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Post by Dave on Dec 5, 2020 9:43:23 GMT -5
D: " But your SDA has taught you to elevate satan as worshipR your write mocking words Dave, I do not mock you, or your Gnostic words. D: " If your only source of reference is the Creation Institute - I MOCK all your credibilityR I see, so you are stuck in your evidence and your confusion? I do not follow man's logic, I use Scripture first and only Scripture Rob replies: "From these comments, I get the idea that the "formless earth and void, together with darkness" is exactly the kind of state that arises when GOD is not there, and all God's powers are drained, hence everything runs down into choas. Why did this happen? Because Satan and his sinning angels live there, and GOD doesn't sustain this scenario. In other words your looking at what happens when sinning runs God's world, God leaves the world to it's own falling apart and running down. I suggest to you that GOD does NOT ever create a world like this, Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God satan, and the sky shows His satan's handiwork. Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God satan is plain to them—for God satan has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His satan’s invisible attributes — His satan’s eternal power and His satan’s divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, Instead they give all the credit to your satan – not God And refuse to acknowledge the evidence – because you refuse to follow logic Man has no soul – there is no such thing as spirit – so the idea of being a spiritual Christian is VOID In fact – it is a sin to think you have a soul First Fruits are for special case of other people – not us Your only goal is the grave and the First Resurrection You are welcome to put all your faith into this doctrine – every man is an separate and independent being – we each make own choices A Different religionThe Jews – The Messianic Jews – and us Gnostics will give all the credit – all the praise – to an absolute God, whose Will is being done exactly as He Planned - on earth as in heavenPsa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God satan, and the sky shows His handiwork. Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God satan is plain to them—for God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 His satan’s invisible attributes — His satan’s eternal power and His satan’s divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse— ( so much evidence of Incremental Creation – overwhelming actually)Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, (much agreement of Intelligent Design) they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, (their satan/archon controlled funding won’t allow them to say it)Judaism – Messianic Judaism – and Gnosticism are completely God centricFrom Abraham to Herod – The Torah and the religion was 100% God centric Jesus Christ come along – and all of the First Christians were Messianic Jews And 100% Christ centric Rome assumes authority – by the sword and persecution of the First Christians And all Catholicism is satan centric – as you have clearly proven and all you need are two versesMy response to the Roman invitation = NO THANKSI would rather be a Messianic Jew
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 15:37:22 GMT -5
D: "I would rather be a Messianic Jew
R : I see myself as a Messianic Hebrew.
If you were a Messianic Jew, why don't you follow torah only. You add Gnostic writings to the torah? In all my dealings with you, I quote Hebrew, what Hebrews wrote.
You quote Gnostic writings, and Greek, not Hebrew.
I would say you follow Simon Magnus, the Greek magician who founded the Roman Catholic church ideology rather the Simon Peter, who wrote and spoke only Hebrew. Both Simons lives at the same time, one near Rome, the other only went there at the end of his life. Simon Magnus mostly wrote Greek and Greek ideas. Simon Peter wrote Hebrew and spoke Hebrew torah idea.
My problem with Jews is that don't follow their own Hebrew words and writings. For example in poetry simile, it says about King Tyre that "one cherub also chata", just as King Tyre did. This is a poetry simile, a way of making comparisons so we see into a world that is not just about humans. But you deny this. Jews also deny this. "cherub" is the only word that defines "Angels" but Jews deny this too, they list other Hebrew words as "angel" words too. Such as "saraph" which means "burning".
D: "The Jews – The Messianic Jews – and us Gnostics will give all the credit – all the praise – to an absolute God, whose Will is being done exactly as He Planned - on earth as in heaven
R "and us Gnostics" ....no you don't.
Your writings say archons helped create man. Torah never says this.
Your writings say HS created archons, the torah never says this.
Your writings say "Satan" is a friendly angel doing a bad job, torah never says this.
The Hebrew has a Hebrew word meaning "oppose and opposer" but you deny this. Your writings say the "opposer" is a friend helping to test man. This is a violation of the meaning of the word "oppose/opposer"
Why did GOD function as an opposer to Baalim on his ass? Because this man loves sinning, so GOD functionally opposes the sinner, and gets him to bless Israel despite being a wicked man naturally.
This us a logical use of "satan" to a sinner who loves sinning, God opposes the sinner and gets him to bless rather than curse Israel. So is GOD an opposer to sinning? Absolutely GOD is. God hates sinning, and opposes sinning. That's why the Hebrew word exists in the torah.
Now torah also speaks of a cherub who does chata, hence sinning against GOD. Thus God opposes the sinning in this angel, but still loves the angel. But the sinning angel refuses to repent and come back to God's love. SO God banishes the sinning angels to earth, long before mankind existed, long before the Creation.
I can see your view a little with the roman edit hijacking the term "hey-satan" as some spiritual Satan being, but the term really refers to an angel who is opposing GOD.
Creatures who do sinning are by definition "opposing GOD". Those who are straight (they hold Jesus hand) do some sinning that is NOT unto death (1 John 5), so not all sinning opposes GOD, as some wanting to love GOD, live under God's grace, because Jesus saved them. But under normal situations any sin is my definition, opposing GOD. That's why the Hebrew word exists, to explain what sin does, when we sin. Sin causes opposition.
