Is it OK to drink alcohol?

[Dave]

However I asked you about alcohol, is it OK to drink alcohol, what does the torah say?

Jan 31, 2021 20:06:14 GMT -5 Dave said:

So are you saying it's OK to drink grape juice that is fermented with alcohol, as long as the fungus problems are removed? And as long as you don't get drunk and disorderly? to church or home family?

Num 6:3  is to abstain from wine and any other fermented drink. He is not to drink any vinegar made from wine or any fermented drink, or any grape juice, or eat grapes or raisins. 

What am I saying – the Torah law is not about wine (alcohol) it is about grapes – the skin of the grape – and the wine of the grape

Is this a commandment against Beer from Hops – NO – how about Whiskey from Corn – or Rum from Sugar Cane – NO!

as long as the fungus problems are removed?
What is the purpose of the Law – just to make 613 rules for man to follow – NO
All of these laws (with the exception of maybe one) are obvious advice to ensure the survival of the Tribe / people / God’s chosen people

Doctrine vrs Scripture

Num 6:3  is to abstain from wine and any other fermented drink. He is not to drink any vinegar made from wine or any fermented drink, or any grape juice, or eat grapes or raisins. 

Scripture says – to not ingest – grapes, the skin of the grape, the wine of the grape, or the vinegar of the grape
Why does scripture say this – because grapes of Canaan carry a mold that causes kidney failure

Is this a commandment against Beer from Hops – NO – how about Whiskey from Corn – or Rum from Sugar Cane – NO!

Is this a commandment against all alcohol in any form – NO
It is a commandment against - grapes, the skin of the grape, the wine of the grape, or the vinegar of the grape

However there is much scripture against drunkenness – why
Because alcohol – is a strong distraction – something that demands your self-centered attention
As long as you are wallowing in self – you are not focused upon the Lord
As long as you are swimming in self – (yester tov takes a back seat)
As long as (tester ra) is driving – (yester tov) is ignored in the back seat
As long as (yester ra) is driving – you are missing
As long as you are absorbed in SELF - you are chata
As long as you are focused upon (yester ra) – you are moving away – in motion away from God = ra

The sin / the missing / the chata – is not the alcohol – but your focus – on SELF or God

There are specific warning to priest
BECAREFUL – when in meeting – when preaching – the appearance of alcohol is a hindrance to their witness.
Does a beer before church turn the pastor into complete error - NO
But – if that Beer offends Mabel in the back row of his congregation – then that beer is harming his witness
Is there any harm with having a beer with Mexican food – I like it
Is there any harm enjoying a Crem-buli made with cooking sherry – I love it
Is there any harm making a toast to the Lord at Shabbat – I have
And we always have a red wine at Passover

Scripture vrs Doctrine
However I asked you about alcohol, is it OK to drink alcohol, what does the torah say?

IF you have made a vow to God – a man-made ritual form of religious worship
Then any alcohol is a sin

Jan 31, 2021 14:12:08 GMT -5 Dave said:

Question – is dancing – playing cards – skipping rope – playing musical instrument inside a church building – drinking tea – drinking coffee – eating pork – or standing on your head a sin
Answer – yes – if you make it one

Num 30:1 And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.
Num 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

The more man-made worship practices and rituals you invent – the more law you have to follow

IF you have made a vow to God – a man-made ritual form of religious worship
Then any alcohol is a sin

However I asked you about alcohol, is it OK to drink alcohol, what does the torah say?
Torah says OK – alcohol is a gun – you can use it – but men tend to abuse it
Torah says OK – but do not let it interfere with your focus upon God

However – there are many church doctrines out there that demand a tighter walk – a more restrictive man-made code than just don not abuse – they all the way to zero tolerance

Question – What is the best policy – what is the safer bet –
Answer - ABSTINENCE

AND abstinence – is spoken from the pulpit by some groups – at different times - in different cultures

1917 – America drank alcohol
1918 – Women get the right to vote
1919 – America become a dry country
Did anyone stopped drinking – No – it all went underground
This underground was the birth of an “ALCOHOL CARTEL” – Chicago mobsters and gangsters of the 1930
As a result the government had to create the FBI – (The Untouchables)

I grew up in Amish country Indiana 126 mile east of the O’Hara Airport in Chicago
American History – J. Edgar Hoover in Washington DC and Elliot Ness in Chicago formed the FBI
WHY?
Al Capone (and others) gangsters – booze runners with fast cars outrunning the police to smuggle booze
Chicago is in the state of Illinois – East Chicago is across the state line into Indiana
All the bad-guys in Illinois would be chased by Illinois police right up to the state line
Once across the border – Indian police would say – no Indiana law broken hands tied
On the other side of Chicago – is Wisconsin and another state line
Illinois police would chase the gangsters right up to the border and stop

