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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 3:50:32 GMT -5
D" I know – your feel good God cannot do Isa 45:7 – that scripture must be denied That had to be a second creator – that other god of yours – that god of evil Who single handedly changed (recreated) all of God’s tov creation
R"Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth? 25 ¶ Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; 26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; All the things here are RA in nature yet are designed by GOD, I am puzzled as to why you think some evil god created these things of ra, when it clearly says GOD did. Satan is no creator, only a spoiler, never creates anything beautiful, And snow, light dividing, lightning and thunder are all things of RA, which were wrought into our world, after SIN came in, bring in these things with it.... Nothing to do with some second creator... why do you insist it was? It says in Scripture GOD creates RA, so that SIN can be observed. Have you considered Dave, if GOD is perfect, SIN must be imperfect and therefore alien to GOD, not allowed to exist. So than how can SIN exist if GOD is perfect? But you have GOD creating imperfect things on purpose. I don't get you, either GOD is perfect or God is NOT perfect? God cannot be both. So when creatures decide to SIN, GOD has to engineer things so SIN can be observed, otherwise SIN and the SINNER would immediately cease to exist. Hence Scripture says GOD engineers RA. But GOD cannot do RA or do SIN, because that would imply GOD is not perfect. D" Actually – the Jews do consider God to be androgynous – because He is beyond our comprehensionR" Why than does GOD use terms like Father and SOn is GOD is beyond our comprehension? D" Please give me your verse that says all creatures are male and female
www.bioexplorer.net/asexual-organisms.html/ R Hmm? not seen animals like these before. So God was clever to allow the female to make live eggs, should no male be around. Ge 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him The verse suggests the animals had helpmates, but Adam had none. D" Who altered all of God’s creation to suit himself You saisd that when you look through a telescope or a microscope you cannot see God’s creation Because it has all be recreated by satan into a sin form – all you can see is sin and the effects of sin Stop telling me that all you see and touch is satan’s handiwork – I’ll stop calling him the second creatorR" you put words in my mouth I didn't say. Who altered all of God’s creation to suit the sinner? GOD does. when you look through a telescope or a microscope you can see God’s creation despite God's curse on the biology, because of sin The biology may have been somewhat spoiled by Satan, but the biology design that lives in a fallen world was designed to live in the world that way, came from GOD's designing. I have never said all you see is Satan's handiwork. God is in control of our fallen world. D" Even all the animals changed their DNA and nature according to you Even volcanoes and earthquakes were created by your satan after Adam sinned
Your God cannot be responsible for our world - God made a perfect world But your satan singel handedly changed it allR" you speak of things I did not say Dave. Animals were designed to cope with a RA world as a result from SIN, this coping comes from GOD. Sure Satan may have spoiled some of the DNA....not sure of this idea, but possible. GOD is totally in control of our fallen world, even though sinners live in it. Sinners live in a fallen world only because GOD is gracious and kind. God hates their sinning, but loves the sinner. God wishes all to be saved from sin. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 23, 2021 14:23:27 GMT -5
D" I know – your feel good God cannot do Isa 45:7 – that scripture must be denied All the things here are RA in nature yet are designed by GOD, I am puzzled as to why you think some evil god created these things of ra, when it clearly says GOD did. Nothing to do with some second creator... why do you insist it was? It says in Scripture GOD creates RA, so that SIN can be observed. Seriously – you have never argued that your God made only tov- you have never argued that God could not make ra because God is love – and you argue that your God can do no ra Which God has reserved for His time – His Will – His Plan – agree 100%Have you considered Dave, if GOD is perfect, SIN must be imperfect and therefore alien to GOD, not allowed to exist. So than how can SIN exist if GOD is perfect? FIRST DEFINE YOUR TERMSIf I answer – youll say sin means something else Sin is the Free Will gift to chata God – miss God – no look for God – disobey God So than how can SIN exist if GOD is perfect? Because man uses his free will gift to chata But you have GOD creating imperfect things on purpose. Correct God created man on purposeI don't get you, either GOD is perfect or God is NOT perfect? God cannot be both. DEFINE YOUR TERMSGod created diphtheria, botchelism, malaria, and HIV God killed how many in the ahl? God will kill how many in the future? But GOD cannot do RA or do SIN, because that would imply GOD is not perfect.God created ra and does a whole lot of it in the past and the future Killing all life with a Flood is not a ra? _ How about commanding Israel to commit genocide Oh – Im sorry these parts of scripture make you unconfortable If sin = the choice to disobey God – How can God sinDEFINE YOUR TERMSD"Actually – the Jews do consider God to be androgynous – because He is beyond our comprehension R" Why than does GOD use terms like Father and SOn is GOD is beyond our comprehension? Already answered - it is called respect If you want to call the Father Creator an it - or a thing - or just a potential - you would not be incorrect If scripture said - make man in it's image - male and female - it would not be wrong E (it - a potential - unable to put in 3D physical terms) = male Christ and feamle Spirit that we can experience in our 3D form But - for male centric culture (which they have all been) it just seems disrespectful to call God "IT" It is more culturally acceptable to say - Father Technally it = an androgenyous thing that man can experience in our 3D world as image (Christ) or as Spirit But culturally it comes out as male + male + female - Father - Son - Womb/Mother medium/ether (your zeropoint energy matrix) Why is Christ the Son and not the Father because Christ is just the image of God - just the back of God - there is so much more to His reality www.bioexplorer.net/asexual-organisms.html/ R Hmm? not seen animals like these before. So God was clever to allow the female to make live eggs, should no male be around. Your still thing of eggs as in male and femaleYeast – fatten until they divide into two daughter cells (wiki) Amoeba is a unicellular organism, and just like bacteria, it reproduces through binary fission. After replicating its genetic material through mitotic division, the cell divides into two equal-sized daughter cells. In this method, two similar individuals are produced from a single parent cell. No male – no female – no egg – no ovum – 1 becomes 2 / 2 become 4 / 4 becomes 8 in a geometric progressionMicrobiology study of E. coli – 90%of your gut is inhabited by this bacteria Take some stool out and look at under a microscope – all you see = 90% bacteria and a few particles YES – a turd in your toilet = 90% bacteria by volume and weight Actually they digest some minerals that we then absorb Actually E. coli is also the natural source of Vitamin K Direct microscope stool examination .. The straigh line are bacil bacteria - the small dots are cocci bacteria - the refective shperes are yeast - and one is undergoing budding Micro mid-term = if one E. coli weights 1.3x10 to the -157 grams And it had all the food necessary to reproduce continually What would the weight of E. coli be in 24 hrs Answer – more than the weight of the earth FYI – do you remember phosphate laundry ditergents? Late 70s early 80s box powered soaps were outdoing one another in strength They were increasing the phosphate content But that excess laundry water found its way into small steams and pond making the bacteria there to grow like mad – causing stinky waterways and diseased fish Phosphates in soaps are regulated since ----------- D"Who altered all of God’s creation to suit himself You said that when you look through a telescope or a microscope you cannot see God’s creation Because it has all be recreated by satan into a sin form – all you can see is sin and the effects of sin Stop telling me that all you see and touch is satan’s handiwork – I’ll stop calling him the second creator R" you put words in my mouth I didn't say.Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. As man looks through a telescope – all he sees = God’s creation Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Correct – all of God’s beautiful creation is obvious to any true investigator = intelligent design = a designer – it is obvious Through the telescope or microscope – God’s creation all points to its creatorBut if you define GOD creating a perfectly Utopian world without RA, until after Adam sinned, than the curse of the world completely changes all the processes of order and chaos, so that nuclear decay is affected by the RA flooding into our world, so that nothing is certain or predictable from the past. Hmmmm you told me once that all you can see in the world is the effect of sinYou tell me that sin cause everything to change and evolved away from what God created Therefore Psa 19:2 and Rom 1:19-20 = proof of your satan to you – Not the Creator You insist God cannot make a flawed world because He is only tov But you say the world we live in is flawed – so who recreated the world?Changed all the world – every aspect of it – from bacteria to volcanoes D" Even all the animals changed their DNA and nature according to you Even volcanoes and earthquakes were created by your satan after Adam sinned Your God cannot be responsible for our world - God made a perfect worldBut your satan singel handedly changed it all Stop telling me that all you see and touch is satan’s handiwork – I’ll stop calling him the second creator R" you put words in my mouth I didn't say.Then stop saying themGOD is totally in control of our fallen world, even though sinners live in it.God is in control of the world that fell away from God and corrupted OK – I guess you will just keep saying it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2021 2:44:38 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You are a scientist of sorts, so understand the basic premise of some of your statements. D" God created diphtheria, botulism, malaria, and HIVMy understanding all creatures GOD created for Edenic Earth were all tov, functional. The bacteria were free swimming and living without causing diseases. Thus you are wrong with diphtheria, botulism, etc. After Adam sinned and GOD called forth the RA from Adam's sin as a curse to the ground, this references that all the Edenic Earth was cursed by Adam's sin. Everything went missing and began to wander from it's original functional path. Food dried up, so some bacteria found either do extinct or invade a host as a disease. So the bacteria went into survival modes, this does not require a second creator, some species had certain skills to survive different environments from the beginning before Adam's sin wrought a curse to Nature. Eg mozzies used to drink nectar, but the nectar lost nutrition so female mozzies seek blood instead. Again this requires no second creator, just a change to the sources of nutrition. malaria looks to me like some men before the flood may have genetically engineered a protozoan with a bacteria, possibly for some war advantage? I believe they were so smart back then. HIV is a modern example of modern man engineering a creature to be virulent. Dr leonard Horowitz videos detail this, but you all ready dislike his findings. If all creatures had some functional purpose, where did disease, and dysfunctional creatures come from? From the curse placed on them when Adam sinned. Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— Ro 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. You talk a lot of Ecoli, Dave, Nice Presentation en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_sex" Classical E. coli bacterial conjugation is often regarded as the bacterial equivalent of sexual reproduction or mating since it involves the exchange of genetic material. However, it is not sexual reproduction, since no exchange of gamete occurs, and indeed no generation of a new organism : instead an existing organism is transformed." Now when God creates really simple creatures, some functions are abandoned but the principles of reproduction remain. You should know Ecoli do have a sexual exchange of DNA, maybe primitive, but than GOD designed the small creature with smaller DNA code info. You are evading the topic, that for most advanced creatures, they exist as two personalities of loving, but one BEING. The Bull and Cow are a family kind of Bovine. Bull is no different to cow in terms of biology, yes their loving is different, Each personality is a family kind. In fact all the creatures with breathing have this design, love is made as two forms, the family kind, provider, responder and child collector. And ask why does GOD create this way? Obviously as a simile of elohiym as a power. There are many verses that tells us elohiym is a family power with personalities of loving. The Shadday and Eloah are not independent from each other. One shows femaleness love, the other maleness love, in Hebrew these forms of love as ahabuh and ahab. The SON of elohiym is indeed a collector love personality from eternity along with the heavenly parents. However you say the Father becomes the Son on earth. Yet the Father on earth prays much to the Father in heaven, as John 17 shows. Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: How does a Father on earth need to say to glorify a Father in heaven? Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. How does a Father on earth, finish a work in human form, for the Father in heaven? Does this make sense? Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. I suppose the Father on earth born of man, is given the name everlasting Father. Makes sense. But the prince of peace makes no sense. Why is the Father on earth a prince? Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, The Father in heaven calls to the Father in a Son of Man, and gives Him a kingdom, hence the everlasting Father in the Son becomes also a Prince. Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; The Father on earth as YHWH helps the Father in heaven as YHWH, so we see the two forms of the Father here. Makes sense so far. Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. The Father as gender male comes to the Father as gender female (HS) and the Father in the form of a Son is born using the normal functions of biology except the Father is also divine, so the human form is added to the divine form. I suppose this could work, but its weird to think this way. Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; Why is the Father as a father, the Father as a mother and the Father as a Son also renamed as a family in heaven? So this is role playing too. The birth of Jesus is role playing of the Father The family here in this verse is role playing too, from the Father. The two becomes one flesh is a role playing too? Or is it more simply to follow elohiym as a Family Divine Power. Just accept the simile as it reads. The biggest problem with your model Dave, is; how does the Father love the Father as the Shadday? Not possible really, possible as role playing, but its fake, programmed, no risk, no free will. For GOD to be perfect than GOD must have free will too, with independent personalities of loving that always choose to be functional in love, and thus never think to break their own laws of love. I define SIN as transgression of the royal law, written by the finger of GOD cannot be changed and is a code of ethics for all creatures who exist, including GOD, who have the intelligence to choose GOD with free will. Maybe not all creatures such as bacteria have free will to choose. But the higher creatures such as man and angels do have free will, and I also see within the family of GOD also having free will to love and be loved perfectly. Just to make sure we read torah correctly: Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Did the serpent speak truth or a lie here? Y/N? If one eats the forbidden fruit, GOD said they would "H4191 [e] מ֖וֹת mō-wṯ surely V-Qal-InfAbs H4191 [e] תְּמֻתֽוּן׃ tə-mu-ṯūn. you will die V-Qal-Imperf-2mp | Pn" And this question: Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? God declares to Satan that Job is perfect. Is this correct? Y/N Satan declares to GOD that Job is not perfect. Is this correct? Y/N Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Does GOD actually touch Job, all that Job has, so Job can be tested to curse GOD? Y/N? Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. Satan actually touches Job, and uses His own hand. Y/N? Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, Satan uses ra humans to do his ra work. Y/N? Did GOD tell Satan to test Job, or was GOD challenged by Satan to test Job? Which idea is it? Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, The hedge is stopping Satan from attacking JOB. T/F? Job 2:3 ... although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Who destroyed JOB? God or Satan? Why was Job tested? Because GOD wanted it? Or because Satan challenged GOD that JOB was not perfect? Job 2:11 ¶ Now when Job's three friends heard of all this evil that was come upon him, The three friends came to see all this RA that came upon Job... T/F? Where did Job's RA come from? God or Satan? GOD controls the extent of RA done to JOB T/F? Job 2:6 .. but save his life. Job's three friends saw the RA of Job coming from some SIN Job had done? But did the RA of JOB come from SIN in this case? Y/N? I want you to answer these questions so we agree how the torah reads. Interrupting the verse is a different matter. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 24, 2021 13:42:28 GMT -5
