Post by Dave on Dec 17, 2020 18:22:00 GMT -5
Dec 17, 2020 4:37:10 GMT -5 @robertt said:
I am sorry you see the Great Controversy in this way Dave.I would agree that the term "satan" is a function, but it also applies to a sinning heavenly Being, that opposes GOD. Any creature who sins by definition, also opposes God.
I guess the Ezekiel metaphor that says cherub chata, is something that makes us different. It is torah, inspired we assume, but you happily ignore this verse, and others that support it.
Happy Xmas
We do not celibarate Xmass
When the girls were little - they asked about santa
Santa - was always you - or me - or mom - or your sister
We stopped decorating when the girls grew tired of making the decorations
We do exchange Hanauka gifts- because it is fun - and fun to remember that ultimate gift
Just things we need anyway - but this is an excuse to wrap things up and have a family meal
Question for an SDA - why do Jews set a empty chair for the Spirit of Elijah
If he is just in the grave
Robert – as we all begin our search for the kingdom of God – we are all led to a religious source of education – CHURCH
And we begin there
If you become a Catholic – you can be good one and learn Catholic things
If you become a Mormon – you can be a good Mormon and learn Mormon things
You have become an SDA – and you have learned SDA things
The problem is that SDA theology does not begin until the 1830s
You need to step back and look at Christianity from the outside
Satan – what dose Judaism say
What was the theology all through the age of the Jew
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan
Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress.He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.
All Jewish theology supports – that satan is a good and faithful servant for the Lord
And it cannot be a sin to serve the Lord
What does Western Judeo-Christian Culture (Roman Christendom) say about satan and where do their ideas come from
I have a lot of books in my libary - I chose this one just because it was handy - it does represent the history of the church withour religious bias (or so the author claims)
Wheatley, D. (1971) The Devil and all his works, McGrw-Hill Inc, London
Pg 212
One school of thought was the opinion that the Devil, as one of God’s principle lieutenants, had been dispatched to earth on a special mission. This was to be the agent provocateur and go about tempting to do evil. If so, it does not seem that one can attach much blame to him; and to send him on a mission would certainly be in keeping with what we are told about he did to poor Job, and other unfortunates.
Gosh I wonder where this 100% Jewish though originated
Pg 211
In the Old Testament there were many references to evil spirits: But it was not until after the death of Christ that any attempt was made to determine the nature of the Devil and the part he plays in relation to mankind. In this the early Christian Fathers made up for lost time. They spent countless hours wrangling on the subject. St Cyprian maintained that it was seeing God create man in his own image that caused Lucifer to rebel. Tertullian too, asserts that it was jealously of Adam. The Mohammedans also believed that to be the case, as the version of the fall given in the Koran is that Iblis – their name for Lucifer – refused to worship Adam at the Deities command, protesting, ‘I am more excellent that he; for thou hast creates me of fire, and thou has created him of clay.’
But St Hilary, St Ambrose, and St Jerome all followed Origen and denied this. They maintained it was not jealously, but Pride, that led to Lucifer’s fall. For had he not said (Isaiah 14:13-14) ’I will exalt my throne above the stars of God … I will be like the Most High’? And the Great St Augustine also took this view, so it triumphed and became the dogma of the Church.
But it was not until after the death of Christ that any attempt was made to determine the nature of the Devil and the part he plays in relation to mankind.
This is Roman Edit bias – from the Jewish encyclopedia you see the Rabbis spoke a lot about it
King Solomon – wrote Books about it – the Rabbis do not discredit those Books – they keep them in their library and use them in their Kabbalah (which is just Jewish dogma / doctrine) as opposes to Christian Commentary and doctrine
After Christ – Our Christian Fathers invented the satan you believe in – and it became the dogma of the Catholic Church and all that has grown from Western Roman Christendom
Pg 214
… the Devil achieved one of his greatest victories by persuading Rome to decree that its priest should remain celibate. When it expected the tens of thousands of priest who were then officiating throughout Europe – the majority of whom must have been healthy, virile men – all to lead a life of unbroken chastity, it was asking the impossible. … In earlier times, most priest had normal lives of marries men.
Ever wonder why the Pope isn’t even qualified to be an Elder of the church
1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be beyond criticism—the husband of one wife, clear-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
Pg 167
Martin Luther said that in any religion that preaches salvation need an adversary to be saved from
This attitude is 100% Machiavelli – who was a contemporary of Luther
To control the population – you need to rally the masses – you need to focus their attention upon a common enemy
And your catholic two god controversy was born – it is central to all Catholicism
Pg 214
The policy of the Catholic Church in Latin America is to collect numbers of people who will accept baptism, and attend Mass, and make contributions to support the priesthood, as an insurance against the Christian God doing them harm. If they can be persuaded to abandon their old gods and accept the faith, that is all to the good
The Baptist Church takes this doctrine of ‘fear’ to it extreme – BELIVE OR BURN IN HELL
Robert – you say you wish to only return to the Torah
You say you would attend a messianic Church if you found one
But you say everything the Jews believe is in error – only Roman satan is real
The entire point of the Jewish experience is to achieve a Personal Relationship with the Creator
The entire point of the Christian experience is that very same Personal Relationship
Any theology that teaches anything less is not Jewish – is not about ONE GOD who is absolute
Dec 10, 2020 4:45:29 GMT -5 @robertt said:
Now these two models are different between us. I could tell you where our first SIN came from that caused our propensities of sin to be inherited, that would Adam. I could tell you further where Adam's sinning influence came from, and that would a sinning angel who deceived Eve to sin.
But the bottom line is my model speaks of SIN, and how God and Man both overcome the sin problem.
Sin – is your choice between God and self
You can NOT blame it on someone else – some other cause – there is no other reason for your sin other than YOU
God gave you the ability to choose – choose God
Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”
God established the Contest between man and archon -
God did it - God's Will - God's Plan - God is the only designer
cherub chata, is something that makes us different. It is torah, inspired we assume, but you happily ignore this verse, and others that support it.
I do not ignore this verse about man - the only creature that can choose
Man who was in heaven with God and witness Eden
Man - who will ultimately judge angels
I have given you a long time to provide me with one Rabbi that agrees with your view of cherub chata
You have provided none
this verse, and others that support it.
We have been over each and every verse - proving in each case that satan opposes man
Just as God established in Gen 3:15
God knew what would happen if He set the stage - and He did it anyway
God's Will - God's Plan - God's Design
Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi Library
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us
And why does the Contest have to be so hard - "human rights violations" - death, carnage, and disease?
Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”
The Exegesis on the Soul - The Nag Hammadi Library
Again he said (cf. Lk 14:26), "If one does not hate his soul he cannot follow me." For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."
And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"
You can mock this as Gnostic - but it is more Christian than anything you have presented as SDA doctrine