Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2020 5:30:33 GMT -5
D: But if man is a robot – with only yester tov – then yester ra IS NOT AVAILIBLE to choose
R First no creature is a robot, because angels and mankind are described in Scripture with "chata", a Hebrew word that means the creature can choose to sin. (Your GOD intentionally designing sinning creatures is a myth)
Second if a creature is allowed to experience love, than the creature can choose to respond to love or not respond to love. (Coding in the mind for both is not really necessary) It's simply a choice a person makes.
This kind of choice is in Hebrew all the time:
For example the word barak, means to bless. But if I choose not to bless, I can do it's opposite, ie, curse.
Both examples are in Scripture for barak.
Another Hebrew word is test. It's opposite meaning is tempt.
So one can choose to love. The opposite of love is to hate. But its the same idea as the above examples.
D: "I know – your serpent is not in the garden until AFTER Eve chose yester ra which she did not have
R: You make a good point
But just because some angels did sinning, causing ra to enter 1/10 of our universe, do not mean Man's Creation was impacted by their RA.
You assume this.
God created for mankind a perfect very functional world, despite sinning angels already in it.
D: "Agree – our world was perfect in God’s eyes
No sin BEFORE creation – I know you misspoke
R: yes correct
D: "You agree some angels committed ra before man – but that did not change anything –
If it did not change anything – how could it influence our world
You agree some angels committed ra before man – and to where were they ejected - earth
R:" Yes correct. this is why "darkness" is in our Creation for mankind, some ra influences may have impacted our world, But GOD in His eyes saw His Creation as very functional. correct.
(bare in mind the Gnostics writings do not say what you have said. Gnostics writings say the Father allowed a flawed Creation on purpose with Adam with RA already in him, as I am lead to believe from your earlier statements and from Gnostic writings.)
Dave: "If they were perfect – they would have never chose to disobey
If all they had was yester tov – then that is all they could choose -
If all they had was yester tov – they would have been yester tov robots – just like praising angels
Rob: "Your ideas miss a fundamental logic, why must perfect beings have yester ra in them to make a choice for yester ra? Why is this even necessary in your thinking?
Disobedience does not require Self, or propensities or ra, disobedience can be powered by love, it's the opposite of love.
Your idea of perfect may be wrong. Jeff Benner says perfect means to be complete. Love is the only word required in the DNA of man to make choice. Hate is the opposite of love.
Hate is too strong a word for opposite of love.
Doubt is a better opposite. You either love openly GOD or you doubt God. Such a simple step is the beginning of the seed called ra. Does Ra have an origin? No Can ra be explained? no
What is ra? Scripture does not define RA, nor chata, nor sin. It only says sin is the transgression of law. What is law?
Negative comments about how not to love. No wounding. No stealing. No lying. etc
What's the first royal torah law about? No saviour but me, humble not pride.
Humility is looking out for others, its relational. Pride is the opposite. One who looks out for himself.
What causes this change? Scripture says RA comes from missing. Missing what? Missing the love of GOD.
Death is also a missing of God's power of living in you. So you do not need code to define ra, or yester ra, these ideas are people simply missing GOD in their lives.
By the way praising angels are not robots, they choose to love because they are in love with GOD. They love because they have a free will that loves freely.
R: Disobedience or sin, brings yester ra. It came running into their body after they chose to sin.
D: "Sin came running into their bodies AFTER they sinned
Do you not see how ridicules your statements are
R: Sorry Dave, you missed the object of the verb, maybe my mistake.
Disobedience or sin, brings yester ra. RA came running into their body after they chose to sin.
Hope this make sense to you.
R:"(1) "Where does the spirit form get its power of living from? From itself or from GOD?
D: "DUH-from the mother – the HS that sustains all things – visible and invisible – the sustainer
R: "Well if the "spirit form" gets its power from the HS, than the our spirit is not divine is it? Nor powerful, unless GOD grants you power. You just said our spirit is always dependent on GOD, therefore not immortal.
R: "(2) "Why can't people with spirits simply command created things into existence like GOD can? Why don't they have the awesome power, such a "spirit form" should have?
