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Post by Dave on Sept 30, 2020 22:11:05 GMT -5
R: "When Adam and Eve sinned, our universe changed D: "I make fun of your – “There was no serpent until Eve took a bite theology” It is fantasy
For a year – you argue that it was satan that changed everything – two opposing God’s locked in a Great Controversy Now – ra doesn’t even exist until Eve takes a bite
R: of course a serpent was there on earth, so was darkness, both of these are fruits of doing RA. Just because a bunch of angels sinned causing RA, causing GOD too to administrate this RA, by creating RA affects, so sin can be seen, does not mean the entire universes of his domain is affected by this RA. I imagine the RA from these sinning angels was restricted to them. GOD created a tov universe for mankind, without ra in the matter of it's creation. Can't GOD do anything He likes? So Creation was declared very functional.
DOes the Bible make a big deal of SIN.... did SIN change everything?
If the sin of the angels is restricted just to them Why isn’t Adam sin restricted just to man? Instead you say it affects the whole world
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
Now you have me so confused Cherub chata –this is the sin that changed all creation Or Adam chata was the sin that change all creation
So when you speak of the father of lies – or the murder from the beginning Who are you talking about – Adam –or your cherub chata
Which theology do you support?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 13:29:15 GMT -5
It's amazing how when you live in a cultural group, your entire perspective of theology changes.
It's plain in Scripture, that Sin is a big deal.
R: "When Adam and Eve sinned, our universe changed
R: of course a serpent was there on earth, so was darkness, both of these are fruits of doing RA. Just because a bunch of angels sinned causing RA, causing GOD too to administrate this RA, by creating RA affects, so sin can be seen, does not mean the entire universes of his domain is affected by this RA. I imagine the RA from these sinning angels was restricted to them. GOD created a tov universe for mankind, without ra in the matter of it's creation. Can't GOD do anything He likes? So Creation was declared very functional.
DOes the Bible make a big deal of SIN.... did SIN change everything?
Dave:" If the sin of the angels is restricted just to them Why isn’t Adam sin restricted just to man? Instead you say it affects the whole world
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
Now you have me so confused Cherub chata –this is the sin that changed all creation Or Adam chata was the sin that change all creation
D: "So when you speak of the father of lies – or the murder from the beginning Who are you talking about – Adam –or your cherub chata
Which theology do you support?
Adam's sin wrought RA into our world, because as humans we were once prince of our kingdom of Creation, and through our own missing brought RA into our world of creation.
The only reason the father of lies, or the murder from the beginning, the cherub chata, is mentioned is because this angel was the first creature in the entire universes of time, to be recorded as choosing to sin, by using his own free will.
I was thinking with GOD today, that you have sinning as a behaviour designed intentionally by GOD in some functions of angels, completely destroys relationship, relational designs of free will, and totally destroys the aspect of what sinning is: SIN is a relational choice NOT to love functionally.
You CANNOT make robotic creatures violating love as a response in this way. Such as intentional design violates LOVE, and makes mockery of love.
You imagine behaviour can be robotically designed. Nothing can be further from programming. You can program robots to do stuff, most programmers program functional things. The myth of matrix movie for example of robots killing humans to protect them from killing themselves is silly idea.
And if a GOD did this robotic thing to angels on purpose, if means you do not have a GOD of function you can trust. You have merely an irrational GOD who can design whatever He likes and humans have to turn to HIM because they have no choice. Turn to Him or die. This is not based on love at all.
My model is totally soooo different to yours. I turn to GOD because I love Him and He loves me. GOD is always TOV. DO you think for a minute GOD wanted to create RA, even though GOD knew RA, and all the missing of sin it would bring?
Consider what RA is? RA is the fruit of love not working properly. It's disobedience. Would GOD intentionally create disobedience in some angels? No Such a thing violates His character.
Read through Romans first 5 chapters, noting that sin came into being because of law.
GOD follows his own laws. The makes GOD logical and predictable.
Ro 2:12 For <gar> as many as <hosos> have sinned <hamartano> without law <anomos> shall <apollumi> also <kai> perish <apollumi> without law <anomos>: and <kai> as many as <hosos> have sinned <hamartano> in <en> the law <nomos> shall be judged <krino> by <dia> the law <nomos>;
hamartano is chata, so all who do chata, are missing GOD in their lives.
Ro 3:23 For <gar> all <pas> have sinned <hamartano>, and <kai> come short <hustereo> of the glory <doxa> of God <theos>;
The same idea, all humans do daily sinning all the time.
Where did this sinning we choose to do come from?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore <dia> <touto>, as <hosper> by <dia> one <heis> man <anthropos> sin <hamartia> entered <eiserchomai> into <eis> the world <kosmos>, and <kai> death <thanatos> by <dia> sin <hamartia>; and <kai> so <houto> death <thanatos> passed <dierchomai> upon <eis> all <pas> men <anthropos>, for <epi> that <hos> all <pas> have sinned <hamartano>:
Sin-offering "hamartia" entered into our world, because of Adam's first sinning, and since all humans are sinning, our only solution is to enter into this "sin-offering", which is personified as a Being, who removes our penalty from sinning.
Ro 5:16 And <kai> not <ou> as <hos> it was by <dia> one <heis> that sinned <hamartano>, so is the gift <dorema>: for <gar> <men> the judgment <krima> was by <ek> one <heis> to <eis> condemnation <katakrima>,
The one human who sinned wrought "condemnation <katakrima>,"
What does this "condemnation <katakrima>," mean? It's a court term, GOD condemned mankind because one human sinned.
