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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2020 18:02:57 GMT -5
R You see only one burning being upon the pole, but there are two placed there. D I don’t ? R please explain. Do you see two burning beings on the pole? The provider of lies, AND the provider of salvation. Two Beings of Burning (saraph) I am not comfortable with calling Jesus Christ just and burring angel Jesus Christ was God incarnate
You are the first person to present me with the idea of two burning angels on a pole OK – there are two poles – one ahl and one agl The ahl pole = placing the evil spirits (image therof) up on a pole for all to see Expose them for who they are – gnosis The agl lifts Christ upon the Cross Expose Jesus Christ for who He is – The Son of God / God incarnate – Immanuel
Expose them for who they are – gnosis - make them obviouse to all Not in a metaphor – not a mystery – just put them up in plain sight for all to see
These two Beings oppose each other, One is the father of sin, the other a rescuer from sin. Really – Gen 3:15 the Contest is between Eve and satan and Eve’s seed and satan’s seed The Contest is between man and archon / man and nature / spirit and world
Job 2:3 ... although thou movedst me against him, to destroy Job without cause. So explain this verse Dave
Spurgeon comments: The glory of Job's character was his sincerity and uprightness, and this like an impregnable fortress defied the attacks of hell, though the prince of darkness himself personally assailed him, with permission from God to take from him all that he possessed.
The glory of Job's character was his sincerity and uprightness, and this like an impregnable fortress defied the attacks of hell YES! Nothing satan did could cause Job to curse God
though the prince of darkness himself personally assailed him YES! – per God’s instruction Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” Job 2:7 So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai, and afflicted Job …
with permission from God YES! God’s idea – God’s test of Job – God’s Will – God’s Plan
to take from (Job) all that he possessed. YES! – earthly wealth and health But not his spirit – not his life – just worldly stuff
Job 2:3 (TLV)… . And he (Job) still holds firmly to his integrity,(his gnosis of the Lord) though you (God) incited Me (satan) against him to ruin him without any reason.” 1- God’s idea – God’s plan – God’s Will 2- told satan to do it – do it for God - because God test no man (James) directly 3- even satan didn’t understand God’s Plan – ‘without reason?’ Correction – God know the reason - God knows His own mind – we do not – and satan did not “Majestic Authority!”
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 14:16:30 GMT -5
D I am not comfortable with calling Jesus Christ just and burring angel Jesus Christ was God incarnate
You are the first person to present me with the idea of two burning angels on a pole R First it doesn't say cherub, it says saraph, meaning "burning beings", this is a functional descriptor, NOT a term for a Being, Jesus is of the eternal elohiym, GOD is never written as a Being in Hebrew, but simply as He who exists. The angel is written as cherub, this is a creature termed cherub. Saraph is a functional descriptor meaning "burning beings", why are they burning? Because LOVE is a burning flow of energy, passion, emotion. R These two Beings oppose each other, One is the father of sin, the other a rescuer from sin.
D Really – Gen 3:15 the Contest is between Eve and satan and Eve’s seed and satan’s seed The Contest is between man and archon / man and nature / spirit and world
R so are you agreeing with me or not? These two Beings oppose each other, One is the father of sin, the other a rescuer from sin.
D Job 2:3 (TLV)… . And he (Job) still holds firmly to his integrity,(his gnosis of the Lord) though you (God) incited Me (satan) against him to ruin him without any reason.” 1- God’s idea – God’s plan – God’s Will
R I get that GOD told Satan, you moved me to destroy Job. SO God killed Job's children , but only because Satan challenged GOD to do so.
Now whether this Hebrew writes it this way, saying God did wounding on purpose, or that the Satan is the real authority of this wounding, is debatable.
The Scape goat idea tells us that straight people who sinned, have their sins transferred unto a sin bearer, Jesus who atones the sins. But than the sins are transferred unto the scape goat, the father of sins. He carries the sins until He dies.
So I see GOD did not wound Job's children, Satan did. He must wear the final sinning accounts, hence why He opposes man in court meetings, so His final demise is avoided.