This is why earth, a formless rock just floated in space, with nowhere to go, was in fact formless. It was void and formless, because sinning angels lived there, and GOD wasn't there to keep that place functional anymore.
But when GOD decided to create a new creation around earth, for earth, despite some sinning angels already there, GOD was able to make the Creation perfectly tov.
The heavens declare the perfect world of GOD. You mock me by elevating Satan into some Creator. We have only one Creator. That is GOD.
Yet you have archons helping create mankind. Your the one elevating archons, mere creatures doing creating. I would never say such a thing.
D: " as you have clearly proven and all you need are two verses
My response to the Roman invitation = NO THANKS
R these two verses are torah, written by Jews, inspired by GOD to write them. You refuse to be a Jew, because you ignore what Jews wrote,
SO you follow Greek writings instead, not torah the Jews wrote.
But not many Jews also read their own torah, they follow human writings rather than torah.
Roman edit did not write "cherub chata", the inspired Ezekiel did, a Jew.
By definition if you don't follow torah, you're not Hebrew. Jesus said not a 'yud or a hey' will disappear from torah until all is complete. Jesus was a Hebrew teacher, not a Greek teacher, not a Gnostic teacher either. He was a Jew and followed the torah.
He even translated Hebrew to Hebrew readers who didn't read Hebrew very well (Luke 24:26), because they were blind to see a pierced Messiah in the torah. But the Essenes knew of a pierced Messiah. Some Jews did read torah correctly, many also did not.
Shalom, happy Sabbath, the day Hebrews keep special
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2020 22:40:39 GMT -5
D: "I would rather be a Messianic Jew R : I see myself as a Messianic Hebrew.
If you were a Messianic Jew, why don't you follow torah only. You add Gnostic writings to the torah? Because the agl was added by the disciples In all my dealings with you, I quote Hebrew, what Hebrews wrote. But yet – you do not understand Judaism at all You do not read Hebrew – you do not translate Hebrew You transliterate Hebrew words with no respect for verb tense or grammar
I would say you follow Simon Magnus Nice try – you know what you are saying is not factual I will forgive you for trying to stretch the truth to support your satan doctrine
My problem with Jews is that don't follow their own Hebrew words and writings. For example in poetry simile, it says about King Tyre that "one cherub also chata", just as King Tyre did. This is a poetry simile, a way of making comparisons so we see into a world that is not just about humans. But you deny this. Jews also deny this. "cherub" is the only word that defines "Angels" but Jews deny this too, they list other Hebrew words as "angel" words too. Such as "saraph" which means "burning".
If you had a command of all the Torah – you would feel silly saying such absolute judgments Ezk 28 is 100% about a man – King Tyre Ezk 28 is about anyman – that gets too big for his britches Sure it can also apply to the First Archon when he spoke his first expression of self
But hold the metaphor above all scripture
D: "The Jews – The Messianic Jews – and us Gnostics will give all the credit – all the praise – to an absolute God, whose Will is being done exactly as He Planned - on earth as in heaven
Your writings say archons helped create man. Torah never says this. Scripture says – “let us” – implies more than one strong authority Praise God whose Will is being done exactly as He Planned – on earth as in heaven
Your writings say HS created archons, the torah never says this. YES! - the HS = God = Christ – and the creator is the only creator
Your writings say "Satan" is a friendly angel doing a bad job, torah never says this. NEVER? 1 Kings 22:13-19 – God asked for a volunteer to be the deceiving spirit to facilitate God Will In each of the 23 + 49 verses – satan is 100% obedient to God
The Hebrew has a Hebrew word meaning "oppose and opposer" Creatures who do sinning are by definition "opposing GOD". You are so brainwashed – If I choose to sin I am opposing myself – my own salvation
SIN = the choice between God and Self – no more or less Eve lying was not a disobedience to God – and nothing happened Eve disobeying God was in eating the fruit – because she was given that law to obey
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Post by Dave on Dec 7, 2020 12:58:17 GMT -5
Choices and BlameGen 3:11 (TLV) Then He said, “Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten from the Tree from which I commanded you not to eat?” Gen 3:12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me—she gave me of the Tree, and I ate.” Gen 3:13 Adonai Elohim said to the woman, “What did you do?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me and I ate.” Interesting thing about man (Adam) – never taking personal responsibility for his own actionsMan blamed it on the Woman Eve blamed it on the Serpent God said – Sorry – your choice to chata was your own choice – no one forced you – no one chose for you You and I are discussing sin And you immediately blame it on someone else – just like man – just like EveOnce long before man existed "cherub chata" tells me the highest ranking angel near the Godhead sinned. This free will angel chose to sin more over time, causing other angels to also leave their first estate (what Jude says). Than there was war in heaven (what Rev says) so the angel assumed to take over the Most High (what Isaiah says). So the Father banished all these angels to planet earth (what Rev says). This leaving GOD caused darkness, chaos and entrophy to run over the earth, as these sinning creatures wanted their individual freedom without much of GOD's power in their lives. This is why the earth was void, formless and dark. ... after Satan gained control of Creation and Man after sin came, Scripture says Satan sowed weeds, but nothing during the fall of man and the subsequent fall of Creation because of man's sin. D TO WHOM DO YOU GIVE THE CREDIT – THE POWER – and the PRAISE As long as you insist that satan is all powerfull - and can uspurp God's Will -I will mock your satanology R Dave, I have never said any of this. In your desire to DEFEND your satan and his rightful position of authority You have said a lot of things – and it all of it – you yield all authority and credit to satan
You need a satan to blame your mistakes upon It is not my fault – satan made me do it – is so Catholic it makes me sickYou and God – alone – just the two of you No matter where you go – no matter where you are – it is always – just the two of you – you and God as you lay diying in agony - it is just you and God and when you meet you maker - it will be just you and God - alone And your choices are your's alone – there is no one else to blame but yourself (your – SELF)Once you realize this – true repentance can begin
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:10:53 GMT -5
D: "Your writings say archons helped create man. Torah never says this. Scripture says – “let us” – implies more than one strong authority R well well well, you admit this speaks of another strong authority.... but this cannot be the Father speaking to His co-eternal uncaused Son can it? that would me against Jewish rules, but its not against Hebrew understanding.