J. Edgar Hoover in Washington DC and Elliot Ness in Chicago formed the FBI
The Untouchables – why are these police untouchable
They are Federal Police – not Illinois, not Indiana, not Wisconsin – NY or Texas
NOW the FBI can cross any state line it need to catch you

1952 – Zero laws against marijuana
1953 – restricted in New Orleans in an attempt to cure crime
1974 – Nelson Rockefeller (13 families) introduces the NY Drug laws that made marijuana and heroin equal under federal law
Did anyone stop smoking – NO – it just went underground
And this underground is now “THE MEXICAN DRUG CARTEL”
Government responds DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) = war on drugs

Think of this – you are a Columbian farmer with 300 acers of prime land
300 acres of marijuana that grows naturally everywhere - marijuana that if groomed could yield $1000s per acer
However – because of the American Drug War – he has to cut down all and he is a criminal if he make any money from it at all
He has to cut it all down to plant coffee – that if groomed could yield $80 an acer
Today – ½ of America says it legal
And the other ½ uses it for medicinal purposes

Cultural doctrines change with trends
Sometime the church leads that change – sometime it changes to keep up with culture

However I asked you about alcohol, is it OK to drink alcohol, what does the torah say?
Is this a commandment against Beer from Hops – NO – how about Whiskey from Corn – or Rum from Sugar Cane – NO!
However - there is much scripture against drunkenness
Why – (1) it can interfere with your focus upon God (loosing focus is the chata)
(2) – it can spoil your witness to others – which interferes with your commission of Jer 1:5 witness
However - IF you have made a vow to God –
a man-made ritual form of religious worship - then any alcohol is a sin
But again – the sin is not the alcohol – the chata is breaking your vow to God

[Dave]

[Source] Larry said:

It is 4:07am and I have just spent the last hour on the phone with Larry. He called to tell me how wrong I am.

Is this a commandment against Beer from Hops – NO – how about Whiskey from Corn – or Rum from Sugar Cane – NO!

Larry points out that Beer, Whiskey, and Rum are all fermented drinks

Num 6:3 (TLV) is to abstain from wine and any other fermented drink. He is not to drink any vinegar made from wine or any fermented drink, or any grape juice, or eat grapes or raisins.

Num 6:3 (OJB) He shall separate himself from yayin and shechar (fermented drink), and shall drink no chometz (vinegar) of yayin, or chometz of shechar, neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat moist grapes, or dried (T.N. i.e., raisins).

Jan 31, 2021 4:32:02 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Robert asked - shekar is a strong drink, and from studying this word, seems alcoholic to me. Alcoholic drink is RA, and it is sinful to drink such drinks.

H7941 – שֵׁכָר - shêkâr - From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.

Am I wrong and why would a Jewish Encylopedia say:

www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/581082/jewish/What-is-Judaisms-take-on-alcohol-consumption.htm
What is Judaism's take on alcohol consumption?
By Menachem Posner
Wine and intoxicating beverages are a fascinating subject when viewed from the Torah's perspective. On one hand, we use wine for kiddush and havdallah on Shabbat and Jewish holidays, and many, many mitzvot are accompanied by a cup of wine. Blessings are recited on a cup of wine beneath the chupah (wedding canopy), at a circumcision, at a Pidyon Haben (the "Redemption of a Firstborn Son"), and let's not forget the four cups of wine we drink at the Passover seder.
(Exo 29:40 – Lev 23:13 – Num 15:5,7,10)
In the Scriptures, wine is described as "bringing joy to G‑d and man" (Judges 9:13). And, indeed, every sacrifice offered in the Holy Temple was accompanied by a wine libation. Because wine is considered to be the "king of beverages" the rabbis coined a special blessing to be recited exclusively on wine: the Hagafen blessing.

And let us not forget the venerated age-old Jewish custom to say l'chaim and wish each other well over a shot glass of schnapps

The depth of understanding translation – verse transliteration

Transliteration = transporting a word from one language into a different language
Example – I spent over 2 years in Japan and they do it a lot. It was fun to listen to their conversations
Blah blah blah WINDOW blah blah blah CHEVERLET blah blah blah BAZOOKA
Window, Chervelt, and Bazooka are not native Japanese words – so they just borrow them
H7941 – שֵׁכָר - shêkâr – is a perfect example – this word existed first – then the Greeks borrowed it
G4608 – σίκερα – sikera – Of Hebrew origin [H7941];

What does it mean in Hebrew – From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.
What does it mean in Greek - Of Hebrew origin [H7941]; an intoxicant, that is, intensely fermented liquor: - strong drink.