D: "Why can’t a cow create = why can’t an ant create – because they are not the One True God – the only Creator
R: "Than our spirit, is just a myth than, you really talking about the HS who sustains you, and when you die the HS goes back to GOD, and your spirit with GOD ends. But is not forgotten. Your spirit can be forgotten if you are sent to the lake of fire, the second death.
Yes the Creator is all that can truly create, But you have Yalbaoth the chief archon creating in Gnostic writings, so you statement above is not correct, because you follow GNostics writings.
My statment is like you wrote. GOD only can create. Satan or other sinning angels cannot create.
Dave: "If ruwach can never mean nepesh then Christ can never mean Son of God
If nepesh can never mean ruwach than the Son of Man and the Son of God MUST be two people
Two names = two people
Rob: Hmm? OK I agree polysemy is not nice. I like Hebrew to have one meaning.
ruwach. It commonly means 1) wind 2) HS and 3) our spirit.
Resolve this to one meaning.
Ruwach is Agency.
Wind is an agency, a fancy term for medium. An agency is something that carries someone else's power.
HS is an agency. Every Bible text the HS is in a agency context.
Our spirit is also an agency. You said yourself we are sustained by the HS, so our gift of living, our gift to freely choose comes via divine beings who function as agencies in humans.
So ruwach in one meaning means Agency. Something that carries the power for sombody else.
Not sure if this helps you, but I am trying to view your view.
D: "Spirit – soul – same basic meaning – but you deny this
R: I have to Dave, here's why
Agency (ruwach/spirit) carries your right to be you, so you live and do as you want to do, this gift comes from GOD.
Therefore only GOD is living. Matter cannot live on it's own. Therefore we need an Agency.
The Agency as a Being is Divine, of GOD.
Soul: is the agency empowering matter, so it lives.
The terms are very different.
Dave: "God did not break of a piece of the HS and breath it into man as his living energy
We are not pieces of the HS – we are our own spirit that God mated into our animal bodies
R: "Correct, we are not a piece of divine.
But the Agency empowers us to be alive, to be us, to do as we want to do.
Dave: "We are HS robots – we do not exist – we are all just broken of bits of God?
Rob: "No. we are not broken bits of GOD.
Take matter, electric jug. Take wall socket. The divine power source. Take the cord of faith, the agency affect.
Connect all three together, power source Father, Agency cord HS and jug You matter, and we have living energy.
Is anything broken off from GOD here? No, energy just flows from the Father into His matter He created so this creature does what GOD intended it do , love freely with free will.
R: "This does not make man a robot, for this gift also comes with free will as well, so we are free to abuse
D: "Robert – WHO IS THE WE in your sentence
You go on and on there is no we – impossible – we are not independent – we are administered by the HS – we are HS puppets
Robert – WHO IS THE WE in your sentence
WE – have to be independent from the HS or the HS is abusing itself
The "We" is You and GOD, you are always with GOD or not. You are free to love GOD or not love GOD. Love is always relational. Always patnered. I think your problem may be you see theh Father all alone, that being all alone is OK, that the Father gets love and gives love to His Creation, for companionship.
I asked you for a Bible verse where GOD gets companionship for His Creatures. I can't find one.
Elohiym is pictured as a family power. Judges on the bar are families of judges, for example.
If you see GOD as relational you might understand love better. Loving your guitar is not true love. Love has to come from creatures of your kind. That's what Adam saw. Adam felt lonely.
The Father would be lonely if there was no divine Mother and no divine Son. This is only part of "We".
God also being relational loves other creatures not of His Kind. Jews near stoned Jesus for claiming to be like GOD, but Jesus said doesn't torah say we are like god, children of the Most High.
We are like GOD is GOD empowers us to be like Him, this is the "We" in my sentence. It is our spirit.
D: "So when a dog barks – it is God howling at the moon
And when a cow decides to walk across the road – it is God making that decision
R: Dave no human can encode human emotions in robotic programs. We come close.
No program is close to human intelligence, But we have come close.
Why can't we come close? Because code is not love, not irrational like love can be, but isn't.
Love is kind patient, but also unpredictable.
Where does love come from? A programmer doesn't know. You ask too big a question sometimes. You think too deeply.
If a programmer writes code, so the robot barks at the moon like a doggie robot, who did the barking?
The dog, the code, the programme, or the creator of the robot, the code and the programme? Which is it?
Shalom my friend