The First Age and the Contest

[Dave]

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne.
Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God so they might take care of her for 1,260 days.

Who, what, when
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, - who is this
A review of Commentary all point to – Jesus Christ the Son of God

So – when did this passage take place – Gen 1:1-3 – the First Age
John 1:1-3 = Gen 1:1 – The Son of God – by God – through the female Spirit (God – Spirit –Son)

Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth.
Gen 1:1 God fattened Himself - expanded – into invisible and visible creation

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
The First Archon – the Beast/Dragon – and his hierarchy of leadership ( offspring)

Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.

The First Archon and his offspring were hidden away from the rest of heavens – into darkness
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water.

Jer 4:19 My stomach, my stomach! I writhe in anguish! The pain of my heart! My heart is pounding within me! I cannot keep silent because I have heard, O my soul, the sound of the shofar, the battle-cry of war.
Jer 4:20 Disaster on disaster is reported. So the whole land is ruined. My tents are suddenly ravaged, my curtains in an instant.
Jer 4:21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the shofar?
Jer 4:22 “For My people are foolish. They do not know Me. They are senseless children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they do not know.”
Jer 4:23 I looked at the earth and behold, it was deserted and desolate, and at the heavens and they had no light.

Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Jer 4:27 For thus says Adonai, “The whole land will be wasteland, yet I will not totally destroy it.
Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.

Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light.
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child,
Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Anointed One, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters—the one who accuses them before our God day and night—has been thrown out.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives even in the face of death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you with great rage, knowing that his time is short.

Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he stalked the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of the great eagle, so that she might fly away from the presence of the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is taken care of—for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God so they might take care of her for 1,260 days.

The stage is set for creation to unfold – as designed – after God’s Will – God’s plan

The Second Age

Rev 12:15 And from out of his mouth, the serpent spewed water like a river after the woman, in order to sweep her away with a flood.
YESTER RA – wealth, power, and fame attractive to all self-preservation instinctively driven alphas
Gen 3 – the wages of sin = mortal death – dust returns to dust

Rev 12:16 But the earth came to the aid of the woman. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth.
Surprise – mortal death is not the end

Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1st Book of Adam and Eve
3:1GOD said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen.
3:2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled."
3:3 But when Adam heard these words from God, and of the great five days and a half, he did not understand the meaning of them.
3:4 For Adam was thinking that there would be but five days and a half for him, to the end of the world.
3:5 And Adam wept, and prayed God to explain it to him.
3:6 Then God in His mercy for Adam who was made after His own image and similitude, explained to him, that these were 5,000 and 500 years; and how One would then come and save him and his seed.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring—those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua.

Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him.

Rev 12:18 And he stood on the shore of the sea.
And the Contest unfolds

[Dave]

Mar 10, 2021 14:09:44 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Mt 19:8 - Mr 1:1
Here the term refers to the first time something happens,
Mr 13:8
Here the term refers to the first time something happens,
So the term arche does not mean before Gen 1:1, can be any time before or after time begins, it really means "the first time something happens in time".

1- I have never said archie means before Gen 1:1 – you said this
2- Correct – archie means the first time something happens - agree

SO we cannot use the term archie as a term for when in time things happened. Hmm?
Satan is a verb – it means to accuse – you think of it as a person named satan the God of Evil

Again – for the 10 millionth time
The authors of the agl used the term archon to describe the (dad-guy) angelic beings
I have said more than once – it is a colloquial term to simplify
Why – because the Beast is the First archon

Paul and Luke called them archon in the agl
Paul called them archon outside of the agl
John, James, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all called them archon in the Nag Hammadi
But – you MUST DENY SCRIPTURE for your view to be correct

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (archon), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities (archon), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Eph 3:10 (KJV) To the intent that now unto the principalities (archon) and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph 1:21 Far above all principality (archon), and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality (archon) and power:

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities (archon) and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities (archon), nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates (archon), and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

Luk 20:20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power (archon) and authority of the governor

The archon is an agl term – straight out of the NT – used by Paul and Luke within the agl
I offered to call them all Principalities if it would help you - you didn't reply

WHY does the SDA deny the enemy we struggle against
You say the PRINCIPALITIES spoke of in the agl are a Gnostic myth
How very well the evil forces have hidden themselves within your doctrine
100% Catholica – deny the actual struggle and focus upon a god of Evil
Anything to miss – or missunderstand

Try another precept upon precept theme
Mt 4:1 ¶
Cross references to
Eze 8:3 .. the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
Is the image of jealousy, a simile of diabolos?
1- what happened to your satan – why change your vocabulary now – flip flop
2- Who is this – Bible expert – it is Tammuz – born on Dec 25th, whose mother Isthar came to earth on EASTER Sunday and changed a bird into an egg laying rabbit

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
1- what happened to your satan – why change your vocabulary now – flip flop
2- this is referring to the Left Hand of God – you dismissed this as a Jewish myth
Now you invoke it as validation – flip flop

Cross references to
Ps 6:8 ¶ Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.
Is aven a simile of diabolos?

