Greetings
D: "
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Sorry Robert – Only One God – monotheistic
R Your welcome to your beliefs... I see you mention Eph 4:6
What about Eph 3:10 to 16. Does this not say elohiym is a family picture?
You have a habit of ignoring verses that conflict wth the majority. Nemehia Gordon did the same, he ignores the 6 verses that says elohiym is a plural term in favour of monotheism, because it suits his views.
You are correct that the conflict of the Opposer, opposing salvation a Divine Being called Yashuah, is based mostly upon 2 verses, Isaiah 14 and Rev 12, which you also ignore.
You also ignore Ephesians 3:10 to 16, where a family picture is aligned with elohiym.
Later I will show you that salvation is based entirely upon a single verse, and the entire theological world, invents a different word meaning instead. Therefore Scripture can be confusing, if you ignore all the clues given in Scripture.
D: "Jesus the Son of Man died on the cross – Christ the Son of God – the soul of Jesus / his spirit did not die - His spirit returned to God
R I see. I don't mind as you write, the humanity of Jesus died, but you say the divinity did not die either?
Depends upon how you define death. And since you have monotheistic power, you CANNOT see my definition of death anyway. So this lends to the theme, the Scripture is intentionally confusing.
So if only a sinless human died, why couldn't John the Baptist die for our sins?, He was born sinless just as Jesus was, so was Samuel, all under the nazarine vow where the HS keep them free from sinning from birth. Why couldn't an angel die, they too are sinless and holy? Why was it necessary for YHWH to come as humanity?
You never answer this question?
Just to show resurrection? I am the resurrection? Is that it? That was a big deal to people in those days, rising from the dead is a big deal.
But if GOD is living, God is always living. SO what is amazing about rising from the dead, after all, immortality is always living.
Do you have an torah to back up your idea, why Jesus died? Shouldn't your answer come from the LAW? Especially from the judgements of law, like I discovered?
But you write and say God's law only applies to man. Wow. so easy to say. I assume God's laws applies to all of creation, and even God ITSELF. God does not change, logical and predictable, so must obey His own laws.
You say God murders humans. I say God does not do this. The Hebrew says "no wounding". This means not to take away any person from having a freewill chance of choosing GOD, as a means of salvation.
GOD is life. Not choosing GOD is not life, what humans term mortal death. If all creatures are with life from GOD, taking away that living gift by GOD is a strange act, yes, but not really an act of causing death. We all live on probation. The Amorities were given 400 years of probation for this reason. Those that died in the flood were also given years of probation with the gift of living. If GOD gives a gift to humans, surely GOD has the right in His love, to remove that gift as well? You would understand this better is you saw "Death defined as a broken relationship to God"
Thus death occurs when humans sin too much, too often and so the gift of living ends.
Does Paul, the smartest preacher we have speak of this definition?
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
GOD never changes his laws of salvation. They are written in the OT as well as the NT, and they are the same rules.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Here's a strange statement. Paul is a Jew yet says avoiid strange doctrines. And foods of tradition.
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
What is Paul saying here about Jesus?
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
These two verses are special, for they follow salvation steps or the process of how we daily receive Jesus.
Notice it begins with sacrifice. Not of beasts. But praise. The fruit of our lips.
One word is poorly translated here:
"koinonia" if you look up all verses of this word, it means "relationship" or "fellowship".
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 With good relationship, forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
Paul aligns sacrifice with relationship.
A functional relationship to Jesus is termed salvation. Love. Tov. Life. Living.
A dysfunctional relationship to Jesus is termed missing. Sin. Ra. Mischief. Death.
If mischief happens one must give eternal life for eternal life. In other words one must forever die, so the other forever lives. Sinning is that serious. The only beings capable of matching this extreme torah is divinity. Creatures do not have eternal life in them, they are mortal. Only GOD is immortal. Hence GOD as immortal must experience the second death, which one has to define properly.
And for any of this to work, you have to have divine relationship within YHWH. But you only have monotheism. So sad, that you invent ways to distort GOD.
D: "This is the POINT of Jesus Christ – death is only a mortal illusion – we continue on – just has Christ did and does
R please explain. "death is only a mortal illusion "??
D"So tell me what - מות (H4191) תמתון׃ (H4191) – means in Hebrew
R "flowing securely towards an important mark" muwth.
Both verb and noun form. Or 'flowing securely towards the Cross'.
One must study the cross, the last letter of Hebrew, to understand this idea.
I see death as the separation of relationship. This requires GOD to be a family relationship of powers.
It's OK for you to disagree. You remove relationships within YHWH, and thus remove "love" and "death" as properly defined.
So what do you see death as Dave? You say GOD cannot die. But death must be the opposite to life?
Explain the second death.
D: "Then how can you argue that satan killed Christ eternal life
R It doesn't matter what I say Dave, you cannot understand, because Scripture is intentional confusing. And this thread is all about this.
You don't have an opposite to salvation. You only GOD designing everything. So nothing is ever bad. Only a journey to move away from ra towards tov. Can you answer why one must do this?
In my world, a RA is anything not functional.
Lying is not functional.
Having another power empowering you is not functional.
Adultery is not functional.
Clearly not following the ten commandments is an act of ra.
But this is all screwed up, that somehow entrophy and friction and heat losses is natural ra, so GOD must deal with ra. Yes maybe He does, because of the sin problem.
I intoduced this topic as a thread Dave to show you scripture is intentionally confusing.
D: "
E is in a relationship with m and c2
M is in a relationship with E and c2
C2 is in a relationship with E and m
R beg ya pardon, but these expressions are not independent free will beings showing styles of loving?
