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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2021 1:10:50 GMT -5
Zechariah 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Who is "resist him" referring to? the man Joshua or the messenger of GOD, YHWH? The Prosecutor is standing beside the angel of the Lord – to accuse Joshua The Prosecutor works for God – and here he is opposing Joshua
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Why we would have come to you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. Here the verse clearly says Satan opposes Paul's ministry, which is really God's ministry. 1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. It was the human authorities that hindered Paul and forbade him to speak to the Gentiles
Man acted as the satan against Paul
Revelation 20:10 ESV And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Why is the Opposer finally killed by GOD , if archons are friendly agents of GOD?
1- nice try - archons are friendly agents of GOD? Are termites and cockroaches friendly agents of God? Please provide scripture 2- Your definition of the devil – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6 I said I would not disagree The bane elohiym took on 3D physical form and fathered the Nephilim This was a sin against man and nature – Jude and 2 Peter In 3D form the archon are able to be killed – again the curse of physicality 3- The function of the archon is the trouble man (Gen 3:15) The function of the archon was a tool of ra to test God’s people After Rev 21 – no more testing – no more troubeling Therefore no more need for the archon 4- archon are made with some matter – there is zero evidence of matter continuing on after Rev 21 It is a spiritual Kingdom - and 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Seems to be Jesus came to destroy the work of the Opposer. Because the Opposer is a provider of sinning.
G264 - ἁμαρτάνω - properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Translates to at least 3 different Hebrew words in the LXX
Gen 4:7 - H2403 Gen 20:6 - H4480 Gen 39:9 - H2398 -
The First Archon chose self with his very first thought – correct And Jesus came so save man from making self choices
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. Correct – this is now the Kingdom of the archon Rev 21 – they are all gone
Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! Is all about a man Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issue And if you act like the devil – you are living in self – just as the devil is
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Why does the Opposer appear as an angel on earth, even as Jesus on earth in the last days, deceiving many upon the earth, if this is NOT opposing GOD, what is?
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. You have never answered the question – why is it a sin to obey God and help facilitate God’s Will?
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? Notice the Opposer opposes the function of salvation in humans, interferes directly with God saving man. DUH yester ra = self-preservation Yester tov says lay your life down for a complete stranger Ananias gave into yester ra greed – money – wealth – a worldly measure of wealth
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. The wicked get the same fate as the Opposer and His angels, since all these creatures OPPOSE GOD. DUH – you defined the devil as the leader of the bane elohiym – I did not disagree The bane elohiym sinned against man and nature once they were in 3D physical form
Revelation 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, The straight humans are in heaven, the crooked humans are all dead, and Satan is bound by GOD. Obviously because GOD opposes the Opposer.
YEP - Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Used like a tool to facilitate scripture
1 John 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
This means people who sin become children of the father of sin, this is a strange description the torah makes, but it is true. The opposing angel is called a father of sin. This means there are two "fathers" wanting to rule over mankind. Jesus called the Devil in John, a Father of lies, a murderer from the beginning.
One is a spiritual ruler – the God of heaven – the one True Creator One is the King of the physical world
Not two rulers in heaven in opposition against one another One the provider of yester tov (spiritual) and one the provider of yester ra (biology – world)
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; So there are angels that sin... this speaks volumes against all your Gnostic stuff doesn't it? AND – if you knew more scripture – it become obviouse that these “sinnig angels” are the bane eluhiym that sinned against man and nature – held in chains in the fourth heaven – awaiting to be recalled for use by the Lord – Rev 9
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. The Opposer opposes everything Jesus wants to do for humans. 1 Kings 22 – you have failed to show me why it is a sin to obey God – to help God facilitate God Will Some deceiving spirits work for the Lord – providing a function
Acts 13:10 And said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? Paul rebukes a human called (Ac 13:8) Elymas the sorcerer, but he doesn't rebuke just the human powers of evil, but the archons who intentionally makes crooked paths of the Lord. YEP – Paul rebuked a man And the archon have a function to perform – and they will keep performing it until Rev 20:10
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, And you say the archons do not rule over this world. What is this word here than, a myth? Again – let me say for the MILLIONTH time – this 3D physical world is the domain of the archon This is their kingdom – I have said this for years before I met you And you say the archons do not rule over this world – is this an honest statement?
Some say, like Strong's the word "archon" means " 758. arcwn archon, ar'-khone Search for 758 in KJV present participle of 757; a first (in rank or power):--chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
YES – shall I quote all your post denying this FACT Col 1:16 & Eph 6:12 archon = Principalities I even offered to call them Principalities from now on if it would help you understand
Matthew 4:1-11 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” Could a mere man command stones to be bread? no mention of this in Scripture. But GOD could do this. The Opposer was opposing Jesus claim to be GOD, so the temptations are not about man in Jesus, but the GOD of Jesus. Every Christian on the planet understands why Jesu the man had to be tempted as – or more – than any man – still you don’t understand why Satan proved yet again the divine nature of Jesus Christ – praise God and thank you satan
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” The first sin here is negating the command of GOD, by questioning it. Only of sin is defined as anything you want it to be – word man You come on strong – no polysemy – words can only mean one thing Yet – you prove other wises - for you sin means anything you need it to be to validate your doctrine
1 John 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. The whole world is ruled by the power of the evil one. AGAIN – this is the domain of the archon – this is their kingdom
1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan. For some have strayed after world – it’s true – wealth, power, and fame
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us. Notice the passage, the Opposer opposes GOD's work for man. YES Robert – the opposers here were the Jewish authorities – many times our satan is just another man
Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. ABSOLUTLY - a multitude of players – and some called archon by Paul
2 Corinthians 2:11 So that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs. YES! – yester ra wants us trapped here in this world of flesh – and fleshly pleasure
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. DUH – Rev 20:10
Matthew 13:39 And the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. YES – this is the archon job – to sidetrack man – to help man forget who he really is (spirit not biology)
Job 1:7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” Why is the angel now allowed to walk all over the earth, not just remain near one solitary tree? Because the entire of earth is ruled by this prince of earth. But this claim is false, because Jesus created humans sinless, and is the true provider of humans. Not a false provider who claims the humans who sin, as his. This is why the Opposer opposes Christ rescue of sinners.
DUH – I will type this very slowly so you can read it slowly This 3D physical world = the domain of the archon and has been sing Gen 1:2
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Accuser not prosecutor YES -= every other Bible study I have even been in satan was an accuser You are the only oposer that opposes the other oppose And yes – the job of a prosecutor is to accuse the accused
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? Witnesses are required to accuse a person of a crime. no witness came to accuse the woman Ac 23:30 And when it was told me how that the Jews laid wait for the man, I sent straightway to thee, and gave commandment to his accusers also to say before thee what they had against him. Farewell. The Jews prepare witnesses to accuse Paul at the trial. YES the Jews were the satan unto Paul - agreed
Ac 23:35 I will hear thee, said he, when thine accusers are also come. And he commanded him to be kept in Herod's judgment hall. Same idea, witnesses accuse a person of a crime. YES = as in Prosecutor However I get your point, prosecutor is not much different to an accuser. - Finally See what happens when you resd scripture instead of doctrine
Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. YES! – this is the job of the archon – to test – temp – in this world and the next
1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour YEP yester ra is always looking at the world – desire – lust – all very tempting You told me once you would not witness in a brothel – why? Answer – 1 Peter 5:8-9
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, Correct – when I speak to a UFO group – I use this verse a lot
Ephesians 4:27 And give no opportunity to the devil. Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Luke 8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. YES – we are all born with the Torah in our hearts – inside we all know And the job of the archon is to keep you focused on your own yester ra – keep you sidetracked – so that we don’t remember who we really are - spirit
Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” Who actually touches Job with RA, GOD or the OPPOSER? The text seems to suggest God does, but the message I get is the OPPOSER uses RA to touch Job, the Father of death, the father of lies, the father of ra, has to be this opposing angel. Job 1:12 all that he hath is in thy power; Who is the THY here, the angel. Who's in power, the angel, God is allowing the angel to do ra upon Job, because the angel requests this as a test/temptation.
Why does GOD agree to this temptation? The Opposing angel challenges GOD, that's why. The function of the accuser / prosecutor – Then God used the accuser as a tool to prove His point
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. Notice the promise of GOD restricts the opposer. Restains the opposer, Controls the opposer. Why? Because if left unrestrained, all humans would cease to be living... all would die, because the Opposer is the Author of Death, not living. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man – Correct and this is why Jesu had to be tempted in the wilderness – to prove this point GOD Controls the opposer. – absolutely – like an employee
You keep asking for verses that the angels who sin, also oppose GOD. and which of these verse state thast satan opposes God STILL WAITING
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2021 14:07:41 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Your trying hard to wrestle away the Scriptures" Isaiah 14:12
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! Is all about a man
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man "iysh" that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
I thought you had me here, why is an angel ALSO termed iysh?
H376 "The strong, over the nations, with active hands, pressed"
The Ancient Hebrew is suggesting a different English word, to me, other than 'man', I see 'servant' here.
H120 'adam' "The strong door flows"
This meaning is strange, what is flowing from the strong door of heaven? In other words, H127, the "The strong door flows. Behold the Being" suggests not ground ,but some Divine Being, is represented as this flow??
I would have to spend some years studying the ANcient Hebrew more. But seems to me to be something like the English word "quantum", something flowing from the doors of heaven.
This functional description thus can apply to GOD, angels and humans.
Do we have a Hebrew word only for humans?
Ge 1:27 So God <'elohiym> created <bara'> man <'adam> in his own image <tselem>, in the image <tselem> of God <'elohiym> created <bara'> he him; male <zakar> and female <n@qebah>
"The strong door flows" was created in two forms of flow, zakar and naqebah.
Are angels gender male or gender female with this terms? Not that I am aware of.
Now consider my study:-
Eze 1:9 Their wings <kanaph> were joined <chabar> one <'ishshah> to another <'achowth>; they turned <cabab> not when they went <yalak>; they went <yalak> every one <'iysh> straight <`eber> forward <paniym>.
This verse says cherub have functional aspects of iysh.
Eze 1:11 Eze 1:12 Eze 1:23
Eze 9:3 And the glory <kabowd> of the God <'elohiym> of Israel <Yisra'el> was gone up <`alah> from the cherub <k@ruwb>, whereupon he was, to the threshold <miphtan> of the house <bayith>. And he called <qara'> to the man <'iysh> clothed <labash> with linen <bad>, which had the writer's <caphar> inkhorn <qeceth> by his side <mothen>;
Eze 9:11 Eze 10:2
Eze 10:3 Now the cherubims <k@ruwb> stood <`amad> on the right side <yamiyn> of the house <bayith>, when the man <'iysh> went in <bow'>; and the cloud <`anan> filled <male'> the inner <p@niymiy> court <chatser>.
Eze 10:6 Eze 10:22 Eze 40:3 Eze 40:4 Eze 43:6
Also these other Hebrew descriptions of cherub:
Eze 10:8 ¶ And there appeared <ra'ah> in the cherubims <k@ruwb> the form <tabniyth> of a man's <'adam> hand <yad> under their wings <kanaph>.
Eze 10:14 Eze 1:5 Eze 1:8 Eze 1:10 Eze 1:26
So from this scroll alone, it seems to me ANGELS look like ADAM, function like ADAM, and are just as functionally the same as humans are.
This is why angels and humans are parallel together. They both sinned, they both have bodies, and they both function as humans do. They are differences as well.
----------------------- Hebrews 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issue And if you act like the devil – you are living in self – just as the devil is
R" You are contradicting the Scripture here.
the children share in flesh and blood he himself likewise partook of the same things
Jesus came in the same flesh and blood as humans have to destroy the death process Satan has inflicted upon humans in the flesh and blood.
It makes sense to me if DNA is divine code. Satan spoiled the divine code.
Jesus came in the same corrupt divine code, to die in that code, and replace the corrupt DNA code with his own uncorrupt DNA code, so we humans can have a full restoration.
D" You have never answered the question – why is it a sin to obey God and help facilitate God’s Will? R" I did. God asked a prophet to bake food using human dung.
The prophet refused. Why did the prophet obey the words of the Lord, Dave?
After all you say, if you obey the Lord, it's not a sin.
BUt the prophet refused to obey even God's words.
Why?
Because the torah words of the Lord says not to.
This tells me, the words of the law are above the spoken words of GOD, God does not change, and cannot speak differently to His laws. So GOD was testing the prophet to see if he would obey the law, not the words GOD speaks.
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2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; So there are angels that sin... this speaks volumes against all your Gnostic stuff doesn't it? AND – if you knew more scripture – it become obviouse that these “sinnig angels” are the bane eluhiym that sinned against man and nature – held in chains in the fourth heaven – awaiting to be recalled for use by the Lord – Rev 9
R" How convenient you wrestle away the Scriptures.
1 Kings 22 – you have failed to show me why it is a sin to obey God – to help God facilitate God Will Some deceiving spirits work for the Lord – providing a function
R" It doesn't say "deceiving spirits" it says GOD sent a "ra medium". This is the same Hebrew word for HS, not angels dressed as spirits, according to you.
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Only of sin is defined as anything you want it to be – word man You come on strong – no polysemy – words can only mean one thing Yet – you prove other wises - for you sin means anything you need it to be to validate your doctrine
R " I have been thinking of chata for a while and how ra fits in.
Ex 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Job 13:23 ¶ How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.
Ps 32:1 ¶ <<A Psalm of David, Maschil.>> Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. {A Psalm...: or, A Psalm of David giving instruction}
Ps 59:3 For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD.
Mic 3:8 ¶ But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
Mic 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? {body: Heb. belly}
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)
These verses relate pesha, and avon and chata and torah are linked together. But no mention of ra.
So missing implies we have transgressed the law, and made a sin-offering confession for that missing.
But where does ra, fit in?
The reason why I am thinking more of this, is the incredible error checking inside DNA code is already functioned with such looking for errors? There are dozens of complex systems that check, double check the DNA divine code for errors. This has to be designed by GOD for a functional reason, so implies ra (dysfunction) is not (trangression of law, guilt, or a sin-offering, nor technically missing God's power)
I would have to study this word, all 623+ verses to be sure.
Ge 39:9 There is none greater <gadowl> in this house <bayith> than I; neither <lo'> hath he kept back <chasak> any thing <m@uwmah> from me but thee, because <'aher> thou <'attah> art his wife <'ishshah>: how then can I do <`asah> this great <gadowl> wickedness <ra`>, and sin <chata'> against God <'elohiym>?
Joseph replies, how can I do this dysfunctional thing you ask and miss against GOD.
Does not imply dysfunctional is a sin per se, but the pathway of leading to missing and thus transgression.
1Ki 15:26 And he did <`asah> evil <ra`> in the sight <`ayin> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and walked <yalak> in the way <derek> of his father <'ab>, and in his sin <chatta'ah> wherewith he made Israel <Yisra'el> to sin <chata'>.
Does not imply dysfunctional is a sin per se, but the pathway of leading to missing and thus transgression. Perhaps the most clear on this new theme. Ra is a pathway, a direction one travels that leads to sin and thus sin-offerings.
1Ki 22:52 And he did <`asah> evil <ra`> in the sight <`ayin> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and walked <yalak> in the way <derek> of his father <'ab>, and in the way <derek> of his mother <'em>, and in the way <derek> of Jeroboam <Yarob`am> the son <ben> of Nebat <N@bat>, who made Israel <Yisra'el> to sin <chata'>:
Says the same thing.
2Ch 7:14 If my people <`am>, which are called <qara'> by my name <shem>, shall humble <kana`> themselves, and pray <palal>, and seek <baqash> my face <paniym>, and turn <shuwb> from their wicked <ra`> ways <derek>; then will I hear <shama`> from heaven <shamayim>, and will forgive <calach> their sin <chatta'ah>, and will heal <rapha'> their land <'erets>.
Suggest ra is a direction of travel, not sinning per se
Job 2:10 But he said <'amar> unto her, Thou speakest <dabar> as one <'echad> of the foolish women <nabal> speaketh <dabar>. What <gam>? shall we receive <qabal> good <towb> at the hand of God <'elohiym>, and shall we not receive <qabal> evil <ra`>? In all this did not Job <'Iyowb> sin <chata'> with his lips <saphah>.
Job sees both functional and dysfunctional coming from GOD.
While this new theme, may help me, it does not help you much Dave, because you seem to imply GOD actually kills and murderers people in the OT?, His strange act?
God cannot do pesha, or go against His own law, but I do see that GOD doing ra may not be a sinful thing, but again, I am not sure. I have some studies to do on this idea. There are over 623 verses, plus other verses on this theme.
I wish you would not mock SDA people, the SDA do not believe in the HS as feminine, and much of what I present here is hardly SDA, just my own studies, so please drop the SDA label. I do not like you mocking other religions, and they all deserve respect, including the Catholics. Many Catholics will be in heaven, saved by Jesus, ignorant of the system of the Masons who rule over the entire world of religions. ---------------
1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan. For some have strayed after world – it’s true – wealth, power, and fame R" Text doesn't say world Dave, it says Satan.
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us. Notice the passage, the Opposer opposes GOD's work for man. YES Robert – the opposers here were the Jewish authorities – many times our satan is just another man R" Actually the angels are described as adam and iysh, so yes angels do oppose humans just as many angels decided to oppose GOD by their sinning.
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. DUH – Rev 20:10
Present continuous tense in the context, not future context. We crush Satan NOW, all the time, under our feet. The verse implies.