You are a scientist of sorts, so understand the basic premise of some of your statements. At one time in my life I wore my credentials on my sleeve – to maximize my earning potential In a contract negotiation you never accept their first offer I am was a Published PhD with 28yrs of tenure – it didn’t make me smarter – just more expensive My understanding all creatures GOD created for Edenic Earth were all tov, functional. The bacteria were free swimming and living without causing diseases.The fossil record does not support your claim Many fossils have evidence of trauma – teeth marks – and disease I know you deny all the scientific evidence After Adam sinned and GOD called forth the RA from Adam's sin as a curse to the ground, this references that all the Edenic Earth was cursed by Adam's sin. Everything went missing and began to wander from it's original functional path.No – everything was created for a purpose within creation – no evolution All species had certain skills to survive different environments from the beginning before Adam's sin It is called instinct – self-preservation / preservation of the species – after its own kind – no evolution Eg mozzies used to drink nectar, but the nectar lost nutrition so female mozzies seek blood instead. Again this requires no second creator, just a change to the sources of nutrition. Or that is how God made them – no evolutionIf all creatures had some functional purpose, where did disease, and dysfunctional creatures come from? What is a dysfunctional creature? Is that one then can’t feed – can’t reproduce You talk a lot of Ecoli, Dave, Nice Presentation Now when God creates really simple creatures, some functions are abandoned but the principles of reproduction remain. You should know Ecoli do have a sexual exchange of DNA, maybe primitive, but than GOD designed the small creature with smaller DNA code info.YES they do and when you think you can see one in a microscope you call everyone to see But these sex pili have nothing to do with reproduction – reproduction goes on with or without sex pili It is an exchange of genetic information – In the presence of a new food or a new toxin – the bacteria has the ability to rearrange its digestive enzymes. Once one has the answer – it shares a piece of its DNA to transmit that new information. So all its neighbors can now eat or defend the new food or toxin The biggest problem with your model Dave, is; how does the Father love the Father as the Shadday? Not possible really, possible as role playing, but its fake, programmed, no risk, no free will. The biggest error in your model is to think God is small and incapable Did the serpent speak truth or a lie here? Y/N? If one eats the forbidden fruit, GOD said they would – die now and surely die in the future The serpent said NOT – die now and surely die in the future Personally – I believe and accept the eternal life promised in John 3:16 So NO the serpent did not lie - And this question: Job 1:8 God declares to Satan that Job is perfect. Is this correct? Y/N - YESSatan declares to GOD that Job is not perfect. Is this correct? Y/N – NoSatan suggest that Job is perfect because God has been good to Job and asked the question – would Job still be perfect and righteous if God wasn’t good to Job – this is a question of the prosecutor – making sure no one slips past their judgmentJob 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Does GOD actually touch Job, all that Job has, so Job can be tested to curse GOD? Y/N? – YES – but not directly – indirectly through other staff YES God reach forth his hand and touch – but spiritually not physicallyJob 1:12 Satan actually touches Job, and uses His own hand. Y/N? No – satan is allow to touch all of Job’s things – just not Job personally Did satan use his own hand to touch – or more staff under him archons/ demon/ evil spirits the text does not say Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, Satan uses ra humans to do his ra work. Y/N?- YES absolutelyDid GOD tell Satan to test Job, or was GOD challenged by Satan to test Job? Which idea is it? Which idea is it? was GOD challenged by Satan to test Job? – the role of the prosecutorSo - GOD told Satan to test Job Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, The hedge is stopping Satan from attacking JOB. T/F? – True absolutely – it required God’s participation Job 2:3 ... although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Who destroyed JOB? God or Satan? DUH God moved satan to to the deedWhy was Job tested? Because GOD wanted it? Or because Satan challenged GOD that JOB was not perfect? Can anyone make God do something God doesn’t want to do? I do not believe in a weak GodJob 2:11 ¶ Now when Job's three friends heard of all this evil that was come upon him, The three friends came to see all this RA that came upon Job... T/F? Where did Job's RA come from? God or Satan? DUH - It came in the form of WORLD – other men – archon /and evil spirits (satan or others) And it came upon Job because God allowed it – God command
GOD controls the extent of RA done to JOB T/F? Job 2:6 .. but save his life. Yes – God is in control – even of the archonJob's three friends saw the RA of Job coming from some SIN Job had done? This is what it looked like to the man on the ground But did the RA of JOB come from SIN in this case? Y/N? No – not at all – Job was perfect and remained righteous through it allTherefore again ra is not the result of sin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2021 4:52:56 GMT -5
D" The fossil record does not support your claim Many fossils have evidence of trauma – teeth marks – and disease I know you deny all the scientific evidence R" what fossil record? Any records of fossils happened only after Noah's flood, nothing before. Before Noah, the Edenic world was more or less perfect, but experiencing ra since 2000 years since Adam sinned thereabouts. A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood? Where is your evidence?
D"No – everything was created for a purpose within creation – no evolution R" I agree , no evolution, but adaptation is a Creation Design.
D" If all creatures had some functional purpose, where did disease, and dysfunctional creatures come from? R" No such thing as a purely dysfunctional creature. All creatures had some functional purpose, including viruses.
Parasite worms are also free living, some got lazy and lived in hosts instead, as a adaptation change to survive that way, this change of living is dysfunctional, but give the right conditions such parasite worms will go back to be free living again.
Make grass more nutritious, lions will always eat grass. Make seaweed more nutritious, sharks will become vegetarian.
What makes some creatures become what we term dysfunctional, is simply adaptation, or changes to live in a fallen world. No evolution, change design code already there to take advantage of other diets if offered to such creatures.
D" Once one has the answer – it shares a piece of its DNA to transmit that new information. So all its neighbors can now eat or defend the new food or toxin R" clever design in bacteria, praise GOD.
D" The biggest error in your model is to think God is small and incapable R I do not think this at all. GOD is all powerful and clever, doesn't need natural ra as you claim, doesn't need friction, or entropy,
I believe GOD can create anything He likes, it's always functional and perfect.
Even Snow is perfect and functional to some degree, yet came to be since Adam sinned.
D" So NO the serpent did not lie - R" I am curious, why didn't the serpent lie? To me, the serpent lied alright, big time.
D"Satan suggest that Job is perfect because God has been good to Job and asked the question – would Job still be perfect and righteous if God wasn’t good to Job – this is a question of the prosecutor – making sure no one slips past their judgment R" I would agree with you except you forget one Hebrew word here, "hedge"
"would Job still be perfect and righteous if God wasn’t good to Job?"
You ask an interesting question. Show me any text where GOD makes trials to people honestly seeking GOD with all their heart, mind and soul? You saying GOD does RA to people in order to test them? Your are saying GOD does bad things to people serving GOD?
What a strange concept of GOD you have Dave? To me GOD is love, not vindictive, not a cruel tyrant wanting to test/tempt his supporting seeking Him.
You tell me of a Father looking for the prodigal to return and the Father runs to the son, wraps this cloak around him and kisses him. Not the picture you are painting here Dave?
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Here is a verse with nacah in it, the idea to test people. Is this a test of cruelity ? No, it's a test to see if the people obey the torah correctly. DO they love GOD or not?
Ps 78:10 They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
Here is the reason for the testing, the people did not love GOD to begin with.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him?
What is a hedge Dave? to keep attackers out? Have you ever considered Satan as attacking JOB normally all the time? Not as a prosecutor but as an attacker?
D" Therefore again ra is not the result of sin R" Sorry Dave, you pick and choose and ignore verses you do not like
Though a sinner do ra a hundred times. Verse ecc 8:12 remember?
RA comes from sin. This verse says so.
So the RA inflicted upon JOB has to be the result of SINNING?
But you ignore this and Say the Prosecutor is truthful and on God's side. No
The opposer is opposing GOD, hence sinning and doing RA to JOB. God is allowing this even though JOB is perfect, because GOD is challenged by the Opposer in this SIN contest.