H205 – אָוֶן - 'âven - From an unused root perhaps meaning properly to pant (hence to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); (SELF) – which causes - strictly nothingness; also trouble, vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol: - affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners (-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain, vanity, wicked (-ness.)

vanity, vain, vanity, = SELF

Is aven a simile of diabolos?
1- what happened to your satan – why change your vocabulary now – flip flop
2- aven is an example of SELF

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>.

When did the shedim begin sinning? You say from Gen 6? Hmm?
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee
After Gen 6

Cross references to
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Is satan a simile of diabolos?
Satan here is the prosecutor for the Lord – I am sure Joshua thought him a devil

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
THis is the strongest, best verse that links the terms satan and diabolos as one label.

The great dragon – that old serpent - is CALLED – referred to as – termed a satan – Correct
Peter was called a satan
Anyone can be your satan – BECAUSE SATAN = A VERB – A FDUNCTION
There is no such thing as a God of Evil named Satan – only within the Catholic Church

D" The first Archon was created in the First Age Gen 1:1 or 2 that resulted in the choshek
The First Archon had offspring = bane elohiym (last name archon)
Where are these bane elohiym archon – they are on/in earth as per Gen 1:2 + Rev 12:7
Gen 3 the light is introduced as the solution for the choshek

R" Hmm? nice solution to your Gnostic ideas.
But how does this fit "war in heaven" with angels banished to earth (Gen 1:2) It doesn't.
Therefore the angels who sinned occur before Gen 1:1.
WHAT – there was nothing before Gen 1:1 except God
All the host of heaven were created on Day 1

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Rev 12:7 happened in Gen 1:2 resulting in the choshek

R" I define sin as breaking law, missing God's laws of love.
Hence law existed when GOD existed.
R" Please add your torah source.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Yes Robert – there was sin – but it did not count – because no law was disobeyed
When a dinosaur ate his lunch – there was no law telling that animal it was error
When Eve desired the fruit – there was no law against it
When Eve lied to the serpent – there was no law against it
But when she took a bite- she disobeyed a law
D" First recorded sin was Eve

Deceive = sin
So the spirt acting as a deceiving spirit agains Ahab for the Lord was sinning
It is a sin to perform a service for God at God’s request 1 Kings 22
And of course your satan was sinning for performing a service for the Lord in Job
And when God sent evil spirits upon Saul – those spirits were sinning

war = sin
And your God forced Israel to Ssin over and over in the ahl

D" There is no need for a God of evil to be responsible for cold, disease, hunger, greed, and covetness
Yester ra of biology takes care of all of it
R" and all this ra biology was programmed by GOD? SO God is the Author of sin too?
Only if you consider hunger and disease a sin – do you – Oh yes – everything is a sin with your floating definition

Why is hunger a sin?

D" If you think Caesar is a god – then bow to him – go for it
Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being
If you think your satan deserves your praise – continue on
Personally – I think he is just a created being – and your delusional for praising him

R" so when the army of the USA comes to impose vaccines for the so called COV19 viruses that do not exist, you will roll up your arm and take the terms of a delusional created being who rules over you, dictating terms of authority, delusional terms of authority?

If I do – or I don’t – how does it affect my choice to accept Jesus Christ as my savior?
It is not about the WORLD and biology

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

All Romans hailed Caesar as a delusional strong authority... yep, but does not make it a elohiym power opposing GOD, the elohiym power in heaven.
And all Catholics hail satan as the god of evil – as you do - yep, but does not make it a elohiym power opposing GOD, the elohiym power in heaven.My Point exactly

[Dave]

Mar 10, 2021 14:09:44 GMT -5 @robertt said:

YES – ROBERT – I believe in the spirit – because I have experience it and been exposed to it
You will never ever cause me to doubt it real
R" so this experience proves what exactly? What did you actually see or feel?