D" And yes – the job of a prosecutor is to accuse the accused Does the accuser accuse sinners who sin happily with Satan? NO
Satan only accuses the sinners who wish to be saved by Jesus? Don't you get it?
D" And the job of the archon is to keep you focused on your own yester ra – keep you sidetracked – so that we don’t remember who we really are - spirit R" You keep thinking we humans are spirit? Not so. Jesus placed into mankind a divine code, the DNA carries that code. Why have another "thing" you term "spirit"?
D" and which of these verse state thast satan opposes God STILL WAITING R" you wrestle away the Scriptures...
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2021 6:48:28 GMT -5
Isaiah 14 – satanI understand that the Catechism of the Catholic Faith – drafted around the 4th century AD – recognizes a god of evil called satan – but I am not Catholic And your proof = the assumption – satan accuses man therefore that proves satan hates God The Jewish view – God is absolute = when satan accuses man he does so in service to God I find it amazing that you demand it is a requirement for man to believe in a god of evil – for salvation to occur -------------- outreachjudaism.org/who-is-satan/The Hebrew Scriptures record that the Almighty Himself placed both good and the evil into the world, Click here to listen to Rabbi Tovia Singer’s audio presentation, “Judaism and Christianity on Satan: Why We differ” in order that mankind would have the opportunity to exercise free will. The Torah states:
“See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15)
When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world:
“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.
These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching of the Almighty’s divine sovereign plan, which provides that every searching soul must confront evil, as well as good, in order to remain vigilant in one’s personal search for perfect spiritual balance. The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. For those committed to attaining a higher spiritual existence, the struggle toward a life of virtue is only possible with the existence of evil, which serves as a spiritual counterweight. In other words, righteousness cannot exist unless man is free to choose or reject evil.
Passages in Tanach like Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15 pose a monumental theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, as you state in your question, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God, and the embodiment of evil in this world. As you maintained in your question, God never created evil according Christian teachings; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan’s unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.
Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. In fact, this Christian notion that Satan, in an act of outright defiance, ceased to function as God had intended him to, suggests that God created something imperfect or defective.
For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.
Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible. It is worth noting that the Hebrew word for angel is malach, meaning “messenger.” The same is true for the English word angel, derived from the Greek word angelos, which also means “messenger.”
Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of God who carries out the divine will of the Almighty. There is not one example in the Jewish Scriptures where any angel, Satan included, ever opposes God’s will.
In essence, Satan is an agent of God, and has no free will or independent existence.
In no part of the Bible is this principle more evident than in the Book of Job, where Satan’s role is prominent. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears before the Almighty with a host of other angels. Satan suggests that Job’s righteousness was not fully tested. He argues that Job might lose his faith if he were confronted by personal pain and utter destitution. He proposes to God that Job serves Him simply because God protects him. Satan requested permission from God to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this petition; however, He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when testing Job. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.
God removes Job’s protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Job’s faith is challenged, and by the third chapter he begins to struggle. He questions his Maker as to why he was created and, in a moment of despair, wishes aloud that he had perished in his mother’s womb.
Despite his difficult circumstances, Job does not curse God, but rather, curses the day of his birth. And although he protests his plight and pleads for an explanation, he stops short of accusing God of injustice. Still, by the end of this unparalleled biblical narrative, Job’s virtue prevails over Satan’s unyielding blandishments.
Commenting on the Book of Job, the rabbis express sympathy for Satan’s difficult job, which was to “break the barrel but not spill any wine” (Talmud, Bava Basrah 16a).
While in Christian terms Job’s personal spiritual triumph is theologically impossible, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of God’s salvation program for mankind. In Deuteronomy 30:15, the Torah attests to this principle and in Isaiah 45:7, the prophet echoes this message when he declares that the Almighty Himself creates evil.
This biblical principle, however, was apparently too problematic for the Christian translators of the fundamentalist New International Version Bible. They clearly grasped that a Bible which asserts that God creates evil, calls into question Christendom’s rigid teachings on salvation.
How can the Church insist that man is totally depraved, when his God placed him in a world where he is free to choose good over evil? How can the Church hold to the doctrine of Total Depravity1 and Unconditional Election,2 when the Torah commands that man express his freewill? How can Christians maintain that God did not create evil when the Jewish Scriptures clearly state otherwise?
Understandably, the New International Version translators saw fit to alter the prophet’s words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “disaster” instead of correctly translating it as “bad” or “evil.” The New International Version Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read:
“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
The word “disaster” inserted by the New International Version is misleading and purposely ambiguous so that the uninformed reader could conclude that this word refers to natural disasters, such as typhoons, earthquakes and hurricanes. This dubious translation was deliberately forged to conceal the prophet’s original message. As mentioned above, the King James Version correctly translates this verse, and renders the Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “evil.”
One final point is in order. Christians often point to the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah as a biblical reference to support their teachings of the final and complete downfall of Satan, which brings to an end the long and otherwise successful career of this fallen angel. Castigating Babylonian leaders, the prophet states:
“How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star! You have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12 )
Christians argue that Isaiah’s mention of the fallen “morning star” refers to the ultimate demise of Satan at the end of time, when he will finally be cast into an eternal lake of fire, not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:10).
There are, however, two serious problems with this assertion. First, if Christians maintain that the “morning star” is a reference to Satan, how do they explain Revelation 22:16 where Jesus is called the “morning star” as well? Secondly, a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah reveals that the “morning star” spoken of in Isaiah 14:12 is referring to Nebuchadnezzar, the wicked King of Babylon, and not to Satan. The prophet explicitly names the king of Babylon as the subject of the prophecy.
“That thou shall take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How hath the oppressor ceased, the golden city ceased!’” (Isaiah 14:4)
Throughout this and the preceding chapter of Isaiah, the prophet foretells the rise and fall of this arrogant Babylonian king who would use his unbridled power to plunder Jerusalem and destroy its Temple but, ultimately, would suffer a cataclysmic downfall. In 14:12, Nebuchadnezzar is compared to the planet Venus whose light is still visible in the morning, yet vanishes with the rise of the sun. Like the light of Venus, Nebuchadnezzar’s reign shone brilliantly for a short time, yet, as the prophets foretold, it was eventually overshadowed by the nation of Israel whose light endured and outlived this arrogant king who tormented and exiled her.
Rabbi Tovia Singer
Total Depravity (also called absolute inability) is a Church teaching that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is a core part of a Protestant theological system which stresses the absolute futility of human action to attain salvation. This doctrine asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. Accordingly, this doctrine argues that man does not have genuine free will to choose God and faithfulness over sin and iniquity. This idea is contravened by every admonishment contained in the Jewish Scriptures, where God calls sinners to repent:
Therefore tell the people: “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Return to Me,’ declares the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the Lord Almighty.” (Zachariah 1:3)
“but if ye return unto Me, and keep My commandments and do them, though your outcasts were in the uttermost part of the heavens, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen, to cause My name to dwell there.” (Nehmiah 1:9)
In other words, according to the doctrine of Total Depravity, the repentance of the people of Nineveh and King David would have been impossible. ↩
Although the doctrine of Unconditional Election is drawn from the doctrines adopted by the Catholic Church Father Augustine (354-430), Protestants widely revere him as one of the theological fathers of Reformation due to his teaching on Christian salvation. Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo (present-day Annaba, Algeria), was among the most anti-Semitic of all the Church fathers.
Unconditional Election is a teaching which asserts that before God created the world, he elected to save some people to go to heaven. This election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which the Church teaches that God selected certain individuals to believe in Jesus. Those elected, receive mercy and will find Christianity irresistible, while those not elected, the reprobates, are sent to hell without condition. Thus, those who embrace this Church doctrine, hold that God chose to save specific people, regardless of their sins, merits, or any condition. This basically means, God’s act of saving is not based on what man can do or decide. Rather, man is selected by God without any conditions of man’s actions or deeds, but solely by God’s choosing.
It is difficult to imagine a Christian doctrine that is more alien and hostile to the clear, warm teachings of the prophets of Israel. Uplifting passages that oppose these Christian doctrines appear prominently in every book in Tanach. The message of the Jewish faith is clear: human volition plays the central role in salvation:
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.” (Joshua 24:15)
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:22) Sorry Robert – I do not believe in your god of evil No one believed in your god of evil until the Catholic church invented him Your proof argument = satan accuses man therefore it mean satan hates God is Catholic doctrine – not ahl scripture----------------------- Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issueR" You are contradicting the Scripture here. Jesus came in the same flesh and blood as humans have to destroy the death process Satan has inflicted upon humans in the flesh and blood. It makes sense to me if DNA is divine code. Satan spoiled the divine code. Jesus came in the same corrupt divine code, to die in that code, and replace the corrupt DNA code with his own uncorrupt DNA code, so we humans can have a full restoration.So – since time of Jesus no Christians has died a mortal death? If Jesus repairs your DNA – you will never die a mortal death – you become immortal Where are all these Christians? According to you there should be Christians at least 2000 years old now – because Jesus came to fix biological DNAAgain – let me say - We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issue------------- 2 Peter 2:4 So there are angels that sin... this speaks volumes against all your Gnostic stuff doesn't it? AND – if you knew more scripture – it become obviouse that these “sinnig angels” are the bane eluhiym that sinned against man and nature – held in chains in the fourth heaven – awaiting to be recalled for use by the Lord – Rev 9 R" How convenient you wrestle away the Scriptures.So Robert if all your evil satan angels are locked away – who is the evil satan angels ruling over you today If you say – some remain – I beg you to give me your ahl verse Because the scripture that supplements is the Book of Jubilees and Enoch – both inadmissible according to you1 Kings 22 – you have failed to show me why it is a sin to obey God – to help God facilitate God Will Some deceiving spirits work for the Lord – providing a function R" It doesn't say "deceiving spirits" it says GOD sent a "ra medium". This is the same Hebrew word for HS, not angels dressed as spirits, according to you.So your HS is a deceiving spirit – does your HS also oppose your God? Was the decieving serpent also your HS How about your cherub chate - was that also your HSAND - if angels are not spirits - then what are they - more of your DNA physical biology----------------- R " I have been thinking of chata for a while and how ra fits in. These verses relate pesha, and avon and chata and torah are linked together. But no mention of ra. So missing implies we have transgressed the law, and made a sin-offering confession for that missing. Correct – ra is not sin – ra it is just the movement away from God Correct – but sin is always ra – because sin is the CHOICE to deliberately move away from GodBut where does ra, fit in? The reason why I am thinking more of this, is the incredible error checking inside DNA code is already functioned with such looking for errors? There are dozens of complex systems that check, double check the DNA divine code for errors. This has to be designed by GOD for a functional reason, so implies ra (dysfunction) is not (trangression of law, guilt, or a sin-offering, nor technically missing God's power) WHAT? – I have no idea what point you are making Biology is mortal – biology is world – biology is fleshAgain – let me say - We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issueJoseph replies, how can I do this dysfunctional thing you ask and miss against GOD. Does not imply dysfunctional is a sin per se, but the pathway of leading to missing and thus transgression. 1Ki 15:26 Does not imply dysfunctional is a sin per se, but the pathway of leading to missing and thus transgression. Perhaps the most clear on this new theme. Ra is a pathway, a direction one travels that leads to sin and thus sin-offerings. Suggest ra is a direction of travel, not sinning per seCorrect – and the archon are self-centered and make the world attractive enough so that man chooses world instead of GodJob sees both functional and dysfunctional coming from GOD.DUH – Isaiah 45:7While this new theme, may help me, it does not help you much Dave, because you seem to imply GOD actually kills and murderers people in the OT?, His strange act? STOP DENYING SCRIPTURE - God is responsible for many deaths – all through the ahl This Feel Good God idea of the Catholics is not complete I wish you would not mock SDA people, I openly MOCK SDA teaching that God kingdom is divided against itself by a second god - a god of evil I mock all doctrine that deny that God is absolute I mock any religion that offers up a different God for you to believe in--------------- 1 Timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan. For some have strayed after world – it’s true – wealth, power, and fame R" Text doesn't say world Dave, it says Satan.What do you think it means – these people gather in satan church to worship satan You are sick with satan worshipRomans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. DUH – Rev 20:10 Present continuous tense in the context, not future context. We crush Satan NOW, all the time, under our feet. The verse implies.Rom 16:20 ὁ δὲ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης συντρίψει τὸν Σατανᾶν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας ὑμῶν ἐν τάχει. ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ μεθ᾿ ὑμῶν. G4937 – συντρίβω - From G4862 and the base of G5147; to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise. Συντριψει = Future tense, active voice, indicative, 3rd person singularSorry Robert – you are absolutely incorrectYou should learn to translate R" You keep thinking we humans are spirit? Not so.I feel so sad for you- you satan sure rules you to deny spiritualitySure Robert – religion is about a bunch of animals – biology only – no such thing as spirit So the idea of Christianity being a spiritual phenomenon is error It is only world and DNA of biology this is why you must do worship ritual every day – because you do not exist as spirit in spiritual communion – you choose to be just the animal and declare it is impossible to rise above it Yes – your satan worship is ERROR indeedJoh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Your stated goal by your SDA doctrine = only the grave Your doctrin MOCKS the idea of First FruitsRomans 8:26 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Ephesians 6:18 - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Jude 1:20 - But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Read More...) 1 Corinthians 14:15 - What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. John 4:24 - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. Romans 8:27 - And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. James 4:3 - Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts. John 15:7 - If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 1 Corinthians 14:19 - Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that [by my voice] I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:4 - He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Matthew 26:41 - Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak. 1 John 5:15 - And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. Philippians 4:6 - Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. Leviticus 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God. Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (Read More...) 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Ephesians 5:18 - And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; R" You keep thinking we humans are spirit? Not so.I feel so sad for you - your satan sure rules you to deny spirituality Just be the animal - biology is all there isYou will never convince me that God's kingdom was divided by the god of evilThe very idea is repugnantIt diminishes God and elevates satan to godhood - but that is the goal of the Catholic Edit To pollute and therefore dilute the One True God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2021 10:14:01 GMT -5
The ahl speaks to several different groups residing within the invisible heavens and here on earth
There is the Trinity – Only One God – experienced by man in two forms – invisible and visible – HS and Christ There are 9 to 10 levels of angelic beings Man’s home is in heaven
Then the ahl speaks of specific beings – satan and shedim Now Robert fully embraces satan as the god of evil – But - he totally ignores the shedim and Lillith – he just pretends they don’t exist – he does not know what to do with them so he overlooks them as irrelevant – as if any scripture was irrelevant
Two groups – satan and (shedim + Lillith) Jewish satan – is just Jewish satan – he is any being man or angelic used by God to accuse man This is the function of satan – this is the definition of satan – the accuser
Robert and the Catholics have an entire religion based on satan as the god of evil Jews and Gnostics do not – we have two groups 1- the satan that works for God – God’s prosecutor 2- the shedim fathered by Beelzebub – who are creatures made with some matter – all fathered by the same leader The Jewish shedim are not angels – they make trouble for man – they cause disease – and chaos
The only thing the Nag Hammadi Gnostic text provide is further definition of those shedim Jewish shedim = Gnostic Archon = Islamic Jinn = Catholic demons = Japanese Shades = Paul’s Principalities YES! – this group is very real YES! - This group causes man much grief YES! – Paul tells us to beware of this group – be on guard for this group
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
The Catholic doctrine of Fallen Angels lumps both groups together and places their satan god as their leader and turns them into an evil conservancy against God Himself
But scripture says Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
SINNING ANGELS Jude and 2nd Peter speak of sinning angels – agreed
Enoch, Jubilees, and Gnostic text say they are the bane elohiym – offspring of the First Archon They left their first estate – sure in Gen 1:2 when Rev 12:7 happened But - their sin was here on earth towards man and nature (both) What was this sin? We are not told – it is left for us to infer – you can assume almost anything If I had to pick – one specific DISOBEDIENCE it would be
Gen 1:21 Then God created … every living creature… according to their species, … according to their species - Gen 1:24 … according to their species… according to their species - Gen 1:25 … according to their species… according to their species… each according to its species.
Gen 6 is the sin of cross species breeding – Nephilim and chimeras
This is why they are held in chains in the 4th Heaven (Enoch) awaiting to be released again BY GOD – to serve GOD yet again in Rev 9 by again plaguing the people of earth
Lake of Fire Why aren’t the sinning angels – or the demons – or the archon – identified as being cast into the second death
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast
Only two are identified – the Beast/Dragon = the First Archon / Chief Archon And the DEVIL – who you identified as the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 4:07:05 GMT -5
And your proof = the assumption – satan accuses man therefore that proves satan hates God The Jewish view – God is absolute = when satan accuses man he does so in service to God
I find it amazing that you demand it is a requirement for man to believe in a god of evil – for salvation to occurWhat things you say are different views to mine, Dave. (1) satan accuses man therefore that proves satan hates God
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! How can a creature doing ra, also be doing good? Impossible according to this verse. (2) you demand it is a requirement for man to believe in a god of evil – for salvation to occur
Yasha means to rescue, salvation is a divine Being who rescues humans. Rescue implies us being rescued from some other strong authority. Your whole theology is about GOD creating ra on purpose, so GOD rescues humans from ra. Why would GOD create evil, so GOD goes to the trouble to rescue us from evil? Like the German professor says if GOD created evil, than worship in God is a fairy tale, worthless. " The Hebrew Scriptures record that the Almighty Himself placed both good and the evil into the world" What your Rabbi is saying is wrong. God creates ra, yes, so the presence of evil exists, otherwise it cannot normally exist. So why does ra come to exist, that normally is not allowed to exist, BECAUSE some angel wanted ra to exist, because the angel wanted to SIN. That's why. That is what the torah says. D" When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world:
“I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)
I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.