A creature cannot be a strong authority like God is a strong authority, nor can a creature create like GOD can, so why do your writings say these creatures can create like God can? Because your GNostic writings are deceiving you.
According to Occam's razor, how many personalities of love does it take to make ONE functional source of LOVE? Three. These are provider, responder and collective love.
According to Occam's razor, how many functional motions of matter does it take to make ONE functional ATOM? Three. These are proton, neutron and electron.
Get the idea? But Jews ignore the texts they don't like about elohiym, in plural terms.
Gordon admits this, he ignores 6 verses of the 3000 verses about elohiym. My messianic Jew friend John does the same. My other friend Dave who is a Messanic Jew also ignores the texts as well.
None of you are doing what torah says, add line upon line, here and there. No you pick the ones you like. Ignore the others.
R: "Your writings say HS created archons, the torah never says this. D YES! - the HS = God = Christ – and the creator is the only creator R No that is NOT what you said:
You said "the HS = God = Christ – and the chief Archon are also creators of mankind."
That's what you mean to say, which is not what torah says. D: "NEVER? 1 Kings 22:13-19 – God asked for a volunteer to be the deceiving spirit to facilitate God Will R first the verse asks for a "ruwach" to volunteer, not an "angel"
So any angel helping is helping the ruwach as a medium. Not an angel volunteering to become a ruwach. D In each of the 23 + 49 verses – satan is 100% obedient to God R this 1KIngs 22:13 does not meantion "satan", it mentions "ruwach".
Now you imply all verses "oppose" are obedient to God?
OK:
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Here's One that is different to your theory.
The creature that asks to get man to worship the creature, is this a sin to ask this? Yes. But you say this creature never sins?
It is also a sin to get a divine being to worship this creature? Also yes.
So whatever you say here this creature is sinning, by asking man to worship this creature, as torah says only GOD can be worshipped.
"In each of the 23 + 49 verses – satan is 100% obedient to God" so this is bleoney , wrong.
the creature is opposing God by saying a statement that is sinning. Therefore any creature sinning is by definition opposing GOD.
But you screw this up saying God intentionally created some creatures to be sinning and this is good?
Wow, talk about word playing games you do.
Than you say such creatures have no free will, so their sinning is only programmed sinning, its just testing man? wow SO why would GOD intentionally create man who is not allowed to sin, to be tested by sinning agents, so the man is tested to sin. Monkey see monekey do, is this not a little unfair on the design features of GOD?
Why does perfect love need testing in the first place?
D: "You are so brainwashed – If I choose to sin I am opposing myself – my own salvation R No, but you are opposing God, who saves you from opposing Him. Not all sinning is a sin-offering unto death, some sins while in a relationship to GOD, is forgiven as you sin, and miss His power. Other intentional sins of trampling upon GOD is unto death.
D: "SIN = the choice between God and Self – no more or less Eve lying was not a disobedience to God – and nothing happened Eve disobeying God was in eating the fruit – because she was given that law to obey R correct
D: "Man blamed it on the Woman Eve blamed it on the Serpent
God said – Sorry – your choice to chata was your own choice – no one forced you – no one chose for you R Nice, But the serpent blamed his sinning upon God, you made me in a way that led me to sin. So God has to allow sin to do its fruit.
D: "You need a satan to blame your mistakes upon It is not my fault – satan made me do it – is so Catholic it makes me sick
R I hear you, I have never been in a Catholic Church, but when you sin, you choose to sin, following your own propensities inside you, your pet sins, you do ...