I have given you my witness more than once
I have posted many links to other testimonies
There are many examples within the ahl and agl
YET – you deny

SO are these archons spirit bodies or flesh bodies like humans?
1- The First Archon – we are told he was made with some matter
In Gen 1:1 or 2 this would have been the stuff of creation (earth) – space – the cosmos
2- man was made from the dust of the ground
This would have been earth of Gen 1:9 – dirt – biology we know and recognize
3- evidently this was close enough for procreation with women in Gen 6
4- do they look human? – King Solomon said no = they are ugly creatures – birth defects
5- Enoch – and John and James from the Nag Hammadi say – at first mortal women rejected them – so they had to change their form (appearance) to father the nephilim

Can you kill an archon like killing a man?
YES! – in 3D form they are vulnerable
1- Gnostic literature says – this is why they remain hidden – and appear rarely for effect
2- Islam has a lot on killing the Jinn – or trapping them while in 3D form
A genie is an archon/Jinn trapped within a bottle

Do archons eat food like humans need to?
The Lord and the angels of the Lord – ate with Abraham

Psa 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Psa 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
Every story of ancient gods – regardless ifg they came from space or not
Man built them houses and brought them food to eat
Enoch tells us that the Nephilim ate so much that man could not keep them fed – so the Nephilim started eating men

If Yalboath FATHERED his what do you call more Yalboath offspring?
Yalboath is just one of many names applied to the First Archon

The Apocryphon of John - The Nag Hammadi Library
And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living.

… "This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself. The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper. The second one is Harmas, who is the eye of envy. – (etc etc)

POINT #1 – the creation of the choshek of Gen 1:2
POINT #2 – the First Archon reproduced – asexually – no female involved – like a simple creature(mitosis) that produce daughter cells
POINT#3 – the Archon moved away – they were hidden away – Rev 12:7 = NO WAR
Just as Rev 20:20 = no war – just cast into the Lake of Fire

The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.

And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.

This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent.

POINT#1 - Where is Mrs Yalboath? – this passage says androgynous - asexually – no female involved
POINT#2 – creation of the Gen 1:2 choshek

If Yalboath FATHERED his what do you call more Yalboath offspring?
agl authors call them powers and principalities (archon)
ahl calls them bane elohiym and shedim

Your own arguments spoils the bane elohiym being men
Because you insist the is no such thing as man in heaven – only the grave until later you say
Yet in Job – there they are standing before the Lord in heaven with your satan

If the bane elohiym are the offspring of the First Archon – their last name = archon from the family archon
Americans are born to Americans
Australians are born to Australians
Archon are born from the First archon

This seems so confusing to you – because you want it to

And these offspring sexually caused offspring with woman, termed archons.
And these (bane elohiym archon) caused offspring with woman, termed (Nephilim – demi-archon gods)

I think you call Yalboath a chief archon, yet his offspring is also called archons?
You seem to lack labels for the various kinds of creatures made?
The First Archon and his offspring (bane elohiym) began in heaven
Then cast into physical creation Gen 1:2 – Hidden away in the cloud of smoke and fire = choshek

I thought creatures can only mate after their kind, so explain why your sexual thing doesn't violate torah?
Again – what is the sin against man andnature that Jude and Peter speak of =
I say – disobeying this Royal Law
As a result – they were cast into chains to await release to be used again to torment man in Rev 9 and Rev 20

They did not sin in heaven and were cast out
They were cast out because they only thought of self – therefore they belong in physical creation the land of self
They were already on earth for a long time before Gen 6
In Gen 6 – they fathered the Nephilim – their sin – in this WORLD of physical biology
PROVING – in mortal form – yester ra self-causes the creature to sin

D" When these remaining archon/Nephilim died – their spirits remain on earth as the evil spirits we encounter
R" I see.
So killing archons would only make the biology part die, the spirit body would still live and frighten you much like ghosts do?
CORRECT ROBERT – life lives only biology dies until the second death at the lake of fire
I hate this Catholic word Ghost – but in this case you use it correctly
Ghost = the spirit of something that was once alive as an animal (biology)
The Catholic term Holy Ghost is offensive – the Holy Ghost never died in the past
Ghost also conjures up – demonic figures out of our cultural heritage that we cannot unsee
Evil spirit are Ghost
But the Ghost (spirit) of man returns to the heavens – to God
There is no such thing as the Ghost of my ancestor haunting me
Each and every time – it is always an evil spirit (archon) deceiving you to believe in Ghost
Because Ghost are spirits trapped to earth
They are Nephilim that have died here – and their spirits remain here
Man spirit goes to God – or to the grave to await Resurrection

I am in my car – and do not have access to the approximate verse that tells us this

[Deleted]

Let's do a precept upon precept study of G746=H7225

G746 equivalent of H7225 , according to Jeff Benner

Here are all the verses in OT that do do get translated as "beginning". There are 49 verses in the OT that also use arche=re'shiyth, and 18 verses translate as "beginning"

Here are all the others that do not:

1 Ex 23:19 The first "re'shiyth" of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

The beginnings of animals producing, or plants producing is "termed firstfruits" in Hebrew.