Dave, this is so wrong. I will spend the money to purchase some glass prisms and make the shadow experiments easier to view for you. You are so wrong over the natural explanation of umbra shadows and where they come from. Sure I read Scripture clearly as you do, but unlike you I do the mother nature experiments GOD intentionally placed in our world so I could understand the torah clearly. (1) To make umbra shadows (a ra affect) you require light (GOD's presence) (2) Normally under strong light you cannot make umbra shadows, only preumbra shadows. Try this yourself with a massive 750Watt light source. Shadows are in fact only made by relationships, GOD alone cannot make shadows of any kind. Humans or angels alone cannot make shadows of any kind. Shadows require relationships to make shadows seen. (3) Therefore RA is only seen under relationships of creatures to GOD. (4) When a creature moves away from GOD in relationship, AND possibly when GOD's light is diminished in brightness, only than do umbra shadows of death exist. Is this idiom, simile, term in the torah "shadows of death" yes. tsalmaveth H6757 written as one Hebrew word, from 6738 and 4194; Why is translated as a Hebrew construct state, when it's not. Both words have no space. It should be translated as " shadowry-death" Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk <yalak> through the valley <gay'> of the shadow of death <tsalmaveth>, I will fear <yare'> no evil <ra`> Notice the relationship here, to walk with GOD, in shadowry-death, I fear no ra. So where does this shadowry-death of ra come from? Ps 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death. 20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god; Here is a clue here, notice the term "al" is used to reference "tanniyn" Ex 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. Here is a clue here, is used to reference "tanniyn", God slays the serpent -------------- D" The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. For those committed to attaining a higher spiritual existence, the struggle toward a life of virtue is only possible with the existence of evil, which serves as a spiritual counterweight. In other words, righteousness cannot exist unless man is free to choose or reject evil.R" You do not need RA to know good. What a silly idea. The son who chose NOT to leave home, lacked nothing. So why do you present only the prodigal son experienced a higher plane of love by choosing to sin? What a silly idea? D" Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures.R" Really, is it perhaps Zoroastrianism is in fact following the true torah? The Chinese following shang-di (shadday) were the first supporters of GOD from 2400BC, it seems from the Ancient Hebrew pictographs in the Chinese pictographs, long before Abram came to exist? When did Zoroastrianism came to be? D" F or the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. R" First this violates this verse" Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! God is NOT going to create RA to make RA as part of His will to bring GOOD from humans. D" Satan is one of the many angels mentioned in the Bible. R correct. D" Throughout the Bible, an angel is a messenger of God who carries out the divine will of the Almighty. There is not one example in the Jewish Scriptures where any angel, Satan included, ever opposes God’s will. R" You're saying the opponents in a tennis match are friendly to one another after the tennis match is over? Can friends who are opposes on the tennis court live happily as friends off the tennis court? This is an oxymoron. Prosecutors are friendly in the court bar because they have no care or personal interest in the crime of the criminal, But an accuser is different. Accusers do help you to sin, by doing sin themselves do have personal interests in you remaining a sinner with them. Would Baalim and GOD who are both opposers, be also friends in heaven? Hardly, no. Would GOD allow any sinner to live in heaven with the sinless ? no. Any sinner who sins, by defintion is opposing GOD and excludes themselves from heaven. The difference between umbra shadows of death and pre-umbra shadows not unto death, is the distance of the relationship to GOD. Some shadows GOD's light can cover. Some shadows GOD's light cannot cover, so you are opposing GOD in this relationship. SO not every sin you do is automatically opposing GOD, because God is mercy, graceful and kind and overlook many mistakes we do daily. D" In essence, Satan is an agent of God, and has no free will or independent existence.R that is not true Dave. Why did Jesus call Satan a murderer from the beginning? This implies the angel transgressed the royal law, from which the term murderer comes from. Scripture also says the cherub did chata, so can choose to sin, and thus transgress the royal law, so something is wrong with you reading torah. Also Ezekiel describes angels as iysh and also as adam, the same material functions humans have. D" In no part of the Bible is this principle more evident than in the Book of Job, where Satan’s role is prominent. In the first chapter of Job, Satan appears before the Almighty with a host of other angels. Satan suggests that Job’s righteousness was not fully tested. He argues that Job might lose his faith if he were confronted by personal pain and utter destitution. He proposes to God that Job serves Him simply because God protects him. Satan requested permission from God to test Job’s virtue. The Almighty grants this petition; however, He meticulously outlines for Satan what he may and may not do when testing Job. Satan obediently follows his Creator’s instructions.
God removes Job’s protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Job’s faith is challenged, and by the third chapter he begins to struggle. R" How you are blind to the story of Job. Job 1:1 ¶ There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? What kind of person was JOB? certainly perfect, fearing ra, but what also was JOB? Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Job became a bane elohiym, as the torah says. These children are blameless and harmless, and shine as lights in the world. Would the forces of evil normally prevent the bane of elohiym from being loyal to GOD? Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, Some bane elohiym forake being blameless and harmless, and shinning as lights in the world, decided to marry the children woman of Cain's line, rather than remain under Seth's line. SO Job was one of bane elohiym, blameless and harmless, shinning as light in the world of darkness, where the forces of evil caused humans to sin and rebel against GOD. What happens normally when a sinner decides to be rescued from the forces of evil? Read the entire PS 51 of David. Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 30, talks of both the rebellious and the true children of GOD A supporter of GOD gets a hedge of protection from the evil one, hence Satan was unable to do bad things to Job, because Job was completely supporting GOD. Does Satan normally attack people seeking salvation? Yes indeed, making your Christian walk with GOD worse than if you have not chosen to be with GOD. This difference alone tells you the Opposer hates you choosing GOD, and therefore the Opposer opposes GOD. However once you are completely in GOD, Satan cannot act your stand with GOD. Jacob's trouble is a simile of Job's experience, a prelude to the time of trouble in the end of time. ------------------------------------------------------------ D" Understandably, the New International Version translators saw fit to alter the prophet’s words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “disaster” instead of correctly translating it as “bad” or “evil.” The New International Version Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read:
“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.”
The word “disaster” inserted by the New International Version is misleading and purposely ambiguous so that the uninformed reader could conclude that this word refers to natural disasters, such as typhoons, earthquakes and hurricanes. This dubious translation was deliberately forged to conceal the prophet’s original message. As mentioned above, the King James Version correctly translates this verse, and renders the Hebrew word רָע (rah) as “evil.”Why not follow Jeff Benner's idea that ra means dysfunction, and leave the matter at that ? I can't stand the NIV translation most times, it is full of intentional errors, especially on the deity of Christ. D" Total Depravity (also called absolute inability) from the Augustinian concept of original sin. the doctrine of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election is a teaching
R" Big words, sorry do not understand D" Sorry Robert – I do not believe in your god of evil “And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.” (Joshua 24:15)
R" OK, why do you quote this verse? Who are the gods of the Amorities than? some myth I assume? not some god of evil? D" If Jesus repairs your DNA – you will never die a mortal death – you become immortal Where are all these Christians? According to you there should be Christians at least 2000 years old now – because Jesus came to fix biological DNAR" correct. So why arn't they living now? 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Obviously the changes to the DNA begins at salvation, but is not complete until the last trumpet sound for most of us, some like Enoch and Elijah did walk right into heaven in the same restored DNA and kept on living, in their flesh bodies as we do on earth. And for the 144,000, these people do have their DNA fully restored, and walk into heaven as Enoch and Elijah did, without seeing death. D" Again – let me say - We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issueR" Everything in the torah has a literal meaning, with spiritual application. Sorry it's about flesh and blood, not some spirit body as you claim. D" So Robert if all your evil satan angels are locked away – who is the evil satan angels ruling over you today If you say – some remain – I beg you to give me your ahl verse Because the scripture that supplements is the Book of Jubilees and Enoch – both inadmissible according to you
R" some angels who sin are not chained on the earth, and the chief angel who sinned first is their commander in the army of sinning angels. Mr 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. Not all shedim devil angels that sin, are locked into the Abyss. Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? (KJV) D" So your HS is a deceiving spirit – does your HS also oppose your God? Was the decieving serpent also your HS How about your cherub chate - was that also your HS
R" You raise an interesting problem Dave. Hard to figure out. Jg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. This torah teaching best explains the problem of the medium functions. Since the Hebrew word ruwach means medium, the only way I can translate this verse is But the holy medium of YHWH departed from Saul and so a dysfunctional medium from YHWH troubled Saul. This means the medium, administrates the flow of functional or dysfunctional flows over people. But the verse does not explain WHOM is the flow of function or dysfunction? Only that YHWH controls the flow and the MEDIUM administrates the flow. You have assumed that YHWH is the author of the flow, and I say NO. Jesus clearly explains the strong authority behind the flow of ra and where the ra flow come from. Satan is the Provider of Lies, a murderer from the beginning. John 8. This tells us many things. Angels transgress royal law, hence are called murderers. Angels sin. One angel is a father of sin. D" Correct – ra is not sin – ra it is just the movement away from God Correct – but sin is always ra – bR" I can live with this idea, it seems OK for now. D" WHAT? – I have no idea what point you are making Biology is mortal – biology is world – biology is flesh
R" the biology of our body has complex error checking built into it, must have been placed there before Adam sinned. God foreknew of Adam's sinning and planned the biology of the DNA for this possibility. Therefore designing for future ra to occur, is not in inself a sin. God's love was planning for ra to occur should it occur and thus the error checking of the divine code, to keep the code pure from ra. D" I mock all doctrine that deny that God is absolute I mock any religion that offers up a different God for you to believe inR" Why do you have GOD creating a flawed world than? that means less than perfect, meaning GOD is not so absolute? A different god for you to believe in? I see. Why than did Jesus say to the Jews, ye are children of the Devil, a different father from the Father in heaven? D" What do you think it means – these people gather in satan church to worship satan
Mt 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. One day coming soon Jesus will appear on earth healing the disease, bringing down lightning and deceiving millions... during the Sunday global issue at the end of time.... During the second coming of Jesus, His feet do not touch the earth... the torah says... So this Jesus who appears is antiChrist. D" Sorry Robert – you are absolutely incorrect You should learn to translateR" Oh sorry Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon in the future, crush Satan under your feet. D" So the idea of Christianity being a spiritual phenomenon is errorR" perhaps Jesus said unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, ye cannot live forever? What does this mean? Jews saw it as a hard saying? Nicodemus said how can a man enter the womb a second time? So what womb are we talking about? a spirtual one, or a literal one? Literal of course. Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Notice the development of the character in the womb of compassion by GOD via the HS. It's literal, not spiritual, just as literal as when GOD called the animals into existence. D" The very idea is repugnantR" I see, so an angel never sinned than? D" But - he totally ignores the shedim and Lillith – he just pretends they don’t exist –Torah does not speak of lillith, few references, less than 2. Why do you gloat over the torah not speaking so much of a Hebrew word? If nothing much is said, don't think of this. D" But scripture says Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.R" SO the Lord created all creatures, but not created SIN. Yes created RA, so the SIN could be observed. Where is SIN come from? Not from GOD. D" S INNING ANGELS Jude and 2nd Peter speak of sinning angels – agreedR' OK so why don't you follow the theme correctly than? Jews say angels cannot sin, you say angels can sin? What do you believe Dave? D" They left their first estate – sure in Gen 1:2 when Rev 12:7 happened But - their sin was here on earth towards man and nature (both) What was this sin? We are not told – it is left for us to infer – you can assume almost anything If I had to pick – one specific DISOBEDIENCE it would be
Gen 1:21 Then God created … every living creature… according to their species, … according to their species - Gen 1:24 … according to their species… according to their species - Gen 1:25 … according to their species… according to their species… each according to its species.
Gen 6 is the sin of cross species breeding – Nephilim and chimeras
Rob replies" What you can't think of any sins the angels are specifically doing? Well Jesus names at least three sins of the angels that sinned... Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the sinning-angel, and the lusts of your sinning-angel ye will do. This sinning-angel was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When this sinning-angel speaketh a lie, this sinning-angel speaketh of his own: for this sinning-angel is a liar, and the father of all forms of sinning. No mention sexual depravity here. What sins are listed (1) have no other powers before my face (2) I am my own covering (3) I am my own power (lies) (4) Father of all forms of sinning, including murder and death by murder. D" Why aren’t the sinning angels – or the demons – or the archon – identified as being cast into the second deathRe 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. All the angels that sin are finally bound with Satan, the chief sinning angel for 1000 years. Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Re 20:8 And shall go out to (suggests more than he) Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, (is this one shedim or all the shedim, for we are many, they said) Shalom SHabbat
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Post by Dave on Mar 6, 2021 17:39:30 GMT -5
And your proof = the assumption – satan accuses man therefore that proves satan hates God The Jewish view – God is absolute = when satan accuses man he does so in service to God I find it amazing that you demand it is a requirement for man to believe in a god of evil – for salvation to occur What things you say are different views to mine, Dave. (1) satan accuses man therefore that proves satan hates God Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!How can a creature doing ra, also be doing good? Impossible according to this verse. WOW – Book of Job impossible according to you WOW – verses like 1st Chr 21:1 – are impossible according to you WOW – the angel of Death that laid waste to the Egyptians is impossible to youSorry Robert – precept upon precept – one line of scripture cannot rewrite the Torah teachingsEither the Torah is in error – contradictory – or you fail to grasp its meaningBut then again you do not have to place this verse amoung the total ahl – you pluck it out and use it singularly to build a man-made religion called Catholic doctrine (2) you demand it is a requirement for man to believe in a god of evil – for salvation to occur Yasha means to rescue, salvation is a divine Being who rescues humans. Rescue implies us being rescued from some other strong authority.Absolutely – and this other strong authority is the WORLD – the home of 3D physicality and yester ra The home of the archon because (Gen 1:1 earth is their kingdom)Your whole theology is about GOD creating ra on purpose, so GOD rescues humans from ra.Point – God created the ra – therefore he did it on purposeIt it not my personal theology – it is simple Judaism 101Why would GOD create evil, so GOD goes to the trouble to rescue us from evil?Point – Jews don’t usually question God YOU CLAIM IT A SIN when performed by the serpent in Gen 3As a Christian – I was taught in church that God created man for a loving and compassionate relationship As a Gnostic – I more clearly understand the Prodigal Son The Son that chose to perform his God give commission – witness to this world This is why the Rabbi said – Eve knew when she had to do – she stepped down into this world to witness But she was the first – who would she witness to Answer – the archon have always been here – before Eve Answer - we are in full view to all the heavens – this is a large audience (more than you are willing to admit) The Prodigal Son – is the Son that remembers the Father and witnesses to the world the Love he has found again by returning to the Father The Father rewards the Son – more than the son that stayed home – WHY? The Father knows – the Son returned of his own FREE WILL – (and that is the point of Free Will) And the Son did his mission on earth – tried in some way to complete his commission – big or small all = reward Like the German professor says if GOD created evil, than worship in God is a fairy tale, worthless.This is the legacy of Feel Good Catholicism IF God exist – why doesn’t he fix all the ra in the world – He must be weak / uncaring / or non-existant "The Hebrew Scriptures record that the Almighty Himself placed both good and the evil into the world" What your Rabbi is saying is wrong.Rabbi Singer quoted scripture – you offer your feel good controversy doctrineGod creates ra, yes, so the presence of evil exists, otherwise it cannot normally exist.I am glad you now agree with Rabbi Singer and scriptureSo why does ra come to exist, that normally is not allowed to exist, BECAUSE some angel wanted ra to exist, because the angel wanted to SIN. That's why.And here it comes – your excuse – two words taken out of context by Rome in the 4th Century AD1- Jesus said He did not come to change anything of the Torah Therefore Catholicism demands anything Jewish must be errorSynod of Laodicea - Canon 29Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. Followed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church PART ONE - THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO - THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER ONE - I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ARTICLE I - "I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH" Paragraph 7. The Fall I. WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELSThat is what the torah says.If this is what the Torah says – the Jews would have figured it out 3500 years ago NO Robert – all of your doctrine comes straight out of Rome and the Catholic ChurchD" When describing God’s creation plan, the prophet Isaiah reports that the Almighty created evil in the world: (Isaiah 45:7) I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith. Dave, this is so wrong. I will not and do not deny scripture as written And I have no external need to twist it to make it fit any doctrine(1) To make umbra shadows (a ra affect) you require light (GOD's presence) Is this idiom, simile, term in the torah "shadows of death" yes. Notice the relationship here, to walk with GOD, in shadowry-death, I fear no ra. So where does this shadowry-death of ra come from?1- because man fails to obey God – as Eve did – as Adam did – as every man born into the land of yester ra doesRom 6:23 For sin’s payment is death, but God’s gracious gift is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Lord. So where does this shadowry-death of ra come from? Here is a clue here, is used to reference "tanniyn", God slays the serpent1- Stop blaming sin upon another source – satan made me do it is a cop-out2- sometimes deceiving spirits work for the Lord as in 1 Kings 22 – but you have to deny that scripture I will not and do not deny scripture as written And I have no external need to twist it to make it fit any doctrine