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 14:38:23 GMT -5
D Job 2:3 (TLV)… . And he (Job) still holds firmly to his integrity,(his gnosis of the Lord) though you (God) incited Me (satan) against him to ruin him without any reason.”
R Have you written this right?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan,.. thou (Satan) movedst me (God) against him (Job), to destroy him (Job) without cause?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 8, 2020 16:20:49 GMT -5
D Job 2:3 (TLV)… . And he (Job) still holds firmly to his integrity,(his gnosis of the Lord) though you (God) incited Me (satan) against him to ruin him without any reason.” 1- God’s idea – God’s plan – God’s WillBusted you are correct I was trying to answer quickly - to save time on my end - sorry Maybe my answer is still correct 1- God’s idea – God’s plan – God’s Will Because satan was doing his function well - just as his job description demands
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2020 4:48:06 GMT -5
No worries Dave Enjoy your evening Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 4:48:20 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Happy Sabbath, bit rainy here, all alone with dogs, geese and chooks, Wife at our second home.
I usually prefer to discuss with you using Moses OT torah writings. However it has come to my notice the NT Tanak has quite a lot to say about angels that sin from the beginning. I am surprised since you read the NT as well as me, that you are not persuaded by their verses. You cannot claim the NT was a Roman Edit, since John wrote his material around 70AD, long before Rome appeared on the scene.
1 John 3:8 says some amazing things.
It explains Jude 1.
And makes the Ezekiel no longer a metaphor you can ignore anymore.
All three verses say the same thing. Angels were once perfect, and some chose to do sinning from their beginning, thus left their estate. God reacted by allowing their sinning to be observed, and finally banished them to earth in darkness.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; 1Jo 3:8 The devil sinneth from the beginning. 1Jo 3:8 The Son of God was manifested, to destroy the works of the devil.
All three aspects of John you completely ignore.
The Dragon Angel is the father of sin. The Dragon Angel was sinning from the beginning. Jesus was commissioned to destroy the works of Dragon Angel Satan.
The Greek word use the correct Hebrew words, for sin, for beginning and for devil.
I cannot see how you push your Chief Archon idea as an angel who doesn't sin, when it clearly says the Chief Archon was sinning from the beginning.
Shalom my friend.
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Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2020 12:08:06 GMT -5
1 John 3:8 says some amazing things. It explains Jude 1. And makes the Ezekiel no longer a metaphor you can ignore anymore. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; 1Jo 3:8 The devil sinneth from the beginning. The Dragon Angel is the father of sin. The Dragon Angel was sinning from the beginning. Correct – the Chief Archon’s first thought was only of self 1Jo 3:8 The Son of God was manifested, to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus was commissioned to destroy the works of Dragon Angel Satan. Christ is the Pardon from life as an animal to spiritual maturity - AgreeThe Greek word use the correct Hebrew words, for sin, for beginning and for devil. AgreeI cannot see how you push your Chief Archon idea as an angel who doesn't sin, when it clearly says the Chief Archon was sinning from the beginning. Agreed – when all the other angels were created – they gave praise When the archon were created they – made a triumphant sound – a war cry = ME! (Job 38:7) From the very first the Chief archon only thought of himself – thought he was the first Does this ‘miss’ / chata = sure There is no disagreementThen you support it withEze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you. You double speak – and cannot see your own error These two passages cannot be of the same being!Either this entity was error from the beginning Or he was perfect from the beginning And when I point out this conflicting theology to you You say – you do not care to knowTherefore – I accuse you of being blinded by religion Which theology do you holdsatan was perfect and beloved from the beginning - then changed or the Dragon was sin from the beginning
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 14:51:31 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Your being difficult
But at least you agree
D Which theology do you hold 1: satan was perfect and beloved from the beginning - then changed or 2: the Dragon was sinning from the beginning
Why do you even consider this ?
You NOW admit the archons were sinning , chata. You cannot agree with this idea, because this means angels sin.
