You do not have an origin of SIN. Only that GOD wanted bad things to test human free will. Shalom
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