Self is our biggest enemy, the fruit of sin
D: "You and God – alone – just the two of you No matter where you go – no matter where you are – it is always – just the two of you – you and God as you lay diying in agony - it is just you and God and when you meet you maker - it will be just you and God - alone R correct I have agreed with this all along, why do you think otherwise about me?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 7, 2020 15:47:11 GMT -5
D: "Your writings say archons helped create man. Torah never says this. Scripture says – “let us” – implies more than one strong authority
R well well well, you admit this speaks of another strong authority.... but this cannot be the Father speaking to His co-eternal uncaused Son can it? that would me against Jewish rules, but its not against Hebrew understanding.You are so simple – you want to argue words – yet fail to grasp their meaning What is a strong authority – who specifically is is – God or another being in charge of a deed? There are many strong authorities – you confuse them when it serves your doctrine R: "Your writings say HS created archons, the torah never says this. D YES! - the HS = God = Christ – and the creator is the only creator R No that is NOT what you said: You said "the HS = God = Christ – and the chief Archon are also creators of mankind."Quote me that I say the First archon is a creator The First Archon had offspring The realm of the archon is physical creation D: "NEVER? 1 Kings 22:13-19 – God asked for a volunteer to be the deceiving spirit to facilitate God Will R first the verse asks for a "ruwach" to volunteer, not an "angel" So any angel helping is helping the ruwach as a medium. Not an angel volunteering to become a ruwach.So then your medium – the HS is the deceiving spirit – the satan Diminish God and elevate satan – it is what you doD In each of the 23 + 49 verses – satan is 100% obedient to God R this 1KIngs 22:13 does not meantion "satan", it mentions "ruwach". YEP! A lying ruwach – a deceiving ruwach – just like the serpent in the garden You want to deny scripture – change it into a metaphor that validates SDA doctrineThe creature that asks to get man to worship the creature, is this a sin to ask this? Yes. But you say this creature never sins? Did I say this creature never sins? I have no idea if he does or not! Scripture tells us of only when God gives satan an assignment and satan obeys Yet – you think it a sin to obey GodYou think the deceiving / lying ruwach sins by obeying God You also think that that deieving / lying ruwach was only the Holy Spirit So now you insist that the Holy Spirit is a deceiving liar – it cannot be your precious satanSo whatever you say here this creature is sinning, by asking man to worship this creature, as torah says only GOD can be worshipped.Again – why is it a sin for the SDA to obey God?"In each of the 23 + 49 verses – satan is 100% obedient to God" so this is bleoney , wrong.So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD? Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture? And your answer isAt least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter if it goes against Catholic doctrineand SDA doctrine comes back upon itself - beging with a fasle assumption - then build upon it when you are caught in the trappings of your own argument - you revert full ciricle to the false assumption
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 2:34:54 GMT -5
D: "You are so simple – you want to argue words – yet fail to grasp their meaning What is a strong authority – who specifically is is – God or another being in charge of a deed? There are many strong authorities – you confuse them when it serves your doctrine R Its a valid point Dave, Scripture does not say creatures helped in Creation.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Not a single torah anywhere that angels helped in creation. How can they? They are matter creatures, and Elohiym is divine and uncaused. Only the uncaused cause can create from nothing and bring matter into existence.
There is a text Sons of God sang for joy over Creation, but hardly a mention about doing creating with matter-creature powers?
You ask me where do you assert the idea of the Chief Archon being a Creator?
gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html
"Yaldabaoth is the chief ruler. He took great Power (dynamis) from his mother, Left her, and moved away from his birthplace. He assumed command, Created realms for himself With a brilliant flame that continues to exist even now".
How can matter-creatures take power from GOD?
"His mother began to move back and forth Because she had become aware that she now lacked Light For her brightness had dimmed. [Since her consort had not approved of her actions, she grew darker]
How can GOD grow darker? [I said “Master, what does it mean ‘she moved back and forth’?” He laughed, saying, “It’s not as Moses said ‘upon the waters.’ Not at all.”] When she saw the evil that had taken place and The theft of light that her son had committed She repented. In the darkness of ignorance She began to forget. She began to be ashamed."
how can GOD feel ashamed for doing something wrong. God never makes mistakes. Do you really believe in these statements? God is ashamed? Created things without consort? How can GOD make a mistake and grow darker?
"The arrogant one removed Power from his mother For he was ignorant He thought no one existed except for his mother. He saw the host of demons he had created And he elevated himself above them."
How can a matter-creature remove power from a Divine Being?
"Yaldabaoth said to his subordinate demons: “Let’s create a man according to the image of God And our own likeness So that his image will illuminate us.” Each one through another’s Power created aspects of the man;"
How can a matter-creature be allowed to take over a Divine Being?
Do your archon gods have this kind of power over GOD?
"All of Yaldabaoth’s servants and his demons Worked to finish the psychic body. For a very long time it lay inanimate It did not move. Yaldabaoth’s mother wanted to take back the Power She had turned over to the Chief Ruler."
. How can a matter-creature dominate the HS that much?
"Yaldabaoth blew some of his Spirit into the man. That Spirit was the divine Power of his mother. [He didn’t understand what was happening, for he lived in ignorance.] His mother’s divine Power left Yaldabaoth It entered the psychic human body Modeled on the primordial image. The human body moved! It grew powerful! It shone! "
You have the chief archon breathing into Adam and Adam existed?