You cannot agree with this idea because you have archon created intentionally to do RA, but you get around this by saying it's not sinning, it's doing what angels are programmed to do. NOW you agree the archons are sinning.
This changes your view way too much, to my side.
If angels sin, than they fall into the same judgement as humans who sin. Funny that's what John and Jude say.
The only word that defines free will clearly is the verb "missing" or "chata".
If you do "missing" you're walking away from GOD.
D 2: the Dragon was sinning from the beginning
R Now you entertain the idea that GOD makes creatures as robotic programs.
If GOD is LOVE, that means GOD is relational. In fact everything is relational in the physical world, the chemical world and the spiritual world. Nothing exists on it's own.
Its fun how some find music in the stars, even music in the DNA or fabric structure of life, all things are designed relationally. In other words, all things respond to the provider.
There is no such thing as a robotic program, that is not how the Divine Relational Creator creates. The Divine Provider also allows creation to Respond. This is what love is, a provider touching a responder. And to make love even more complex, there is also a collector of love. The electrical capacitor is a collector of God's love.
I stand in awe of the wonderful magnificence of GOD, as the Divine Provider, Responder and Collector of LOVE.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
True Science is the revelation of GOD in His Creation.
Alex the grey African parrot, demonstrated to the world of science that animals are not dumb robotic programs of natural instinct.
Alex had the intellect of a normal 5 years old child, with the additional ability to love and respond to love. In other words Alex was just like humans in every way, except Alex could not choose Salvation, the Divine Person.
But even this question is questioned by Solomon:
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (KJV)
The pineal gland was switched off to most of us after sin. Some say this gland enables us to communicate to animals and even plants, who also have intellect.
As a gardener I notice when you condition plants so much shape to grow into, they respond and slow into that shape.
Ge 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
What was this work in a perfect TOV universe? I imagine Adam could speak to the vines, grow here, but not here, and the plant would speak back and do as requested. One day I can speak to the trees, grow more over here, but less here. And even ask the tree to grow no more larger, and it will obey my voice. It will be fun to talk to animals freely, even ask them how they love and how they respond to GOD's love flowing through them.
The ordinary dog in our now fallen TOV/RA world shows us surrender every day when he allows us to pat him, yet we stiff necks bristle when GOD wants to pat us on the head. Our love experience is so limited by RA, the consequences of SIN.
Adam and Eve never walked in Eden as we see walking, they were transported by the Holy Spirit, in some chariot device, as "friction" is a natural RA thing, and did not exist in the perfect world of TOV.
Read about this marvellous transportation in Ezekiel. Even GOD rides upon the winds, again always relational.
When Adam and Eve sinned the Holy Spirit shrank around them exposing all kinds of missing, immediately all kinds of functions were switched off. They saw themselves as naked rather than clothed by the solid colours of the Holy Spirit. They were missing much of the powers from GOD. Not God's fault. Sin did this. The humans chose to reject love.
Now Alex can wilfully choose to be bad, make fun and even get bored with dumb science routines testing his intelligence. That is free will in operation, except the animals cannot choose GOD as their Saviour. Only mankind was made closer in the image of elohiym power.
But you say some angels are merely robotic programs.
If plants can scream to other plants that a wood cutter is wounding one of their friends of the forest, surely plants can communicate.
How much more is an angel above a mere tree in the forest?
If Alex the parrot can communicate love freely, be naughty and nice, how much more can angels choose to love and respond to love also?
You limit GOD, you limit His love and His loving.
Everything in Creation speaks of GOD and for His glory, its relational not some dead program. I remember a song, God's not dead, He's alive.
A creature of robotic programming is dead, boring and stupid idea of love.
Do you really think the birds praise GOD every morning from robotic programming we term instinct, or they freely choose to do so because they respond to His love?
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
What's this doing in the middle of hell and earth, the straight and the wicked? Just weird poetry symbols that make no sense? Can trees rejoice?
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
A poetry simile, humans are like trees. But are trees like humans?
