Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 16:40:42 GMT -5
Eph 3:15 (KJV) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (ASV) from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (BBE) From whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (DBY) of whom every family in [the] heavens and on earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (MKJV) of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (MNT) from whom every fatherhood in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (NKJV) from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (RSV) from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (TCNT) From whom all 'fatherhood' in Heaven and on earth derives its name--
Eph 3:15 (WEB) from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
Eph 3:15 (WNT) from whom the whole family in Heaven and on earth derives its name,
Eph 3:15 (YLT) of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Dave Eph 3:15 from Him every family in heaven and on earth receives its name.
So Dave why can't this mean" from the Father Himself, every family in heaven is named?
Isn't this saying there is a family picture of GOD in heaven?
D I beg you to show me how this passage proves there are three gods
R I am not talking about three gods am I? stop changing the topic.
Does this verse say the Father belongs to his own family concept in heaven or not?
Why even the words "ab" and "ben" tell you this, or why else would elohiym be described as "Father" and "Son" ?
You say Jews see the HS as an expression of the Most High?
SO why do both expressions come over Mary to both the Son of GOD unto one of Mary's eggs? as in Luke 1:35
Isn't this what heavenly parents would do if elohiym are in fact heavenly family concept?
If we cannot make sense of Ephesians 3:15 with Luke 1:35, than there is confusion in the torah?
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Now I am not selling you anything, I am just asking you to tell me what these verses mean?
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and just because the SDA how adopted the word trinity since 1980 to 2020, does not make it right. When I was baptised SDA in 1980, such as trinity word was not in my vows.
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You seem to define the second death as God takes away your Spirit.
And thus living would be, God gives you your Spirit.
SO explain how this fits with Jesus, the Son of GOD, who also became the Son of Man.
Jesus the SON of GOD, requires no spirit, because the Son of GOD, is GOD, is this correct?
So when the Son of Man came forth from Mary, as both the Son of GOD AND the Son of Man, why is there necessary for a "spirit" when Jesus has already his own "spirit" since He is GOD?
I am just asking you a question? OK, don't get mad at me: LOL
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D: "I do not know what Laws govern God
R How than can we relate to GOD or know GOD is we don't know His laws of Himself?
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie,
Such a statement as this is impossible to write say you, because we do not know God's own laws?
If Devil-Opposer-Satan is a Father of lies, than the heavenly Father must be a Father who never lies.
How would we know this?
Obviously by the royal-torah, the ten words the YHWH wrote HIMSELF with His own finger?
The royal torah says No lying.
But you say the serpent-devil-opposer never lied to Eve in the Garden? Hmm? "Ye shall not surely die"...
What does muwth muwth mean?
God did not take away Serpent-devil-opposer's "spirit" did He Dave? , so your theory of the "Death" meaning a "taking away" something cannot be right.
Something must have happened to the serpent, when it sinned, otherwise GOD lied, but God never lies.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
I suggest to you the meaning of "death" is "separation".
"their place found any more in heaven" for Opposer-Devil-Serpent.
He was banished from light to darkness.
The relationship ended, but not totally. Opposer was allowed to visit GOD in Job's time sometimes,
The promise is from sinning is called "muwth muwth", a dying death. It's gradual.
So did something happened when this angel sinned? Yes. Relationships changed and the relationships broke off, and the sinning angels were not allowed to visit GOD anymore, or as often.
The serpent said "thous shalt not dying die" is a lie.
Something did dying die when this angel sinned. His relationship to GOD dying died. Than one day GOD will take away His spirit as you speak about Dave, the ultimate saparation from GOD.
Isn't this what sinning is all about, a daily dying of relationship with GOD?
Look what happened when Eve sinned, the HS died immediately around her making he appear naked. (I use "died" in the context loosely, meaning the relationship died).
When Jesus "died" on the cross, did not the relationship communion with the the Father stop, hence communion was broken? But you cannot agree to this because you do not see elohiym as three persons, but one being.
You didn't answer my question:
marriage: when two personalities of love marry, they become one being.
echad: the parts become cardinally one whole.
love: there are two personalities of loving, actually three if we include child like love, and you ignore that love is like this.