When you have a SIN problem, one must answer fairly in love, all the challenges of the accuser.
Study the word "hedge" in Job and see who is behind the hedge.
Job 10:10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? 11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced "hedged" me with bones and sinews. 12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit. 13 And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee. 14 ¶ If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity. 15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction; 16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me. 17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me. 18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me! 19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, 21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; 22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness. (KJV)
The word hedge is associated with words like lion, shadow of death, and shaowl.
Nothing to do with prosecutor, more about an attacker attacking Job, and complaining about the hedge stopping Satan from further attacking Job.
When you seek salvation, GOD protects you from the Satanic agencies.
Ps 121:7 The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil:
GOD does not send RA to his own. You have to find some other reason Dave, why the RA came upon JOB, GOD did not send it.
Question: "What is a hedge of protection?"
Answer: In the first chapter of Job, God points out to Satan that Job is "blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil" (Job 1:8). Satan replies, "Does Job fear God for nothing?...Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?" (verses 9–10). It is common for Christians to adapt this verse and pray a "hedge of protection" around a friend or family member, but few people understand the original inspiration behind the phrase.
In the time of the Old Testament, wild animals were much more prevalent in the Middle East than they are today. The Bible mentions lions (Judges 14:5), wolves (Jeremiah 5:6), bears (1 Samuel 17:34), leopards (Hosea 13:7), and hyenas (Isaiah 13:22). Although stone walls could keep predators away from living areas and livestock, the walls would have to be very tall and would take a long time to make. Wood was not plentiful enough to waste on a fence. Instead, a hedge of thorn bushes could be induced to grow around a living compound. Thorn bushes would be too dense to crawl through, too sharp to chew through, and too deep for all but the most determined leopard to jump over. A hedge would also be a deterrent to sheep and goats seeking to escape their pen. As Satan is compared to a "lion looking for someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8), a thorn hedge is an appropriate metaphor for the protection God gives His followers.
Is it wrong to ask God for a hedge of protection around yourself or someone else? Absolutely not. In addition to putting on the armor God gives us (Ephesians 6:13-17), there is nothing wrong with asking for God’s protection. As seen with Job, a hedge is an apt illustration for what God’s protection looks like."
This is even more proof to me that God’s hedge of protection is real and effective. Even Satan complains that it protects people."
God’s hedge of protection is mentioned in the book of Job when satan complained to God about it. Indeed, not even satan himself was able to cross it."
You need to study this theme Dave, the hedge of protection, that even Satan complained about, and could not penetrate, unless GOD steps aside. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 26, 2021 0:17:51 GMT -5
D" The fossil record does not support your claim Many fossils have evidence of trauma – teeth marks – and disease I know you deny all the scientific evidence R" what fossil record? Any records of fossils happened only after Noah's flood, A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood? Where is your evidence?A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood I agree 100% - from the surface of the landThere are some surface features that remain – like the Sphynx In the American West – the soil was supersaturated to a depth of 1000 feet – when the water receded off the rising continents – this muddy slurry eroded much of the surface – this process would have scrapped the surface clean I agree – 100%Where is your evidence?Answer – the evidence of Days 3-6 - under the surface I cannot speak to Australia but in the American West the layering of the earth’s surface is so obvious It is true all over the world – and- all over the world similar layers at similar depths contain the same evidence (eggs and tamalies on the edge of the Grand Canyon x-mass morning 2006)Example – the iridium layer – all around the globe the result is the same – no dinos above the layer Science suggest that iridium is from space and was deposited globally by an impact that ejected the iridium into the atm to settle in a thin layer all around the globe Science suggest this might also be the impact that killed all the dinos Science suggest this happened 65M yrs ago Science also says the oldest ocean floor = 70M yrs ago WEDD says whatever happed – the shock wave cleared the inner solar system of debris (Relative to the outer solar system we are in a safer zone today) FD-WEDT says any shockwave that could eject the atms of the inner planets and clear the inner system of debris – is so capable to crash something into earth as it decompressed The only adjustment to the science = 65M and 70M yrs ago become 67.5M +/- 2.5M Older rock is harder than younger rock 6.1 gr/cm -vrs- 5.6 grams/cc density The oldest rock contain the most ancient fossil evidence And that evidence under the ground says Plant and animal life began singular cellular – the most ancient plant on earth = green algae that probably helped oxygenate the atm All kids in schools know then the fish walked out onto the land – wrong But land based life came after aquatic life The fossil record is in absolute agreement with the creation week No one is sure if fowl came from the land or the sea – evidence for both Scripture says before land animals – so that is what I accept Man is the last creature to be created Also in absolute agreement with the creation week And this is exactly what the geological record shows - under the surfaceGen 2:4 These are the genealogical records … of the earth when … God blessed them by saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill WEDD and FD-WEDT curiosity – there are no fossils from the oceans And most aquatic fossils are found in mountains or deserts – as if everything went backwards Also – oldest fossils of man come from an area with no dino fossils And the only dino fossils from the Middle East are fish (Israel / Jordan/Syria/ Lebanon) None of this has anything to do with radiometric dating It is geological dating – carved in stone And all before man of Day 6 D"No – everything was created for a purpose within creation – no evolution R" I agree , no evolution, but adaptation is a Creation Design.I see no evolution – just Darwinian natural selection to adapt R No evolution, change design code already there to take advantage of other diets if offered to such creaturesThat is what I said - – just Darwinian natural selection to adapt ------------------ D" If all creatures had some functional purpose, where did disease, and dysfunctional creatures come from?Please quote yourself correctlyRobert said - If all creatures had some functional purpose, where did disease, and dysfunctional creatures come from?T hen dave asked - What is a dysfunctional creature? Is that one then can’t feed – can’t reproduceSo Robert says - R" No such thing as a purely dysfunctional creature. All creatures had some functional purpose, including viruses.------------------ OK you say a virus has a functional purposeQuestion – God told creation to go and multiply – and how does a virus multiply A virus is a simple organism – it is born – it lives and feeds –and it dies in reproduction to give new life 1- the virus has to destroy itself to multiply and fill the earth 2- a virus must use another’s DNA – a host cell - to make its baby viruses 3- when these new babies are released – the host cell is also destroyed You talk about disease and parasites What is a disease? – is it an organism that causes damage to its host? Feeds off its host? Pollutes and destroys its host? – MAN IS A DISEASE If man eats a cow – it is called lunch If a bacteria eats a cow – it is called a disease – and ra A bacteria is just like a virus – all it its doing is living by feeding – so it can reproduce – in death - to give new life A parasite – is a creature that lives to feed – so it can reproduce – to make new life It host thinks it is a ra OK you say a virus has a functional purposeThat would be to live to feed – to reproduce – new life God blessed them by saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill So how do they do this without causing ra to another? D" The biggest error in your model is to think God is small and incapable R I do not think this at all. GOD is all powerful and clever, doesn't need natural ra as you claim, doesn't need friction, or entropy, I believe GOD can create anything He likes, it's always functional and perfect. You run around declaring God cannot do this or God cannot do that and God can’t even make our realityD" So NO the serpent did not lie - R" I am curious, why didn't the serpent