Isa 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Can trees rejoice in singing, or was GOD stretching the simile too far?
It is for me Dave an obvious choice:
D satan was perfect and beloved from the beginning - then changed
R Yes, that is how GOD is, all creatures are perfect from the beginning. Sadly one angel closest to GOD decided to change.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2020 16:13:58 GMT -5
D Which theology do you hold 1: satan was perfect and beloved from the beginning - then changed or 2: the Dragon was sinning from the beginning
Why do you even consider this ? Because you present two different theologies and mix them together when ever convenient
You NOW admit the archons were sinning , chata. You cannot agree with this idea, because this means angels sin. I will quote it to you once again
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library "Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
The very first thought of the First Archon = self Of course this misses God I have never said anything other You say this is a free will choice – and the verse does not support your theology The First Archon was made that way – and was made that way for a purpose
You cannot agree with this idea because you have archon created intentionally to do RA, but you get around this by saying it's not sinning, it's doing what angels are programmed to do. NOW you agree the archons are sinning.
If you are doing what God has planned for you to do – you are not sinning It cannot be a sin to obey God
This changes your view way too much, to my side. Not even close – NO FREE WILL CHOICE HERE – the archon were made for a specific purpose
D 2: the Dragon was sinning from the beginning This is exactly what Jesus says in the agl From the beginning the dragon was nothing more than a dragon
R Now you entertain the idea that GOD makes creatures as robotic programs. Ants do what they do – are they robots Cockroaches do what they do – are they robots Baboons do what they do – are they robots
If GOD is LOVE, I stand in awe of the wonderful magnificence of GOD, as the Divine Provider, Responder and Collector of LOVE. Plase answer why and how God kills so many people Does He Love them to death?
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: True Science is the revelation of GOD in His Creation. Agree – this is a big part of my ministry
But even this question is questioned by Solomon: Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (KJV) How can your spirit go upward – if you have no spirit You argue these are only memories on their way to a record book
But you say some angels are merely robotic programs. NO – I say good angels have a good nature And bad-angleic beings do not Are ants robots – dogs – cats – birds – they all behave differently
D satan was perfect and beloved from the beginning - then changed R Yes, that is how GOD is, all creatures are perfect from the beginning. Sadly one angel closest to GOD decided to change.
So which theology do you hold true The dragon was in error from his creation Or satan was a perfect and beautiful then had the power to change his own substance and alter all God’s tov Which is it Robert Satan was perfect then changed - Or the dragon was in error from the beginning
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 4:40:11 GMT -5
Dave uses the Gnostic writings as if only they are inspired:-
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted foetus. And it assumed a plastic form moulded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
1 The Moses writings and prophets who are in harmony with Moses, do not have any account of the HS also known as Faith. (Maybe I am mistaken?)
2 There is no verse anywhere in the Moses torah or prophets, of the HS creating anything on her own.
3 There is no evidence anywhere of GOD or the HS creating RA beings, intentionally RA like. "like an aborted fetus"
Creation is described as "very good", nothing like an aborted foetus.
4 There is no evidence of Creation having animals before Adam sinned of being an arrogant beast in attitude.
5 There is no evidence in the Tanak of any creature sinning immediately upon being created by GOD.
Dave you are deceived, because you base your theology too much upon Gnostic writings, which do not agree with the Moses torah or the prophetic torah teachings.
D The First Archon was made that way – and was made that way for a purpose R you say these special angels were intentionally created sinning angels for a purpose, for the will of GOD
Ezekiel 28, Jude 1 and 1John 3:8 all disagree with you. God does not create creatures intentionally sinning for some special purpose. Jude parallels angels who do sinning as man who does sinning, both face judgement like Sodom did.
D Not even close – NO FREE WILL CHOICE HERE – the archon were made for a specific purpose
R Oh, so GOD creating some special angels with sinning, does not mean they are sinning as man chooses sinning, the meaning of sinning is different?
One creature goes to hell for sinning, but a different creature it's OK to do sinning, since it's obeying GOD.