It's difficult to fathom what a word means, if it has only 3 sentences of use. SO use a related word (assuming words are related)
Joh 8:11 <de> She said <epo>, No man <oudeis>, Lord <kurios>. And <de> Jesus <Iesous> said <epo> unto her <autos>, Neither <oude> do <katakrino> I <ego> condemn <katakrino> thee <se>: go <poreuomai>, and <kai> sin <hamartano> no more <meketi>.
Notice the use of katakrino here with hamartano?
Why do humans condemn her, but Jesus does not condemn her?
Because the humans think to function as rulers who rule over her in judgement.
Ro 8:3 God <theos> sending <pempo> his own <heautou> Son <huios> in <en> the likeness <homoioma> of sinful <hamartia> flesh <sarx>, and <kai> for <peri> sin <hamartia>, condemned <katakrino> sin <hamartia> in <en> the flesh <sarx>:
Here is a clue, Once we do sinning our epi-genetics changes, that this genetic function thinks to rule over us.
Ro 5:19 For <gar> as <hosper> by <dia> one <heis> man's <anthropos> disobedience <parakoe> many <polus> were made <kathistemi> sinners <hamartolos>, so <houto> <kai> by <dia> the obedience <hupakoe> of one <heis> shall <kathistemi> many <polus> be made <kathistemi> righteous <dikaios>.
But to our world you didn't translate so well with me in agreement: "kathistemi" means "to establish a ruler who rules"
SO far we see "1 epigenetics can rule over you"
"2 external rulers can also rule over you"
I note from your Gnostic writings the archons rule over us, making humans dull in senses. When Scriptures use the term "rule" is does not mean as you claim it to mean, like a dictator telling you want to do all the time, but the term is broad, like an influence.
The COV 19 influence rules over me and my work all the time, with silly rules I have to follow, but know these rules make no sense, however even a drop in the ocean ripples influence everywhere.
"3 another ruler is a prince" Mankind was a prince, the term "son of man" refers to this idea. Adam was a prince of man, the first man, like a king is you like, in charge of protecting his genes which is passed to all mankind.
SO when SIN entered our world through Adam, such missing is a big deal to GOD.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 1, 2020 15:45:13 GMT -5
It's amazing how when you live in a cultural group, your entire perspective of theology changes. And it doesn’t bother you that you and your SDA friend are so disconnected from the rest
It's plain in Scripture, that Sin is a big deal. R: "When Adam and Eve sinned, our universe changed
R: of course a serpent was there on earth, so was darkness, both of these are fruits of doing RA. Just because a bunch of angels sinned causing RA, causing GOD too to administrate this RA, by creating RA affects, so sin can be seen, does not mean the entire universes of his domain is affected by this RA. I imagine the RA from these sinning angels was restricted to them.
So – what you are saying is – that when your cherub chata – nothing changed
GOD created a tov universe for mankind, without ra in the matter of it's creation. Can't GOD do anything He likes? So Creation was declared very functional. So no war in heaven – your sinning angels are allowed to stay in heaven in God presence I thought this was your proof
Adam's sin wrought RA into our world, because as humans we were once prince of our kingdom of Creation, and through our own missing brought RA into our world of creation.
So Adam was the “sar” of this world – I thought your sinning angels were cast to earth? Then after Adam sinned – then the sinning agles were allowed in the world and the serpent comes with them
So after Eve took a bite – the serpent came into this world to temp her
The only reason the father of lies, or the murder from the beginning, the cherub chata, is mentioned is because this angel was the first creature in the entire universes of time, to be recorded as choosing to sin, by using his own free will. OK – but you just said this didn’t change anything Nothing changes until Adam – it did n;t eben change with EVE – we had to wait for Adam
You imagine behaviour can be robotically designed. Nothing can be further from programming. You can program robots to do stuff, most programmers program functional things. Ants do what they do Mice do what they do Baboons did what they do Why do bears hibernate Why do birds migrate with the seasons You imagine behavior can be robotically designed YES! – it is called self-preservation / instinct – programmed
Man is special – even tho man is an animal with self-preservation / instinct We can rise above that to a spiritual walk – one where a man is willing to die for another Die for another – that = anti-self-preservation
My model is totally soooo different to yours. I turn to GOD because I love Him and He loves me. GOD is always TOV. DO you think for a minute GOD wanted to create RA, even though GOD knew RA, and all the missing of sin it would bring? Yes! The difference between us is that I do not have to deny scripture to support my view In the ahl – God says He does it for He is Jehovah In the agl – it says by Him for Him I do not have to call God or scripture a lier – wrong – in error – or incorrect
GOD follows his own laws. The makes GOD logical and predictable. You say this – but you fail to demonstrate what you mean God is not bound by the 10 Commandments – we have discussed this at length You even posed a video for me to watch supporting my view I give you example of God killing people and you EVADE If God is predictable – then why is there any mystery
Joh 8:11 (TLV)“No one, Sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Yeshua said. “Go, and sin no more.”
You ask - #1 Why do humans condemn her, but Jesus does not condemn her? Your answer - Because the humans think to function as rulers who rule over her in judgement. OK – Agree
You also ask - #2 Why didn’t Jesus does not condemn her?
Rom 8:3 For what was impossible for the Torah—since it was weakened on account of the flesh—God has done. Sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as a sin offering, He condemned sin in the flesh—
And conclude - Here is a clue, Once we do sinning our epi-genetics changes, that this genetic function thinks to rule over us.