Absolutely against the torah...!!!! And you follow Gnostic writings?
Maybe this is the wrong translation, but is a better one that different?
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D: "So then your medium – the HS is the deceiving spirit – the satan Diminish God and elevate satan – it is what you do R do understand what a medium is? A medium carries power not its own power.
The medium of GOD allows sombody elses power to flow.
How else can GOD describe His role in upholding all things, including good and evil?
Evil does not come from GOD, God only allows the evil to flow through the medium. Scripture tells you where evil comes from, an Opposer.
D: "when you are caught in the trappings of your own argument - you revert full ciricle to the false assumption R No Dave I don't get trapped in my own words, you twist them. Have a look at your Gnostic writings, I posted here? They suggest ridiculous things....
Archons created man Archons took power form HS Archons made HS feel ashamed You should talk, your archon is a god who tells GOD what to do. Nothing in these quotes come from Torah.
You are not following Torah Moses wrote at all.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 9, 2020 12:05:57 GMT -5
D: "You are so simple – you want to argue words – yet fail to grasp their meaning What is a strong authority – who specifically is is – God or another being in charge of a deed? There are many strong authorities – you confuse them when it serves your doctrine R Its a valid point Dave, Scripture does not say creatures helped in Creation.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
You must be so confused word man
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
If the Trinity is bunk and there are three unique beings that work together to form God Is the true creator your Christ god – or your Father god
Not a single torah anywhere that angels helped in creation. How can they? They are matter creatures, and Elohiym is divine and uncaused. Only the uncaused cause can create from nothing and bring matter into existence. Correct – the expression “Let us” doesn’t tell us who is helping whom
You ask me where do you assert the idea of the Chief Archon being a Creator? gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html Ahhh – again with the Davies text - I have asked before - and I am asking again - please limit yourself to the CGLP translation I have already shown you that the davies text is not consistant with the other translations available
"Yaldabaoth is the chief ruler. He took great Power (dynamis) from his mother, How can matter-creatures take power from GOD?
WOW – I love your question – simply love it
Not exactly sure wich side of the argument you are on First you argue that man has no soul - we only get our life force - our power from the HS Then you ask - how can this be possible
Your theology is absolutely not consistent In one paragraph you argue for the Power coming from the HS In the next paragraph you question if such a thing is even possible You do not know what you believe
Left her, and moved away from his birthplace. He assumed command, Created realms for himself With a brilliant flame that continues to exist even now". Within creation – just as men do
She repented. In the darkness of ignorance She began to forget. She began to be ashamed." how can GOD feel ashamed for doing something wrong. God never makes mistakes.
Gen 6:5 Then Adonai saw that the wickedness of humankind was great on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the time. Gen 6:6 So Adonai regretted that He made humankind on the earth, and His heart was deeply pained. how can GOD feel ashamed for doing something wrong. God never makes mistakes.
Do you really believe in these statements? God is ashamed? YES! I believe scripture -
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 4:24:50 GMT -5
D" Correct – the expression “Let us” doesn’t tell us who is helping whom R The "let us" refers to members of elohiym, the Father and Son. Not angels involved in Creating.
D: "Ahhh – again with the Davies text - I have asked before - and I am asking again - please limit yourself to the CGLP translation R Ohh sorry.
R: How can matter-creatures take power from GOD?
D: WOW – I love your question – simply love it
D In one paragraph you argue for the Power coming from the HS In the next paragraph you question if such a thing is even possible You do not know what you believe R I beg your pardon, but divinity will not be give creatures who are arrogant and with Self, so they can presumptuously use divine power for selfish and arrogant reasons, this is what your chief archon Yalboaboeth does. The example you quote is the breath of life flowing from the Father via the medium into all creatures, even wicked humans, because all creatures are on probation, but only humans are recorded for purposes of salvation. Hence our free will choice matters to GOD.
SO GOD is ashamed for the bad choice his perfect creation is making. God will not cause a massive flow of His power in a wicked person, so they can do sinful things with His power. That is a conflict of love.
Gnostic writings say the creature was arrogant. That is a sining trait already. Therefore no flow of creative power can flow into a sinful being for the purposes of their own arrogance.
D: "Gen 6:6 So Adonai regretted that He made humankind on the earth, and His heart was deeply pained.
Such shame comes from perfect creatures choosing to sin Dave. The Gnostic writing's speak of the Chief archon using God's power for arrogant sinning reasons.