2 Ex 34:26 The first of the firstfruits "re'shiyth" of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Same idea,

3 Le 2:12 As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savour. {be burnt: Heb. ascend}

Same idea, the beginnings of animal's producing,

4 Le 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: {sheaf: or, handful: Heb. omer}

Same idea, the beginnings of plant's producing,

5 Nu 15:20 Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough [for] an heave offering: as [ye do] the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it.

6 Nu 15:21 Of the first of your dough ye shall give unto the LORD an heave offering in your generations.

7 Nu 18:12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee. {best: Heb. fat}

8 Nu 24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek [was] the first "beginning" of the nations; but his latter end [shall be] that he perish for ever. {the nations: the nations that warred against Israel} {that...: or, even to destruction}

The idea that the beginning of something is the "first" of something. An idiom

9 De 18:4 The firstfruit [also] of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.

10 De 26:2 That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put [it] in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there.

11 De 26:10 And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

12 De 33:21 And he provided the first "beginnings" part for himself, because there, [in] a portion of the lawgiver, [was he] seated; and he came with the heads of the people, he executed the justice of the LORD, and his judgments with Israel. {seated: Heb. cieled}

Notice in this verse about judgements and magistrates, the term is only used to mean "beginnings" or "first"

13 1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded [in my] habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest "beginnings" of all the offerings of Israel my people?

Here is another idiom arising from beginnings, the first fruits, were seen as the best of the producings, the first.

14 1Sa 15:21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.

15 2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all [things] brought they in abundantly. {came...: Heb. brake forth} {honey: or, dates}

16 Ne 10:37 And [that] we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

17 Ne 12:44 ¶ And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited. {of the law: that is, appointed by the law} {for Judah...: Heb. for the joy of Judah} {waited: Heb. stood}

18 Job 40:19 He [is] the chief "beginning" of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach [unto him].

Some creature was the "beginning" or "first" or "best" or God's creation? Called in Hebrew the "b@hemowth". The great creature God created.

19 Ps 78:51 And smote all the firstborn "beginings" in Egypt; the chief of [their] strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

Again the idea of the "first" the "firstfruits" the "best" of human producings.

20 Ps 105:36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength.

21 Pr 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

22 Pr 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing "beginning" ; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Here is another idiom that wisdom should be our first beginning, or first desire, our best endeavour

23 Jer 2:3 Israel [was] holiness unto the LORD, [and] the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

24 Jer 49:35 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.

25 Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things. {firstfruits: or, chief}

26 Eze 44:30 And the first of all the firstfruits of all [things], and every oblation of all, of every [sort] of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house. {And the first: or, And the chief}

27 Eze 48:14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for [it is] holy unto the LORD.

28 Da 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief "begininning" of the children of Ammon. {glorious...: or, goodly, etc.: Heb. land of delight, or, ornament}

The idea of the first or best or greatest of the tribes that oppose...

29 Ho 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time "beginning": [but] they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto [that] shame; and [their] abominations were according as they loved.

The idea to visit plant producings at their beginnings of their producings.

30 Am 6:1 ¶ Woe to them [that are] at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, [which are] named chief "beginning" of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came! {are at...: or, are secure} {chief: or, firstfruits}
Idea of the first, best or beginning of nations who opposed God

31 Am 6:6 That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. {wine...: or, in bowls of wine} {affliction: Heb. breach}

Now in all the OT verses there is not a single case of some "archon creature" or even the hint of such "creatures" from God's creation.

There are 56 NT verses that use arche, and the KJV translate all these as "beginning" except these 19 verses below, which Dave also uses 9 of these verses to suggest the "archons" are a new creatured species, apart from the meaning "beginning". Thus if you are correct this word has polysemy.


Lu 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and [unto] magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 De 33:21 There is no clue as to how this relates to another creature? The first beginnings of judges and matters of court relate to the Levites and their meetings.