What does this mean? Jesus does not condemn her because 1- she doesn’t deserve to be 2- this mean Jesus is not without sin as well 3- she is already saved 4- it was not the right time for Jesus to judge – because she is still alive and still has an opportunity to repent
You do not answer – you talk of genetics and rulers
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Post by Dave on Oct 2, 2020 3:08:48 GMT -5
It's much easier for me, simply I see mankind as matter only. If man is only an animal – and Romans 1 declares that God is clearly visible if we seriously look at creation itself. Please explain Out of Body Experiences (OBEs) You and I have discussed Ayahuasca before – people who take it always return feeling connected to a larger realityRespond please – if man is just an animal – is all this documentation just fake How much of your world must you deny?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 16:05:06 GMT -5
Dave: "Respond please – if man is just an animal – is all this documentation just fake How much of your world must you deny?
You don't get deceptiveness of Satan, the father of SINNING do you? He is also a father of hypnotism, visions, and such things, as well as deceiving people, that the "body shall not die".
Ge 3:4 And the serpent <nachash> said <'amar> unto the woman <'ishshah>, Ye shall not surely <muwth> die <muwth>:
This is a lie, that the SOUL cannot experience muwth muwth. It's written twice for a reason. The second death, is a permanent separation from GOD, and you are no more.
Of course the Devil is capable of making mankind believe in all kinds of things, I do not deny anything that EVIL can fabricate. It's real, but is all a lie.
But you are so fascinated by the idea of spirit that can leave the body... well it's a deception from the Devil. "Ye shall not surely <muwth> die <muwth>"
Just because things are evil, doesn't mean GOD doesn't doesn't play around with evil people, or even evil deceptions, in order to talk to such people (can you handle a sentence with a double negative in it? )
In other words, more positive...
God uses the witchcraft and spirit mediums to talk to Saul. God used the hell idea and the talking Abraham to speak to Jews steeped in this deception. God even used Cyrus who was not really a straight person, to do straight things. God even used the king of Babylon, gets him to believe in God, a king who actually opposed God, it's amazing how GOD is not put out by evil people or their evil deceptions. You have pointed out to me GOD is clever enough to make RA, into purposeful TOV, like the Jews in the world war II experience.
SO it makes it hard to fathom truth from error, if you are mixed up in evil and evil ways. So how do we know truth from error? we study the torah teachings, all the verses on the subject, not just the majority we like, ignore the minor ones we don't like, which is what Jews like Gordon does with "elohiym" for example. This is not going to give you truth.
Gordon writes of the 3,500 verses of elohiym, he purposefully ignores 6 verses he doesn't like.
Ok to place an science objective to your question:
Why was the pineal gland shut down when mankind sinned in Eden? Why is this eye pictured by Evil men and Evil sinning angels?
"The pineal gland is a small, pea-shaped gland in the brain. Its function isn't fully understood. Researchers do know that it produces and regulates some hormones, including melatonin. Melatonin is best known for the role it plays in regulating sleep patterns".
"The pineal gland was commonly dubbed the “third eye” for many reasons, including its location deep in the center of the brain and its connection to light. Mystic and esoteric spiritual traditions suggest it serves as a metaphysical connection between the physical and spiritual worlds"
Of course this function is real Dave, but we are NOT to play around with it. It was shut down for a reason, since Eden times.
www.mentalfloss.com/article/89666/10-mysterious-facts-about-pineal-gland
7. …AND TINY ANIMAL SPIRITS IN THE BRAIN.
Descartes thought that within the pineal gland, tiny animal spirits were like “a very fine wind, or rather a very lively and pure flame,” feeding life into the many small arteries that surround the gland. This was likely due to his abysmal understanding of anatomy and physiology.
8. IT'S BEEN CALLED THE "THIRD EYE."
The pineal gland was commonly dubbed the “third eye” for many reasons, including its location deep in the center of the brain and its connection to light. Mystic and esoteric spiritual traditions suggest it serves as a metaphysical connection between the physical and spiritual worlds.
Such documentation you would love to read about and study. I don't.
I imagine the pineal gland allows our mind to communicate to other beings without words, sounds or light. This is a theory of mine only. Like one day we can have an intelligent conversation with plants, any animal and even other beings trillions of light years away.
But for now such an organ is shut down. Some Indian priests say they see orgone colours over us.
Orgone energy is another science study, I have studied, the coloured powers of the Father all over us.
But you're talking about "spirit visions" "out of body experience".
Scripture says whatever is pure and holy and good think on these things. I would not suggest you get involved with such things like these .
Ellen White "Men and women are not to study the science of how to take captive the minds of those who associate with them. This is the science that Satan teaches. We are to resist everything of the kind. We are not to tamper with mesmerism and hypnotism—the science of the one lost his first estate, and was cast out of the heavenly courts."
Happy Sabbath my friend
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2020 6:16:05 GMT -5
You don't get deceptiveness of Satan, the father of SINNING do you? He is also a father of hypnotism, visions, and such things, as well as deceiving people, that the "body shall not die".
How does man having a spirit mean the “body doesn’t die?” You post a ridicules premise – now you will argue against what you just said
Ge 3:4 And the serpent <nachash> said <'amar> unto the woman <'ishshah>, Ye shall not surely <muwth> die <muwth>:
This is a lie, that the SOUL cannot experience muwth muwth. It's written twice for a reason. The second death, is a permanent separation from GOD, and you are no more.
You argue that man is not a soul – no spirit form Now you argue that the SOUL cannot do something
OK MR Hebrew – what does מות (H4191) תמתון׃ (H4191) - mean
One is a noun and one is verb in future tense What does this mean in Hebrew? Because in the (LXX) and in the English it means Just because you die (mortally – here) does not means you are going to die in the future Dying does not mean your will die in the future
Is this a lie? – I thought this was the whole point of Christianity We are all going to die mortally – but this does not mean we lost to the Lake of Fire Isn’t this the point of salvation Of course the Devil is capable of making mankind believe in all kinds of things, So – salvation is a deception?
