Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2021 16:52:15 GMT -5
Nice post Dave
SDA communion wine is un-fermented grape juice. There is a Hebrew word for this grape product, foot pressed first flow of juice from the grape vat.
So are you saying it's OK to drink grape juice that is fermented with alcohol, as long as the fungus problems are removed? And as long as you don't get drunk and disorderly? to church or home family?
Yes you point out a SDA doctrine is the Great Controversy ...
you have no problem saying the archons oppose mankind.
you say they do not oppose God.
Not sure how this works in practice, after all we have discussed, if I want free will creatures to yester tov me in love, these functional creatures just test/tempt my creatures to do yester ra.
Not sure I would agree with just test/tempt man. Some archons defiled woman creating giants, demigod humans, making GMO forms, demon possession, etc, etc. Hardly call Sodom a nice town, you could get killed just visiting the place.
I find these functionally designed creatures of God's will, do far more harm than God would like. God sends a global flood, God wipes our genetic blood lines of giant GMO breeding, etc, sounds like to me far more evil than just testing/tempting? Don't you think?
In fact, really to be honest such depravity resulting from man listening to these functionally approved testers/tempters, seems like they actually oppose salvation in man.
Since salvation in man comes from God, and the archons oppose man, arn't they also opposing salvation, and hence opposing God, who is salvation? Your logic just does not follow.
gnosticismexplained.org/archons/
Surely you don't agree with this article?
In Gnosticism, the archons (from Greek arkhon, “ruler”[1]) were malevolent, sadistic beings who controlled the earth, as well as many of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of humans. They assisted their master, the demiurge, with the creation of the world, and continued to help him administer his oppressive rule.
Rulers? you don't like the idea of rulers?
Despite their sometimes lacking in competence, the archons were extremely powerful beings whom the Gnostics dreaded. The Reality of the Archons quotes Ephesians 6:12 (“Our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the world and the spiritual hosts of wickedness”) to make the point that the archons were what stood between humankind and salvation.[8] It was they whom Christ had been sent to earth to overcome.
SO Jesus must naturally oppose these rulers? But you don't like this idea of opposing rulers on earth?
But it gets worse: since the archons had created humans in the first place, they had created humans to be extremely susceptible to their influence, and to be almost unable to resist it. Only the divine spark from Heaven, which had slipped into creation despite the archons’ intentions, gave people any kind of a chance of resisting the archons’ temptations.
I thought GOD created man, the archons were not present, nor allowed to help, as Gnsotics claim.
Most people were just the puppets of the archons. Thus, the normal, default state of humans was literal demonic possession.[10]
I thought you say archons just suggest things....
It’s fitting that the Gnostics identified the archons with the entities that were worshiped as pagan gods.[11] How could you fail to worship a god that already possesses and controls you?
Archons are gods, possessing humans, correct. Dave would disagree with this Great Controversy idea.
For the Gnostics, when someone tried to gain salvation – which they called “gnosis” and characterized as mystical insight rather than intellectual belief or moral action – his or her spirit ascended up through the celestial spheres toward Heaven. The spirit of the Gnostic made this journey both during the Gnostic’s life in moments of ecstatic enlightenment and after death to reach its final resting place. But as the spirit ascended to each sphere, the archon who presided over that sphere would detain the spirit and ask it a series of questions. If the spirit didn’t know how to answer those questions properly – if its gnosis wasn’t yet fully realized – then the archon would be able to prevent it from ascending any higher. It would be trapped by the archons and still subject to their tyranny.[18]
Weird. Not found in torah. So opposing salvation at various levels beyond mortal death, must be opposing God , but Dave would disagree with this idea.