-------------- D" The Almighty’s gift of freewill to humanity is what separates us from His other creations. R" You do not need RA to know good. What a silly idea.You must have two options for choice to exist Your argument that yester ra did not exist until after Adam chose it is STUPIDThe son who chose NOT to leave home, lacked nothing. Except the REWAD of the FatherSo why do you present only the prodigal son experienced a higher plane of love by choosing to OVERCOME sin? What a silly idea? - DUH Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Jas 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all without hesitation and without reproach; and it will be given to him. Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, without any doubting—for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 2Co 6:3 We give no cause for offense in anything, so that our ministry may not be blamed. 2Co 6:4 But as God’s servants, we are commending ourselves in every way—in great endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 2Co 6:5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in riots, in troubles, in sleeplessness, in hunger; 2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. Scripture says – our trials make us stronger – because we need to depend upon the Lord more and more And this new strength helps us in our COMMISSION (Jer1:5) so that our ministry may not be blamed do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.D" Although this well-known Christian doctrine has much in common with the pagan Zoroastrian Persian dualism from which it spawned, it is completely alien to the teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. R" Really, is it perhaps Zoroastrianism is in fact following the true torah? When did Zoroastrianism came to be? Really – you want to be a scripture expert – yet have never looked at historyAll of this comes from the inter-testament period – between the ahl and the aglDuring the time of the Maccabees that you have never looked at Tammuz - Dec 25th Easter Sunday with easter eggs and ham dinners Socrates dies in public forum unafraid – because death is not the end – it is the transition to spirit Mithras – was born of a virgin – preached at age 12 – had a ministry at age 30 – died upon a tree and was resurrected Zoraster – was given the revelation in the fire that still burn to this day in Iran (religious dedication) Two gods – one of good and one of evil locked in eternal conflict (Great Controversy) And man must always choose which god to follow (sound just like you)Both of these ‘religions’ dominated the Roman world in equal measure with the ‘other gods’ of Olympus Roman coins at the time of the Council of Nicaea had Constantine on one side and Mithras on the other This was the religion of the Gentile during the formation of the HOLY ROMAN CHURCH And this is why Roman Catholics adopted pagan themes into Messianic JudaismThis is why the First Christians (Messianic Jews of the Nag Hammadi) had to be eliminated wherever found and their literature placed on a list of DO NOT READ (Roman Index) and it is to be burned wherever foundD" For the Jewish faith, Satan’s purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. R" First this violates this verse"Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! God is NOT going to create RA to make RA as part of His will to bring GOOD from humans.Point – God created the ra – therefore he did it on purpose It it not my personal theology – it is simple Judaism 101 I will not and do not deny scripture as written And I have no external need to twist it to make it fit any doctrineProsecutors are friendly in the court bar because they have no care or personal interest in the crime of the criminal, But an accuser is different. Accusers do help you to sin, by doing sin themselves do have personal interests in you remaining a sinner with them. Your confusion comes from denying the archonEverything is satan to you – because you have swallowed Catholic doctrine 1- satan is the accuser / prosecutor 2- the archon are the enemy spoke about in Eph 6:12 Two entirely different groups with entirely roles to play within creationWould GOD allow any sinner to live in heaven with the sinless ? no.And this is the job of satan the prosecutor to keep the sinner out – accusing them of all their sin the court of God’s judgmentAny sinner who sins, by defintion is opposing GOD Now you have another polysemy definition for a ‘one word only man’SO not every sin you do is automatically opposing GODYou just declared it was the very definition!D" In essence, Satan is an agent of God, and has no free will or independent existence. R that is not true Dave.I have been begging for that verse – where is itGen 1:21 Then God created … every living creature… according to their species, … according to their species - Gen 1:24 … according to their species… according to their species - Gen 1:25 … according to their species… according to their species… each according to its species. Each creature was designed for a purpose – to serve a role within God’s creation No such thing as EVOLUTION of any kind – no one ever left there God given assignments Cows do not change into pigs – NEVER Angels – created to serve and praise – NEVER changed into the shedim described by King SolomonWhy did Jesus call Satan a murderer from the beginning?I copied and pasted you sentence into google – all that came up was Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil,You defined the devil as the leader of the bane elohiym archon You mix two groups together – Jom 8:44 – Cor 1:16 and Eph 6:12 say absolutely nothing of your satan godAlso Ezekiel describes angels as iysh and also as adam, the same material functions humans have.The entire passage is about man You assume the rest to fit your doctrineBecause you have a religion built around two words taken out of context of 3 chapters in a row and 83 total verses about the King Of Tyre God removes Job’s protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, children, and his physical health in order to tempt Job to curse God. Job’s faith is challenged, and by the third chapter he begins to struggle. R" How you are blind to the story of Job.So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD? Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture? And your answer is Read the entire PS 51 of David. Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 30, talks of both the rebellious and the true children of GODWHY – when all I have to do is latch onto two words a build an entire religion around themDoes Satan normally attack people seeking salvation? Yes indeed, making your Christian walk with GOD worse than if you have not chosen to be with GOD. This difference alone tells you the Opposer hates you choosing GOD, and therefore the Opposer opposes GOD. DUH – if you are already lost to the WORLD of archon – the archon do not have to bother with you Only when you become pious – do you recognized the archon for who they are and the Contest become personal Eph 6 ------------------------------------------------------------ D" Total Depravity (also called absolute inability) from the Augustinian concept of original sin. the doctrine of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election is a teaching R" Big words, sorry do not understandYou have preached both these Catholic themes to me – Now you admit - you do not understand what you preachD" Sorry Robert – I do not believe in your god of evil “And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.” (Joshua 24:15) R" OK, why do you quote this verse? Who are the gods of the Amorities than? some myth I assume? not some god of evil?DUH – really Robert are you so dense – they are archon – just like Gen 6Are they gods of evil? Emperor Ito led Japan into WWII – was he evil or just a delusional man Caesar claimed to be a god – was he evil or just a delusional man Both The King of Tyre and the King of Babylon – both thought they were hot shit – but they were just delusional men The archon – desire worship – it feeds selfThe archon desired human sacrifice – especially children – molech / baal When these gods were displaced from the Levant they next appeared in Carthage When Carthage fell – these same gods appeared in the Americans By 1600 the Inca were sacrificing as many as 20,000 babies to their gods per year D" If Jesus repairs your DNA – you will never die a mortal death – you become immortal Where are all these Christians? According to you there should be Christians at least 2000 years old now – because Jesus came to fix biological DNA R" correct. So why arn't they living now?They are in heaven as the first fruits – or in proportional punishment awaiting the First resurrection Because it has nothing to do with biology – only spirit1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. D" Again – let me say - We are not talking about flesh and bone It is a spiritual death that is of issue R" some angels who sin are not chained on the earth, and the chief angel who sinned first is their commander in the army of sinning angels.So now your favorite verses of Jude 1:6 and 2nd Peter 2:4 must be in error The sinning angels are not chained up in a prison – they are out bothering man todayD" So your HS is a deceiving spirit – does your HS also oppose your God? Was the decieving serpent also your HS How about your cherub chate - was that also your HS R" You raise an interesting problem Dave. Hard to figure out.EASY for Jewish theology HS = God Serpent = an archon being 1 King 22 speaks about angelic spirits All different and independent beings – each created separately and differently You deny spirit – therefore you are trapped by your own doctrineJg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. This torah teaching best explains the problem of the medium functions. According to your teaching to me When God withdrawls His medium – Saul should have fallen dead in his tracks
Now you present yet a different doctrine – where is the consistence of your doctrine Mr Flip FlopWhen God withdrew His spirit – Saul lost his COMMUNION with God nothing more Saul did not fall dead – Saul’s soul/spirit was still intact And the ra spirit is not from your satan – it is from my God Satan is the Provider of Lies, a murderer from the beginning. John 8. This tells us many things.Angels transgress royal law, hence are called murderers. Angels sin. One angel is a father of sin. Just did a search – number of time satan appears in John 8 = ZEROWhy than did Jesus say to the Jews, ye are children of the Devil, a different father from the Father in heaven?1 is the Creator in heaven and 1 is WORLDNot the same level – the devil is an archon of this world - and the world is a different god (small g) and the One True Creator God (capital G) D" So the idea of Christianity being a spiritual phenomenon is error R" perhapsBLASTOPHMY – something a satan worshiper would say not consistent with Judaism or Gnosticism or 99% of ChristianityJesus said unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, ye cannot live forever? Wat does this mean? Jews saw it as a hard saying?The Gospel of Philip - The Nag Hammadi LibrarySome are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, (sounds just like you) and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. Christianity is 100% spiritualany belief that teaches otherwises - MISSESNicodemus said how can a man enter the womb a second time? So what womb are we talking about? a spirtual one, or a literal one? Literal of course.Let know how that works out for you crawling back into a physical biological womb Send me a post card from the insidePs 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Notice the development of the character in the womb of compassion by GOD via the HS. It's literal, not spiritual, just as literal as when GOD called the animals into existence. Funny – all it talks about is spiritD" The very idea is repugnant R" I see, so an angel never sinned than?Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. Man is the origin of sin D" But - he totally ignores the shedim – he just pretends they don’t exist – Torah does not speak of shedim, Error few references, less than 2. Why do you gloat over the torah not speaking so much of a Hebrew word? If nothing much is said, don't think of this. So you admit – you are allowed to deny specific scripture you do not like And you think it wrong to build any doctrine out of just a few words – except cherub chataD" SINNING ANGELS Jude and 2nd Peter speak of sinning angels – agreed R' OK so why don't you follow the theme correctly than? Jews say angels cannot sin, you say angels can sin? What do you believe Dave?I believe this passage is all about the bane elohiym that committed sins against man and nature as scripture says Enoch tells us that they are held in chains in the 4th heaven awaiting to be released again by God in Rev 9 Coptic Jubilees – tells us that upon satan’s request – 10% were allowed to remain to be used as tools by satanNo this does not prove satan is a sinning angel No this does not prove these bane elohiym – or your satan - hates God It only proves that the archon are used as tools – by God to facilitate God’s Will or by satan to facilitate God’s will
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2021 17:19:24 GMT -5
WOW – Book of Job impossible according to you WOW – verses like 1st Chr 21:1 – are impossible according to you WOW – the angel of Death that laid waste to the Egyptians is impossible to you
Sorry Robert – precept upon precept – one line of scripture cannot rewrite the Torah teachings Either the Torah is in error – contradictory – or you fail to grasp its meaning But then again you do not have to place this verse amoung the total ahl – you pluck it out and use it singularly to build a man-made religion called Catholic doctrine Rob replies: I do not do such a thing. You do, Gordon does too. You have yet to show me a single torah verse that disagrees with my view. Sure I can show you a verse or two I can't explain, but not ever found one I cannot explain, even ask GOD many times for answers, and these answers come.
But I showed you, cherub chata. You ignore this one verse.
But than you seem to agree that angels did sin, but only the archon God created with intentional self, who fathered angels who chose to have sex with woman, creating giant demigod like humanoid creatures. These ideas are NOT found in torah, only in Gnostic writings.
You agree many Gnostic writings are weird, false and misleading, so you pick and choose the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't like.
I do not do this with the torah. One must embrace the verses, all of them, on a particular theme.
The Gordon ignores the 6 verses on elohiym, he doesn't like, so he picks and chooses which Hebrew verses he likes and ignores the Hebrew verses he doesn't like. You do the same.
However, I don't. I embrace all the verses for any theme. I gave you satisfactory answers for the verses you quoted to me. The angel of death that killed the Egyptians, wasn't an angel at all.
Ex 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer "shachath" to come in unto your houses to smite you.
The language suggests YHWH follows the destroyer to make sure some people are not destroyed by the destroyer??
Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
Here seems the lion is a simile of a destroyer?
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
This verse cross references "destroyer "shachath" " so it seems to me, that the naraph is a simile of the destroyer, also termed snake and lion, and these were examples of a future event, but happened in the OT times as a 'figure' or 'type' (not sure what word to use?).
Ge 6:11 ¶ The earth <'erets> also was corrupt <shachath> before <paniym> God <'elohiym>, and the earth <'erets> was filled <male'> with violence <chamac>.
SO in a sense SIN destroys the earth, and functions as a DESTROYER.
Isa 1:4 Ah <howy> sinful <chata'> nation <gowy>, a people <`am> laden <kabed> with iniquity <`avon>, a seed <zera`> of evildoers <ra`a`>, children <ben> that are corrupters <shachath>:
This verse is confirming the same idea.
Jer 51:1 ¶ Thus saith <'amar> the LORD <Y@hovah>; Behold, I will raise up <`uwr> against Babylon <Babel>, and against them that dwell <yashab> in the midst <leb> of them that rise up <quwm> against me, a destroying <shachath> wind <ruwach>;
Here is a massive clue to the identity of the destroyer...
The medium functions as a destroying medium.
This problem brings us to WHOM does the destroying though, because a medium only carries the flow of power from something else as a Being.
Mediums are only administrators of flow, conduits for the flow, mediums are never sources of the flow, by definition would cease being a medium.
For example, wind is never a source of power. Wind is just the affects of the air moving in a media of air, empowered by gradients of energy differences between air cells. It is the energy gradients that empower the air, that causes the flow, that the atmosphere functions as a medium to allow the wind to demonstrate an affect.
Therefore ruwach, as a simile of wind, has the meaning of 'medium' for all verses of context, without exception.
So WHOM is the source of the flow of RA, that the medium carries or administrates:
1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit <ruwach> of the LORD <Y@hovah> departed <cuwr> from Saul <Sha'uwl>, and an evil <ra`> spirit <ruwach> from the LORD <Y@hovah> troubled <ba`ath> him.
Here is a massive clue to explaining this:
The Medium functioning for YHWH departed from Saul, and a dysfunctional medium of YHWH troubled Saul (instead ).
What is happening here is YHWH is the only true relationships we are allowed to have. But if a person rejects YHWH, than YHWH allows His powers to be rejected, and another flow of powers is allowed to take YHWH's powers. But YHWH is always in control of the relationship and the ra flow, when you decide to reject YHWH.
So where does the actual flow of ra come from? Does it also flow from YHWH or some other provider?
The clues of the flow are given in the above verses, saraph, serpents, lions.
The devil is functional described as a saraph cherub, with iyish functions, as a simile of natural serpent creatures, as well as lions.
So it is my understanding that the strange act of GOD is simply allowing the Father of Lies, the Father of Death, who was a Murderer from the beginning, to do what He loves to do, destroy, after all GOD is a provider of living, not one who ends livings.
The Hebrew writes the functions as administrated by GOD, and this is correct, Mediums are administrated by God, but medium also make virtual images, meaning they can allow ra into the world, without GOD himself being the source of that ra.
D" Either the Torah is in error – contradictory – or you fail to grasp its meaning R" No the torah is not in error.
The shadow experiments easily explain the umbra shadows and where they come from. Not from God alone. Not from you alone. But from relationships gone wrong. And you alone are responsible for that ra relationship to God, not God, so the SIN problem lies with you.
D" Absolutely – and this other strong authority is the WORLD – the home of 3D physicality and yester ra The home of the archon because (Gen 1:1 earth is their kingdom) R" you admit the archon is a kingdom, and they are a strong authority, pretending to rule over man, why is it so hard to accept my view of the torah?
Dave agrees" Your whole theology is about GOD creating ra on purpose, so GOD rescues humans from ra. D" Point – God created the ra – therefore he did it on purpose It it not my personal theology – it is simple Judaism 101
R" Why would GOD create evil, so GOD goes to the trouble to rescue us from evil?
D" Point – Jews don’t usually question God YOU CLAIM IT A SIN when performed by the serpent in Gen 3
Rob replies" Yes the SIN problem is a big deal to GOD especially when angels Sinned long before man existed. Man was created in fact to deal with the sin problem of these angels. You do not understand this idea at all.
D" This is why the Rabbi said – Eve knew when she had to do – she stepped down into this world to witness But she was the first – who would she witness to Answer – the archon have always been here – before Eve Rob replies:
You agree the sinning angels were on earth before man got there. Eve would have been witnessing for GOD by remaining sinless. The Rabbi is wrong. They remained sinless for 33 years. Than they were tricked into sinning.
D" The Prodigal Son – is the Son that remembers the Father and witnesses to the world the Love he has found again by returning to the Father The Father rewards the Son – more than the son that stayed home – WHY? The Father knows – the Son returned of his own FREE WILL – (and that is the point of Free Will)
R" The Son who chose not to SIN was exercising his free will daily. He chose not to sin. The Son who chose to SIN lost his free will, because once you miss GOD, your whole life is about missing love, so there is nothing to choose, only to return to GOD once more. God is joyous because one was lost and is found. Love does not like to lose living creatures.
Is it a good thing SIN makes the Father cry every day? You say it is? The Father was sad every day until the SON came back.
D" IF God exist – why doesn’t he fix all the ra in the world – He must be weak / uncaring / or non-existant R He will one day soon.
Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. The sinning angels will be sentenced to eternal nonexistence soon, and sinning will end, Ra will end,.
D"Synod of Laodicea - Canon 29 Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
Followed by the Catechism of the Catholic Church PART ONE - THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO - THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER ONE - I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ARTICLE I - "I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH" Paragraph 7. The Fall I. WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
R" How is fall of angels a Catholic doctrine? What about trinity? You believe in Catholic trinity, whereas I don't. The word trinity is not found in Scripture.