"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, the beginnings of powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:"

I would say this term is referring to the beginnings in Lev where GOD set up Levi to function as judges and for matters of dispute, ie in the beginnings of the Exodus.

Lu 20:20 ¶ And they watched [him], and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power "beginings" and authority of the governor.

Same idea as above.

Ac 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners "beginnings" , and let down to the earth:

There is no hint in the OT using this term to mean the "beginnings of weaving cloth"

Ac 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

Ac 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities "beginnings" , nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Not sure of the idiom here could Paul be referring in this list of things which we as Christians should avoid,
He lists certain enemies to the Christian, in a contrasting array

1) death or life
2) angels or beginnings
3) powers present or powers future

I get the impression for the contrasting powers, the angels refer to good angels and bad angels which left their beginnings?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their "beginnings", but left their own habitation,



Eph 1:21 Far above all "beginnings" principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Another list by Paul, listing all powers under Christ, Jesus is above all His enemies

Jesus is the Creator of all things, so is naturally greater than ALL Beginnings.

Greater than the beginnings of all created creatures. Thus this cannot be used to reference as you claim a specific creature Fathered asexually by Yalboath, termed archons.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Referring to the powers of Creation through Jesus, who created all things from the beginning. (Does not refer to specific creature called Yalboath, who Fathered asexually many archons, who created more archons using the human woman from Genesis 6. )

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against "beginnings" principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. {flesh...: Gr. blood and flesh} {spiritual...: or, wicked spirits} {high: or, heavenly}

This verse does reference powers of darkness specifically. Who might these "rulers of darkness" be?

The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7225 , according to Jeff Benner" cannot tell you nothing else that the word means "beginnings" . From all the OT verses and NT verses, the word is used to refer to "something happening first in time" and does not refer to some NAMED creature, who was created first in time.

Jude suggest who these creatures from the beginnings who are rulers of darkness? Why do you Dave, dismiss Jude's torah?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Very plain as to whom the beginnings of darkness refer to, angels.



Now this was a long reply, but you speak so many different themes, it's hard to reply to them all.

I find no OT or NT text where the term arch/reshith refers to anything else but generally the first something happens in time,

Is not a term to reference specifically created creatures such as archons, how convenient we use the same spellings as arche, almost sounds like a NAME.

You keep making new threads in your website, which is fine, as your are the admin leader.

But you have yet to convince anybody that this Hebrew term means anything less than "beginnings".

Shalom my friend.

PS Lucky you to enjoy the skiing in the snow. We get rain here, like 167 mm in one day. A flooded local creek, with later on more midge insect mozzies and humidity. Reckon it was HARRP induced storm cell.

[Dave]

Let's do a precept upon precept study of G746=H7225
G746 equivalent of H7225 , according to Jeff Benner
Again the idea of the "first" the "firstfruits" the "best" of human producings.
Here is another idiom that wisdom should be our first beginning, or first desire, our best endeavour
The idea of the first or best or greatest of the tribes that oppose...
The idea to visit plant producings at their beginnings of their producings.
Idea of the first, best or beginning of nations who opposed God

Now in all the OT verses there is not a single case of some "archon creature" or even the hint of such "creatures" from God's creation.
Again – let me say – your word search study method fails you over and over
Then you speak in absolutes – that are just not correct
You should stop being so defensive and desperate to defend the SDA doctrine – and just study the scripture

H7700 – שֵׁד - shêd – shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil.

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, a non-god, gods they had not known—to new ones who came in lately, ones your fathers had not dreaded.

Psa 106:37 They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.

I find no OT or NT text where the term arch/reshith refers to anything else but generally the first something happens in time,
Is not a term to reference specifically created creatures such as archons, how convenient we use the same spellings as arche, almost sounds like a NAME.

It is reference to the FIRST
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
The First Archon – the Beast of Revelation

Dave also uses 9 of these verses to suggest the "archons" are a new creatured species, apart from the meaning "beginning". Thus if you are correct this word has polysemy.

Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities "beginnings" , nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Not sure of the idiom here could Paul be referring in this list of things which we as Christians should avoid,
He lists certain enemies to the Christian, in a contrasting array
I get the impression for the contrasting powers, the angels refer to good angels and bad angels which left their beginnings?