There is a massive difference here.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 10, 2020 13:55:38 GMT -5
D" Correct – the expression “Let us” doesn’t tell us who is helping whom R The "let us" refers to members of elohiym, the Father and Son. OH – so now you only have two gods in your pantheon – the HS is not included R The "let us" refers to members of elohiym Correct – heavenly beings – the Trinity or angels – or archon – all heavenly beings
R: How can matter-creatures take power from GOD? D: WOW – I love your question – simply love it D In one paragraph you argue for the Power coming from the HS In the next paragraph you question if such a thing is even possible You do not know what you believe R I beg your pardon, but divinity will not be give creatures who are arrogant and with Self, so they can presumptuously use divine power for selfish and arrogant reasons, this is what your chief archon Yalboaboeth does.
creatures who are arrogant and with Self, so they can presumptuously use divine power for selfish and arrogant reasons = MAN
Gnostic writings say the creature was arrogant. That is a sining trait already. Please explain why being arrogant is a sin
I know many arrogant Christians - I believe I am speaking to one
The First Archon spoke from belief – a belief he held with strong conviction – a belief he held with much faith
Therefore no flow of creative power can flow into a sinful being for the purposes of their own arrogance. No man is his own man – he is just live by the power of the HS flowing through him But sinners do not / cannot have this power flowing through them And all men are sinner – therefore no man has the power of the HS flowing through him
You talk in circles – you are not consistent
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 15:27:32 GMT -5
D Please explain why being arrogant is a sin
R Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. D: "I know many arrogant Christians - I believe I am speaking to one R Oh so you are saying I am arrogant?
D: "No man is his own man – he is just live by the power of the HS flowing through him But sinners do not / cannot have this power flowing through them And all men are sinner – therefore no man has the power of the HS flowing through him
You talk in circles – you are not consistent
R Yes it is confusing if you see it this way.
Who kept Hitler alive and able to use GOD's power to choose to use this power dysfunctionally?
Sure lots of wicked people are kept alive to do evil and use God's power for dysfunctional purposes?
And Sinning Angels is no different. This does not mean GOD is causing the evil. The free will use of the creatures is causing their own sin, not God causing them to sin.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2020 9:26:52 GMT -5
D: "No man is his own man – he is just live by the power of the HS flowing through him But sinners do not / cannot have this power flowing through them And all men are sinner – therefore no man has the power of the HS flowing through him R Yes it is confusing if you see it this way. This is how you preach it
Man was made in the image of God – the image of Christ because Christ=God=HS Christ existed in heaven – before He was born into a animal body – then He returned to God Man existed in heaven with God before conception Man comes into an animal body at conception Upon mortal death – man returns to God for judgment
Man is spirit – angels are spirit – archons are spirit and we all existed during the First Age – Gen 1:1-3
As an animal – the spirit of man yearns to be reunited with the Spirit of God – Born Again – a spirit to spirit personal relationship
And Sinning Angels are no different. You refuse to tell me why it is a sin to obey God
God test man – FACT But when the serpent test Eve – the serpent is sinning When satan test Job – satan is sinning And when satan tested Jesus – satan was really sinning
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 17:05:06 GMT -5
D Man was made in the image of God – the image of Christ because Christ=God=HS Christ existed in heaven – before He was born into a animal body – then He returned to God Man existed in heaven with God before conception Man comes into an animal body at conception Upon mortal death – man returns to God for judgment
Man is spirit – angels are spirit – archons are spirit and we all existed during the First Age – Gen 1:1-3
As an animal – the spirit of man yearns to be reunited with the Spirit of God – Born Again – a spirit to spirit personal relationship
-------------------------- Some strange things here Dave "Man existed in heaven with God before conception" So this "spirit body" trillions of individuals all existed from eternity with GOD. We have 9 thousand million, plus more in Noahs day, so that means billions of "individual spirit bodies" from eternity with GOD? And man's spirit took up an animal body. So did all these trillions of spirit bodies come later out of GOD, or were they separately individually different from GOD?
SO your saying the second birth is man getting back his spirit body? Is that it? So how can a wicked spirit body die in a lake of fire?
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D:"And Sinning Angels are no different. You refuse to tell me why it is a sin to obey God
God test man – FACT But when the serpent test Eve – the serpent is sinning When satan test Job – satan is sinning And when satan tested Jesus – satan was really sinning
R: " We have been through this before Dave.
Greek "peirazo" is a translation of the Hebrew "nacah".
Jeff Benner says the positive meaning of "nacah" is "test"
Hebrew also comes with negative meanings for their words IF the sentence allows this. Hence "tempt" is the oppositie meaning of "nacah". Meaning "tempt to sin"
The positive meaning is "test to see if you truly love GOD"
Not the negative meaning "tempt you to sin".
You can have one meaning or the other meaning, but NOT BOTH. You can bless or curse, but NOT bless AND hate You can test or tempt, but NOT both TEST AND TEMPT
God does do the postive meaning of "nacah", but never does the negative meaning of "nacah".
You seem to think intentionally created creatures do this tempting humans to sin. This violates my understanding of Hebrew as taught to me by Jeff Benner.
God cannot do both positive and negative meanings of a Hebrew word.
But you seem to think God can, ie murder and kill as well as no murder and life.
God to me is either all living, and all loving. Sure I read these verses you throw at me, and I find them strange, so perhaps we have something's we don't understand. I do not claim to know Hebrew that well.
I also get the impression you don't read Hebrew that well either.
As Paul said, do you have a better GOD to turn to?
I get your view and hope GOD judges us by our light of understanding.