D" If this is what the Torah says – the Jews would have figured it out 3500 years ago NO Robert – all of your doctrine comes straight out of Rome and the Catholic Church R" Jesus said the Jews are children of Satan, so how can they figure out Scripture?
The Hebrews Jesus knew differently from Jews who also read Hebrew, but the Jews killed Jesus because He read the Hebrew too differently from their reading of Hebrew, especially two crimes the Jews hated... calling yourself god, and breaking Sabbath precepts.
D" 1- Stop blaming sin upon another source – satan made me do it is a cop-out R" I am NOT blaming my SIN.
I asked where does the power of ra come from? It's source? Answer Satan.
Now as a sinner with Self, am I not allowed to use this ra from Satan as I see fit? Yes
My choice, my doing, I use self to empower myself with sinning. But the powers of this sinning flow from Satan, just as the powers of doing good, flow from God.
Take the gun. Made by designers. But my choice how I use the gun. I can kill with the gun. My choice to kill, but the power behind the gun, comes from the provider.
For some reason you do not understand demon possession in all its spectrum's of possession.
For example of you drink excessive sucrose, does this drug possess or rule over your chemistry of DNA? Absolutely it does, the liver doesn't cop, so the excess drives you with ra.
But the sugar is natural, no Being in it. Yes agree. But where did the idea of developing industrial does of sugar come from? Suggestions of idea? Words have power. Do words have power? Yes
Can a Being supply words of power? Will magicians have magic based on words, why not? God's words have power, so why can't Satan's words have power?
I am not talking of blaming this or that for ra. I am taking about where RA began, how RA actually came to Be, why does RA exist?
You say GOD creates RA, Yes, but only to allow what should not normally exist, exist. If you SIN, which is a direction of RA, GOD has to allow this RA exist, because under normal circumstances when a sinner sin, they would immediately cease to exist. Poof. Gone.
But GOD is also loving and kind, so allows your RA direction to be viewed by others who have not made this choice.
D" You must have two options for choice to exist R" Absolutely not. Free will is about love. Love is always about two options. Love is relational. There is your two options here already. Relationship has two options by definition, your hand and God's hand. Two options exist already in love.
However once you decide to choose RA, there is a missing of GOD and a crookedness engineered by GOD, so you can enjoy your SIN. How many relationships are there now? Three. You, GOD and self.
Self is a Hebrew word meaning Baal, or master. You introduce two masters when you SIN, that oppose GOD.
A sinless being has two beings, but one master. The option of holding His hand in your hand exists in love. But one master. God.
D" Your argument that yester ra did not exist until after Adam chose it is STUPID R" Prove me wrong.
Let's consider the darkness that existed before Adam was created. Why does the darkness on earth exist, as the earth was already in darkness, not light.
Is this darkness ra, yes. So why did it already exist?
Natural affect? NO Sin affect? Yes.
But you ignore this idea, you do not like the war in heaven over angels that sinned and were banished to earth, hence the ra comes from the sin of these angels.
Take another concept, time.
Why was time created from day one, when GOD came to earth already in darkness? God is without time, so earth should have been without darkness and without time, but instead GOD creates time for the darkness on earth. Why?
Is time natural ? No A sin affect? Yes
The time was created I suspect to limit the controversy over the darkness problem on earth.
D" Angels – created to serve and praise – NEVER changed into the shedim described by King Solomon R the kids of PNG tell me the spirits can invade any animal they like and possess the mind. So why can't sinning angels function as demons and devils?
D" The entire passage is about man R" What cherub is NOT man, even though cheub functions like man.
D" DUH – if you are already lost to the WORLD of archon – the archon do not have to bother with you Only when you become pious – do you recognized the archon for who they are and the Contest become personal Eph 6
R" SO why do the archons keep you from GOD than?
Is that a role assigned to them by GOD, to keep you from GOD?
Why do the archons keep you from seeking GOD?
D" DUH – really Robert are you so dense – they are archon – just like Gen 6 R " really , so are these archons 'pretend gods' , the verse you quoted to me remember?
“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the archon gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.” (Joshua 24:15)
Here we have a choice, worship GOD or the archon gods of the Amorites. Sounds like two strong authorites wanting to rule over me?
D" The archon desired human sacrifice – especially children – molech / baal When these gods were displaced from the Levant they next appeared in Carthage When Carthage fell – these same gods appeared in the Americans By 1600 the Inca were sacrificing as many as 20,000 babies to their gods per year R" And these archon gods are not another power opposing GOD? Maybe you are dense?
Even today some in Hollywood worship child sacrifice and drinking of human blood.
All I am saying is these sinning angels oppose GOD. And you do not like this idea?
D" So now your favorite verses of Jude 1:6 and 2nd Peter 2:4 must be in error The sinning angels are not chained up in a prison – they are out bothering man today R" At least I have more than one cherub chata, don't I? You now ignore three verses.
D" When God withdrawls His medium – Saul should have fallen dead in his tracks R" But God did not totally withdraw His medium...
Remember, three types of people
Hot, all God in the Medium
Lukewarm, SOme of GOD plus Some of another provider of Ra
Cold. God is totally removed from that person, the other Being has full control/
Saul was therefore lukewarm.
D" And the ra spirit is not from your satan – it is from my God
How can this be when you say
D" Saul lost his COMMUNION with God nothing more
R" SO how can you lose communion and still be with GOD, who now feeds you ra,
SOunds like good and ra bothing feeding you from one spring.
Salt and fresh water from one spring.
Does Scripture agree with this idea?
Jas 3:12 so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.(KJV)
You do not follow torah Dave.
D" Just did a search – number of time satan appears in John 8 = ZERO Oh so you can't figure the functional descriptors out?
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
SO here are FOUR Beings all chained for 1000 years, or ONE BEING under four labels?
D" Not the same level – the devil is an archon of this world - and the world is a different god (small g) and the One True Creator God (capital G)
Hebrew does not have 'g' and 'G' letters Dave.
D" Funny – all it talks about is spirit R" I get the impression you do not understand the second birth experience.
You give the word "ruwach" different meanings....
I use only one meaning for "ruwach", "medium",
fits contexts of wind, HS and character flows of powers from GOD.
D" Man is the origin of sin R" Man is not the origin of the first SIN Dave. You said yourself, angels sinned in Gen 6.
Why was the earth found void and in the darkness, in Gen 1:2 ? SIN obviously
D" So you admit – you are allowed to deny specific scripture you do not like R" No Dave I accept Scripture. shedim occurs twice in OT and heaps in the NT. Shedim means devil. SO it's a Hebrew concept.
Just not much said of shedim in the OT, was my point.
D"I believe this passage is all about the bane elohiym that committed sins against man and nature as scripture says Enoch tells us that they are held in chains in the 4th heaven awaiting to be released again by God in Rev 9 R" SO these angels didn't sin in the beginning, just only hundreds of years after Adam.
Which is it Dave. in the beginning of time, or hundreds of years after Adam was created?
I follow torah, it says angels sinned from beginning of time, long before time for earth existed. Hence term arche, beginning.
Cherub chata, and war in heaven tells us this, long before humans existed, angels sinned. This is why earth was in darkness, SIN already on earth.
God came to the earth in SIN, and created sinless humans to remain sinless to witness against sinning angels. They survived 33 years before they sinned. But because they were tricked into sinning, GOD decided to die for the missing Satan did to them, and offer a second chance of returning to GOD, as GOD offered the sinning angels, before their conscience was seared in their sins.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 8, 2021 10:27:11 GMT -5
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! How can a creature doing ra, also be doing good? Impossible according to this verse. WOW – Book of Job impossible according to you WOW – verses like 1st Chr 21:1 – are impossible according to you WOW – the angel of Death that laid waste to the Egyptians is impossible to you Rob replies: I do not do such a thing. You do, Gordon does too.Robert – the more you talk the less academically serious you becomeSatan caused no ra to Job? The angel of death killing all the first born of Egypt is not a ra? Both of these events served God’s Will – both of these event carries out by a servant of the Lord And you say scripture is impossible – you are fast loosing credibility You have yet to show me a single torah verse that disagrees with my view. Sure I can show you a verse or two I can't explain, but not ever found one I cannot explain, even ask GOD many times for answers, and these answers come.Every verse we discuss denies you satan as a god of evil Every verse we discuss demonstrates that God is in absolute control and satn is his servant Every verse we discuss demonstrates that satan is man’s accuser – NOT GOD’s opponent But I showed you, cherub chata. You ignore this one verse.TWO WORDS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT!Deu 32:17 (TLV) They sacrificed to demons, a non-god, gods they had not known—to new ones who came in lately, ones your fathers had not dreaded. Deu 32:17 (ASV) They sacrificed unto demons, which were no God, To gods that they knew not, To new gods that came up of late, Which your fathers dreaded not. Deu 32:17 (YLT) They sacrifice to demons—no god! Gods they have not known—New ones—from the vicinity they came; Not feared them have your fathers! H7700 – שֵׁד - shêd – shade - From H7736; a daemon (as malignant): - devil. H7736 – shud - (Qal) to ruin, destroy, spoil, devastate Psa 106:37 (KJV) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, Psa 106:37 (ASV) Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons, Psa 106:37 They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. But I showed you, cherub chata. You ignore this one verse.Here are two ahl verses speaking to the shedim – specifically – no word twist – no taking out of context Specifically the ahl calls them devils and demonsKing Solomon – reported to be the wises King that ever lived – wrote two complete books about the shedim and are a full part of the Jewish Temple Scrolls = ahl They are a full part of the Jewish experience and the Jewish past Paul describes them to the church in Col 1:16 and Eph 6:12 as POWERS and PRINCIPALITIES (archon) Your absolute comments about John 8 is proof you do not know the difference between devils and satan YOU – just call everyone satan and claim him to be the all-powerful source of all evil and raBut I showed you, cherub chata. – and not one supporting verse to back your theology up precept upon precept We examined each and every reference to your satan =- and each time in the ahl - he is a servant of the Lord facilitating Gods will – to which you said – all you need is cherub chata and Rev 12:7 war You do not know the difference between ahl satan and ahl devils and demonsAnd most interesting of all – you refuse to know – omit these verses you say – they are fewBut than you seem to agree that angels did sin, but only the archon God created with intentional self, who fathered angels who chose to have sex with woman, creating giant demigod like humanoid creatures. These ideas are NOT found in torah, only in Gnostic writings. Sorry Robert – Gen 6 – Jude – 2nd Peter – rev 9 and Rev 20 all speaks about devils and demons Only you and the Catholics force everything to be all about you MOST IMPORTANT GOD of EVIL = SATANYou agree many Gnostic writings are weird, false and misleading, so you pick and choose the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't like. Nice try Robert – you pick and choose which Christian writings to follow You claim that if a Rabbi says it – it must be error because those damn Jews killed Jesus But if Ellen White says it – you can bet you soul on it – but for an SDA I guess that is a safe bet because you have no soul – no such thing as spirit I do not do this with the torah. One must embrace the verses, all of them, on a particular theme. Do you – you think you do because you have doctrine to followBut themes of the shedim – can be dismissed because they do not fit your doctrine And when Paul tells us to know our enemy so we can recognizes our enemy – you say NEVER MIND IT IS ONLY SATAN – those creatures Paul and the ahl discuss are also discussed by the agl authors of the Nag Hammadi – as devils and demons- are to be overlooked / denied eve – it is all about your satanD" Absolutely – and this other strong authority is the WORLD – the home of 3D physicality and yester ra The home of the archon because (Gen 1:1 earth is their kingdom) R" you admit the archon is a kingdom, and they are a strong authority, pretending to rule over man, why is it so hard to accept my view of the torah? YES ROBERT -= the archon were cast into creation in Gen 1:2 – this is their domain – I have always said thiswhy is it so hard to accept my view of the torah?Because they are not all one cherub chata named satan the god of evil – who changed his created role as a servant of the Lord into an enemy of the Lord by his own powers - I do not believe in Evolution – then he rose up against God in a rebellion and divided God kingdom against itself And 1/3rd of all God’s created angels also EVOLVED into the shedim of King Solomon – I do not believe in evolutionCor 1:16 if a thing exist God made it – for Him by Him Eph 6:12 and some of those created things are our enemies – archon – powers and principalities No second creator – no evolution – everything created for a purpose – a function – no other god that rules man THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!R" How is fall of angels a Catholic doctrine? What about trinity? You believe in Catholic trinity, whereas I don't. The word trinity is not found in Scripture.OK – lest just look at Jewish Fallen AngelsENOCH, BOOKS OF (Ethiopic and Slavonic) - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • , that is, the natural phenomena. (3) He saw what had become of the angels, "sons of God," who, according to Gen. vi. 1-4, had come to earth and sinned with the daughters of men. (4) He interceded for these fallen angels. In 3 and 4 evidently two different cycles of legends have crossed each other FALL OF ANGELS - JewishEncyclopedia.com FALL OF ANGELS: • from NEPHILIM.) By: Emil G. Hirsch Table of Contents Woman the Cause of Fall. Later Jewish Tradition. In Apocalyptic Writings. The conception of fallen angels—angels who, for wilful, rebellious conduct against God, or through weakness under temptation.thereby forfeiting their angelic dignity, were SHAMḤAZAI - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • "Shamayḥazai" = seizer of the heaven): By: Wilhelm Bacher, Jacob Zallel Lauterbach Name of a fallen angel. According to Targ. pseudo-Jonathan on Gen. vi. 4, "nefilim" (A. V. "giants") denotes the two angels Shamḥazai and his companion Uzzael orAzael, who fell from heaven and dwelt on earth "in those ABEL-BETH-MAACHAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • at the water of Dan to the south of Mount Hermon, and there read the petition of the fallen angels until he fell asleep. "And when I awoke I came to them and saw them sitting together weeping at Abelmaim [Ethiopic, "Ublesjael"], which is between Lebanon and Serion [Ethiopic, "Seneser"]." K. Images of pages SIHON - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • . 21; Judges xi. 19-22), who took possession of his kingdom. Sihon, like Og, King of Bashan, was considered a great and mighty monarch (Ps. cxxxvi. 17-19). E. G. H. J. Z. L. —In Rabbinical Literature: Sihon was the brother of Og, and both were grandsons of the fallen angel Shamḥazai (Niddah 61a). AHRIMAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • to the conception of a fall of the angels who seduced the daughters of men (compare Gen. vi.), becoming thus the authors of all earthly sins, and especially of the demons, who, according to the same author, are descended from the giants which the daughters of men bore to the fallen angels. In accordance AHRIMAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • seduced the daughters of men (compare Gen. vi.), becoming thus the authors of all earthly sins, and especially of the demons, who, according to the same author, are descended from the giants which the daughters of men bore to the fallen angels. In accordance with another doctrine, the devil was said R" How is fall of angels a Catholic doctrine?Because the Jewish version speaks to Gen 6 and the bane elohiym = shedim = archon = powers and principalities – absolutely zero mention of a satan or a cherub chataNO Robert – all of your doctrine comes straight out of Rome and the Catholic ChurchR" Jesus said the Jews are children of Satan, so how can they figure out Scripture?THERE IT IS - JEWS WRONG ROME CORRECT!You believe in Catholic trinity, whereas I don't. The word trinity is not found in Scripture.Exo 33:18 Then he said, “Please, show me Your glory!” Exo 33:19 So He said, “I will cause all My goodness to pass before you, and call out the Name of Adonai before you. I will be gracious toward whom I will be gracious, and I will show mercy on whom I will be merciful.” Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. Exo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” No man can see the Father – but man can experience God’s Glory which is a blinding light – or man can see the back of God – the image of God = ChristD" You must have two options for choice to existR" Absolutely not. Free will is about love. Love is always about two options. Love is relational. There is your two options here already. Relationship has two options by definition, your hand and God's hand. Two options exist already in love.OK – yester tov says love God and yester ra says love self – WHAT IS YOUR POINTD" Angels – created to serve and praise – NEVER changed into the shedim described by King Solomon R the kids of PNG tell me the spirits can invade any animal they like and possess the mind. So why can't sinning angels function as demons and devils?Your sinning angels are the archon of Gen 6 – and the archon are devils and demons This has nothing to do with your satan – why do you deny the difference Answer – because it takes away all of your satan godhoodR" SO why do the archons keep you from GOD than? Is that a role assigned to them by GOD, to keep you from GOD? Why do the archons keep you from seeking GOD?Do flies – termites- and cockroaches help you see God How about alligators and poisonous snakes – or bacteria and virus help you see God ANSWER – they don’t – they all serve to keep man focused upon this world of pain As long as man is SELF ABSORBED – man has no time for God D" DUH – really Robert are you so dense – they are archon – just like Gen 6 R " really , so are these archons 'pretend gods' , the verse you quoted to me remember? “And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the archon gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell.” (Joshua 24:15) Here we have a choice, worship GOD or the archon gods of the Amorites. Sounds like two strong authorities wanting to rule over me?AND THERFORE – you say they are all creator gods equal in power to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob I say they are all just delusional god want-a –bes – just like Caesar Do you bow in prayer to Caesar? Or do you think the concept error?All I am saying is these sinning angels oppose GOD. And you do not like this idea?So Caesars mission in life is to oppose God – Sorry I think him just selfish and power hungryD" Your argument that yester ra did not exist until after Adam chose it is STUPID R" Prove me wrong. D" You must have two options for choice to exist R" Absolutely not. Free will is about love. Love is always about two options.CONFUSING MR FLIP FLOP – is it one choice here or two?OK – Adam here is your only choices – yester tov Where is the other choice? You answer – a word game – the other choice is not to choose yester tov = 2 choices Not to choose yester tov is yester ra – the other choice 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. D" And the ra spirit is not from your satan – it is from my God How can this be - an evil spirit from the LORD
D" Just did a search – number of time satan appears in John 8 = ZERO Oh so you can't figure the functional descriptors out? Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, SO here are FOUR Beings all chained for 1000 years, or ONE BEING under four labels?THERE YA GO – all of ity just blends into on god figure or you – the god of evil = satan You do not even bother to know the difference becausze it would diminish the godhood of your satan If you can role more and more demons and devils into your one and only satan – he would really a strong authority wouldn’t he -= no wonder you believe your god satan can recreate My God’s KingdomD" Not the same level – the devil is an archon of this world - and the world is a different god (small g) and the One True Creator God (capital G) Hebrew does not have 'g' and 'G' letters Dave.Nice way to avoid the facts that your satan is no GODD" Man is the origin of sin R" Man is not the origin of the first SIN Dave. You said yourself, angels sinned in Gen 6. EXCUSE ME – Gen 3 comes before Gen 6Why was the earth found void and in the darkness, in Gen 1:2 ? SIN obviouslyAnd here is your anything I need it to be definition of sin - obviouslySERIOUSLY ROBERT – is this the definition of studying scripture – defending satan as a godI think you have a serious issue – I also doubt your desire to study – but only to defend your doctrine at all cost – the more you just repeat the same cherub chata phrase does not make your satan a god in a two god system
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2021 14:11:58 GMT -5
D" Because they are not all one cherub chata named satan the god of evil – who changed his created role as a servant of the Lord into an enemy of the Lord by his own powers - I do not believe in Evolution – then he rose up against God in a rebellion and divided God kingdom against itself And 1/3rd of all God’s created angels also EVOLVED into the shedim of King Solomon – I do not believe in evolutionRob replies" What confusion you are writing here. Please explain. Why must you think shedim EVOLVED? What does this mean, according to you? Who said anything about EVOLVED? Dave says" I do not believe in evolutionRob replies" Great. Because 'I do not believe in evolution' either.