Boy do you have Moses torah teachings for these ideas ? no
Jude parallels the sinning of angels and man as the same fate like Sodom.
You have Gnostic writings replacing and contradicting Moses torah.
D Ants do what they do – are they robots Cockroaches do what they do – are they robots Baboons do what they do – are they robots R I see.
Tell me, was Alex the grey African parrot, a robot too?
D Please answer why and how God kills so many people Does He Love them to death?
R Some preachers say Salvation makes us fireproof, when the Sun shines seven fold, and love is a burning fire.
The wicked are not fire proof and are consumed by God's love. So you're right in a way, God's loves them to non-existence.
Everyone is born is on probation from GOD, BUT GOD is forced to shine through a medium, so RA exists. Does GOD want His relationships for ever in this way? no
God wants to shine over you directly, without mediums present, hence you get the full seven fold power of love as a burning passion. The wicked can't stand this love for long and are burned, but the straight ones are fire=proof.
D So which theology do you hold true
R God created all angels as a family kind. They all had functional purposes. These creatures were the closest creatures to GOD 's glory, made in His image, able to love GOD and respond to His love. One angel was the chief commander, and given charge of the angels under him. He often came into GOD's throne room where the Divine Family talked together. This angel sat down nearest GOD on His throne. But sometimes only the Divine Family sat together during Creation of other worlds. They did not consult the angels for advice. This made the chief commander of angels jealous. And so over time, this one angel began to muse, slowly, first with pride, than arrogance, and finally sinned. He charged GOD as unfair, leaving the angels out of meetings, when all things should be shared. The angel was subtle, deceitful and lied, something GOD could not do. And so this angel influenced other angels to sin as well.
D Satan was perfect then changed -
R yes Happy Sabbath Dave.
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Post by Dave on Sept 12, 2020 10:54:19 GMT -5
1 The Moses writings and prophets who are in harmony with Moses, do not have any account of the HS also known as Faith. (Maybe I am mistaken?) God = Christ = HS = YWHY - there is only one God 2 There is no verse anywhere in the Moses torah or prophets, of the HS creating anything on her own. God = Christ = HS = YWHY - there is only one God 3 There is no evidence anywhere of GOD or the HS creating RA beings, intentionally RA like. "like an aborted fetus" Except Isiah 45:7 Creation is described as "very good", nothing like an aborted foetus. Except the choshek – the darkness – the abyss – the realm od the archon And it was tov 4 There is no evidence of Creation having animals before Adam sinned of being an arrogant beast in attitude. Except Job 40 5 There is no evidence in the Tanak of any creature sinning immediately upon being created by GOD. No – you are right – this would come from the word of the apostle John in the agl 1Jn 3:8 … for the devil sinneth from the beginning … Your verse
R Oh, so GOD creating some special angels with sinning, does not mean they are sinning as man chooses sinning, the meaning of sinning is different?
You proved it to yourself that God is not bound by the Torah law Your video – majestic Authority You have failed to prove to me that the Torah was written for the angel to follow Do they have diet restrictions – or marriage restriction – oh wait – they do not marry in heaven because they are nothing like us – But you insist they are just like us in every way including free will I will stick to scripture and leave you to your assumptions
One creature goes to hell for sinning, but a different creature it's OK to do sinning, since it's obeying GOD. Man is a sinner – do all men go to hell (wrong use of the word entirely)
D So which theology do you hold true R God created all angels as a family kind. They all had functional purposes. These creatures were the closest creatures to GOD 's glory, made in His image, able to love GOD and respond to His love. One angel was the chief commander, and given charge of the angels under him. He often came into GOD's throne room where the Divine Family talked together. This angel sat down nearest GOD on His throne. But sometimes only the Divine Family sat together during Creation of other worlds. They did not consult the angels for advice. This made the chief commander of angels jealous. And so over time, this one angel began to muse, slowly, first with pride, than arrogance, and finally sinned. He charged GOD as unfair, leaving the angels out of meetings, when all things should be shared. The angel was subtle, deceitful and lied, something GOD could not do. And so this angel influenced other angels to sin as well.