Why doesn’t this mean Beer, Whiskey, or Rum

H7941 shêkâr = an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong wine. From H7937

H7937 – שָׁכַר - shâkar - A primitive root; to become tipsy; in a qualified sense, to satiate with a stimulating drink or (figuratively) influence. (Superlative of H8248.): - (be filled with) drink (abundantly), (be, make) drunk (-en), be merry.

So a Hebrew word that means – to be tipsy – to be intoxicated
Somehow is translated as - and any other fermented drink.

So what about - the venerated age-old Jewish custom to say l'chaim and wish each other well over a shot glass of (fermented fruit juice) schnapps

The Answer is word use by association – and this is a 3rd or 4th year translation lesson

English examples of word use by association
To punch means to hit someone
But if I make a list if my favorite drinks – coke, tea, water, milk, punch, wine, Kool aide
This punch belongs to a different group by association and does not mean to hit

I have a boat named Betty
Betty rocks me, Betty aggravates me, I enjoy Betty, she pleases me, and I love Betty
Should my wife make a scene about the Betty I love?

Keeping word use by association in mind look again at

Num 6:3 (OJB) He shall separate himself from yayin and shechar (fermented drink), and shall drink no chometz (vinegar) of yayin, or chometz of shechar, neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat moist grapes, or dried (T.N. i.e., raisins).

Yayin = grape juice wine – it never means anything else
Yayin = grape juice wine of (H6025 – עֵנָב - ‛ênâb - a grape: - (ripe) grape, wine.)
Chometz = vinegar – and what type of vinegar is this verse speaking about = chometz (vinegar) of yayin,
The vinegar in the sentence = grape vinegar = vinegar of H6025
neither shall he drink any grape juice – juice of H6025
nor eat moist grapes – or moist H6025
or dried (T.N. i.e., raisins – of H6025

Now we have
chometz (vinegar) of yayin, or chometz of shechar
Which chometz of shechar is is talking about = chometz (vinegar) of yayin
And which shechar (fermented drink) is it talking about = yayin
What is yayin = Yayin = grape juice wine of (H6025 – עֵנָב - ‛ênâb - a grape: - (ripe) grape, wine.)

This passage is all about RAISINS, GRAPE, GRAPE JUICE, GRAPE VINIGAR, GRAPE WINE, or to be INTOXICATED with GRAPE ALCOHOL
And this is exactly how Judaism sees it

It is not a good translation to say the passages says – raisins, grape, grape, grape, grape + BEER, WSHISKEY, or RUM, cocaine, or vicoden, morphine, or marijuana
This is reading attitude and cultural bias into the verse when those word no not exist

Why – because there are 60 other verses about DO NOT BE INTOXICATED – so this attitude is read into Numbers 6:3 by western thinkers

When actually Numbers 6:3 is about the grape – dried grapes, moist grapes, liquid grapes, grape vinegar, grape alcohol, and being intoxicated by grape alcohol

Conclusion – there is absolutely nothing scripturally wrong with a glass of beer, or a glass of Schanaps
But it is absolutely wrong to be intoxicated on anything – if it hinders / opposes / gets in the way of our commission to witness

Intoxication is said to harm man in two ways
1- it takes your focus off the heaven and the Lord – to just what is brutish/ carnal / worldly
2- it can harm your witness

I say can – not always – because I have been a bar full of drunk Marines discussing scripture
I have not seem combat myself – but I understand a shot of courage in one hand and the bible in the other

But a public forum would not respect a staggering / slurring preacher that smelled of booze NO MATTER HOW CORRECT HIS WORDS
------------------------------------------------
word use by association
3 chapters in a row - 83 verse in a row in Ezekiel are all about the King of Tyre
Yet some force two words in the middle to stand for something completely different
It is a very hard sell

[Deleted]

Isa 29:9 ¶ Stay <mahahh> yourselves, and wonder <tamahh>; cry ye out <sha`a`>, and cry <sha`a`>: they are drunken <shakar>, but not with wine <yayin>; they stagger <nuwa`>, but not with strong drink <shekar>.

The Hebrew word has two forms the verb and noun, both must have the same basic meaning.

Both actions of this word listed here.

Ge 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Hab 2:15 ¶ Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Maybe drunk (verb) and (drunkard) noun, seems OK?