lie? To me, the serpent lied alright, big time.2 deaths – one now – one surely in the future You want this to say – from right now you begin to age – and later you will die of old age All you are talking about is your mortality – just biology Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Greek Tartarus) 1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. So 2 deaths – one now as an animal (mortality) and the second death takes place in the Lake of Fire – the death of spirit God told Adam – if you die as an animal – you will surely die the second death – the death of spirit This is true – because the offer of salvation was not made to Adam and Eve - yet God just didn’t explain His entire plan to Adam The serpent said – NO (then the exact same phrase) – if you die as an animal – you will surely die the second death – the death of spirit And the result of this was =Gen 3:15 If – all you see here is satan’s seed –vrs- Eve’s seed – it is man –vrs- archon = a curse If you see satan’s seed –vrs- Eve’s seed (Jesus Christ) = it is the promise of salvation Now that man has an opportunity to repent and be saved from that second death – but instead have eternal life if you die as an animal – you will surely die the second death – the death of spirit = NO the serpent saidWhat God said is true – because the offer of salvation was not made to Adam and Eve - yet God just didn’t explain His entire plan to Adam What the serpent said the Eve was also the truth Eve was ignorant and did not understand what the serpent said Truth – yet misunderstanding = deception Eve did not understand until after she ate of the Tree of the Knowledge D"Satan suggest that Job is perfect because God has been good to Job and asked the question – would Job still be perfect and righteous if God wasn’t good to Job – this is a question of the prosecutor – making sure no one slips past their judgment R" I would agree with you except you forget one Hebrew word here, "hedge""would Job still be perfect and righteous if God wasn’t good to Job?"Yes – this is the question that satan asked God – the job of a good prosecutor – exposing the truthYou ask an interesting question. Show me any text where GOD makes trials to people honestly seeking GOD with all their heart, mind and soul?Job 2:3 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Have you noticed My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand Arthur Clark Commentary… Satan pursues man with implacable enmity, (he is supposed to – Gen 3:15) and that he can do no man hurt, either in his person or property, but by the especial permission of God; and that God gives him permission only when he purposes to overrule it for the greater manifestation of his own glory, and the greater good of his tempted followers. You saying GOD does RA to people in order to test them? You are saying GOD does bad things to people serving GOD?Deu 8:2… —in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. D" Therefore again ra is not the result of sin R" Sorry Dave, you pick and choose and ignore verses you do not likeQuestion – was Job a sinner or a righteous manIf Job was a righteous man – then what was his sin that he was punished for So was the ra upon Job the result of Job’s sin?Nothing to do with prosecutor, more about an attacker attacking Job, and complaining about the hedge stopping Satan from further attacking Job.Job was the complainer in the Book – so Job was complaining that God had a hedgeGOD does not send RA to his own. You have to find some other reason Dave, why the RA came upon JOB, GOD did not send it.Job 2:3 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Have you noticed My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason.” This is even more proof to me that God’s hedge of protection is real and effective. Even Satan complains that it protects people." God’s hedge of protection is mentioned in the book of Job when satan complained to God about it. Indeed, not even satan himself was able to cross it." Agreed – until God left him passJob 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/18429/God-Removed-Protective-Hedge-from-Job.htmWhat the Bible says about God Removed the Protective Hedge from JobMany people have a hard time with this aspect of God, preferring to shy away from it. Yet He says Himself that He creates calamity (Isaiah 45:7). What is calamity if not crookedness on a monumental scale? He caused the Flood that destroyed all of mankind save eight. He removed a hedge around Job, which resulted in a tremendous trial. He decimated the nation of Egypt. When His people were obedient, He annihilated the armies of those who came against them, but when His people were rebellious, He fought against them and spoiled their efforts. He sent Israel into captivity, scattering them so thoroughly that most of them do not even know who they are. Closer to home, He scattered His own church because He judged that its course needed to be upset—because it was not good.
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Post by Dave on Mar 28, 2021 1:24:21 GMT -5
My understanding all creatures GOD created for Edenic Earth were all tov, functional. The bacteria were free swimming and living without causing diseases. D" The fossil record does not support your claim R" what fossil record? Any records of fossils happened only after Noah's flood, A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood? Where is your evidence?A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood I agree 100% - from the surface of the landThere are some surface features that remain – like the Sphynx In the American West – the soil was supersaturated to a depth of 1000 feet – when the water receded off the rising continents – this muddy slurry eroded much of the surface – this process would have scrapped the surface clean I agree – 100%Where is your evidence?Answer – the evidence of Days 3-6 - under the surface I cannot speak to Australia but in the American West the layering of the earth’s surface is so obvious It is true all over the world – and- all over the world similar layers at similar depths contain the same evidence As serious as I can – as honest as I can – I will explain myself I hope you read it someday For a moment forget the flawed measurement of time by isotopic decay The amount of decay = the greater amount present in the past – NOT TIME Actually – this measurement proves that earth was much larger in the past (or at least these elements were present in greater quantity) WARNING – I could speak to this for hours R" what fossil record? Any records of fossils happened only after Noah's flood, A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood? Where is your evidence?A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood I agree 100% - from the surface of the landThe earth was laid down in a status layers This layering is absolutely consistent around the globe Go to one side of an ocean (Pennsylvania) and you can see it with your naked eye God to the other side of an ocean (Spain) and you can see it with your naked eye The following is from the book "Coal Mining in Australia, published in 1948. Lithgow State Coal Mine owned by the New South Wales Government, is situated north of Lithgow and west of Sydney. This layering of rock strata is consistent all over the worldFossils and rock(Wiki) As for coal, Strauss notes that the world's coal deposits “were laid down during the Carboniferous period, about 300 million years ago—which was still a good 75 million or so years before the evolution of the first dinosaurs.” Coal was formed when the dense forests and jungles were “buried beneath layers of sediment, . YES the primary fossils found in coal are ancient plants and fishDinos are found above coal Immediately above coal are small animals Above that are larger animals Until - you reach the Iridium layer Then there is never another dino found Incremental Creation does not undermine the 6 Days of Creation All I say is that Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout grass, green plants happened first Geologically – this happened – during or around the time of coal Above the coal the fossil layer = Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the land sprout … fruit trees Giant trees are the find in the rock layer This was Day 3 Skip a Day 4 – long pause in ecological creation Consistent with the fossil record Day 5 = Gen 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures! YES! Very consistent with the fossil record All school kids are taught life began in the sea – then crawled out Next on Day 5 = Gen 1:21 Then God created the large sea creatures YES! Very consistent with the fossil record Next on Day 5 = Gen 1:21 Then God created … and every living creature that crawls, YES! Very consistent with the fossil record All school kids are taught life began in the sea – then crawled out Day 6 = Gen 1:24 Then God said, “Let the land bring forth living creatures Then - Gen 1:24 Then God said, “…livestock, crawling creatures and wild animals, Then - Gen 1:25 … and everything that crawls on the ground, AND THEN - Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, YES! Very consistent with the fossil record All school kids are taught this order of creation – they just call it evolution R" what fossil record? Any records of fossils happened only after Noah's flood, A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood? Where is your evidence?A global flood would destroy any records of evidence before the flood I agree 100% - from the surface of the land [/quote] Agreed – the surface evidence was erased correct However – the players of Gen 2-8 were standing on top of layers of fossils already laid down in the rock strata under their feet Then THE FLOOD OF NOAHExample – the iridium layer – all around the globe the result is the same – no dinos above the layer Science suggest that iridium is from space and was deposited globally by an impact that ejected the iridium into the atm to settle in a thin layer all around the globe Science suggest this might also be the impact that killed all the dinos Science suggest this happened 65M yrs ago Science also says the oldest ocean floor = 70M yrs ago WEDD says whatever happed – the shock wave cleared the inner solar system of debris (Relative to the outer solar system we are in a safer zone today) FD-WEDT says any shockwave that could eject the atms of the inner planets and clear the inner system of debris – is so capable to crash something into earth as it decompressed The only adjustment to the science = 65M and 70M yrs ago become 67.5M +/- 2.5M 100% scriptural + 100% in agreement with all the evidence