D Satan was perfect then changed - R yes And what of all the verse you offer suggesting that the dragon or devil was a sinner from the very beginning
How convenient just ignore those verse now Then conveniently turn around and employ them when arguing the reverse
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 15:33:08 GMT -5
R No account of the HS also known as Faith D God = Christ = HS = YWHY - there is only one God
R are you getting tired of me? That's not answering the question.
R There is no evidence anywhere "like an aborted fetus" D Except Isiah 45:7 R Oh, so now GOD creates sin now? as well as does sin?
R There is no evidence of an arrogant beast in attitude. D Except Job 40 R Where specifically? verse 12, verse 15? no indication of any creature created arrogant
R There is no evidence of any creature sinning immediately upon being created by GOD. D 1Jn 3:8 … for the devil sinneth from the beginning …Your verse
R Oh so "arche" "beginning" now equates to "immediately upon creation" ? That assumption would violate the "very good" declaration of GOD upon His creative acts?
I didn't know Hebrew had detailed words relating to absolute time events?
D You have failed to prove to me that the Torah was written for the angel to follow Do they have diet restrictions – or marriage restriction – oh wait – they do not marry in heaven because they are nothing like us – But you insist they are just like us in every way including free will I will stick to scripture and leave you to your assumptions R Does royal-torah and torah alone, therefore suggest two torah teachings? You lump all torah into one bundle?
James says the royal-torah is the Ten Commandments, these are special, supreme, on there own.
The other torah teachings were specifically designed for mankind, not angels as you claim.
Since Jude says angels have sinned (John 3:8 adds this word) and they are judged with same fate as humans, as Sodom was, we can conclude they are judged by the "royal-torah".
Why this law? Because sin is defined as transgression of the "royal-torah", not all the torah teachings GOD gave also to man. Now I have proed angels are required to follow the "royal -torah", because when they sin, theyare accoutable to the law, that defines sin.
Diet restrictions is not in the royal-torah, neither are marriage restrictions.
R One creature goes to hell for sinning, but a different creature it's OK to do sinning, since it's obeying GOD. D Man is a sinner – do all men go to hell (wrong use of the word entirely) R are you getting tired of me? Are my discusssions too strong for you? Why is it that two different creatures are written as having sinned, but only man is judged, but the angels who also sin are not judged?
Actually Jude says the angels that sin are judged. So yes angels that sin also go to hell.
These sinning angels will end up like Sodom did, these sinning angels will cease to exist. Stop playing around with the questions, you have a problem, you're not following Scripture at all. No mention of sinning angels obeying GOD by Jude or John or Ezekiel, so "Housten we have a problem" your not following Scripture very well.
D And what of all the verse you offer suggesting that the dragon or devil was a sinner from the very beginning R Oh so GOD created the chief sinning angel intentionally sinning immediately upon his creation? because the Hebrew word "beginning" means "immediately in time". is that it? your coping statement?
Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. SO Beginning means GOD created creation at time zero? God is not dictated by time. Time doesn't exist anyhow.
No such thing as time, only the forward movement of earth relative to GOD, ie: a progression of memories.
Ex 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land...
Again beginnngs of the land does not mean collect all the fruits from time zero. Nu 15:20 Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering:
again making bread and select a portion from the beginnings of making it, DOES NOT refer to ABSOLUTE TIME. It refers to relative time, when you make dough in time.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
God reads man future or past, but does beginning here refer to absolute time or relative time?
Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
So the disciples were supporters from the time of their birth, or from the time the HS came over them?
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Verse 2 suggest angels received justice for their doings, now the angels minister unto humans, we cannot neglect salvation which we had from the beginning.
Dave some help please:
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>.
In Hebrew would this be?
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin "chataah" is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth "chata" from <apo> the beginning <arche>.
"Humans that do sin-offerings are of the Devil, for the Devil was sinning from the beginning."