But you are so fascinated by the idea of spirit that can leave the body... well it's a deception from the Devil. "Ye shall not surely <muwth> die <muwth>" YES! – when we die our Spirit leaves our body and returns to God – I believe this
SO it makes it hard to fathom truth from error, if you are mixed up in evil and evil ways. So how do we know truth from error? we study the torah teachings, all the verses on the subject, not just the majority we like, ignore the minor ones we don't like, which is what Jews like Gordon does with "elohiym" for example. This is not going to give you truth.
Gordon writes of the 3,500 verses of elohiym, he purposefully ignores 6 verses he doesn't like.
So how do we know truth from error? For one – stop denying that reality is not the truth You talk of others denying or ignoring evidence – yet you demand that science, history, current events, and interdimensional beings are all wrong Just because you personally have never had a spiritual experience does not mean it doesn’t exist
To place an science objective to your question: pineal gland OK – how does this organ of matter see itself from afar? Please answer
8. IT'S BEEN CALLED THE "THIRD EYE." OK – very Hindu - and if you know anything about Hinduism this is not the conscious thought – but the subconscious self that knows better I am good with that
But you're talking about "spirit visions" "out of body experience". YES! I am – the ability to glimpse the next dimension – spirit realm John, James, and Peter look right into it when they saw Christ Transfigured Paul writes about is as he is taken into heaven Ezekiel writes about interdimensional beings Enoch writes about traveling through the heavens – out of body – so does Paul John speaks of time travel in the spirit
Scripture says whatever is pure and holy and good think on these things. I would not suggest you get involved with such things like these .
The entire point of Christianity is spiritualism The Holy Spirit in communion with our spirit
Why are you a spirit denyer How can there be angels or evil spirits if there is no such thing as spirit How can the Holy Spirit commune with your spirit – if you have none
Ellen White "Men and women are not to study the science Ellen White is not Torah – she is just the wife of an elder of a failed prophesy group Precepts of men Ellen White "Men and women are not to study the science Sure – deny Intelligent Design – deny reality – believe in vegetarian sharks instead and what ever you do - do not be able to witness to your neighbor
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2020 9:22:53 GMT -5
So how do we know truth from error?For one – stop denying that reality is not the truthYou talk of others denying or ignoring evidence – yet you demand that science, history, current events, and interdimensional beings are all wrong Just because you personally have never had a spiritual experience does not mean it doesn’t exist Just because you have never seen a UFO - DOES NOT MEAN no one has What is a UFO – it is an UNIDENTIFIED thing moving in the airScripture has many stories of angels being seen in the air and on the ground Scripture has many stories of evil spirit moving in and on the earth Scripture tells us of beings that sometimes animals can see but we cannot And scripture tells us of chariots in the heavens Question – is all this scripture false and deceiving?[/b][/font] [/quote] Scripture is tells of – “spirit visions” Scripture tells of out-of-body experiences – Enoch and PaulQuestion – is all this scripture false and deceiving?Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; Joh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Mat_22:37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ Mar_12:30 And you shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ Luk_10:27 And he replied, “You shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” Heart, Mind, and soulWhy do you deny the soul?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2020 15:58:55 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
this website helps me:
gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
I chose this one is reliable enough, and positive for you?
1. Gnostics hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.
Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world.
Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed creation and its flawed creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics.
Rob: yes we battled for months.
2. The Gnostic God concept is more subtle than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the recognitions of Monotheism and Polytheism, as well as of Theism, Deism and Pantheism.
Rob: yes, your expressions idea, your E=mc2.
3. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.
Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny.
Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.
Rob: we are talking about this now, the spirit. What is it?
4. Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. The Gnostic concept of salvation, like other Gnostic concepts, is a subtle one.
5. To the Gnostic, commandments and rules are not salvific; they are not substantially conducive to salvation. Rules of conduct may serve numerous ends, including the structuring of an ordered and peaceful society, and the maintenance of harmonious relations within social groups. Rules, however, are not relevant to salvation; that is brought about only by Gnosis.
6. Death does not automatically bring about liberation from bondage in the realms of the Demiurge. Those who have not attained to a liberating Gnosis while they were in embodiment may become trapped in existence once more. It is quite likely that this might occur by way of the cycle of rebirths. Gnosticism does not emphasize the doctrine of reincarnation prominently, but it is implicitly understood in most Gnostic teachings that those who have not made effective contact with their transcendental origins while they were in embodiment would have to return into the sorrowful condition of earthly life.
In regard to salvation, or the fate of the spirit and soul after death, one needs to be aware that help is available. Valentinus, the greatest of Gnostic teachers, taught that Christ and Sophia await the spiritual man -- the pneumatic Gnostic -- at the entrance of the Pleroma, and help him to enter the bridechamber of final reunion.
R: Your character development gets only ONE chance of development, not as you claim.
7 Conclusion : The Gnostic world view has always been timely, for it always responded best to the “knowledge of the heart” that is true Gnosis. Yet today, its timeliness is increasing, for the end of the second millennium has seen the radical deterioration of many ideologies which evaded the great questions and answers addressed by Gnosticism. The clarity, frankness, and authenticity of the Gnostic answer to the questions of the human predicament cannot fail to impress and (in time) to convince. If your reactions to this summary have been of a similarly positive order, then perhaps you are a Gnostic yourself!
+ Stephan A. Hoeller (Tau Stephanus, Gnostic Bishop)
So this is all written by a Gnostic himself. And is positive for you.