Dave do you agree with how this Hebrew word for "nacah" works?? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 13, 2020 2:38:09 GMT -5
Some strange things here Dave "Man existed in heaven with God before conception" Gen 1:1-3 – represents the First age – a complete Genesis to Revelation theology all of its own Begins with God – enters the choshek - and then Salvation by the Light None of it happened on or near planet earth of Gen 1:9 All of it happened before the physical world All of it happened in the spiritual realm – the invisible to us realm – different dimensions
A cycle repeated in the first three Book of the Bible Gen1 – the beginning Gen 2 – man and choice are archon are all placed together Gem 3 - enter the choshek and the promise
A cycle repeated again in the second story of the Bible Gen 1-5 man multiplied and had dominion over the earth Gen 6 - man and choice are archon are all placed together Gen 8-12 - enter the choshek (flood) and the promise
So this "spirit body" trillions of individuals all existed from eternity with GOD. We have 9 thousand million, plus more in Noahs day, so that means billions of "individual spirit bodies" from eternity with GOD? YES! Every man from planet earth – in spirit form – in spirit body to satisfy you YES!! – and even many other life forms for other planets – who am I to limit God’s creation YES! – and much more – billions of angelic forms – billion of other forms – all of the archon Not just our verse of the multiverse – but all of it – the Gnostic ALL who am I to limit God’s creation
And man's spirit took up an animal body. YES! – at conception we (our spirit / spirit body) is trapped within an animal body Gen 2:7 – and man became a living being – different – from a creeping thing with life
In heaven we were in full awareness / communion with God – spirit to spirit This communion continues within the womb At birth (Psalms 23) we are still in communion with the Lord – and this is why all newborns are smiling and happy to alive BUT – as the animal body grows and develops – yester ra begins to assert itself with FEED ME
This is a side effect of being mortal – it is a symptom of being mortal – all me are sinners Adam and Eve were proof of this
SO your saying the second birth is man getting back his spirit body? Is that it? Second Birth? Don’t know what you are trying to say
Man – never gets his spirit body back This would make the animal man – and the spirit body is something extra Instead – man is spirit body only – this is our true heavenly form – not 3D flesh and blood
Then man (the spirit body) – enters a animal body at conception – correct While we are here – our spirit body is a passenger inside of our animal body As we souljourn here – our spirit body the home of yester tov – the awareness we one knew However – animal body comes with a brain and a mind and a deep rooted instinct for SELF This Contest is all on you – deep inside you know better – yet we keep acting like men On top of that is the contest we call life – and then the archon at work – and testing by God
Upon mortal death – death of the animal body – our spirit body is released back to heaven
If we die in Christ – we are washed clean and become the First Fruits Others are raised from the dead later at the First resurrection Is this the believer group only – or the I never heard group – or the group confused by God not to understand – UNKNOWN who they are – just not the First Fruits
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 How fortunate and holy is the one who has a share in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no authority, but they shall be kohanim of God and the Messiah, and they shall reign with Him for a thousand years.
POINT – something missing here – skip to the end for the missing time Those of the First Resurrection will reign with God /Christ for 1000 yrs then the final judgment
POINT – SECOND DEATH
Rev 20:14 Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
So how can a wicked spirit body die in a lake of fire? Scripture say the Second death = death of the spirit The beast – The dragon – your satan – demons (false prophets) archon are not 3D physical creatures of flesh and bone – from our small perspective these are spirit beings Scripture say the Second death = death of the spirit
God told Adam – if you eat of it you die (now / once) and again in the future God told Adam – you will die as all mortal 3D animals do – AND again in a 2nd death in the future Adam and Eve could have lived forever in her animal body – but they became mortal just like all 3D physical animals The serpent said – not
BOTH STATEMENTS ARE TRUE I am a sinner because I am an animal – I will die – if I do not repent I will not be in the book of life If I do repent and accept Christ for who he is – then I have a chance to be in that Book
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D:"And Sinning Angels are no different. You refuse to tell me why it is a sin to obey God R: " We have been through this before Dave.
Greek "peirazo" is a translation of the Hebrew "nacah". The positive meaning is "test to see if you truly love GOD" Not the negative meaning "tempt you to sin".