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 15:23:07 GMT -5
Your reply is big Dave, nicely written too. A great read. Thanks. Where to begin? You speak of layers and this Iridium layer from space. I just see all this as the Great Flood. Before the flood were dino, man, mammals, all living creatures. The canopy removed more radiation effects, so the flood buried millions of tonnes of plants into coal, the process of turning trees into coal takes a few weeks using heat and pressure. The process of changing algae into oil just a few weeks also using heat and pressure. The flood deposited the layers upon layers rapidly, about dozen layers as the initial rush went over the earth. Larger animals swam for a while, and drowned, like dino got buried first, the lighter faster animals swam more and got buried higher up as layers of mud buried them, making new layers rapidly. As the canopy was destroyed the radiation from space poured in, causing radioactive decay and adding iridium layer, and more layers all over the earth up to 1,000 metres deep. Than the waters recede carving massive valleys into the earth at same time mountains rise up, giving rise to rivers running through mountains. I do not see your evidence as anything apart from a global flood deposit. If you visit coal seams you also see seashells and tree stumps, some underside down and most sideways. If you visit dino sites you smell dead protein odours, indicating the records are not very old. If you visit fossils in sedimentary rocks and break them open you smell sea smells, again things are not very old. You find seashells on all mountain tops, and mammals buried with the dinosaurs, as well as flying birds. Most museums hide this evidence. Recent volcano eruptions such as St Helen's in 1986 show 150 layers deposited in 10 minutes and tested to be 3 million years old. Go figure. As for you explanation that the serpent did not lie, I am still not clear? What two deaths do you speak about, and what does animal death and spirit death mean? To me, GOD was speaking about one death. Today immediately if you eat of the tree, you will immediately begin dying. You said death is the cessation of chemistry? Death is really about the final separation of GOD from you, the Being. Define death to me. When soul stops being a soul, skin cells keep growing, hair keep growing and toe nail keep growing, so death is not the cessation of bio-chemistry. Death is the separation of you, as a soul, from GOD. The first separation is temporary, ie you sleep. The second separation is permanent, you cease to exist. When the serpent said you will not die, he was introducing the idea that the soul never dies, and is a spirit, something you seem to agree with with serpent. You are deceived to think this idea Dave. Even our Rabbi said, the soul lives upon mortal death. That too is a deception. What causes the soul to be living energy is the presence of GOD with you, as dirt. What causes the soul to vanish is the return of the medium after you sleep as dirt. What causes the soul to see heaven is the return of GOD with you again, as dirt. You mention a verse: You misquote the verse from it's context 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. The passage is saying our corrupt flesh is given a makeover. We live in heaven with brand new DNA that is NOT corrupt. The soul still has the connection to GOD, as you, with brand new dirt, that has no ra in it. The passage is referring to this change. It is not saying the soul is just a spirit, without dirt attached to it. Sorry the serpent lived, our Rabbi who says the soul lives, also is lying. If you say the spirit lies, what is death than? to you it must be the end of biology attached to the spirit. If that is the case why create using E=MC2? Why not just create using E? The M gives shape to the E. You are saying the E has not shape? Is GOD only E or does GOD also have shape, ie defined by M? Lu 3:22 And <kai> the Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma> descended <katabaino> in a bodily <somatikos> shape <eidos> like <hosei> a dove <peristera> upon <epi> him <autos>, and <kai> a voice <phone> came <ginomai> from <ek> heaven <ouranos>, which said <lego>, Thou <su> art <ei> my <mou> beloved <agapetos> Son <huios>; in <en> thee <soi> I am well pleased <eudokeo>. Lu 9:29 And <kai> as <en> he <autos> prayed <proseuchomai>, the fashion <eidos> of his <autos> countenance <prosopon> was <ginomai> altered <heteros>, and <kai> his <autos> raiment <himatismos> was white <leukos> and glistering <exastrapto>. Joh 5:37 And <kai> the Father <pater> himself <autos>, which hath sent <pempo> me <me>, hath borne witness <martureo> of <peri> me <emou>. Ye have <akouo> neither <oute> heard <akouo> his <autos> voice <phone> at any time <popote>, nor <oute> seen <horao> his <autos> shape <eidos>. 2Co 5:7 (For <gar> we walk <peripateo> by <dia> faith <pistis>, not <ou> by <dia> sight <eidos> 1Th 5:22 Abstain <apechomai> from <apo> all <pas> appearance <eidos> of evil <poneros>. (KJV) All verses using shape. Evil is not nebulous, it comes in the shape of angels sinning. 1Th 5:22 Salvation is based on powers that seem nebulous , never can be walk seeing strong evidence of shape. 2Co 5:7 We have need seen the Father's shape Joh 5:37 Praying hard the face of Jesus changed shape Lu 9:29 The medium can descend in a bodily shape. Lu 3:22 even though its a nebulous medium in form. SO I find evidence that elohiym powers is not just E, it also has M, shape, size and appearance. Can we explain this ? No Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 29, 2021 6:54:14 GMT -5
I just see all this as the Great Flood.Your 8th grade science not withstanding – please provide the mechanism Other than it was magic Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Do you deny scripture? Is not our history obvious to those who seriouse examine it The only conclusion = Intelligent Design - not magic So you deny the order of creation as laid out in Gen 1 Each day God did his creating in one nano-second and rested the rest of the 23hrs 59 minutes 59 seconds and 99% of the remaining nanoseconds So all of your creatures were created at once like magic Then they all lined up and died in crorrect order to give the illusion of Gen 1Your 8th grade science not withstanding I’m surprised – your views are different than Creation MinistriesDR Brown's hydroplate theory - does not suggest a rearranging / or reforming of the crust - only that the crust slid as a complete tectonic plate atop the lubrucating fluid waters Recent volcano eruptions such as St Helen's in 1986 show 150 layers deposited in 10 minutes and tested to be 3 million years old. Go figure.Another Robert absolute – please back up your statements with datablogs.scientificamerican.com/rosetta-stones/mount-saint-helens-lays-her-eruptive-history-bare-stratigraphy-viewpoint/Mount Saint Helens Lays Her Eruptive History Bare: Stratigraphy Viewpoint If you like your stratigraphy, this is about where you start to salivate a lot. The cliff there is 20 feet tall in places, and was carved out by the lahar and floods that pounded down this river drainage on May 18th, 1980 and more events since. We can see an appreciable chunk of Mount St. Helens's eruptive history in that bank, from 13,000 years ago right up to that cataclysmic May morning. There are at least twelve total layers, although some are hard to see even up close. If you get your nose up against it, you're going to discover five layers of airfall tephra (ash and pumice that fell like lithic rain from eruption clouds), three pyroclastic flow layers (ash and pumice layers that sometimes contain wood ripped up and charred by the flows' superheated gasses), two lahar layers (including one from May 18th), and two soil layers. Here's a very rough guide to some of the major divisions within one portion of the bank: Each layer represents an air fall – 5 different puffs of ash into the air that fell in 5 different layers All this demonstrates is that the volcano puffed 5 times As for you explanation that the serpent did not lie, I am still not clear? What two deaths do you speak about, and what does animal death and spirit death mean? To me, GOD was speaking about one death.Answer – you are well verse in your doctrine – not scriptureIf