Now to a Christian writer, who paints a different view:
www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-96/gnosticism-unmasked.html
GNOSTIC VIEW
GOD - There are two opposing Gods: the supreme, spiritual, unknown Father who is distant from the world and revealed only by Christ; and the subordinate, ignorant, and evil creator of the world (Demiurge).
So this archon creator, this Yalboath being, created by the HS, helps in man creation, but when I questioned you on this, you point to flawed translations, so this two gods opposing each other is not true for you?
WORLD - The material world crafted by the Demiurge is evil and keeps the spiritual ones from perfection. It must perish and be escaped.
You stick to Creation of matter being inherently flawed with RA. You say mankind inherently with yester ra from birth, even created this way.
HUMANITY - The Gnostics are by nature the elite, spiritual ones, for they have the "seed" of the spiritual realm inside them. This divine spark (the spirit) is trapped within the material, fleshly body and yearns for release from this evil dungeon.
The "spirit" is a " spark or seed" yearns for release from the body of ra.
SALVATION Only the immortal spirit of the Gnostic is saved as it gains release from material captivity and returns to the Father's spiritual realm. Salvation is by knowledge (gnosis)—by knowing that the true God is the Father, not the Demiurge, and that the true home of the spirit is its place of origin, the Father's realm, not the material world with its bodies of flesh.
CHRIST Christ is a spiritual, divine being from the Father's realm who comes to the world to reveal the Father and the true identity of the spiritual ones, the Gnostics. Christ did not become incarnate or suffer on the cross. Instead, he either merely seemed to be human or temporarily inhabited a human being named "Jesus."
We have not discussed these things?
D: "Why do you deny the soul?
R: I do not deny the soul.
D: "Joh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
R: through SIN epigenetics our flesh DNA is corrupt. We require a new character development that removes epigenetic propensities gradually.
I think you see this as, a man getting a brand new experience, from a spirit world.
The man asked how can a man be born a second time, indicating the birth is about changing what we already have. Jesus did not mention a brand new world of experience, but the gradual change of the birth you already have.
Notice :
Ps 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Is this not the clearest statement on the second birth?
Does it talk about getting a brand new world of spirit, or simply changing the spirit you already have, making changes to your old character and getting a character that is similar to GOD's character?
Verse 10 and 11 are poetry parallels. Create in me a new heart = same as placing a new spirit in me is same as NOT removing me from your presence, is same as receiving the HS.
D: "The Holy Spirit in communion with our spirit R: " Yes, the development of the same character GOD has, ie love.
But you have GOD with both tov and ra, so why develop a human with only tov, if they have both tov and ra the same as GOD already? We are already the same as GOD according to you (tov and ra) and yet you require man to develop only tov?
Your logic is flawed.
If GOD KNOWS both tov and RA, and sometimes DOES RA to sinners can see their SIN, GOD does NOT ever DO RA naturally, because GOD is only TOV, hence why GOD wants humans with both tov and ra to develop TOV character's like GOD's tov character.
D: "Scripture tells of out-of-body experiences – Enoch and Paul
R: Ellen White had hundreds of visions, and never talked about a out of body experience. Are you sure a out of body experience is a vision?
D: "Dying does not mean your will die in the future
R" correct the first death is a sleep, the second death is permanent separation from GOD.
The HS administrates your character development, so that you (mere matter, a creature) hold onto to love traits that are similar to God's traits of love.
The fact the HS administrates our character development and preserves our development of our character, makes us humans very special to GOD, above all other animals.
Help me through your theory:
When the spirit trapped in the matter of ra called a body, does yester ra, where does the yester ra come from? the spirit or the body of ra?
If you say the spirit, than the spirit becomes the author of thoughts and hence doing ra.
If you say the body, the body is merely the machinery for the spirit?
Why does Jesus say,
Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Does this mean the body is responsible for yester ra, or is the mind responsible, the spirit is the seat of the mind is it not?
I read this verse as your choose to follow Jesus with perfection, but our body is trapped in propensities, fails to live up to your choices to be with GOD.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2020 21:10:54 GMT -5
DO NOT PULL UP SOME OTHER WEBSITE AND CLAIM IT TO BE MY VIEW! I can pull up 10,000 articles by Christians that you would not agree with
gnosis.org/gnintro.htm chose this one is reliable enough, and positive for you?
1. Gnostics hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner. YES! – in a sense – physicality comes with entropy – entropy is a decay – a wearing down Entropy is inherent to creation – a by-product od neg-entropy Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. YES! – You insist that Adam is to blame for everything – even tho it was Eve IN Fact – the serpent could not even enter this world to temp Eve until Adam sinned.
2. The Gnostic God concept is more subtle than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the recognitions of Monotheism and Polytheism, as well as of Theism, Deism and Pantheism. Monotheism only – there is only one God and two expressions
3. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.
Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny.
Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.
Hmmmm? – Agree – we are animal + soul – which is a divine spark = our spirit Reincarnation – Both Judaism and Gnosticism have the option for a – “Do Over” – Agree No one thinks this is common or happen to everyone all the time – but the option exist
Rob: we are talking about this now, the spirit. What is it? Spirit is who we are – Spirit is who God is Animal only exist in mortal 3D land
4. Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. The Gnostic concept of salvation, like other Gnostic concepts, is a subtle one. The point is gnosis – absolute assuredness – without the glimmer of doubt = fact Belief = is not fact – belief is the best guess for hope Beliefs change – facts do not
edit - Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin but rather from the ignorance I don't disagree - - but these are not my words Question - do we need salvation from sin, or ignorance? Answer - What were the two trees - "life" and "Knowledge of tov and ra" Eve chose knowledge - and discovered she made an ignorant choice If we truely KNOW BETTER - why do we choose chata instead of mitzvah? Answer - ingorance what is the result of our ignorance? = sin
This is a chicken and egg conflict - which came first In the case of Eve - ignorance came first for her to choose chata Now that you and I know full well what happened and the consequences - we know better
5. To the Gnostic, commandments and rules are not salvific; they are not substantially conducive to salvation. Rules of conduct may serve numerous ends, including the structuring of an ordered and peaceful society, and the maintenance of harmonious relations within social groups. Rules, however, are not relevant to salvation; that is brought about only by Gnosis.