Paul never develops this doctrine directly or systematically. Instead, his letters (including the letters written by others in his name) seem to just take it for granted that the world is ruled by evil spiritual powers of some sort. Much the same can be said for some of the other texts that would later come to be included in the New Testament. The Gospel of Matthew (4:8), the Gospel of Luke (4:6), the Gospel of John (12:31, 14:30, and 16:11) and 1 John (5:19) all say that Satan or a similar being (whom the Gnostics equated with the demiurge, the chief of the archons) is in control of the world. The Gospel of John even specifically calls this being “the archon of this world.”[24]
Yet this chief archon, is never opposing God, just doing the will of the Father intended.
The New Testament writers therefore presupposed that the world is ruled by villainous spiritual beings of one sort or another. This has long been recognized by scholars of the New Testament, who have usually attributed it to the fact that it was taken for granted back then that spiritual beings – pagan gods – controlled the elements and often directed events on earth. Rather than deny the existence of pagan gods altogether, the New Testament authors simply demoted them to demons.[25] They also drew from the apocalyptic Judaism out of which Christianity arose, which posited that, for obscure reasons, God had allowed Satan to gain control of the world at some point in the past.
Really, did God allow Satan to gain control of the world in the past?
D" Not saying that God makes mistakes – just saying your Roman can is not as perfect as you claim
R correct. God does not make mistakes, but humans do, even writing the torah perhaps, and reading and understanding the torah, yes, cultural mistakes by humans. Some German SDA cultural groups drink alcholic wine every meal, while Australian SDA vegan groups don't. Some Australian SDA groups drink coffee, while other SDA groups don't. So yes humans make mistakes, we are held accountable to our own salvation.
All year I have not battled so much over Satan, but over your disdain for a Great Controversy.
God cannot create relationships. God creates creatures who perfectly love in relationships, but each creature chooses how their loving relationship continues.
I cannot fathom your idea of GOD wanting to test relationships when GOD cannot create relationships.
Why did the prodigal Son return? Because He had lost all his money, ran out of food to eat, did the archons tempt him too much.... Why did the Son return? The Father was always looking for the return.
God cannot create relationship, so why would God want to test something God does not own.
There is a story of sinners repenting, Simon loves little since he feels forgiven little, but Mary loves much because she was forgiven much. What causes this attitude of gratitude? Why doesn't Simon love as much as Mary? Pride, is the only answer I know, Simon was not really returning to God, only partially so.
Raping violently your wife will never get her to love you more? Testing like this does not work. So something really off putting with your logic to think archons are not opposing God. They have to be.
How many people from Sodom were saved? None, except Lot and two daughters. Even than they were not really in love with GOD fully.
Of the million saved in the Exodus, how many made it to the promised land? two, Joshua and Caleb.
All the testing did not make Israel love God more, so something wrong with your logic, that using archons to tempt Israel gets them to repent and return to God, it simply does not work.
You assume archons only test tempt man. I find when Adam sinned, such angelic powers might have also changed our DNA to become more like them in nature, science calls this epi-genetics. Hebrew word aven, suggests the borning of mischief. Our flesh is permanently wired by the DNA to be RA like, evil like and sinful like, because of the intentional changed DNA on account of sinning angels changing this once perfect code.
I do not say second Creators here, just SPOILERS spoiling Creation, these are Hebrew words too. The agents that oppose GOD by choosing to daily sin, are spoilers who spoil God's creation. But you deny this, and say this negative entropy and archon creatures is a part of God planned will.
Really? Than there is no relationship free to make free will decisions. It's all planned and controlled by GOD. SO GOD can create relationships? God caused the prodigal son to repent and return, that's why the Father looked and waited ? DO I buy into this idea? No
The Father looked daily because love looks. The Father owns no relationship. The Provider loves, The Responder loves back. NO body owns the relationship, it's the spirit essence of relational love. Always free and full of emotion.
The prodigal reasoned, love is cognitive, my slaves live better than I. So he wanted this love...
He returned to the love...not wanting materialism, or money or status, just the love he missed...
When provider love and responder love are separated, the relationship dies. The love breaks and cries, feels sad and is broken. Only when the full circuit is united does the love perfectly flow.
This is true gnosis, not testing and tempting.