Why do you even use the term? Ezekiel says GOD created the cherub to be sinless in the beginning (a term meaning before earth time started). Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, God created the cherub, and other cherub to be sinless, perfect with functional roles. Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Here it says long ago, this cherub sinned. God did not create sin, sin is something freewill sinless creatures can choose to do. (But stop here for a moment, Gnostic writings say a creature born, immediately chooses by itself to use SELF. Is this a sin, or a natural part of creation? For you, its a natural part of creation, but for me self is a product of sin) For me the torah never speaks of creatures born with dysfunction, such as self. Torah suggests all creatures are born perfect and sinless, but some chose to become sinning. This causes a huge difference in our views. All I am saying Dave is long ago, one chief angel sinned, causing other angels to sin with him. Now the rest of the story about labeling these angels, is just additional information. To me, the term "shedim" refers to the dysfunctional roles of sinning these sinning angels took up. The term "shad" means "teat", and has a symbolic meaning. What is a breast about? A system that provides nourishment for others. D" Cor 1:16 if a thing exist God made it – for Him by Him Eph 6:12 and some of those created things are our enemies – archon – powers and principalitiesR correct God created all the creatures. But you go further saying GOD created SELF, self in my understanding is a product of sin. GOD did NOT create SIN. Sin comes from sinless creatures who chose to SIN. This is where we differ, humans and angels are both with adam and iysh functions, both described together in poetry metaphors. Both are creatures designed to be near the GOD of love. D" No second creator – no evolution – everything created for a purposeR" correct. D" no other god that rules man - THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!R" Hmm? Really Dave, no other elohiym power except GOD? Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods "elohiym power " before me. What's this commandment about than Dave? Is another elohiym power a myth? Why is this command in the torah if GOD is the only elohiym power there is? My answer is this, because as soon as a sinless creature sins they become an OPPOSER that opposes the true one and only elohiym power , and thus the sinner becomes a pretending elohiym power , that challenges GOD as the one and only true elohiym power . Does this make sense to you? Now you explain why this command is in the torah? ----------------------------- D" AHRIMAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • seduced the daughters of men (compare Gen. vi.), becoming thus the authors of all earthly sins, and especially of the demons, who, according to the same author, are descended from the giants which the daughters of men bore to the fallen angelsR" so Jews do have a concept of fallen angels? Jews define shedim as sinning angels who fathered demigod like humans who bore children which as shedim. Hmm? Why did you argue against me Dave, if Jews have fallen angels? I though Jews say angels cannot fall or cannot sin, seems like angels can fall and can sin? Your post here just adds to my view, that sinning angels are impacting upon our human world. D" Because the Jewish version speaks to Gen 6 and the bane elohiym = shedim = archon = powers and principalities – absolutely zero mention of a satan or a cherub chata NO Robert – all of your doctrine comes straight out of Rome and the Catholic ChurchR" Than you argue differences over little bits and pieces? The fact the Jews do not read Ezekiel is their problem. You get bogged down in details. D" THERE IT IS - JEWS WRONG ROME CORRECT!From what you have presented, Jews do have fallen angels, and sinning angels, so what's the big deal Dave? Jews have it right after all. They just ignore Ezekiel verses. Jews also do not read Daniel. A forbidden book about Yashua. D" Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock.R" It doesn't say Adonai, it says YHWH. D" No man can see the Father – but man can experience God’s Glory which is a blinding light – or man can see the back of God – the image of God = ChristThe passage is not showing "three persons or expressions of GOD" Dave. I would use this passage instead, but it's hidden in poetry terms De 32:11 As an eagle <nesher> stirreth up <`uwr> her nest <qen>, fluttereth <rachaph> over her young <gowzal>, spreadeth abroad <paras> her wings <kanaph>, taketh <laqach> them, beareth <nasa'> them on her wings <'ebrah>: 12 So the LORD <Y@hovah> alone <badad> did lead <nachah> him, and there was no strange <nekar> god <'el> with him. 13 He made him ride <rakab> on the high places <bamah> of the earth <'erets>, that he might eat <'akal> the increase <t@nuwbah> of the fields <sadeh>; and he made him to suck <yanaq> honey <d@bash> out of the rock <cela`>, and oil <shemen> out of the flinty <challamiysh> rock <tsuwr>; Eagle is a simile of the HS, with her wings. YHWH (Yashua) alone (separated from the other two) did lead them, is a strong authority. Yashua is a cela rock, but the Father is a flint tsuwr rock. Both rocks have two different functional roles. Here are three functional roles here. D" OK – yester tov says love God and yester ra says love self – WHAT IS YOUR POINTR" NO. NO. no. nooooo Dave. In the sinless beginning there was no yester ra, this term refers to a direction, a turning away from GOD, or disobeying GOD. In a sinless state, the two options are loving GOD hand in your hand. Or not loving GOD, letting go of His hand, in your hand. As you choose to let go, GOD holds your hand all the time, and creates the direction you choose (ra) until you are allowed to walk off the track, but GOD still holds your finger, incase you want to return back to Him. Once you transgress the royal codes of love, does GOD keep holding your hand, deal with your sin of missing Him, and you experience what you asked for, a darkness, a depression, a fruit of sin, the development of BAAL, another master rules over you, called SELF. ONLY after ra and pesha and the fruit of sin developed, does Self begin to rule over you as a propensity to sinning. Than pride begins to form and it is harder to return back to GOD who is still holding your finger. D" Y our sinning angels are the archon of Gen 6 – and the archon are devils and demons This has nothing to do with your satan – why do you deny the difference Answer – because it takes away all of your satan godhood
R" bogged down in details, are these details true anyway? Jews say angels fell, fallen angels, seduce men to sin, etc, etc. So the basic point Jews agree on is the angels sinned and some angels are fallen. www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmArticles like this only add to confusion, the precepts of human ideas. " The word satan simply means prosecutor in Hebrew." SO GOD was a prosecutor to the donkey on the road? Hardly? The word means to oppose. " In fact, the Talmud tells us that "Satan, the urge to do evil, and the Angel of Death are all one."2Hmm? D" THERE YA GO – all of ity just blends into on god figure or you – the god of evil = satan You do not even bother to know the difference becausze it would diminish the godhood of your satanR" you are bogged down in details, can we at least agree over basic facts? Do Jews say in times past, that some angels did choose to sin, and thus become fallen because of their sins? Let's get this basic fact right first, the details do not matter. D" EXCUSE ME – Gen 3 comes before Gen 6 Oh so angels sin later, gen 6, after man sinned first, gen 3? Is that it?
Not what torah says, angels left their estate in the beginning, before earth was even mentioned. War in heaven ? Long before earth was even used for anything. Another scripture you ignore perhaps? Do Jews say some angels sinned long before earth was used for anything?Before Gen 6 Before Gen 3 Before Gen 1 Before time on earth started/ What about war in heaven Dave? Angels fighting against whom? God?? D" And here is your anything I need it to be definition of sin - obviouslyR" Oh, what other reason for darkness upon the earth is there? Darkness is the absence of light, why wasn't the earth already bathed in light Dave? OH but you have GOD deals with natural ra all the time, so its natural for some dark places in God's universe? Is this true? I thought GOD is light, not allows some dark places? And you say I am not serious? Really Dave. Science once did an experiment underground to remove light from a room, through many doors closed and locked, after weeks the men in the dark, saw things, and ran clocks of time inside themselves...so you cannot escape the presence of light. Explain why was earth in the dark, when GOD visited the earth? SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 8, 2021 18:18:42 GMT -5
Why must you think shedim EVOLVED? What does this mean, according to you?The shedim are ugly creatures (made with some matter) of the underworld all fathered by Beelzebub The shedim are 100% SELF – just like cows, cockroaches, and termtes You claim that it is impossible for God to make self cretures So where so your Catholic demons come from – they are the beautiful angels created specifically to praise god – that changed into the demons Who said anything about EVOLVED?1st you say satan changed his own nature from a servant angel to a god of evil 2nd you then say he talked 1/3rd of all of God’s angels to then also change into different creatures 3rd you say that the teeth and digestive systems of all carnivores changed – 4th you say it is all about the DNA of animal man that changed – was altered – corrupted 5th you say you do not suggest evolution but use terms like adaptive evolution and natural selection to define God’s creation Dave says" I do not believe in evolution Rob replies" Great. Because 'I do not believe in evolution' either.EXECPT when you need it to explain the very foundation of your doctrineD" No second creator – no evolution – everything created for a purpose R" correct.The First Archon was created for a purpose – a function – just like all beings within creation We each have our role to playMan role is to choose Why do you even use the term? Ezekiel says GOD created the cherub to be sinless in the beginning (a term meaning before earth time started). Eze 28:14 God created the cherub, and other cherub to be sinless, perfect with functional roles. Eze 28:16 God did not create sin, sin is something freewill sinless creatures can choose to do. Correct – the only creature to have the option – man Man is the creature that can choose – this is why man is special – and above angels (But stop here for a moment, Gnostic writings say a creature born, immediately chooses by itself to use SELF. Is this a sin, or a natural part of creation? For you, its a natural part of creation, but for me self is a product of sin)When a cow is born – does it wake up and choose to be a cow?When the First Archon awoke – its first thought was of matter (self) because he was made with some matter Just al all creatures made with matter – and instinctive self-preservation = man For me the torah never speaks of creatures born with dysfunction, such as self. Torah suggests all creatures are born perfect and sinless, but some chose to become sinning.I guess if everything is a sin – then what you say is that creation was perfect until it started living Correct – why is that – because matter comes with SELFAll I am saying Dave is long ago, one chief angel sinned, Correct Gen 1:2 the First Archon – the Chief Archon – the Beast and Dragon of Revelation causing other angels to sin with him. Who had offspring – everything after its own kind – zero evolution Now the rest of the story about labeling these angels, is just additional information. And that additional information would be Col 1:16 and Eph 6:12 I absolutely agree with you Robert this is called the Reality of the ArchonYES – Powers – Principalities (archon) – visible on earth and invisible around us YES – absolutely agree – the reality of the archon NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANTo me, the term "shedim" refers to the dysfunctional roles of sinning these sinning angels took up.The shedim are fathered by Beelzebub - they are made with matter and we know this because when they are in 3D form man can kill them – or entrap them The shedim are not angels – never were angels NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANBut you go further saying GOD created SELF, self in my understanding is a product of sin. So cows are sinners – as well as cockroaches and termites This is all you can see because everything is sin GOD did NOT create SIN. Sin comes from sinless creatures who chose to SIN. And the only record of this = MAN = EVE then ADAM then all mankindD" no other god that rules man - THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD! R" Hmm? Really Dave, no other elohiym power except GOD? Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods "elohiym power " before me. What's this commandment about than Dave? Is another elohiym power a myth? Why is this command in the torah if GOD is the only elohiym power there is?DUH – you are so dense Sex, drugs, and rock and roll can all be idols for man to worship – gods (small g – butt you claim you can’t tell the difference) Work is a common god in America – don’t have time for God today – have to work Someone said it like – I do the things I have to do – to live the life I choose to live Anything that sidetrack man for the goal Mormonism – being a Jehovah Witness – and especially a Unitarian On top of this – there are archon that desire worship to feed their – self There are 33 ‘other gods’ of the ahl – all very real – all very archon And if you studied them you would see 1- man built them houses – (Temples) 2- man brought food to the Temples to feed the gods 3- man sacrifices human beings to these gods 4- Enoch says they consumed so much that man became food for them 5- same theme in Sumar – Assyria – Babylon – Egypt – Greece – Rome – and all around the world YES ROBERT – the REALITY OF THE ARCHON is very real indeedAlso – rare – but valid – demonic possession More common in Islam today that Catholicism – by Jinn / archon NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATAN My answer is this, because as soon as a sinless creature sins they become an OPPOSER that opposes the true one and only elohiym power , and thus the sinner becomes a pretending elohiym power , that challenges GOD as the one and only true elohiym power .
Does this make sense to you? Now you explain why this command is in the torah?1- do not agree with your conclusion 2- NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATAN----------------------------- D"AHRIMAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com JewishEncyclopedia.com • seduced the daughters of men (compare Gen. vi.), becoming thus the authors of all earthly sins, and especially of the demons, who, according to the same author, are descended from the giants which the daughters of men bore to the fallen angels R" so Jews do have a concept of fallen angels? Please read this English over sand over until you understand this is all about the bane elohiym and the NephilimJews define shedim as sinning angels who fathered demigod like humans who bore children which as shedim. Hmm? Correct – archon – bane elohiym and Nephilim + RephiemNOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANWhy did you argue against me Dave, if Jews have fallen angels? I though Jews say angels cannot fall or cannot sin, seems like angels can fall and can sin?Your post here just adds to my view, that sinning angels are impacting upon our human world. Correct – this is the domain / kingdom of the archon – man is just passing throughNOT ONE MENTION OF = SATAND" Because the Jewish version speaks to Gen 6 and the bane elohiym = shedim = archon = powers and principalities – absolutely zero mention of a satan or a cherub chata NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANNO Robert – all of your doctrine comes straight out of Rome and the Catholic Church R" Than you argue differences over little bits and pieces?Well – your bits and pieces change the entire nature of reality into a two god Zoroastrian systen of eternal conflict – and you give ll the credit to you god of evil = satanNOT ONE MENTION OF = SATAN – HERE!From what you have presented, Jews do have fallen angels, and sinning angels, so what's the big deal Dave? Jews have it right after all. They just ignore Ezekiel verses. INCORRECT – there are two groupsThe Archon – shedim – powers and principalities that have absolutely nothing to do with your cherub chata Then there is satan the loyal servant of God performing his assignmentD" No man can see the Father – but man can experience God’s Glory which is a blinding light – or man can see the back of God – the image of God = Christ The passage is not showing "three persons or expressions of GOD" Dave. YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY CORRECT – NOT 3 PERSONSOnly one God – man can experience His as Spirit or in a image/ form ChristD" Your sinning angels are the archon of Gen 6 – and the archon are devils and demons This has nothing to do with your satan – why do you deny the difference Answer – because it takes away all of your satan godhood R" bogged down in details, are these details true anyway?I don't know Robert - what do you think - is scripture true? and just how can thegodhood of satanbe a dimissable detailJews say angels fell, fallen angels, seduce men to sin, etc, etc. So the basic point Jews agree on is the angels sinned and some angels are fallen. YES – the Jews fully accept the reality of the archon – they just use different vocabularyNOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANwww.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmI read it – Blah blah blah Punishment implies sin. If so, the above cited Midrash implies that angels can indeed and in fact did sin. Blah blah blah So in answer to your question, yes angels can sin. However, they can only sin through mistaking their mission Enoch tells us that the sinning angels of Jude and 2n2 Peter are the bane elohiym and Nephilim of Gen 6 agl tells us they are held for use later by God Rev 9 Rev 20D" THERE YA GO – all of its just blends into on god figure or you – the god of evil = satan You do not even bother to know the difference because it would diminish the godhood of your satan R" Let's get this basic fact right first, the details do not matter.Easy for you when you continually say the source is invalid the correlations do not matter and the bulk of scripture does not have to support your view Two stand-alone words taken out of contest and the backing of the Catholic ChurchNot what torah says, angels left their estate in the beginning, before earth was even mentioned War in heaven ? Long before earth was even used for anything. Another scripture you ignore perhaps?FULLY AGREE – left in Gen 1:2 – committed their sin in this WORLD against man and nature in Gen 6
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2021 14:37:08 GMT -5
D" So where so your Catholic demons come from – they are the beautiful angels created specifically to praise god – that changed into the demonsR" our theories are different yes, but you have no proof what shedim looked like? My understanding is angels can impersonate whatever they like, so a second creator is not necessary. Angels have powers that humans may not have, which explains why GOD limited the angels affect on humans, after God placed humans on earth with these sinning angels, to be a witness against sin and the sinning affects of sin. What is hard to think in your theory, is GOD designing creatures with inherent SELF inside them, to me that is a sinning trait, and impossible for GOD to do. Hence the torah never speaks of GOD creating such creatures. The angels that sinned chose to sin, and thus are beautiful glorious and once were sinless. However when you leave GOD, your glory and beauty leaves also, so I suspect these sinning angels do not look as good as they once did. Who said anything about EVOLVED? Dave replies" 1st you say satan changed his own nature from a servant angel to a god of evilRob replies" Hang on, how is deciding to stop doing a functional role and doing a different functional role, evolution? Do you know what evolution means? I would call this changing behaviour.