Worship has nothing to do with salvation Religious activity has nothing to do with salvation Salvation only comes through a personal communion spirit to spirit Communion with God via the Spirit Being Born Again – of Spirit by Spirit
But you deny the spirit – man is just an animal with memories
6. Death does not automatically bring about liberation from bondage in the realms of the Demiurge. Those who have not attained to a liberating Gnosis while they were in embodiment may become trapped in existence once more. It is quite likely that this might occur by way of the cycle of rebirths. Gnosticism does not emphasize the doctrine of reincarnation prominently, but it is implicitly understood in most Gnostic teachings that those who have not made effective contact with their transcendental origins while they were in embodiment would have to return into the sorrowful condition of earthly life.
The authors of the Nag Hammadi do not stress reincarnation as the way thing work The authors of the Nag Hammadi simple state it as an option The authors of the Nag Hammadi speak of Jewish Proportional Punishment We are tormented until we forget what we forgot
In regard to salvation, or the fate of the spirit and soul after death, one needs to be aware that help is available. Valentinus, the greatest of Gnostic teachers, taught that Christ and Sophia await the spiritual man -- the pneumatic Gnostic -- at the entrance of the Pleroma, and help him to enter the bridechamber of final reunion.
If we are quoting Valentinius then we are speaking of only the Born Again (spiritual man) John tell us that Christ and the Comforter are there to help us at all times
7 Conclusion : The Gnostic world view has always been timely, for it always responded best to the “knowledge of the heart” that is true Gnosis. Yet today, its timeliness is increasing, for the end of the second millennium has seen the radical deterioration of many ideologies which evaded the great questions and answers addressed by Gnosticism. The clarity, frankness, and authenticity of the Gnostic answer to the questions of the human predicament cannot fail to impress and (in time) to convince. If your reactions to this summary have been of a similarly positive order, then perhaps you are a Gnostic yourself!
+ Stephan A. Hoeller (Tau Stephanus, Gnostic Bishop)
Gnosis. Yet today, its timeliness is increasing YES! – rediscovered and address to the generation of the end-of-days for the end of the second millennium has seen the radical deterioration of many ideologies YES! – the legacy of the church has left a bad taste in the public view ideologies which evaded the great questions and answers addressed by Gnosticism. YES! – Roman satan doctrine does not answer the question raised by scripture Your response – evade – avoid – and attack the messenger
D: "Why do you deny the soul? R: I do not deny the soul. Man has no spirit – we are only animals with memories There is no such thing as spirit within man - it is just the HS puppet master within us Our spirit / soul does not go to heaven according to you – the HS just takes our memories
A discussion with you would be simpler if you would stick to one theology
Ps 51: Does it talk about getting a brand new world of spirit, or simply changing the spirit you already have, making changes to your old character and getting a character that is similar to GOD's character?
How can it change the spirit you already have if man has no spirit The HOLY SPIRIT witness to our spirit – remember This is proof positive that there is only one ruwach and it is God’s – man has no ruwach of his own – to think that is a sin – you cannot own your spirit
Evidently – you have no clue what you believe
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2020 23:47:57 GMT -5
Help me through your theory:
When the spirit trapped in the matter of ra called a body, does yester ra, where does the yester ra come from? the spirit or the body of ra? Yester ra = self = self-preservation = instinct – comes from the DNA programming of body (flesh- biology)
If you say the spirit, than the spirit becomes the author of thoughts and hence doing ra. The spirit is not the author of thoughts The Mind is the home of intellect – the mind is a function of the brain – and the brain = biology
If you say the body, the body is merely the machinery for the spirit? The body is the machinery for the Mind- intellect – a function of the Mind / brain / biology The mind is not your soul
I can damage my brain – and it damages my mind – Alzheimer’s! Brain cancer – brain tumors – stroke – all affect thought – the ability to think – and function Drink enough fluoride and you will become docile and retarded
All of this is biology = brain = intellect = thought = memory None of this has anything to do with that divine spark within us
If you want you only speak in terms of conative consciousness Then I would say – awake consciousness – your thoughts – are just your mind Unconscious – or subconscious = the soul that knows better
It is there – but so many people are just not in touch with it People spend so much time suppressing it that we stop listening to it
Why does Jesus say,
Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Does this mean the body is responsible for yester ra, or is the mind responsible, the spirit is the seat of the mind is it not? The spirit is not the seat of the mind Both Mind and Body are biological and therefore flesh Self-preservation says – kill to eat and survive – the mind understands how to do this Self-preservation says REPRODUCE for the survival of the species – the mind understands how to do this Both of these functions = yester ra – SELF – and possibly ra to another creature Neither of these functions has anything to do with Seeking the Kingdom of God
A tiger’s mind is very cunning as it hunts its pray – as it patiently awaits to commit premeditated murder of an innocent
This capacity to think – intellect = biology This capacity all goes back to the dust All my training as a laboratorian means nothing in heaven And – if I was a complete mental retard – that will be left in the dust as well What returns to God is my soul as spirit – the essence of me – the real me
I read this verse as your choose to follow Jesus with perfection, but our body is trapped in propensities, fails to live up to your choices to be with GOD.