Explain how an expression can be a relationship? A Jew would see your idea as polytheism?
D: "It is called a Trinity – first coined by a Gnostic named Valentinus
Catholics adopted it as – Father -, Son, and Holy Spirit
R Interesting. Such a word is not in the Hebrew.
The only word found closest to elohiym is family, in Ephesians 3:10 to 16.
Family does not mean "trinity" mankind has invented a word means.
Family is so much simpler. God created marriage, family and humans. God's words are easier to understand.
D: "I thought we were talking about a relationship with God
God spoke to Abraham – tested him – made promises to him –
how is this not a relationship?
A PERSOINAL RELATIONSHIP!
R A dog would get lonely playing with cats.
I sleep with dogs on my bed, I would rather sleep with my wife.
DO you get the picture? Adam was lonely. He had animals, He had GOD. But he felt empty.
This is God's genesis, a simile picture for a reason. But you fail to see Genesis as a simile about GOD.
"Let us make man in our image" so the "us" here are "Archons" these creatures that do not exist? They are not of angelic origin? That "shed" idea in Hebrew? "Shed" from the idea of "teats" or "breast" are references to "devils" functioning to nurture humans. The NT speaks much about "devils". They come from angels who sin and live upon planet earth among humans. Remember the war in heaven, is now a war on earth? A text you ignore.
"war" is just a "bustle", a verse you have not showed me yet. No such NT context is it?
D: "The Serpent did not lie – please study your own Hebrew
R the serpent did not lie?
wow. DO I follow you, or Scripture?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus says Satan-Devil-Serpent had lust, was a murderer and no truth in him, when he speaks , he speaks a lie, because he is a provider of lies.
But I remember you splitting Satan-Devil-Serpent into different entities?
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
But you ignore this text too? Again only one text. God only says something once. How to be saved is also spoken about once in Scripture. SO simple a child must understand too.
D: "There is not one God – there are three gods
R OK I will bite.
Marriage. Designed by GOD. When Adam and Eve were married by GOD, how many BEINGS were there in this marriage, as the Hebrew defines marriage?
Le 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
My answer is ONE BEING, but TWO persons of loving. It's not complicated. The Hebrew word "Echad" explains. The parts become the whole. And the whole is seen as cardinally ONE.
Than you mock and say God is not married nor has a wife? Correct. A simile is a simile. Poetry pictures have limits to their presentations. Similes are similes for a reason. We are made in the "image" of GOD. The reason I say "correct" is because Scripture does not say. Some mysteries are left un resolved for a reason. As David Lamb explains, it keeps us humble.
Is there any evidence of GOD functioning as heavenly parents doing "born" to their Son Jesus, with humaniity for example? Yes. Luke 1:35, TWO Persons of loving come over Yashuah, but Hebrew sees this power as ONE BEING of power. Hence it is NOT polytheism.
D: "There is only one God – and his creation
R Dave the reason why this high ranking angel who was sinless for billions of years, became a sinning angel is because GOD liked to talk secret meetings within His own family. With His SON.
It caused jealousy with one angel, the highest angel who dwelled nearest to GOD.
Scripture does not explain why Sin came, only that it did, but relationships does help answer the reason.
Suppose I spoke to you every day for hours on end, would not your wife get tired of me taking so much of your time? Now we have relationships that gnaw away at other relationships. And this may lead to sin, that causes a broke relationship. Women tend to get jealous easily don't they, especially if men witness to women about GOD.
D: "The Rabbi says – Life lives
Energy cannot be created or destroyed – only translated or transmuted – this is a Law of God
We call it a Law of Nature – but nature is God – creation is God – Only He was the First Cause
R COrrect. Hence change your definition of death. But you can't because you have only one Being, with different expressions.
I explain death as the separation of persons with the Godhead. Like a circuit broken. It stops divine flow.
SO death is an unplugged cord to the circuitry of living.
If you cause the separation of members of GOD from each other, you have a broken flow of power.
Sure energy is not lost, or ever lost, but the flow of energy can be interrupted. This is what death is.
D: "Sorry Robert – the only one that can snuff out a spirit is God into the Lake of Fire with is the second death
R So GOD can remove this "spirit" in the Lake of Fire, the second death. Great. Explain what the second death is, Dave for me...
And if GOD can remove this "spirit" than its a gift from GOD, isn't it? Not ours to keep for eternity, unless we obey God also for eternity?
D: "The humanity that came from Eve died on the cross
The divinity returned to God in heaven – did not die – continues in the after-life
Then returned in a Resurrected body – to prove this – life lives on in the after-life
Life lives
R Yes, well said, but this is NOT a sacrifice is it? What was exchanged for sinners?
When LAW says life for life, there must be an exchange. My sinful life for Jesus sinless life. My probation of living that dies, for Jesus living for eternity. Exchange. Life for life.
I do not see anything in your above words where Jesus gave up anything for humans.
Question: Does Jesus have wounds on his body in heaven? Yes/ no?
Question: DO I as a sinner declared saint, get to see those wounds on his body in heaven? Yes/ no
Question: Are these wounds of RA, the only memory of sin, throughout all eternity in heaven? Yes/no
My answer to all three questions is yes.
With tears of joy I will weep at his feet and kiss them, Kiss the Seed that died so I may live. What an exchange for eternity. This is the only RA memorial retained in all eternity, the wounds in the hands of Jesus. The sin problem will ever rise again, for now all the universe knows both tov and ra. Something we never needed to experience, but did, because a single angel once sinless decided to sin, because I suppose he was jealous of the relationship the Father had with His Son.
Shalom