Shalom
SDA communion wine is un-fermented grape juice. There is a Hebrew word for this grape product, foot pressed first flow of juice from the grape vat.
So are you saying it's OK to drink grape juice that is fermented with alcohol, as long as the fungus problems are removed? And as long as you don't get drunk and disorderly? to church or home family?
Yes you point out a SDA doctrine is the Great Controversy ...
you have no problem saying the archons oppose mankind.
you say they do not oppose God.
Not sure how this works in practice, after all we have discussed, if I want free will creatures to yester tov me in love, these functional creatures just test/tempt my creatures to do yester ra.
Not sure I would agree with just test/tempt man. Some archons defiled woman creating giants, demigod humans, making GMO forms, demon possession, etc, etc. Hardly call Sodom a nice town, you could get killed just visiting the place.
I find these functionally designed creatures of God's will, do far more harm than God would like. God sends a global flood, God wipes our genetic blood lines of giant GMO breeding, etc, sounds like to me far more evil than just testing/tempting? Don't you think?
In fact, really to be honest such depravity resulting from man listening to these functionally approved testers/tempters, seems like they actually oppose salvation in man.
Since salvation in man comes from God, and the archons oppose man, arn't they also opposing salvation, and hence opposing God, who is salvation? Your logic just does not follow.
gnosticismexplained.org/archons/
Surely you don't agree with this article?
In Gnosticism, the archons (from Greek arkhon, “ruler”[1]) were malevolent, sadistic beings who controlled the earth, as well as many of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of humans. They assisted their master, the demiurge, with the creation of the world, and continued to help him administer his oppressive rule.
Rulers? you don't like the idea of rulers?
Despite their sometimes lacking in competence, the archons were extremely powerful beings whom the Gnostics dreaded. The Reality of the Archons quotes Ephesians 6:12 (“Our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the world and the spiritual hosts of wickedness”) to make the point that the archons were what stood between humankind and salvation.[8] It was they whom Christ had been sent to earth to overcome.
SO Jesus must naturally oppose these rulers? But you don't like this idea of opposing rulers on earth?
But it gets worse: since the archons had created humans in the first place, they had created humans to be extremely susceptible to their influence, and to be almost unable to resist it. Only the divine spark from Heaven, which had slipped into creation despite the archons’ intentions, gave people any kind of a chance of resisting the archons’ temptations.
I thought GOD created man, the archons were not present, nor allowed to help, as Gnsotics claim.
Most people were just the puppets of the archons. Thus, the normal, default state of humans was literal demonic possession.[10]
I thought you say archons just suggest things....
It’s fitting that the Gnostics identified the archons with the entities that were worshiped as pagan gods.[11] How could you fail to worship a god that already possesses and controls you?
Archons are gods, possessing humans, correct. Dave would disagree with this Great Controversy idea.
For the Gnostics, when someone tried to gain salvation – which they called “gnosis” and characterized as mystical insight rather than intellectual belief or moral action – his or her spirit ascended up through the celestial spheres toward Heaven. The spirit of the Gnostic made this journey both during the Gnostic’s life in moments of ecstatic enlightenment and after death to reach its final resting place. But as the spirit ascended to each sphere, the archon who presided over that sphere would detain the spirit and ask it a series of questions. If the spirit didn’t know how to answer those questions properly – if its gnosis wasn’t yet fully realized – then the archon would be able to prevent it from ascending any higher. It would be trapped by the archons and still subject to their tyranny.[18]
Weird. Not found in torah. So opposing salvation at various levels beyond mortal death, must be opposing God , but Dave would disagree with this idea.