You are in a burning plane You are first to the door Yester tov says – stand there in the flames and help the others Yester ra says – get out of the way - ME FIRST!
If I was on a desert island filled with head hunters with my family If only one of us had to die – I would stand up – because I love them If I was there with a bunch of strange men –I am less willing Jesus – stood up for undeserving strangers that were not even born yet
When I came into this world I knew better – my yester tov was greater than my yester ra But as I matured – SELF emerges as the dominate voice within me – yester ra – I want – ME = SELF Toddlers are famous for their “terrible twos” = me = me – me All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God
Soul – my spirit within me – knows this No one has to tell me I am a sinner – I am an animal – I admit this
A “BELIEVER” takes his confession to the Lord in prayer God – I did this – and I did that Please forgive me for this and that “JUST PRAYERS”
A GNOSIS SPIRITUAL CHRISTIAN – praises the Lord for Christ God already know all I have done – why I did it – what I was thinking when I did it The prayer is not – “Please forgive me” – The prayer is praise your Lord for your forgiveness provided through Christ
I grew up with the Prayer of Jabez – enlarge me oh Lord Richard teaches – do ask for specifics – as in - do not pray for a new car If it is not God’s Will you are never getting it and then you can think God’s doesn’t answer prayers Do not pray that 96 yr old Betty recovers – but pray God’s Will for her But this is different that asking for help – or strength Help me to focus on my homework – help me be disciplined – and help me understand – help me to be a good student
I grew up with the Prayer of Jabez – enlarge me oh Lord But then I had a glimpse of the finances of a 501C3 Ministry for the Lord It cost me a greedy friendship – and my ministry is not 5000 people But how much fruit do you have to bear to bear fruit?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 5:51:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I am a little confused by what you mean as "spirit". You say it is a "divine spark" God gives us. Can GOD really give us something divine as ours to keep within our bodies?
D What returns to God is my soul as spirit – the essence of me – the real me
R How is this any different to my view of "spirit" being "your character", that defines you.
R How can something divine, be me, when I am also made from something of matter?
R It's clear you're not referring to "character" like I do with "my spirit".
R Can this "spirit" talk outside of the body, upon mortal death?
Some questions to help me understand you Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 4, 2020 8:57:20 GMT -5
I am a little confused by what you mean as "spirit". You say it is a "divine spark" God gives us. Can GOD really give us something divine as ours to keep within our bodies?
You doubt that God is a creative power My God can say – let there be 16897789456 celestial bodies in 45887661198269 galaxies in 7 complete dimensions of space = 7 complete heavens – universes My God can say – let there be light – and it is My God can say – let there be a cow – and it is AND – my God can say let there be angels – and they are AND – my God can say let there be man – and there he is
You doubt that God can create You ask - Can GOD really create something like that – you doubt it Your god is less than my God – my God is omnipotent
D What returns to God is my soul as spirit – the essence of me – the real me R How is this any different to my view of "spirit" being "your character", that defines you. Character can be altered by physical trauma – mental abuse – drugs Character defines the mind – the way your animal thinks – character is intellect Your mind is biology – your soul is not – it is invisible / unmeasurable spirit
R How can something divine, be me, when I am also made from something of matter? Because God breathed into you the breath of life and man became a human beings – special – different that all the other creatures – we are the creature that can choose
R It's clear you're not referring to "character" like I do with "my spirit". YES! – because I can deliberately alter your character I can make you aggressive – I can make you defensive – I can make your cry – I can make you feel guilty – I can make you feel pleasure – but I cannot alter your soul / spirit
R Can this "spirit" talk outside of the body, upon mortal death? How childish – the answer is – it is capable of communion And we know that it will judge the angels and sing praises to the Lord Is this verbal like people do on earth – make up your own answer
We know that Enoch and Paul carried on conversations in heaven We are told that the angels instructed Enoch Was this in English - or Hebrew - or maybe Swalheili - scripture does not specify
At Pentecaust - every man heard it in his own tongue - maybe more than 250 dialects from all over the world
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 16:16:22 GMT -5
Maybe you're right, the HS only takes "memories" back when we die to GOD. These "memories" are the ways we used the "spirit" of GOD in our life, so cannot be changed or altered, it is eternal because we did it ourselves. Let me explain
Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee,
This is a prayer promise I usually sow in prayer every night, for GOD to wake me at whatever time I specify. It's my daily evidence that GOD is with me.
When I support GOD by saying His words of promised power (Jer 33:3) this power flow is termed "spirit" and is a "memory" of when and how I used GOD in my life. Such memories of me using GOD's power is taken back to GOD after my soul dies upon the first death of sleep.
This "spirit" is not character as you say, but these memories of spirit are eternal and demonstrate how and when I used GOD in my life.
Thank you for helping me clarify my thoughts on this aspect.
However you add something, I do not understand:
R Can this "spirit" talk outside of the body, upon mortal death? D How childish – the answer is – it is capable of communion
You are introducing a very different idea to mine... very different...
So our spirit can talk outside of our body? Can our spirit also live without our body?
Why than does our spirit require a body of ra than? You would say because it allows our spirit which only normally speaks tov, to be subjugated to both tov and ra influences, thus develop choice.
Why does our spirit require such development if it is already in love with God doing tov affects?
You might say the prodigal son did not develop free choice until he chose to do ra. Did the ra experience help the prodigal son love GOD more? Than what you say of the son who never needed to develop his free will of choice, stayed in tov all the time?
Our spirit is not of matter is it?