Dave replies" 2nd you then say he talked 1/3rd of all of God’s angels to then also change into different creatures
Rob replies" Really Dave, when you sin, your relationship changes to GOD, but you don't evolve into a dragon, or a lizard, or a evil snake, your still a human. Evolution is a myth process where the DNA to become a brand new different animals is suddenly or gradually written into the DNA code, where it wasn't written there before the evolution process began. Such huge changes in the DNA process with functional purposeful changes to the DNA code is a myth. Information simply does not come naturally by external forces. Information only comes from a Designer who designs the code required. Choosing to sin, rebellion, disobeying, is NOT changing your DNA code. Dave replies" 3rd you say that the teeth and digestive systems of all carnivores changed –Rob replies" The DNA code GOD wrote, has the ability for animals to eat different foods if they need to, to adapt, if the animal needs to, to change length of limbs etc, if the animal needs to, these changes are already programmed into the DNA by GOD. Why did GOD do this? Because GOD foreknew the existence of SIN by Adam, and so planned for it, BEFORE Adam decided to sin. So these are what Creation Scientists call, natural changes to the animals from the DNA code. Meaning if an animal does not adapt, it become extinct. And many animals did become extinct, but many other didn't. This process of change is not evolution. Dave replies" 4th you say it is all about the DNA of animal man that changed – was altered – corrupted
Rob replies" When Adam sinned, mutational damage, did occur destroying the DNA code within us, entropy began causing errors in our copying of the code, and these things did cause a spoiling of our code. This again is not evolution, as the term is defined to mean, the process of changing both small things and large things. There is no evidence of a frog becoming a lizard, or an ape becoming a human. These sort of changes require huge amounts of DNA code changes that are not possible unless a Designer writes the Design required. Such changes of DNA do not come about naturally. So spoiling and losing information is not Evolution. And that is what mutations do, they cause a loss of divine DNA information is us. Evolution really goes down hill regarding information lost, NOT uphill regarding information gained. Dave replies" 5th you say you do not suggest evolution but use terms like adaptive evolution and natural selection to define God’s creation
Rob replies" Many terms evolutionists use were once invented by Creation Science people before evolution as a science even began. Evolution hijacked the terms the earlier science people used, taking over our terms and use of words. For example natural selection is a Creationist term, originally. The father of geology for instance was a Creationist. Isaac Newton was a Creationist. Check out the dozens of Creation people who wrote stuff before evolution ideas began. No such thing as adaptive evolution, to avoid confusion we should not use the term evolution at all, just like trinity, these are manmade terms, and are not defined very well in the traditions and precepts of man, so using their terms causes confusion. Rob replies" G reat. Because 'I do not believe in evolution' either.Dave replies" EXECPT when you need it to explain the very foundation of your doctrine
Rob replies again. NO Dave. I do not use the term evolution ever. What you are talking about is NOT evolution, and adaption, change and behaviour choices is NOT evolution either. D" The First Archon was created for a purpose – a function – just like all beings within creation We each have our role to play
R" Are you suggests creatures only have functional roles designed and wired into the DNA code ONLY for the functional role they have? What a silly idea? In some cases I see what you're saying, cows do what cows do. Bird do what birds do. But you are assuming that all animals have no intelligence, only programmed functional roles? NO, Alex the grey parrot, studied extensively showed love outside the normal realms of what birds do, and began acting like humans do, ie 4 yr old humans. SO I suspect functional roles can be relearned and taught as shown by ALex, but not all animals do this all the time. Once a gorilla rescued a man stuck in a swamp bog. The creature offered his arm and pulled the human out. There are examples that all creatures had love designed in them, and the intelligence to go with choosing to love. As for sinning angels, they sin because they love sinning, not because they were designed to sin. If this were true, than GOD created sin as well as good. D" Correct – the only creature to have the option – man Man is the creature that can choose – this is why man is special – and above angelsR" Again you stick to your dogma. Alex the grey parrot chose to love her mate, the human. This is NOT what birds normally do. The bird often in science tests chose to be naughty and nice, chose to be cheeky as well as obedient. All the traits of a normal 4 yr old human brain, in it's complexity of thinking. Science has studied all animals solve puzzles often puzzles for the first time, without random trials. What you are referring to is man's ability to choose salvation, is a gift from GOD. God chooses not to save the creatures who are trapped by Adam's sin, so in this regard man is regarded as more special to GOD. Angels also sinned. Jesus called a devil a murderer, that means the devil sinned, as humans sinned. Get the idea? You challenged me once that angels do not keep the royal law, well there is your answer in Jesus words, the Devil is a murderer from the beginning, a father of lies. But you have beginning starting from Gen 6. It says in Gen 1, in the beginning God created things on earth.... so you change the meaning of the term beginning.... If angels sinned from the beginning, they sinned before Gen 1. Let's keep the word meanings consistent, shall we? D" Just al all creatures made with matter – and instinctive self-preservation = manR" this term you invent, another man-made word, invented by people who do not love GOD, are you sure such a term exists in God's world? To me, all animals wake up responding to God's love, better than humans do, such animals praise a God of love better than humans do. D" Correct – why is that – because matter comes with SELFR" No, matter does not come with SELF. If this were true, Adam sinned as a process of having self already in him. The temptation to sin wasn't given, as man chooses to sin automatically? Come on Dave, is self inside us or not inside us, from birth. When I am born as a fetus, I do not come with self. Self is the term we use when I begin to sin. In Hebrew this term is called Baal, or Master. When do I become a Master of myself, doing as I please? As a fetus? When I choose to? If monkey see, if monkey listen, the monkey fetus hears sins, from Mum and sins in the fetus brain, Mum drinks ra food, and so the fetus brain processes ra food, the Satanic forces speak to the fetus brain, and so the fetus processes the thoughts of ra. Under a Nazarine vow, the HS lives in the fetus during birth and after birth, protecting the baby from ra thoughts, until the child thinks for itself, so humans normally are born fallen, yes, but sinless, without sin, without self, but become sinful and sinning from within the womb. Some confuse me saying born fallen is the same as born sinful, these terms are not the same at all. Samson was born sinless, but fallen with corrupted DNA, but chose to sin as an adult, he was protected from ra processes until he as an adult chose to sin. Samuel is another example, John the Baptist another example, Jesus another example. All born without ra process influencing their minds during birth. Dave corrects me" All I am saying Dave is long ago, one chief angel sinned, Correct Gen 1:2 the First Archon – the Chief Archon – the Beast and Dragon of Revelation causing other angels to sin with him.
Rob replies" No Dave. You are saying God created one chief creature (WHEN? before Gen 1 or during Gen 2) than the creature fathers archons (not angelic creatures, but Enoch labels them as this) and during Gen 6, these creatures decide to sin (an Enoch term) and so the archon world of ra begins with humans. When did the first creature GOD created SIN? You say during Gen 1:2 But how does this fit "war in heaven" with angels banished to earth (Gen 1:2) It doesn't. Therefore the angels who sinned occur before Gen 1:1. Either the Rev 12 made a mistake, or your Gnostic writings is in error. Your choice. D" I absolutely agree with you Robert this is called the Reality of the ArchonR glad you agree. SO let's nail WHEN SIN occurred first, Not in Gen 6, Not in Gen 1:2, but before the angels were banished to earth (Gen1:2) , this war has to have happened before Gen 1:1. D" The shedim are not angels – never were angels NOT ONE MENTION OF = SATANR" Hmm? Wer are mixing terms here. Cherub is a creature term. Note sure if we have a human Hebrew word for humans, not iysh, not adam? Hmm? SHedim meaning breast is a functional role about some creatures, could apply to any creature doing ra could it not, humans or angels alike? Satan is also a functional term can apply to humans, angels, even GOD, the term simply means to oppose. You are saying angels cannot functionally give humans ra milk? Normally the torah is the true milk for humans? Very hard to verify your statements because the Greek has no word for cherub, only malak, so we have to assume a malak is a cherub. Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: This one verse might suffice you. D" And the only record of this = MAN = EVE then ADAM then all mankindR" Yes and only ONE verse too Ro 5:16 And <kai> not <ou> as <hos> it was by <dia> one <heis> that sinned <hamartano>, so is the gift <dorema>: for <gar> <men> the judgment <krima> was by <ek> one <heis> to <eis> condemnation <katakrima>, When adam sinned hamartano, a correct meaning, chata, to sin., the judgement of GOD was condemnation 'katakrima' , this is a legal term, meaning all living things were condemned, because Adam sinned. THis word is only used three times in NT. D" DUH – you are so dense Sex, drugs, and rock and roll can all be idols for man to worship – gods (small g – butt you claim you can’t tell the difference) Work is a common god in America – don’t have time for God today – have to work
R" OH so sinning traits have no BEING, no PROVIDER of ra? Where does SIN come from? Oh you would say from NOBODY but yourself, and you getting side tracked. So what Jesus said was a lie? Ye are of the children of the devil, He is the Father of Lies, a Murderer from before Gen 1:1. Shedim, the angel who provides ra milk. Once you drink the milk, what sins you do is your business. But all power begins with words Dave, GOD's words also come with power. Ho 14:2 Take <laqach> with you words <dabar>, and turn <shuwb> to the LORD <Y@hovah>: The devil also has words. Ra Milk, also termed shedim, the teat that causes ra, a directional change to disobey God. D" On top of this – there are archon that desire worship to feed their – selfR" And you say these sinning angels do not demand human devotions and human resources and human time, sounds like strong authorities ruling over us. Judges is an interesting book, about Self, people did in their own eyes as they sought fit. In other words the Baal Master of Self empowered them. ----------------------- R" Not what torah says, angels left their estate in the beginning, before earth was even mentioned War in heaven ? Long before earth was even used for anything.D" FULLY AGREE – left in Gen 1:2 – committed their sin in this WORLD against man and nature in Gen 6R" care to detail? Did the angels sin before Gen 1:1 "war in heaven" than banished to earth. than Gen 1:1 begins with angels sinning on the earth in the darkness. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 9, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5
D" So where so your Catholic demons come from – they are the beautiful angels created specifically to praise god – that changed into the demons R" our theories are different yes, but you have no proof what shedim looked like?All we have is the account of King Solomon – the wisest Jewish King of all time – And the accounts of the authors of the agl Of course you must reject and deny – it is your montra Who said anything about EVOLVED? Dave replies" 1st you say satan changed his own nature from a servant angel to a god of evil Rob replies" Hang on, how is deciding to stop doing a functional role and doing a different functional role, evolution? Do you know what evolution means? I would call this changing behaviour. YEP – a creature created to praise and serve – changed himself into a creatures that hates and opposes This violates the your royal law of god – every creature after its own kind
Dave replies" 2nd you then say he talked 1/3rd of all of God’s angels to then also change into different creatures Rob replies" Really Dave, when you sin, YEP – a creatures created to praise and serve – changed themselves into a creatures that hate and opposes This violates the your royal law of god – every creature after its own kindDave replies" 3rd you say that the teeth and digestive systems of all carnivores changed – You continue to deny / disrespect your Royal Law of God – everything after its own kind No creature big or small change it form or function
Dave replies" 4th you say it is all about the DNA of animal man that changed – was altered – corrupted Rob replies" When Adam sinned, mutational damage, did occur destroying the DNA All your focus is upon the WORLD – the animal – you deny the spiritual This is the function of the archon – to make you believe that WORLD is all there isDave replies" 5th you say you do not suggest evolution but use terms like adaptive evolution and natural selection to define God’s creation The father of geology for instance was a Creationist. Isaac Newton was a Creationist. Check out the dozens of Creation people who wrote stuff before evolution ideas began. Absolutely – quote me some vegetarian shark stuff from the Jews of the ahlBecause the Jewish version of creation is that everything was made by God- for God and there is no such thing as any creature changing its form or function – regardless of what word game you play to disguise evolution This is why the Catholic idea of an angel changing it form and function on its own is rediculasRob replies" Great. Because 'I do not believe in evolution' either. Dave replies" EXECPT when you need it to explain the very foundation of your doctrine Rob replies again. NO Dave. I do not use the term evolution ever. SURE - change the vocabulary for deniability – no creature has ever changed it form or functionNo pig ever changed into a cow No herbivore changed into a carnivore No angel ever changed into a demon D" The First Archon was created for a purpose – a function – just like all beings within creation We each have our role to play In some cases I see what you're saying, cows do what cows do. Bird do what birds do. But you are assuming that all animals have no intelligence, only programmed functional roles? AGAIN – intelligence has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FREE WIIL CHOICE Extremely intelligent people have never even stopped to consider God – or they are too bright to believe in God – too educated Extreme morons are some of the most devout believers – just simple
Intelligence is yester ra speaking Soul says – remember God and intelligence comes up with 10 million reasons to doubt D" Correct – the only creature to have the option – man Man is the creature that can choose – this is why man is special – and above angels R" Again you stick to your dogma. Alex the grey parrot chose to love her mateAgain – you think man is no more special than DNA with a brain – no soul because spirit is impossibleYou challenged me once that angels do not keep the royal law, well there is your answer in Jesus words, the Devil is a murderer from the beginning, a father of lies. If you have been paying attention to yourself – you identified the devil as the leader of the bane elohiym They are not angels – they are archon created for their functionIf angels sinned from the beginning, they sinned before Gen 1. Let's keep the word meanings consistent, shall we? If the First Archon was created in the beginning we are speaking of Gen 1:1-3 the first age – that same as all the host of heaven D" Just al all creatures made with matter – and instinctive self-preservation = man R" this term you invent, another man-made word, invented by people who do not love GOD, are you sure such a term exists in God's world? NOW you want to deny that animals are born with instinct – too desperateDave corrects me" All I am saying Dave is long ago, one chief angel sinned, Correct Gen 1:2 the First Archon – the Chief Archon – the Beast and Dragon of Revelation causing other angels to sin with him.No – the First Archon had offspring – multiplied and subdued the earth as the commad to all creatures of matterRob replies" No Dave. You are saying God created one chief creature (WHEN? before Gen 1 or during Gen 2) than the creature fathers archons (not angelic creatures, but Enoch labels them as this) and during Gen 6, these creatures decide to sin (an Enoch term) and so the archon world of ra begins with humans. Nice try to muddy the water – and this is why I know for a fact to cannot be serious The first Archon was created in the First Age Gen 1:1 or 2 that resulted in the choshek The First Archon had offspring = bane elohiym (last name archon) Where are these bane elohiym archon – they are on/in earth as per Gen 1:2 + Rev 12:7 Gen 3 the light is introduced as the solution for the choshek Gen1:1 + 1:2 + 1:3 – is the entire story of salvation Man is introduced in Gen 1 Gen 2 God places man and archon together on earth A law is given Gen 3 – the law was broken and the Contest is established by God for God Gen chapter 1 + chapter 2 + chapter 3 = the entire story of salvation When did the first creature GOD created SIN? You say during Gen 1:2Without law there is no sin The first recorded law breaking was EveBut how does this fit "war in heaven" with angels banished to earth (Gen 1:2) It doesn't. Therefore the angels who sinned occur before Gen 1:1. Either the Rev 12 made a mistake, or your Gnostic writings is in error. Your error is your inability to define sinGnostic texts say the First Archon woke up and his first thought was of self Just like a cow – just like a bird – each created differently to fill different functions/roles in god’s creation For this the archon were cast into creation You insist this is a sin – yet there is no evidence to support your claim – just doctrine and attitude Gnostic literature says they were ugly and hidden away into creation D" I absolutely agree with you Robert this is called the Reality of the ArchonR glad you agree. AND NOT ONE MENTION OF SATAN SO let's nail WHEN SIN occurred first,First recorded sin was EveNot in Gen 1:2, but before the angels were banished to earth (Gen1:2) , this war has to have happened before Gen 1:1. I know you love this war word Truth – they were cast out period – was it an even mated it any way shape of form – ridicules Rev 20 they are cast into the Lake of Fire – no war – no contest – just cast in period Very hard to verify your statements because the Greek has no word for cherub, only malak, so we have to assume a malak is a cherub.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This one verse might suffice you.WAIT FOR IT – those of the LEFT HAND – you have already declared you refuse to grasp this meaning Because the left hand of God is not SDA doctrine D" DUH – you are so dense Sex, drugs, and rock and roll can all be idols for man to worship – gods (small g – butt you claim you can’t tell the difference) Work is a common god in America – don’t have time for God today – have to work R" OH so sinning traits have no BEING, no PROVIDER of ra? Where does SIN come from? For the 10 millionth time – yester ra is a product of biology – it is WORLD There is no need for a God of evil to be responsible for cold, disease, hunger, greed, and covetness Yester ra of biology takes care of all of it The archon are here to fuel that yester ra – so that man forgets the yester tov inside Live for the animal – not for the spirit D" On top of this – there are archon that desire worship to feed their – self R" And you say these sinning angels do not demand human devotions and human resources and human time, sounds like strong authorities ruling over us.If you think Caesar is a god – then bow to him – go for it Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being If you think Baal is a god worthy of your praise go for it – see if it saves your soul Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being If you think Allah is a god worthy of your praise – go for it Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being If you think your satan deserves your praise – continue on Personally – I think he is just a created being – and your delusional for praising him