your doctrine hasn’t instructed you on the subject – you don’t know it Because all you have done is study your doctrine – try studying the scripture as a whole Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Ruach is saying to Messiah’s communities. The one who overcomes shall never be harmed by the second death.” Rev 20:6 How fortunate and holy is the one who has a share in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no authority, but they shall be kohanim of God and the Messiah, and they shall reign with Him for a thousand years Rev 20:14 Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 But for the cowardly and faithless and detestable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars—their lot is in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” When soul stops being a soul, skin cells keep growing, hair keep growing and toe nail keep growing, so death is not the cessation of bio-chemistry.WHAT – when an apple stops being an apple? All you see is biology – so sadwhat is death than? to you it must be the end of biologyThe Holy Spirit that dwells amoung the people as the shekinah is not biology The comforter that come into man’s heart – is not biology And when Christ commended his spirit to heaven – his DNA went into the tombGod is not biology that has bone and flesh and bleeds - how disrespectfulIs GOD only E or does GOD also have shape, ie defined by M?Lu 3:22 And <kai> the Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma> descended <katabaino> in a bodily <somatikos> shape <eidos> like <hosei> a dove <peristera> upon <epi> him <autos>, and <kai> a voice <phone> came <ginomai> 1- I asked you to stop using this translation here – it is difficult to read – but you do not have to respect my wishes if you choose 2- of course God has a shape – it is called ChristAll verses using shape. – ReallyExo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine—he was a priest of El Elyon. Gen 14:19 He blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram by El Elyon, Creator of heaven and earth, We have need seen the Father's shape Joh 5:37DUH – he shape of the Father = Christ – I have known this since Sunday SchoolJoh 14:7 If you have come to know Me, you will know My Father also. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him.” Evil is not nebulous, it comes in the shape of angels sinning. 1Th 5:22Please quote scripture accuracy – at least have respect for the scriptures 1Th 5:22 (TLV) keep away from every kind of evil. 1 Th 5:22 (OJB) Abstain from every appearance of ra'ah (evil). 1Th 5:22 (KJV) Abstain from all appearance of evil. G4190 – πονηρός - From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil G4192 – πόνος - From the base of G3993; toil, that is, (by implication) anguish: - pain. G3993 – πένης - (to toil for daily subsistence); starving, that is, indigent: - poor. Praising the LordQuestion - are you offended by Jenny Weaver? Question - you keep speaking about returning to a more Herew approach to scripture Do you sing praises to God? Some churches do not sing Some churches do not use any musical instruments Some of the most popular churches are the ones with best live music Question - How did the Jews sing praises in the Temple? Answer - they sang the Psalms Question - Why does any Jewish boy or girl know the scripture so fully while Christiandem church goers only know doctrine? Answer - they grow up singing the Psalms Psa 51:1 For the music director: a psalm of David, youtu.be/pbILLkOmLdc
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 14:41:14 GMT -5
Evidence ? youtu.be/8sL21aSWDMYDon Patton provides a lot of evidence. I watch all his videos, he is a geologist. I sing the 23rd Psalm Dave nearly every day I walk to work Singing words is the same as praying words, same as reading words. The brain receives the message and is easier to learn. You say Christ is the masculine shape of the Father and the HS is the feminine shape of the Father. Hmmm? Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (KJV) Torah says nobody has seen shape of Father, nor heard His voice. I stick to torah, what you are presenting is different. D" Some churches do not sing Some churches do not use any musical instruments R we do both of these, without rock music though. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 29, 2021 15:10:30 GMT -5
Evidence ? Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (KJV) Torah says nobody has seen shape of Father, nor heard His voice. I stick to torah, what you are presenting is different. Really Ex 33:20-23 is error God never spoke to Moses – or Abraham – or Noah – or anyone You are a sick satan worshiper Now you are resorting to making up stuff
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2021 3:26:34 GMT -5
Dave , no need to get emotional.
Jesus spoke to Moses, Abraham and Noah, not the Father.
He was the messenger (malak) sent by Eloah to Israel.
Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel (malak) "messenger" before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
The only messenger I know with the Father's Name and can forgive sins, is Yashua, the Son.
Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. (KJV)
This YHWH was Yashua-YHWH not ELOAH-YHWH
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ac 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Whom is Stephen speaking about? Yashua-YHWH
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 30, 2021 6:23:14 GMT -5
There is only ONE GOD You can divide Him up into as many names as you wish but each of those names - IS NOT A NEW AND DIFFERENT GOD There is only one God - anyone who says otherwise denies the One True God
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2021 13:50:44 GMT -5
Greetings Dave.
Why do many verses in Scripture where one Being speaking to another Being? Jews have noticed this...
Let's say you wanted to present one god in the heavens, what Hebrew word would you use? "el"
So why all the other Hebrew words than?
Let's pick a passage and test your idea, surely Scripture must make sense? I will pick Psalms 5.
Ps 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God "elohiym": for unto thee will I pray.
One of the more common Hebrew words is "elohiym"
Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Why the change of Hebrew to "el", notice this "Strong authority" does not dwell with RA.
But you say this "el" even creates "RA", maybe one verse says that, but does not dwell with RA.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
This "el" hates the Beings who sin, hence who also do RA.
Ps 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Finally we have another common Hebrew word "YHWH" to describe this "el"
Ps 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God;
Than we go back to what seems a larger term "elohiym"
Ps 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous;
And finally the "He who exists" shall bless the straight.
SO why are these three Hebrew terms used, when "el" would suffice alone, if your theory is correct.
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Consider the parallels in creation:
Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
elohiym created the things we see, in grammar this is listed as "masculine he singular"
If elohiym is "plural in grammar, " how does this make sense?
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure:
There are three more Hebrew words listed here
(1) ruwach (2) son (3) eloah
Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
There are three more Hebrew words listed here
(1) YHWH (2) eloah (3) shadday
Re 4:8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
There are three more Hebrew words listed here, translated into the Greek
(1) YHWH (2) elohiym (3) Shadday
Finally to highlight a few
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Listed here is also three terms
(1) elohiym or theos (2) Father or eloah (3) Son, yasha, Jesus Christ (4) Spirit, ruwach or Shadday
(5) family in heaven
This verse adds a NT label, suggesting elohiym is a family in heaven.
Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God
There is a most high "el", that is also named as eloah in the OT and Father in the NT
Ge 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Clearly Abram worships the most high "el" in heaven, clearly the term here is the Father.
Ge 17:1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (KJV)
Here we see three Hebrew terms
(1) YHWH (2) SHadday as EL (3) Yashua as Jesus the Son
Jesus says He spoke to Abram, how can Abram see "divine powers" and not perish? Answer: the SHADDAY EL also walked with YHWH, as a medium, allowing Abram to see YASHUA YHWH and not perish. Thus the power of Jesus as "divine power" enters the medium, and is diminished enough for Abram to encounter meeting face to face with "God ".
Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
This verse says Jesus appeared to Abram as YHWH, not as el shadday.
Ex 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
Notice YHWH is also termed as "el" but in a plural sense, other "el's" also exist.
Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Here the terms elohiym and el are used together in false worship of idols. How does these words make sense?
YHWH thy elohiym is a jealous el.
Obviously YHWH is a el, and the term elohiym must mean a family of el.
Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Same idea here
DO not worhsip other el, for YHWH is a jealous el.