Paul never develops this doctrine directly or systematically. Instead, his letters (including the letters written by others in his name) seem to just take it for granted that the world is ruled by evil spiritual powers of some sort. Much the same can be said for some of the other texts that would later come to be included in the New Testament. The Gospel of Matthew (4:8), the Gospel of Luke (4:6), the Gospel of John (12:31, 14:30, and 16:11) and 1 John (5:19) all say that Satan or a similar being (whom the Gnostics equated with the demiurge, the chief of the archons) is in control of the world. The Gospel of John even specifically calls this being “the archon of this world.”[24]
Yet this chief archon, is never opposing God, just doing the will of the Father intended.
The New Testament writers therefore presupposed that the world is ruled by villainous spiritual beings of one sort or another. This has long been recognized by scholars of the New Testament, who have usually attributed it to the fact that it was taken for granted back then that spiritual beings – pagan gods – controlled the elements and often directed events on earth. Rather than deny the existence of pagan gods altogether, the New Testament authors simply demoted them to demons.[25] They also drew from the apocalyptic Judaism out of which Christianity arose, which posited that, for obscure reasons, God had allowed Satan to gain control of the world at some point in the past.
Really, did God allow Satan to gain control of the world in the past?
D" Not saying that God makes mistakes – just saying your Roman can is not as perfect as you claim
R correct. God does not make mistakes, but humans do, even writing the torah perhaps, and reading and understanding the torah, yes, cultural mistakes by humans. Some German SDA cultural groups drink alcholic wine every meal, while Australian SDA vegan groups don't. Some Australian SDA groups drink coffee, while other SDA groups don't. So yes humans make mistakes, we are held accountable to our own salvation.
All year I have not battled so much over Satan, but over your disdain for a Great Controversy.
God cannot create relationships. God creates creatures who perfectly love in relationships, but each creature chooses how their loving relationship continues.
I cannot fathom your idea of GOD wanting to test relationships when GOD cannot create relationships.
Why did the prodigal Son return? Because He had lost all his money, ran out of food to eat, did the archons tempt him too much.... Why did the Son return? The Father was always looking for the return.
God cannot create relationship, so why would God want to test something God does not own.
There is a story of sinners repenting, Simon loves little since he feels forgiven little, but Mary loves much because she was forgiven much. What causes this attitude of gratitude? Why doesn't Simon love as much as Mary? Pride, is the only answer I know, Simon was not really returning to God, only partially so.
Raping violently your wife will never get her to love you more? Testing like this does not work. So something really off putting with your logic to think archons are not opposing God. They have to be.
How many people from Sodom were saved? None, except Lot and two daughters. Even than they were not really in love with GOD fully.
Of the million saved in the Exodus, how many made it to the promised land? two, Joshua and Caleb.
All the testing did not make Israel love God more, so something wrong with your logic, that using archons to tempt Israel gets them to repent and return to God, it simply does not work.
You assume archons only test tempt man. I find when Adam sinned, such angelic powers might have also changed our DNA to become more like them in nature, science calls this epi-genetics. Hebrew word aven, suggests the borning of mischief. Our flesh is permanently wired by the DNA to be RA like, evil like and sinful like, because of the intentional changed DNA on account of sinning angels changing this once perfect code.
I do not say second Creators here, just SPOILERS spoiling Creation, these are Hebrew words too. The agents that oppose GOD by choosing to daily sin, are spoilers who spoil God's creation. But you deny this, and say this negative entropy and archon creatures is a part of God planned will.
Really? Than there is no relationship free to make free will decisions. It's all planned and controlled by GOD. SO GOD can create relationships? God caused the prodigal son to repent and return, that's why the Father looked and waited ? DO I buy into this idea? No
The Father looked daily because love looks. The Father owns no relationship. The Provider loves, The Responder loves back. NO body owns the relationship, it's the spirit essence of relational love. Always free and full of emotion.
The prodigal reasoned, love is cognitive, my slaves live better than I. So he wanted this love...
He returned to the love...not wanting materialism, or money or status, just the love he missed...
When provider love and responder love are separated, the relationship dies. The love breaks and cries, feels sad and is broken. Only when the full circuit is united does the love perfectly flow.
This is true gnosis, not testing and tempting.
Shalom