Father and Son, two common ways to describe GOD, but somehow is nothing about family simile?
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Dave posted a link,
:
"However, a close reading of the Old Testament reveals that God does not directly intend evil, but does permit it, because authentic love necessarily implies freedom. Since human freedom went awry, sin, suffering, and death entered the world"
Gnostic writings say the world already had death in it before Adam sinned, causing the death of animals to atone for His sinning.
So this article is NOT supporting your cause Dave.
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church (Catechism) teaches, “One may not do evil so that good may result from it” (no. 1756). In other words, we may not directly choose evil because we hope that some greater good may come from it.
If man cannot directly choose evil, how much more so for almighty God? In this regard, Deuteronomy 20 appears to provide the biggest challenge to the dogma of God’s sinlessness.
"
I am totally lost here. I am not a feel good catholic... this makes no sense??
"For example, the Church opposes fornication, but offers the confessional, not state-sanctioned criminal penalties, as a more efficacious remedy to regulate and minimize this societal ill. Trying to enforce such a criminal code might lead to worse societal upheaval.
In that light we can understand the nature of the Deuteronomic Law and why it was given. Because of their worship of the Golden Calf following the Exodus, many Israelites were killed (Ex. 32-33)."
So times were more black and white back than. Like PNG I mission in. They have no courtship a girl.
To PNG eyes talking to a girl in darkness is to have sex with her. PNG people only understand black and white over issues, like OT ways. You as a boy could only talk to girls in groups and in pure light. Publically on show. And the courtship always have a mediator who went with you.
"“Deuteronomic” means secondary, as in secondary law. The Deuteronomic Law was not God’s ideal plan but rather a concessionary code because of the hardness of the Israelites’ hearts. In many respects, it seems as if the Israelites wanted to “learn the hard way,” and God obliged them, allowing them imperfect laws so that they would seek Him faithfully.
Yes, stiff neck people, so GOD gave them stiff neck laws. Were they required to kill people to inherit the promise land? No, but the stiff necks wanted to rule on their own, so GOD allowed this.
"“You do not have, because you don’t ask,” St. James adds, in words that could be applied to the ancient Israelites (Jas. 4:3). “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble,” says St. James, quoting the Book of Proverbs. “Submit yourselves therefore to God” (Jas. 4:6-7).
Nice
"The concessionary nature of the Deuteronomic Law can be seen in Matthew 19:1-12, regarding Christ’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage. Jesus grounds the teaching in Genesis 2:23-24, emphasizing that what “God has joined together let no man put asunder (19:4-6). The Pharisees respond that Moses allowed for a divorce and remarriage decree, alluding to Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (19:7). Jesus notes that Moses allowed the Israelites to divorce and remarry, but from the beginning it was not so (19:8-9).
Yes GOD had to deal with stiff necks, so made many stiff neck rules.
This is why Scripture is intentionally confusing, because the proud want Scripture to be confusing.
"Jesus clearly teaches that God did not directly intend the divorce decree. As many commentators have noted, Moses reluctantly made the decree because he feared that the Israelite men would otherwise kill their wives and seek a new spouse. Moses understood that, given the hardness of the Israelites’ hearts, this was making the best out of an imperfect situation.
Yes, nicely said
"I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life.” The Deuteronomic law did not directly sanction evil, but attempted to regulate with less-than-perfect laws the behavior of the hard-hearted Israelites. An analogy may be made with parents who allow their hard-hearted children the freedom to make mistakes, and who then hold them responsible for their choices so that they learn from their mistakes.
R yes
" Women and children in these lands who had reached the age of reason could certainly commit mortal sin. Thus their execution could be more easily understood. What is more vexing is the killing of young children, even infants.
In allowing as opposed to directly intending their deaths, God seems to be making a point. The worst thing one can face is spiritual death, not mere physical death. Better for all of the Canaanites to die, for example, than for the Israelites to live side by side with them and have all or most of both groups go to hell when the Israelites embraced their false gods.