You can have one meaning or the other meaning, but NOT BOTH. You can bless or curse, but NOT bless AND hate You can test or tempt, but NOT both TEST AND TEMPT
My opinion – if you were a translation student (nothing to do with scripture) I would say You view is to one dimensional – you hold the word to close NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG – but one dimensional
For me – the precept here – is bi-directional – requires two and therefore two perspectives
My stupid example I am just making up this moment
God says – take my servant Dave – I will test him
OK – how does God do this – 1- God gave me a commission – to witness God’s Glory to all the nations 2- I am alone in a world filled with selfish cavemen in business suits driven by being the alpha dog with the most money 3- I am alone in a world dominated by the archon – many are invisible (evil spirits) – some are visible when they want to be -Alien / Extraterrestrial - ‘other gods’ – visible demons / shadow people 4- and now that I am a convert – I realize more than ever – I am my own obstacle
At any time – the heaven can see men and see me contend with my contest in real time Right now – this very minute – I believe you and I are in full view of thousands of invisible beings Some very interested in us – some busy doing other things
Our weakness are also fueled – then tested The archon fuel us – with vices, addictions, cravings, lusts, and desires All God has to do is sit back and watch the archon do their job Or God – can send an agent of the lord to test you directly – Job From God’s perspective – I am being tested From my perspective – on the receiving end – I am being tempted
If you tempt me on purpose – you are testing my response How is the only way you can test my choice for God or not – you tempt me
POINT – something missing here – skip to the end for the missing time
OK afterlife time line First Fruits – serving the Lord in heaven Then other raise in the First Resurrection to reign for a 1000 yrs with God/Christ Then the Final Judgment and the Second death
What is missing – Proportional Punishment Each man judged by his own deeds, works, and fruit proportionally
Answer – Proportional Punishment occurs to those in the grave awaiting that First Resurrection
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2020 15:48:35 GMT -5
Nice replies Dave
Two questions though,
Your theory about "spirit bodies" is interesting.
So what is the "second birth" about?
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
If man has already the "spirit body" and the "animal body" inside us, why than does Jesus say we need a second birth process, this "borning of the Spirit" ? Don't we have a "spirit body" already?
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The other question relates to Hebrew word meanings....
D" From God’s perspective – I am being tested From my perspective – on the receiving end – I am being tempted
You say "NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG – but one dimensional" so I am confused here.
My understanding of Hebrew as a perfect language GOD gave to man from Eden times, is it did not have polysemy at all, otherwise this is dysfunctional, a less than perfect creation.
To me God creates perfectly all the time.
When God tests me, it is not from my view, tempting me to sin. For example
When Huss was being burned in the fires at the stake, He sang songs of praise to God.
So the testing caused a returning to God even more. A positive outcome.
If you hit your thumb with a hammer and you curse, rather than cry to the Lord, than that test was not a test, but something was tempting you to sin. A negative outcome.
Notice the differences:
Ge 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that God did "tempt" Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.(KJV)
I feel the KJV use of nacah as "tempt" is wrong. Jeff Benner is right:
Ge 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that God did "test" Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.(Jeff Benner)
God is testing Abram to see how his love endures his one and only son. Its a poetry parallel to the Father and His one and only Son.
Notice what the testing (positive outcome) does:
Ge 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
The is Abram supporting GOD with words GOD did not say but promised. Its a great example of Amanuah, or support, the positive outcome of nacah.
Notice Job never uses nacah word:
Job 4:1 ¶ Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said, 2 If we assay "nacah" to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved?
Only Eliphaz does once.
A related word, meaning to examine is used "bachan".
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try "bachan" him every moment? 19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle? 20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men?
SO Job feels he is examined by GOD, but not Tested by God.
Job 23:10 But he knoweth <yada`> the way <derek> that I take <`immad>: when he hath tried <bachan> me, I shall come forth <yatsa'> as gold <zahab>
Again examined to come forth as gold in a fire, but no mention of testing.
God declared Job already perfect and complete, so it makes sense that testing is not required, as no further positive outcome could be achieved.
So why was Job afflicted than?
The opposer challenged God's right to save Job. This is NOT an attorney role either, for no judgement is mentioned.
The only view is the opposer opposed God's right to save sinners.
D: "If you tempt me on purpose – you are testing my response
R: If I tempt you (following Bible view) I am trying to get you to sin. A negative outcome.
If I test you (following Bible view), I am looking for a positive outcome from you.
The trainer tests the athlete's on the running track daily, because he wants the leg muscles to respond positively to the testing.
My Son who got a PB for running eventually gave up because the testing is hard work. He was tempted to become tired and frustrated by the testing. This is a negative outcome.
What does Scripture saying about this?
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:
Same Hebrew word, but Greek equivalent, but KJV uses positive meaning now "tried" not "tempted", they are not consistent.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Tempted to sin, comes from our propensities within us, NOT archon department as you claim.
God does not tempt us to sin.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (KJV)
God makes a way of escape if you are being tempted....
Heb 12:6 For <gar> whom <hos> the Lord <kurios> loveth <agapao> he chasteneth <paideuo>, and <de> scourgeth <mastigoo> every <pas> son <huios> whom <hos> he receiveth <paradechomai>. 7 If <ei> ye endure <hupomeno> chastening <paideia>, God <theos> dealeth <prosphero> with you <humin> as <hos> with sons <huios>; for <gar> what <tis> son <huios> is he <esti> whom <hos> the father <pater> chasteneth <paideuo> not <ou>?
These verses do not speak of testing / tempting ie nacah.
So whom does the tempting than?
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>. For <eis> this purpose <touto> the Son <huios> of God <theos> was manifested <phaneroo>, that <hina> he might destroy <luo> the works <ergon> of the devil <diabolos>.
If tempting come from our own sins and sinning we do, notice who influences us to do sinning?
This verse says devil does sinning. Jesus came to destroy works of devil. ie stop devil from making humans do sinning.
That is why the Hebrew word "opposer" is used.
Jesus and this sinning angel are opponents.
Shalom
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