1- there is no such thig as a good angels that change its form into a being of matter
2- bad angels are called powers and archon in the NT by Paul and Luke or shedim in the OT by Moses, David, and King Solomon
You seems to lack labels

Eph 1:21 Far above all "beginnings" principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Another list by Paul, listing all powers under Christ, Jesus is above all His enemies
Another list of the enemies against man as Powers and archon
And YES – they are no equivalent to God in any way – no war – no controversy – God is absolute

Jesus is the Creator of all things, so is naturally greater than ALL Beginnings.
YES! There is only one Creator – God – who is Christ in-crarnate Jesus Christ
And the Powers and Principalities (archon) were created by God – but the Torah says by the Left hand
At one time you claimed the left hand idea was a Jewish myth – crazy Gnostic ideas
But the you invoke it later to defend your satan (Mat 25:41)

Thus this cannot be used to reference as you claim a specific creature Fathered asexually by Yalboath, termed archons.

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.

These are specific creatures of the great fiery red dragon – the beast of revelations
That came with – 7 Generals to reign over 10 dimensions = physical creation
Occurring at Gen 1:2 – during the First Age

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against "beginnings" principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. {flesh...: Gr. blood and flesh} {spiritual...: or, wicked spirits} {high: or, heavenly}

This verse does reference powers of darkness specifically. Who might these "rulers of darkness" be?

The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7225 , = chosen confusion – a chosen twist to misrepresent
The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7700 = shêd – shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil.

Who might these "rulers of darkness" be?
Shedim – the offspring of Beelzebub – OT
Or Archon – offspring of the First Archon – the beast oF Revelations - NT

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude suggest who these creatures from the beginnings who are rulers of darkness? Why do you Dave, dismiss Jude's torah?
Very plain as to whom the beginnings of darkness refer to, angels.
Jude and 2 Peter are referring to the bane elohiym (shedim / archon) of Gen 6
YES – these angelic being (from heaven origionally) sinned against man and nature in this 3D physical WORLD

you have yet to convince anybody that this Hebrew term means anything less than "beginnings".

Mar 11, 2021 12:12:24 GMT -5 Dave said:

The archon is an agl term – straight out of the NT – used by Paul and Luke within the agl
I offered to call them all Principalities if it would help you - you didn't reply

WHY does the SDA deny the enemy we struggle against
You say the PRINCIPALITIES spoke of in the agl are a Gnostic myth
How very well the evil forces have hidden themselves within your doctrine
100% Catholica – deny the actual struggle and focus upon a god of Evil
Anything to miss – or misunderstand

PS Lucky you to enjoy the skiing in the snow. We get rain here, like 167 mm in one day. A flooded local creek, with later on more midge insect mozzies and humidity. Reckon it was HARRP induced storm cell.

Spent my 65th Birthday doing my favorite thing with my favorite people

[Deleted]

D"1- there is no such thig as a good angels that change its form into a being of matter
2- bad angels are called powers and archon in the NT by Paul and Luke or shedim in the OT by Moses, David, and King Solomon
You seems to lack labels


R" Why are you calling the archons angels Dave? Are you agreeing with me?

I agree angels do not change form, they just begin sinning, its the reason for the war in heaven.

R"The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7225 , = chosen confusion – a chosen twist to misrepresent
D" The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7700 = shêd – shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil.


Rob is alarmed" Your kidding me right?

How can you say "G746 equivalent of H7700 " Are you also against Jeff Benner?

What about the cross references Dave?

Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning "arche" made them male and female,

How can "arche" here in this verse mean "shedim", a "Devil"?

Most of the verses using G746 are translated as "beginning" not Devil. Come on please.


D"I offered to call them all Principalities if it would help you - you didn't reply


Paul and Luke do not use this term , they use the term "re'shiyth" not "arche", and they are referring to the beginnings, the first fruits, the best or first ones. If long before man even existed, before Creation 1:1 even took place, some angels sinned in the beginning.

But you do not even have angels created long before Creation. You have angels created during Earth Creation don't you?

How many times has GOD created other worlds, apart from earth? Have you considered this? And other universes to go with them? You seem to make man the only creature ever to have free will of choice? And for some dumb reason God intentionally creates self creatures to undo the free will, or test/tempt the free will of choice?? This testing is never necessary. 

All of these intelligent creatures have free will to love GOD, and never once did any creature decide to sin. Only after billions of years did one commanding angel decide to sin, because he was jealous of the Son of GOD, who functions as a child, that seemed less than the angel, who wanted the secret meetings with the Most High, but was told only my Son and I discuss creating things, you are a creature O bright star, not a Creator. So the creature rose in pride and sinned. Long before Earth Creation had began.