As Jesus would later affirm, “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt. 10:28; cf. 1 Cor. 5:5).
R Interesting view
D" Sorry Robert – only one God – God of the OT is the same God as the NT
R Yes the same Jesus in the OT deals with stiff necks as the stiff necks in the NT.
Ex 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Who's the "him" here, whose Name is the Father's? Who forgives sin?
Not an angel. Let Scripture tell you.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Yashuah was this messenger function for His Father.
But you speak of this as an expression of YHWH, a part of Himself?
Sorry I see a family picture, Father and Son working as ONE.
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R"I see death as the separation of relationship.
D " – with who
R with GOD, who else?
And if the flow of love or communion also happens within the Godhead, we also have "death of relationships" and a broken power flow.
This happened when Jesus died separated from His Father.
The Father did not take away "his spirit", Jesus the Son of GOD died, experiencing separation, the brokeness of relationship.
When you unplug a power cord, the circuit flow dies... not the same defintion as people are used to.
When you plug a power cord back, the circuit flow with life. Relationship restored.
So the the Father moved away from His Son, and the relationship temporally ends for 3 days and 3 nights. This is the true meaning of death.
When the Father moves back to His Son, the flow begins again, and the Son of GOD rises from the grave - something creatures cannot do, because they are never living on their own, they need relationship to GOD to be living.
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D: "Then how can you argue that satan killed Christ eternal life
R I never said Satan killed Christ, nor killed Christ eternally.
Creatures cannot interfere with divinity. Divinity makes divine solutions, not creatures to the sin problem.
The Father separated from His Son, causing the flow of living to stop. Why did the Father and Son agree to do this? Because of sinning.
Was Jesus meant to be tortured this way? No, the Opposer did this form of cruelity.
The Opposer was trying to stop this agreement between divinity. Stop the salvation solution to sinning.
The opposer is a father of sinning. The heavenly Father is a father of loving. No sinning.
These two forces of influence are opposites and oppose each other. That's why the Hebrew word "oppose" was invented by God.
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D: "It is not a hard question – either Christ is dead and gone now
Or He is still alive and well in heaven – providing the Divine Pardon to all that ask
R Yes Jesus is alive.
I asked you will I see the wounds in His hands in heaven?
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D: "What would you call the Lake of Fire
R This is a functional picture of GOD, as love. Love is a blazing fire.
D: "You can choose to return to Proportional Punishment until you realize your error
Or you can remain stubborn and choose the Lake of Fire
R "let us reason together" is the only time you have NOW for relationships.
Scripture is full of stick neck confusion for stiff necks, like Lazarus in hell talking... its a common false idea Jews saw, so Jesus used it, like other stiff neck ideas, like divorce for example.
D"Just keep arguiong words – avoid the concept behind the words – just argue words
R if GOD wanted to describe elohiym, he would have inspired OT Moses to write a Hebrew word, but He didn't.
He got Moses to write "ab" and "eloah" and "shadday" and "ben" words you refuse to see are similes of family idea. Not "Trinity" whatever that means?
If GOD is only ONE, than why did GOD create mankind as two personalities of loving?
Surely GOD could have created sexually arrangements in one being. Than I would believe you that self love is possible? But such a term doesn't exist, except in a sinning world.
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour ( as GOD loves you) See Jeff Benner on how this word in Hebrew word, its a comparison.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Why does Jesus speak of two ways of love, not three?
Love thyself, does not exist. You love God. You love man as GOD loves you.
Self or Baal or self love only exists in a sinning world.
And even than Jesus refused to acknowledge this as a form of love. So this is saying to love GOD is based on relationships. Than GOD is based on relationships. God is not solitary.
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R A dog would get lonely playing with cats.
D WHAT?
R don't you understand, Adam had GOD, Adam had animals. But Adam felt lonely.
Why? Because he had no elohiym kind of his own.
Why is Job full of eloah and shadday? What are these terms about?
I see these terms as names of heavenly parents.
You see them as a solitary YHWH making two expressions of Himself.
What makes my wife interesting is the fact I never can predict her style of loving.