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2021 14:09:44 GMT -5
D" This violates the your royal law of god – every creature after its own kindR" Are you saying creatures cannot be trained to adopt other functional behaviors? Once a scientist trained a monkey to use a rock to crack open large seed pods, so after several generations, many monkeys can be seen now doing this new functional role. D" No creature big or small change it form or functionR" Really? ? What if changes in behaviour was wired into the DNA code long ago, it's called adapting to any world the creature is thrown at? Have you considered the mighty ability of the programmer? Why must you limit God abilities? Sure city raccoons eat differently than the bush raccoons, but hey a raccoon is still a raccoon. The bear was designed to be herbivore, some like panda bear and koala bear still are, the USA kind are mostly herbivore, but learned to catch fish to supplement their diet. But you say intelligence is something creatures do not have, the ability to think, do and adapt? Why even bacteria sense chemical currents and swim towards of away from these currents using their tails and motors. D" All your focus is upon the WORLD – the animal – you deny the spiritualR" You give me no proof of a spiritual world, or spirit bodies, no such thing sorry Dave. If cherub is described as iysh and adam functions, they are more or less the same as humans, but unlike humans can freely move between different dimensions. Just as Jesus did, walked into a house that was locked, but ate bread in front of the disciples proving to them all his body was a flesh body like Jesus had before, now scarred with torture. No spirit body here? Where is your proof? D" Absolutely – quote me some vegetarian shark stuff from the Jews of the ahlR" OK, why must you doubt GOD's abilities? Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. Lions are herbivores in heaven and the new earth. Go figure! D" Because the Jewish version of creation is that everything was made by God- for God and there is no such thing as any creature changing its form or function –R" Really? Well apparently the lion once a carnivore in a fallen world, go back to its nutritious diet of grass again in the new earth made perfectly function. Sounds like adaption to me? Are you suggesting the Lord changes the DNA code for the lion in the new earth? Another example is the NZ Kea parrot, eats roots off certain trees. Surburbs removed those trees, so the parrot began eating the flesh off the back of sheep. Outcry! So they banned removing the trees, planted new trees of that species, and lo and behold the parrot went back to being a herbivore again, even though it can be also a carnivore. It prefers to be herbivore though. D" SURE - change the vocabulary for deniability – no creature has ever changed it form or function No pig ever changed into a cowR" Correct. Not possible D" No herbivore changed into a carnivoreR" Many species can eat foods are it needs to adapt, All dogs in Papua New Guinea are herbivores and all dog in Australia are carnivores. Go figure Dave? Stop reading silly precepts of man, and inventions of their ideas. Dogs is PNG used their teeth to break open coconut husks, and tapicoa skin, etc. Nobody in PNG feeds dogs meat, not even me when I had a dog there. I fed my dog for 5 years on rice mixed with beef OXO cubes. D" No angel ever changed into a demonR" You suppose a demon is a sexual breed of human with angel making something weird. Sorry the Scriptures do not describe angels having sex with humans, your Gen 6 is a myth. Adam and Eve were large naturally, about 15 feet tall, we are the smaller ones, because of lack of growth hormone. The bane elohiym refers as an idiom to creatures who follow GOD wholly, can can refer to humans or angels or other unfallen creatures from other worlds. A shedim is a functional description of a creature supplying you with "ra milk" an idiom meaning "words that make self more important than serving GOD humbly". D" A GAIN – intelligence has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FREE WIIL CHOICE Extremely intelligent people have never even stopped to consider God – or they are too bright to believe in God – too educatedR" Hmm? If a creature had no brain of intelligence, it could not make choices. Alas for bright humans, too educated, I find these ones are too proud to admit they need a crutch to lean on. Most educated ones say I do not need a crutch to support me, I can support myself. Self cannot exist on it's own, solitary. God is relational, and all who attempt to live alone will soon cease to exist. Humble is a relational term, looking out for others. Pride is a self term, only looking out for self, solitary, you only. In God's world cannot exist. D" If you have been paying attention to yourself – you identified the devil as the leader of the bane elohiym They are not angels – they are archon created for their function
R" Oh I see, the devils are created creatures from Yalboath, not angels at all, but archons. These creatures came from sexual breeding from humans? Your Gen 6 idea. Well one way to put this theory to rest is the timing of the Yalboath creatures. They came to be from Gen 6, NOT from the arche, beginning, before Gen 1:1 SO your timing is wrong, your theory is wrong too. I showed you Rev 20 where terms devil, dragon and satan are all thrown into one label. But you override this because Gen 6 says Yalboath creatures came from humans, the archon demigods came from this time. But this is not "beginning". Jude 1:6 And <te> the angels <aggelos> which kept <tereo> not <me> their <heautou> first estate <arche>, It says here the malak left their arche. And in context, which messengers left their beginnings? Angels did. Arche does not mean dozens of years into Gen 1:1, but from before Gen 1:1 Mt 19:4 And <de> he answered <apokrinomai> and said <epo> unto them <autos>, Have ye <anaginosko> not <ou> read <anaginosko>, that <hoti> he which <ho> made <poieo> them at <apo> the beginning <arche> made <poieo> them <autos> male <arrhen> and <kai> female <thelus> arche refers to the time of the 6th day of Genesis. Mt 19:8 Moses allowed divorce, but not so in arche, in Eden when God married Adam to Eve. Mr 1:1 ¶ The beginning <arche> of the gospel <euaggelion> of Jesus <Iesous> Christ <Christos>, Here the term refers to the first time something happens, 4,000 after Adam sinned, the arche of the NT when Jesus came to earth in human form. Mr 13:8 beginnings <arche> of sorrows <odin>. Here the term refers to the first time something happens, 6,000 years after Adam sins, the beginnings of the time of the end, in our time year 2800 when these trouble begin. So the term arche does not mean before Gen 1:1, can be any time before or after time begins, it really means "the first time something happens in time". SO we cannot use the term arche as a term for when in time things happened. Hmm? Try another precept upon precept theme Mt 4:1 ¶ Then <tote> was Jesus <Iesous> led up <anago> of <hupo> the Spirit <pneuma> into <eis> the wilderness <eremos> to be tempted <peirazo> of <hupo> the devil <diabolos>. Cross references to Eze 8:3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.Is the image of jealousy, a simile of diabolos? Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Cross references to Ps 6:8 ¶ Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping. Is aven a simile of diabolos? 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>. When did the shedim begin sinning? You say from Gen 6? Hmm? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee Cross references to Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Is satan a simile of diabolos? Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. THis is the strongest, best verse that links the terms satan and diabolos as one label. Why do you split these three terms into three separate groups of opposers? serpent = saraph = satan = diabolos = shadim. Cross references to Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? OK the term diabolos is not quoted directly from OT sources, so the term is really difficult to define, hence I see your confusion. The best verse cross reference is Mt 4:1 cross references Eze 8:3 The spirit of jealousy is the simile of the spirit of diabolos. De 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. So any dysfunctional abomination was seen in the OT as the spirit of diabolos? D" No – the First Archon had offspring.... R" – the First Archon had offspring producing archon demigod like humoids, to spoil humans choosing salvation as their king verses torah The first angel sinned, causing other angels to sin with him, and together banished on earth these sinning angels spoil humans choosing salvation as their king. I see the Gnostic writing as a pagan attempt by a deceiver to change the torah account of where evil comes from. You say Roman Catholics changed this idea....sure they change many things... But the idea of a devil, also labelled satan and serpent is clearly written in the torah. D" The first Archon was created in the First Age Gen 1:1 or 2 that resulted in the choshek The First Archon had offspring = bane elohiym (last name archon) Where are these bane elohiym archon – they are on/in earth as per Gen 1:2 + Rev 12:7 Gen 3 the light is introduced as the solution for the choshek
R" Hmm? nice solution to your Gnostic ideas. D" But how does this fit "war in heaven" with angels banished to earth (Gen 1:2) It doesn't. Therefore the angels who sinned occur before Gen 1:1. Either the Rev 12 made a mistake, or your Gnostic writings is in error. Your error is your inability to define sin
R" I define sin as breaking law, missing God's laws of love. Hence law existed when GOD existed. Laws for sin-offering existed after sin came, gradually, so man could appreciate GOD atonement process. To me if the devil was a murderer from the beginning, this means royal law existed when GOD existed. R" Please add your torah source. Ro 7:8 But <de> sin <hamartia>, taking <lambano> occasion <aphorme> by <dia> the commandment <entole>, wrought <katergazomai> in <en> me <emoi> all manner of <pas> concupiscence <epithumia>. For <gar> without <choris> the law <nomos> sin <hamartia> was dead <nekros>. It says here without law sin-offering was dead, this refers to ceremonial laws for dealing with sinning. The royal laws existed when GOD existed. D" First recorded sin was EveR" No Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Deceive = sin war = sin no place found in heaven = sin cast out = sin These angels sinned long before humans even existed. Really Dave you ignore this verse too? D" I know you love this war word Truth – they were cast out period R" so cast out means they sinned? D" There is no need for a God of evil to be responsible for cold, disease, hunger, greed, and covetness Yester ra of biology takes care of all of itR" and all this ra biology was programmed by GOD? SO God is the Author of sin too? D" If you think Caesar is a god – then bow to him – go for it Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being
If you think Baal is a god worthy of your praise go for it – see if it saves your soul Personally – I think he is just a delusional created being
If you think Allah is a god worthy of your praise – go for it Personally – I think he is just a delusional created beingIf you think your satan deserves your praise – continue on Personally – I think he is just a created being – and your delusional for praising him
R" so when the army of the USA comes to impose vaccines for the so called COV19 viruses that do not exist, you will roll up your arm and take the terms of a delusional created being who rules over you, dictating terms of authority, delusional terms of authority? All Romans hailed Caesar as a delusional strong authority... yep, but does not make it a elohiym power opposing GOD, the elohiym power in heaven. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 10, 2021 15:34:23 GMT -5
D" This violates the your royal law of god – every creature after its own kind R" Are you saying creatures cannot be trained to adopt other functional behaviors?You can train a monkey to maximize his intelligent monkey You can train a dog to maximize his intelligence You can train a bird to maximize his intelligence You cannot train a monkey to be a cow D" No creature big or small change it form or function R" Really?? What if changes in behaviour was wired into the DNA code long agoBehavior = biology You can train a monkey to maximize his intelligent You cannot train a monkey to be a cowSure city raccoons eat differently than the bush raccoons, but hey a raccoon is still a raccoon. The bear was designed to be herbivore, some like panda bear and koala bear still are, the USA kind are mostly herbivore, but learned to catch fish to supplement their diet. But you say intelligence is something creatures do not have, the ability to think, do and adapt?(Wiki) koalas, despite being sometimes called koala bears, are not bears. They are marsupials and more closely related to kangaroos and wombats You can train a monkey to maximize his intelligent You cannot train a monkey to be a cow(wiki) Dingoes also hunt for food alone (mainly at night), although they can hunt bigger prey in packs. The dingo is a carnivore, but like other wild dogs it can live without meat. Actually, like all dogs dingoes should be called omnivores. They can eat meat but don't need to. You make the same mistake that Darwin made – one of his biggest evidentiary arguments was “Darwin’s Finches” Google it for yourself – Darwin though he witness these finches changing species right before his eyes Darwin’s Finches live on small nuts – but drought cased a shortage of small nuts Darwin’s saw the same species with bigger and tougher beaks for bigger and tougher nuts 1974 – two evolutionist went back to study Darwin’s Finches – some naturally have bigger beaks – no more no less – just as some men have bigger noses or feet. In 1000AD we had species canes – wolves – dingos – dogs Since – they have been interbred over and over to maximize various genetic traits Today were have 2000 types of – wait for it – canes Not one of those genetic experiments changed a dog into a different species Genetic drift – is not evolution! D" All your focus is upon the WORLD – the animal – you deny the spiritual R" You give me no proof of a spiritual world, or spirit bodies, no such thing sorry Dave. Where is your proof?Spoken like a true doubterThe truth is scripture – over and over I fully believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ – he did not die – he continued and continued his work in the invisible heavens – until he returned to be witness by many I fully believe in the transfiguration of Jesus Christ – standing next to mortally dead men – yet alive in heaven with Christ Rev 20:4 First Fruits in heaven with God before the First resurrection I have believed this for a long time When God touched my soul – I remember I have encountered – a ‘shadow person’ – it was real to me I was on a church board when another came forward with a similar experience to mine If you say you saw something and do any counseling you find yourself in the same group as the UFO crowd Amazing creditable people – with respected careers - throw it all away by coming forward Yet – there are so many reports All through the ahl – spirits visit man – angels appeared to the shepherds to announce the birth of Christ YES – ROBERT – I believe in the spirit – because I have experience it and been exposed to it You will never ever cause me to doubt it realD" Absolutely – quote me some vegetarian shark stuff from the Jews of the ahl R" OK, why must you doubt GOD's abilities? Isa 11:7 Nice try – the future is not the past Quote me some ahl period Jewish writings about vegetarian sharksD" No herbivore changed into a carnivore R" Many species can eat foods are it needs to adapt, Correction – these creatures are omnivores A shedim is a functional description of a creature supplying you with "ra milk" an idiom meaning "words that make self more important than serving GOD humbly".Absolutely correct – to make self - more important than God This is the mission of the achon as stated by the Nag Hammadi AgreeAND NO MENTION OF YOUR SATAND" If you have been paying attention to yourself – you identified the devil as the leader of the bane elohiym They are not angels – they are archon created for their function R" Oh I see, the devils are created creatures from Yalboath, not angels at all, but archons. YES – all the archon are offspring of the Chief Archon – the Beast/Dragon of Relegations These creatures came from sexual breeding from humans? Your Gen 6 idea. The Nephilim came from the union of archon+woman – correct they are demi-godsWell one way to put this theory to rest is the timing of the Yalboath creatures. They came to be from Gen 6, NOT from the arche, beginning, before Gen 1:1 Again for the 10 Millionth timeYES – all the archon are offspring of the Chief Archon – the Beast/Dragon of Relegations The Nephilim came from the union of archon+woman – correct they are demi-gods After the flood 90% of the archon are locked away in chains in the 4th heaven awaiting release Jude and 2 Peter The 10% that remained – fathered the Rephiem Gen 15:13 Then He said to Abram, “Know for certain that your seed will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and they will be enslaved and oppressed 400 years. Gen 15:16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here—for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” When these remaining archon/Nephilim died – their spirits remain on earth as the evil spirits we encounter I showed you Rev 20 where terms devil, dragon and satan are all thrown into one label.Beast = a noun / Dragon = a noun / Devil = a noun And they can all be the verb satan – I absolutely agree Jesus even called Peter a satan – and God has acted as a satan SATAN IS NOT THE GOD OF EVIL - THAT DIVIDED GOD's KINGDOM AGAINST ITSELFBut you override this because Gen 6 says Yalboath creatures came from humans, the archon demigods came from this time. But this is not "beginning". Twist away Robert – impress me that you are serious
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2021 3:26:32 GMT -5
I have encountered – a ‘shadow person’ – it was real to me
YES – ROBERT – I believe in the spirit – because I have experience it and been exposed to it You will never ever cause me to doubt it real
R" so this experience proves what exactly? What did you actually see or feel?
D"Correction – these creatures are omnivores R" Well lions are what? omnivores, carnivores or herbivores?
In the new earth, the lion eats grass like the ox.
D" YES – all the archon are offspring of the Chief Archon – the Beast/Dragon of Relegations These creatures came from sexual breeding from humans? Your Gen 6 idea. The Nephilim came from the union of archon+woman – correct they are demi-gods R" I see. nice theory, no torah proof though. But at least you are passionate about it.
SO are these archons spirit bodies or flesh bodies like humans?
Can you kill an archon like killing a man?
Do archons eat food like humans need to?
If Yalboath FATHERED his what do you call more Yalboath offspring?
Where is Mrs Yalboath?
And these offspring sexually caused offspring with woman, termed archons. I think you call Yalboath a chief archon, yet his offspring is also called archons? You seem to lack labels for the various kinds of creatures made?
I thought creatures can only mate after their kind, so explain why your sexual thing doesn't violate torah?
D" When these remaining archon/Nephilim died – their spirits remain on earth as the evil spirits we encounter R" I see.
So killing archons would only make the biology part die, the spirit body would still live and frighten you much like ghosts do?
Shalom
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