But you design the Son of God into a Father expression, hence there can be no reason for jealousy over the expression of a Son can there? And no reason why the Most High would not have meetings with angels over creation? Why your Gnostic writings even have angels helping the Most High in creation.... !!!

NO wonder you cannot have angels sinning, no hint of why they would sin int he first place, no relational GOD, so no model for sin in the first place. No wonder you can't see my view. You just have sin as disobeying a single Most High authority. But no relational elohiym power. 

SO the bright star and the Most High power, must have talk together often and even helped in creation often, no wonder the Gnostic writings confuse you. 

Explain why a divine elohiym power would ask a creature to help with providing creative powers? Suppose an nuclear engineer is building a powerful motor of cold fusion, a power unheard of today? Would such a mind consult the local maid who cleans the floors of his office for help in such precision and engineering? Do any humans understand even the engineering genetic code of the DNA? No, not even close? Imagine two or three programs all using the same 4 letters, but over laid on top of the same code are two or three programs all describing functions that are different? There is no such program in our world like this? C and C++ do not run over each other, Phython and PHP cannot exist using the same binary codes, but GOD engineered the DNA to run several codes into the same 4 basic letters. Science seems to think the DNA has trillion and trillions of codes built into it, not the 23,000 genes for protein bases we once thought. More complex than ever. 

The high angel got jealous over the Most High and His Son discussing Creative matters,, only when you introduce a relational elohiym power, can you begin to fathom how sinning emerged.... not your single solitary Most High as you claim.

-------


D"Spent my 65th Birthday doing my favorite thing with my favorite people
How blessed are you. Enjoy your day, and enjoy the cold wet weather.
Shalom my friend

[Dave]

R"The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7225 , = chosen confusion – a chosen twist to misrepresent
D" The Hebrew term "G746 equivalent of H7700 = shêd – shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil.
Rob is alarmed" Your kidding me right?
How can you say "G746 equivalent of H7700 " Are you also against Jeff Benner?

Dave is alarmed at your complete lack of understanding of language

learningenglish.voanews.com/a/everyday-grammar-adventures-with-adverbials-part-2/3521224.html#:~:text=Nouns%20and%20noun%20phrases%20can,place%2C%20quantity%2C%20or%20manner.
Learning English 101 - EVERYDAY GRAMMAR - Adventures with Adverbials: Part Two
Nouns and noun phrases can act as adverbials – that is, they can modify or add information to a verb. When noun phrases act in such a role, they describe time, place, quantity, or manner

He is the First
He is the First in line
The First Archon was the First

And it can be used as a adverb to quantify time – place – or manner
In the beginning – God (subject) created (verb) – (the direct objects) heavens and earth
Archie in this sentence = a noun as the direct object of the preposition IN
In the First = and adverbial phrase used to modify the verb BARA

G746 - ἀρχή - archē feminine noun (from the left hand)
(properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):
Etymology -Root Word From ἄρχομαι (G756)
G756 - ἄρχομαι – archomai - Middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence); to commence (in order of time)
G757 - ἄρχω - archō - A primary verb; to be first (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over.

G746 - ἀρχή - archē feminine noun - (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):
Greek Inflections of ἀρχή
55x in 9 unique form(s) (TR mGNT)
58x in 11 unique form(s) (LXX)
169x in 10 unique form(s)
ἀρχαὶ — 7x
ἀρχαῗς — 1x
ἀρχὰς — 13x
ἀρχάς — 5x
ἀρχὴ — 38x
ἀρχή — 1x
ἀρχῇ — 24x
ἀρχὴν — 17x
ἀρχήν — 8x
ἀρχῆς — 55x
TDNT Reference: 1:479,81

KJV Translation Count — Total: 58x
The KJV translates Strong's G746 in the following manner: beginning (40x), principality (8x), corner (2x), first (2x), miscellaneous (6x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
beginning, origin
the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons

Polysemy? – or one is a verb – one is a female noun – one is an adverb – one is a participle – and some are used in adverbial phrases

Your method cannot tell the difference
You completely disregard grammar in English as well is the Greek

Learn to translate so you can speak to facts
It makes the conversation more interesting for the reciever
Looks like H7225 is better equated with G756 - ἄρχομαι – archomai - Middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence); to commence (in order of time)

Paul and Luke do not use this term , they use the term "re'shiyth" not "arche",
Eph 6:12 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἡμῖν ἡ πάλη πρὸς αἷμα καὶ σάρκα, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὰς ἀρχάς, πρὸς τὰς ἐξουσίας, πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου, πρὸς τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας ἐν τοῖς

Sorry Robert – the NT was written in Greek – and it says τὰς ἀρχάς
Your missapplied Word Games – just interfere with understanding the whole

[Deleted]

OH I see, just because the unlearned child has no learning, I cannot speak of any wisdom to the scholar who knows grammar more than me?