Having two expressions of myself, would be boring. I talk to my ID all day apart from GOD, and my self talk is boring because it come from me. God is relational. Why don't you see this?
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D" Jesus laid His mortal life down for us – to prove it is an illusion
R what is an illusion?
D: "One God in three persons = the 3 are 1 = MONOTHEISM
As in God the Father person - the Spirit of God person - and the 3D image of God person
R why do you right this as MONOTHEISM ? and not POLYTHEISM?
Trinity www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/god/trinity/
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)
D "You teach - There are 3 Gods: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a dis-unity of three seperate gods
You insist they must be three seperate gods or they cannot have a relationship
Whatever that means?
R I do not speak of the term "god" or "gods" Dave, but happily use the term for laypeople who read in child like terms.
There word "al" means "strong authority".
You cannot ever have three separate gods ever in Hebrew. This is pagan view from Devil thinking.
But you do in Gnostic writings. You have the HS making a mistake, doing something without her consort.
Hebrew does not create that way. The SON created all things as HE spoke, the HS empowered those words HE spoke using the power of the Father, so in a sense all were together and involved in Creation, but only the Son directly did the creating. It a community involvement. A community picture of salvation.
When Abram saw Christ walking with two angels in the desert, Abram ordered his wife to prepare food, Abram told his servants do this and that, than Abram invited Christ for a meal. It's a community effort.
If you view marriage as separate beings doing their own thing, this is no longer a perfect marriage, but two couples living in the one house, nobody is in harmony as one.
But if a marriage is perfect, than the community functions as one Being. The Hebrew sees one flesh in the marriage, not two. A family is not two families, but one family. The family as a whole is made of parts which function as one whole.
Remove a single cell from it's 16 trillion and its dies, yet is quite capable of independent living, but refuses to do so? Why is that? Remove the liver and the kidneys die? Why? Because the parts are not longer functioning as a whole. The toe cannot say to the foot, I don't need you. Nor the hand say to the head, I don't need you either.
How many mountains are Mt Sinai? Dr Kim has photos of Mt Sinai? From a distance its one peak, closer up we see two peaks?
How many parts in the atom? For far away we see a blur ball, closer up we see three parts, closer again we see trillions of quarks, so tiny they seem to vanish. Again the parts of a whole.
If you have separated parts, the system dies.
If you have a whole functioning in harmony the relationships allow the whole of function.
Don't you understand echad?
I can look at the parts or the whole. My view changes. Look at the whole I see ONE.
Look and the parts and I see members making the whole.
The view changes depends upon where you see.
I see a tree of green.
Some see a tree of leaves just green
Some see palisade cells of chloropyll.
The parts get smaller and smaller, each with relationships to the whole.
Nothing is ever on its own doing without it's consort. But Gnostic writings say this flawed idea?
If a leaf fails to cling to the whole, it falls and dies.
Cling to me says Jesus and I will empower living in you.
Are there parts to the nature of elohiym? Yes
Love is written in Hebrew as two words or love, each depending mostly on gender.
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D: "You are inventing your own religion
Its fine - if that is what you CHOOSE for yourself
Stop trying to sell it here
R you want me to stop speaking about Hebrew now?
SDA people do not read Hebrew, they trust translators in English.
Not that there is overly anything overly bad about KJV for a babe. It's the mocking I contend with.
My Pastor once told me GOD does not talk to you, that was you conscience, your self talk telling you to wash the dishes for your Mum, at age 16???
He was so wrong to say that....
SDA people do not admit the HS is a woman termed the Shadday. Pagan idea they say.
I am not saying it that way eiither, but as a functional simile. Today we have a creed saying the HS is a "he" whateer that means?
So yes, often I am on my own, with older views of SDA before 1980 changes came.
D: "How can you even call yourself a Christian
Then teach that your satan killed Christ eternally - Christ is dead
R I didn't say that. I said something must be exchanged when Christ died.
Question: When I see Jesus in heaven, will I see the wounds in his hands?
These wounds are memorials of RA, the only RA that will ever exist ever for eternity.
Shalom