Not sure, but is suggests to me, that "shekar" both verb and noun, refer to drinking something that has increasing alcoholic content in it.

Alcohol is a natural chemical made by our muscles, so the body does know this substance, it's the continual drinking too much of it, that is toxic to our soul.

Same principle applies to eating too much sucrose sugar.

Any food eaten to excess seems bad for you, so the principal here is to do all things in moderation and have temperance or self control, in all things.

Shalom

[Dave]

Maybe drunk (verb) and (drunkard) noun, seems OK?

Not sure, but is suggests to me, that "shekar" both verb and noun, refer to drinking something that has increasing alcoholic content in it.

It is not the alcohol – alcohol is not the missing
The Law of Moses says – Raisins, grapes, skin of the grape, wine of the grape, or drunkenness on grape wine

Alcohol is not the issue
The mold that grows on the outside of the grape causes kidney failure
The Laws of Moses were to keep Israel healthy and strong

Over consumption (drunkenness) leads to loss of focus upon God - that is the missing

If you stand up and claim to be a witness for the Lord
If alcohol spoils your witness to others – then spoiling your witness is the missing

If you have adopted a more strict alcohol man-made code and made a vow to God
Then any alcohol (even one small drop) is a missing

[Deleted]

So Dave, by not writing clearly, and leaving parts out,

You are saying it's OK to drink alcoholic drinks, as long as you remove the mold from it (the real source of harm), you do not consider the compound alcohol to be a toxin at all, in any concentration.

Why would man make vows and inflict themselves with additional precepts, apart from the precepts of God?

It also says we are not to eat any meat that has died of itself. For example is a cow had cancer, and thus died of a cancer, we are not to eat the meat, even though the cow is a so called clean animal, in this case the animal died of some disease we are to avoid by not eating it.

Care to explain how your health rules work, ie from the Torah?

SHalom

[Dave]

So Dave, by not writing clearly, and leaving parts out,
You are saying it's OK to drink alcoholic drinks, … you do not consider the compound alcohol to be a toxin at all, in any concentration.

What did I leave out and what is not clear
Alcohol is not a toxin – consumption of alcohol will not kill you
Abuse of alcohol will

Alcohol use: Weighing risks and benefits - Mayo Clinic
Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits, such as:
Reducing your risk of developing and dying of heart disease.
Possibly reducing your risk of ischemic stroke (when the arteries to your brain become narrowed or blocked, causing severely reduced blood flow)
Possibly reducing your risk of diabetes.

Do doctors ever prescribe alcohol?
A physician may prescribe and/or administer liquor to a patient. A pharmacy may store and dispense alcohol, like any other legend drug to a patient. A hospital may administer liquor to any patient for medicinal purposes.

Truth – if your wife is having a baby in your car on the way to the hospital – 4 shots of whiskey back to back will stop her contractions – buying you time to reach medical professionals

Alcohol is not a toxin – consumption of alcohol will not kill you
Abuse of alcohol will

A drink of alcohol does not spoil your salvation – or interfere with your respect and reverence for the Lord
Abuse of alcohol can and does get in the way of your focus upon the Lord

And this has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law not to consume raisins, grapes, the skin of the grape, grape juice, grape vinegar, grape wine, or being intoxicated on grape wine

Num 6:3 (OJB) He shall separate himself from yayin and shechar (fermented drink), and shall drink no chometz (vinegar) of yayin, or chometz of shechar, neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat moist grapes, or dried (T.N. i.e., raisins).

Why would man make vows and inflict themselves with additional precepts, apart from the precepts of God?

My mother 1912-2007 was never allowed to dance – even tapping your foot to music was a sin
My wife prayed to the pope only until she was 25
I come from Amish Country – orthodox wear only plain colorless – reformed can wear prints – you cannot own or drive a car, but you can pay another for a ride – all the men wear hats, if it is too hot you can take off your hat but not your shirt.

There are a few misguided churches that include posioness snakes in their religious worship
because thay have a doctrine build upon one stand alone verse

There are some "Christian" doctrins built are two words of one verse

The Mormons believe it a sin to drink tea, coffee, carbonated drinks, or smoke tobacco

Why would man make vows and inflict themselves with additional precepts
Because Church doctrine trumps scripture

[Deleted]

I can see why you can't stand church made rules. I feel your pain.

As for alcohol, yes it is a chemical the body tolerates, but is it excreted as a toxin. Just as CO2 is a toxin.

Drinking excessive CO2 in soda water is also just as bad, as drinking too much alcohol too.

When is a compound found in nature a toxin?

Shalom