Nu 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Notice Israel refers to el, as the the elohiym of ruwach of all flesh.
SO one el was leading Israel here, and the Israelite's referred to one el
Nu 24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt;
Notice el rescued Israel from Egypt.
De 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Notice YHWH referenced as elohiym is a jealous el.
De 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Here is a confusing verse
YHWH is el, is also elohiym of elohiym and lord of lords, a mighty el.
De 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: 12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. 13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Here is a another confusing passage
The verse 11 is about the HS as a simile of an eagle, in feminine terms.
The verse 12 says YHWH alone did lead Israel, no other strange el with him
Jeff Benner says this term alone means to be separated from a group, not a reference to one solitary.
The verse 13 speaks the flint rock, a simile of the Father.
SO here are three members of a divine family, but one el lead Israel out of Egypt.
De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Makes sense as one el led Israel out of Egypt, does not say anything about the term elohiym.
So back to Creation, the elohiym, and the grammar masculine he singular.
Not a single use of el, or YHWH but only elohiym in the Genesis account.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
This suggests Creation is a simile or image of elohiym and offers clues to how GOD is like.
First created was adam from adamuh as a prince of earth's creation.
Second the helpmate Eve was built from Adam and presented in marriage to Adam, the two become one (echad) flesh.
How does Hebrew view this idea of two becoming one?
Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
A father's body is the same as his wife's body, they are the same BEING.
Hebrew does not view two Beings here, but one Being.
SO did really a family divine power Create, though one member of the Family was most active?
Let's see:
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (KJV)
Here YHWH-Jesus spoke and the Ruwach did what He said.
Mal 2:10 ¶ Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
Here we have "Ab" as Father in heaven, written as one "el" who created us?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
But here it says Jesus created us, which elohiym ordained?
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
But here it says Jesus created us, which elohiym empowered?
How does this make sense?
Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Who is LORD here? The Most High possessed from eternity "me", who is "me" The SON.
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Who is the I here? The HS, or SHadday who helped the SON create.
SO how can all three powers create, if the reference is masculine he singular?
The SON spoke the words, the HS used the power the Father, and allowed the SON to create. What we have here is masculine he singular created, using a divine system of power.
A divine family if you will.
But Jews would term this three el's, three independent gods?
NO, the term marriage and echad, imply we have ONE FAMILY, with ONE BEING expressed as three personalities of love. Not as three beings of love, but three personalities of love.
To establish a divine family in Hebrew you would need
a Hebrew word for divinity as power "elohiym" is plural a Hebrew word for masculine leaders "YHWH" "He who exist" a Hebrew word for a messenger sent from family power "malak" a Hebrew word for most high "eloah" also as "Ab" the provider of love a Hebrew word for medium (HS) who functions as a responder of love (shadday) and is feminine as love A Hebrew word for collective love as a child like carrying love from the family home, a SON, Yashuah A Hebrew word for defining one strong authority as a time "el"
And
Hebrew words to describe cardinally one el , the term is yaccid Hebrew word to describe cardinally one system functioning as compound unity, is echad
SO we see the reason for these different Hebrew words, and how they are used.
Most of Scripture is poetry showing similes for a reason, to show man simple ways to understand GOD and his salvation.
Your idea of one god as three expressions, the He talking to the same He in another form, is not so simple a simile to fathom. The use of father and son is also confusing with your view.
In my view, the view of torah, all these common Hebrew words make sense as a whole, even verse makes sense, not as Gordon find out, leaving 6 verses out of his theory because he does not like them.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 30, 2021 19:12:05 GMT -5
Let's say you wanted to present one god in the heavens, what Hebrew word would you use? "el" So why all the other Hebrew words than?
Wait for it – Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. E = mc2 -or- E= c2m
Word Parsed: - אֱלֹהִים - Noun Mas. Pl. - H430 Plural of H433; gods
Word Parsed: שָׁמַיִם - Noun Mas. Pl. - H8064 - heaven, heavens, sky
Word Parsed: [אֶרֶץ -Noun Fem. Sing. - H776 - land, earth
In the beginning – God (pl) bara = male heavens and female earth Noun (subject ) = predicate nominative male and predicate nominative female Predicate nominative = subject = predicate / predicate = subject I am me or me am I / Dave is president – the president = Dave
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God = earth and heavens – or- heavens and earth = God
God the Creator (E) (fatten Himself into) male heavens + female earth Male heavens + female earth = God
SO why are these three Hebrew terms used, when "el" would suffice alone, if your theory is correct. Because God exist as a TRINITY - DUH
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Consider the parallels in creation: Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. elohiym created the things we see, in grammar this is listed as "masculine he singular" If elohiym is "plural in grammar, " how does this make sense? Because elohiym = TRINITY We call the Creator FATHER out of respect In a male centered world / society / culture – no one is comfortable calling the Creator “IT”
(1) ruwach (2) son (3) eloah
(1) YHWH (2) eloah (3) shadday
(1) YHWH (2) elohiym (3) Shadday
(1) YHWH (2) SHadday as EL (3) Yashua as Jesus the Son
Finally to highlight a few – examples of the TRINITY
(1) elohiym or theos = (2) Father or eloah (3) Son, yasha, Jesus Christ (4) Spirit, ruwach or Shadday
(5) family in heaven = TRINITY
This verse adds a NT label, suggesting elohiym is a family in heaven. = TRINITY
Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God There is a most high "el", that is also named as eloah in the OT and Father in the NT You missed it – who is the priest to the Father Creator here = Christ Trinity
YHWH thy elohiym is a jealous el. Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Jos 22:22 “God of gods is Adonai! God of gods is Adonai! He knows, and may Israel itself know! If we acted in rebellion or in treachery against Adonai, don’t spare us this day!
The One True Creator is God to all the ‘other gods’ in existence That would be the bane elohiym – or the Nephilim – or any archon – or any man /Caesar /Emperor Ito / King of Tyre
Nu 16: Notice Israel refers to el, as the elohiym of ruwach of all flesh. YES! The Glory of God = the medium / ether / matrix / zero point energy field that sustains the all = the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God as per Gen 1:1
De 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Here is a confusing verse YHWH is el, is also elohiym of elohiym and lord of lords, a mighty el. DUH – Jos 22:22 “God of gods is Adonai! God of gods is Adonai! He knows, and may Israel itself know! If we acted in rebellion or in treachery against Adonai, don’t spare us this day!
The One True Creator is Gos to all the ‘other gods’ in existence That would be the bane elohiym – or the Nephilim – or any archon – or any man /Caesar /Emperor Ito / King of Tyre
De 32:11 - 13 Here is a another confusing passage The verse 11 is about the HS as a simile of an eagle, in feminine terms. The verse 12 says YHWH alone did lead Israel, no other strange el with him Jeff Benner says this term alone means to be separated from a group, not a reference to one solitary. The verse 13 speaks the flint rock, a simile of the Father. SO here are three members of a divine family, but one el lead Israel out of Egypt. OR God exist as a TRINITY
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: But here it says Jesus created us, which elohiym empowered? How does this make sense? God exist as a TRINITY
Your idea of one god as three expressions, the He talking to the same He in another form, is not so simple a simile to fathom. The use of father and son is also confusing with your view. Only to you because you deny the TRINITY
God knows each and every being / person / insect on every planet of every galaxy of evey dimension possible – and God knew how many hairs or on each one of those beings head
But you think it is impossible for the God and Creator of the entire multi-verse cannot be in two places at the same time – because man can’t
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