Why are there differences in chataah and chata?
I get the impressionn the Devil began sinning from the time He began sinning, the word is relative, not meaning he began sinning upon His being created, as you imply.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
This says what I say, that Satan was once perfect but began sinning, now from the beginning sin came into the universe, this word describes when He began he became a sinner.
D Then conveniently turn around and employ them when arguing the reverse
R I can't do as you say Dave because it conflicts the studies of "arche" and the verse:
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
You see Scripture does answer all the problems, if you read Scripture in it's entirety. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 12, 2020 20:58:12 GMT -5
R No account of the HS also known as Faith D God = Christ = HS = YWHY - there is only one God R are you getting tired of me? That's not answering the question. It is tiring always arguing in circles – Question – who is the creator – God or Christ? What is the difference between God and the HS – NOTHING except locality This is a foundation belief if the Jewish Kabbalah and most Christians except you Instead you choose to worship three or four gods or more
R There is no evidence anywhere "like an aborted fetus" D Except Isiah 45:7 R Oh, so now GOD creates sin now? as well as does sin? If you deny scripture – then you can make up any theology you want There is only one Creator Not your pantheon of multiple gods – some good and some bad
R There is no evidence of any creature sinning immediately upon being created by GOD. D 1Jn 3:8 … for the devil sinneth from the beginning …Your verse
R One creature goes to hell for sinning, but a different creature it's OK to do sinning, since it's obeying GOD. D Man is a sinner – do all men go to hell (wrong use of the word entirely) R are you getting tired of me? Are my discusssions too strong for you? Bring it on – you might think your argument strong – I just find them futile and desperate You have an art for denying scripture You deny God as absolute – you diminish God and give satan credit for the way thing are Actually – you blaspheme
D And what of all the verse you offer suggesting that the dragon or devil was a sinner from the very beginning R Oh so GOD created the chief sinning angel intentionally sinning immediately upon his creation? because the Hebrew word "beginning" means "immediately in time". is that it? your coping statement? Coping statement Insult me if it helps – I have translating Greek since 1972 – please do not instruct me from your limited ability to translate
Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. SO Beginning means GOD created creation at time zero? God is not dictated by time. Time doesn't exist anyhow. How easy for you to change perspectives – Tell me how time does not exist from man’s perspective
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. God reads man future or past, but does beginning here refer to absolute time or relative time? Jesus knew from his beginning – the beginning – as in predestination Another topic you refuse to address Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Ok – correct – they were bBorn Again – another beginning point - correct
So the disciples were supporters from the time of their birth, or from the time the HS came over them? Actually – God appointed them before they were ever born
In Hebrew would this be? 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin "chataah" is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth "chata" from <apo> the beginning <arche>.
1Jn 3:8 (TLV) The one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Ben-Elohim appeared for this purpose—to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:8 (OJB) The one practicing averos is of Hasatan, because from the beginning Hasatan sins. For this tachlis was made hisgalus of the Ben HaElohim, that he might destroy the pe’ulot Hasatan.
1Jn 3:8 ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐκ τοῦ διαβόλου ἐστίν, ὅτι ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει. εἰς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα λύσῃ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ διαβόλου.
αμαρτιαν G266 - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence Noun, Accusative (direct object), Singular, Feminine
αμαρτανει G264 - Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass. Verb, Present, Active, Indicative, Person: third [he/she/it], Singular
"Humans that do sin-offerings are of the Devil, for the Devil was sinning from the beginning." Why are there differences in chataah and chata? Because of grammar Those who sin (noun – no indication of duration – once or many times) are (OF) the devil And (with emphasis) the devil IS A CONTINIOUS SINNER (present, active, indicative)
Next comes - , ὅτι ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς If the text just said archie – one could argue what this beginning meant But ‘apo’ – is also a indictor of first time – often translated as before – in front of A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before,
So this devil is a continuous sinner away from the beginning – after the beginning – at the beginning – because of the beginning – and BEFORE the beginning
ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς = the first beginning – “The Beginning” as in Gen 1:1
I get the impressionn the Devil began sinning from the time He began sinning, the word is relative, not meaning he began sinning upon His being created, as you imply. If it just archie – maybe But it says apo archie
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Therefore this verse cannot be related to the devil – the dragon – or even the beast
This says what I say, that Satan was once perfect but began sinning, now from the beginning sin came into the universe, this word describes when He began he became a sinner. Only in your Catholic theology
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Adam – Eve – King of Tyre – King Cyrus – you and me
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 6:07:51 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Sorry if I offended you. Not my intention. I suppose we can view Scripture from different angles.