Our spirit is eternal like GOD is?
Our spirit is made of the same divinity GOD is? wow? is this even possible?
Does this mean GOD only ever does tov? Our spirit only ever does tov? so why the need to develop free will choice by placing spirit in matter inherently with ra? We are already by our spirit, like GOD already?
God communes and does not require matter for Himself.
Why can't our spirit commune without matter also?
If it is so easy for GOD to create spirits like Himself, why do your have three expressions that are the same as the Father? Why not have three personalities? How can Jews call this polytheism, when there are three spirits, all the same ?
One more question:
Your theory violates the concept of GOD. the Great uncaused cause.
You cannot have GOD create elohiym powers, such as spirit entities, because the Uncaused Cause is not longer uncaused. Than I would ask where did GOD come from?
The Great uncaused cause, cannot create entities of itself, otherwise it is no longer eternal and uncaused. And for me unlike Razors theorem to make the uncaused cause as one, I suggest the uncaused cause was immediately eternally existed as three. You require three eternal powers to make love work.
You have challenged this saying you require only one. A provider of love only needs matter to respond.
No.
That would make the provider lonely. It's not relational. Not a relationship either.
Violates everything. Like saying I love my guitar, and my guitar is all I need. I need no helpmate like me, I have my guitar.
No.
The great uncaused cause immediately instantaneously from eternity was three personalities of love.
The provider of love needs a responder of love, that is spirit, not of matter.
Hebrews NT has a text for this idea remember?
Now GOD is not lonely, and shares loves within an elohiym community. How many communities of elohiym are there? One.
Not as you imply, heaps. Making mankind with spirit sparks, we can identify as our own.
The breath of life, is just that, elohiym breathing all the time upon matter so we live under His partnership. Simple really.
Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than elohiym, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Hebrew does not say Man is made of elohiym sparks, a little lower than elohiym, totally different in origin.
Man is of matter, elohiym is not of matter. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 4, 2020 19:19:05 GMT -5
R Can this "spirit" talk outside of the body, upon mortal death? D How childish – the answer is – it is capable of communion So our spirit can talk outside of our body? Can our spirit also live without our body? Again – you talk as if we were toddlers in a Sunday School class
You deny spirit – therefore you make up rediculas examples to prove your own ingnorance OK – you answer me – if you lose a leg here in this life – will you have two legs in heaven If you lose your eyesight in this life – will you be able to see in heaven Again – you talk as if we were toddlers in a Sunday School class
Our spirit is not of matter is it? DUH – it is not of matter – it is of spirit Our spirit is eternal like GOD is? Our spirit was created eternal – but we choose to give it up for worldly desire
Our spirit is made of the same divinity GOD is? wow? is this even possible? Question - Who said this? Answer – Robert said this – and now you will go on at length why your idea is wrong
Question – can we return to what I said – instead of your misrepresentation of what I said God creates a cow – is the cow divine? God creates a slug – is that slug divine But – if I say God created man – suddenly man has to be divine
I already know you consider your satan god a divinity I do not
Your theory violates the concept of GOD. the Great uncaused cause. And where do I say that God is not the one true Creator
You cannot have GOD create spirit entities God cannot create angels or man or even archon – but you say you do not diminish God
Violates everything. Like saying I love my guitar, and my guitar is all I need YES! – the angels were not satisfactory – no choice = no risk So God created man – gave him the Free Will choice to choose God or not
The provider of love needs a responder of love, that is spirit, not of matter. So God created man – gave him the Free Will choice to choose God or not
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 14:11:44 GMT -5
D: "OK – you answer me – if you lose a leg here in this life – will you have two legs in heaven If you lose your eyesight in this life – will you be able to see in heaven
Of course, the DNA is not removed from your leg, contains information to restore your leg, same with eye. In case of mutation in DNA for eyesight, lost DNA code, doesn't scripture say Jesus DNA in humanity is exchanged for our corrupt DNA, life for life, DNA for DNA, isn't this change meaning everything is perfect as it was before?
R: "Our spirit is made of the same divinity GOD is? wow? is this even possible?
D: "Question - Who said this? Answer – Robert said this – and now you will go on at length why your idea is wrong
Question – can we return to what I said – instead of your misrepresentation of what I said God creates a cow – is the cow divine? God creates a slug – is that slug divine But – if I say God created man – suddenly man has to be divine
I already know you consider your satan god a divinity I do not
Rob replies: Sadly Dave you do not answer my question. Something created using matter is not by definition divine, as spirit is divine.
A cow is not divine, a slug is not divine, a man is not divine either.
By the way animals also receive the "breath of life", not just mankind. Look at the Hebrew.
Dave thinks: "I already know you consider your satan god a divinity
Rob is surprised? You do? Actually angels were created of matter, hence are not divine either. The one angel who chose to sin, and thus by sinning made other angels also sin, is NOT divine either. Only GOD is divine, the Great Uncaused Cause has to be the only unique Entity there is.
R: "You cannot have GOD create spirit entities D: "God cannot create angels or man or even archon – but you say you do not diminish God
R : You're not answering my question. Angels are creatures made of matter. Man is a creature made of matter.
God cannot create another entity like GOD, GOD only creates entities made of matter.
R: "The provider of love needs a responder of love, that is spirit, not of matter. D: "So God created man – gave him the Free Will choice to choose God or not
Rob: "Again you did not answer my big question, really big. God is not lonely. Love requires other entities of the same entity. Divinity is a community of divinity. Love is relational.
Adam saw the kinds of matter as two personalities of loving, this help mate idea, make him feel lonely. You deny this fundamental principal of GOD.
Shalom
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