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

The Hebrew scriptures are sealed. The Greek is a translation of the Hebrew.

Unless GOD helps you, scholarship does not help you.

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Oh so I am unlearned, I cannot help you.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

You my friend are bogged down in the traditions of man, their grammar rules of reading Scripture this way or that way.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,

But instead is this wonder, from GOD promised....

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

The deaf hear, the blind see, the letters and messages from the torah.

It's a promise. Does not require scholarship, only GOD promises this to you, if you seek him meekly

Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,

But not the proud.

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding,

I pray those who erred shall come to understanding.

SHalom

[Dave]

OH I see, just because the unlearned child has no learning, I cannot speak of any wisdom to the scholar who knows grammar more than me?
Fact – you do not translate
Fact – when you play your word games you do not consider grammar at all – in English, Greek, or Hebrew
Fact – when you look at a verb – you make absolutely no effort to determine it tense, its voice, its mood, or person
Fact – you speak in absolutes that have no bases in scripture
Fact – you do not look at the Torah as a whole – you verse shop that supports your doctrine

Fact – I have been translating Greek since 1972
I am not an expert – but I can translate – and I understand its process

Fact – your Robert word game method has let you down over and over
You method cannot even demonstrate to me one verse where your satan hates God
49 + 23 times I demonstrated your error –
your answer – You still have Rev 12:7 war and cherub chata

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
The Hebrew scriptures are sealed. The Greek is a translation of the Hebrew.
Correct the (LXX) is a Greek translation of the Tanak by 70 of the most respected Jewish Rabbi of their day – at least two Rabbi from every tribe

As for the agl –
1- The Gospel of Mathew was written to the Jews – I was probably written in Hebrew, but no copies survive
2- You would think Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews to the Hebrews in Hebrew – but there is great doubt
The Book of Hebrews has more than one author – and most scholars doubt Paul had anything to do with it – and the prose of the book support a Greek source
3- The Gospel of Mark – John Mark the scribe of Peter – John Mark the very First Pope of the Coptic Church in Alexandria Egypt – has at least 4 different authors
If it was written in the Levant – it was Greek
If it was written in Egypt – it was Coptic (Egyptian Greek)
As for the rest – John, Luke, Peter, Paul, Jude – Acts (by Luke) = all Greek in origin

Unless GOD helps you, scholarship does not help you.
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Oh so I am unlearned, I cannot help you.
If you would just become a student of the scriptures – I am sure you could teach a lot
But for now – you are a disciple of your doctrine – to defend your doctrine – you speak in circles – refuse to define words – and the scripture that doesn’t fit you view, you just claim hard and passover

You cannot help me to become an SDA supported in any way
If that is your only objective – then you cannot help me

If you choose to study scripture at a college level – you must leave your kindergarten concepts behind

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

You my friend are bogged down in the traditions of man, their grammar rules of reading Scripture this way or that way.
Excuse me – SDA doctrine that supplant scripture = a man made precept

It's a promise. Does not require scholarship, only GOD promises this to you, if you seek him meekly
Seek who – all you can speak about
Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,
But not the proud.

Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
Yet you say you could never thank God for satan in your life
You say – as you look out your window – you cannot even see your God – all you can see is the effects of satan
You say – you God is Love only – You God can do no harm your God is forbidden from killing the unrighteous – it is impossible for your God you have righteous Judgment because your God must obey the Laws written for man

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding,
How can you post this verse – you cannot possible understand what it means
There is no spirit – it is a sin to believe in spirit
Yet – you post verses like this
Either flip flopping is just you way – whenever back into a corner – just flip flop
Or – you are confused as to what you believe

[Deleted]

Maybe you are right Dave.

I will not reply to your posts here.

From our long discussions, I hope you continue in the faith and we can see each other in heaven, otherwise I will look out for you, as you will for me, either way, at the end of all things, there are only friends we tried to take to heaven for GOD.... got nothing to do with certain doctrines of any church... what is a church anyhow? A gathering of people.... you and I are people...we talk and discuss, and we disagree, nothing wrong with that? As long as we read the torah with an honest heart.

SHalom