This "apo archie" thing,
Can I have a Hebrew word for this please?
The Greek was a translation of originally in Hebrew, so what is apo in Hebrew?
Some questions along your idea:
If some angels were sinning from creation, as soon as they are born, why use the terms "sin judgement, and make parallels to Sodom", as Jude and 1 JOhn 3:8 makes?
Scripture I feel makes parallels to angels (sin, judgement , etc) to humans. Comments?
How can you be children of the devil, if the Devil is not a party with you? Would this is unfair, if humans die for sinning, but angels who do sinning don't?
Just some questions arising from your theory?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 13, 2020 12:35:48 GMT -5
This "apo archie" thing, Can I have a Hebrew word for this please? The Greek was a translation of originally in Hebrew, so what is apo in Hebrew? The belief that the agl was origionally Hebrew is a belief – Zero evidence There is a lot of evidence to support that the agl was a actually Arabic
Regardless – without any evidence – you can make up any word you want What we have is Greek
Mat_19:4 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ὅτι ὁ ποιήσας ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς
Mat 19:4 (TLV) Haven’t you read?” He answered. “He who created them from the beginning ‘made them male and female’
Mat 19:4 (OJB) But Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said in reply, Have you not read that HaBoreh (The Creator, G-d) bereshis (in the beginning) created them zachar (male) and nekevah (female)
Mat_24:21 ἔσται γὰρ τότε θλῖψις μεγάλη, οἵα οὐ γέγονεν ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ νῦν οὐδ᾿ οὐ μὴ γένηται.
Mat 24:21 (TLV) For then there will be great trouble, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Mat 24:21 (OJB)For then will be Tzarah Gedolah (Great Tribulation) such as has not been from Reshit HaOlam (Beginning of the World) until now nor will it by any means happen again.
Mar_13:19 ἔσονται γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι θλῖψις, οἵα οὐ γέγονε τοιαύτη ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἧς ἔκτισεν ὁ Θεὸς ἕως τοῦ νῦν καὶ οὐ μὴ γένηται.
Mar 13:19 (TLV) “For in those days there will be trouble such as has never happened, not since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mar 13: 19 (OJB) For in those days will be Tzarah Gedolah (Great Tribulation) of such a kind as has not happened from [the] Reshit Yedei HaBriah (Beginning of the Days of Creation) which Hashem created until now, and never again will be.
Some questions along your idea: Scripture I feel makes parallels to angels (sin, judgement , etc) to humans. Comments? YES! Scripture say each and every being is judged – no exceptions Curious you miss this point Even the angels are judged – so how could man ever think of avoiding it – escaping it Once you realize this – you must stop to consider – Yom Kippur And realize Sukkot – twice – which leads to Purim followed by Passover three times And 50 days later – Pentecost – to be Born again
How can you be children of the devil, if the Devil is not a party with you? Scott Morrison – is your ruler Annastacia Palaszczuk – is your ruler Paul de Jersey, and Catherine Holmes – are your rulers
How much time do you spend in relationship with them?
Would this is unfair, if humans die for sinning, but angels who do sinning don't? Show me a passage that says God is fair – from man’s perspective God introduced Himself only to the 1% And it is their job to martyr for the Lord – what is fair to the 1% - or to the rest of the planet You avoid this question – you God of Love only introduces Himself to every one – why?
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