Jews, God, and Satan

[Dave]

D If eternal life is a gift then why doesn’t your theology end with the resurrection of the Body
R it does. We sleep until we are resurrected. Until then nothing happens to us.
D No proportional punishment just sleep because you are dead
R correct
D Then you are woken up at the end and judged - and put to sleep again if you deserve it. Where is proportional punishment?
R If you are straight with GOD before you sleep, you wake up to live with Him in heaven, the judgement concerning you is over, while you slept. You have a high priest in heaven fighting for your salvation.

If you are not straight with GOD before you sleep, God wakes you up after the straight ones are awaken. You get to see GOD and his salvation plan, than you also get to see all your sins. That you get your rewards of wickedness, when His love arms reach out to you... if your life was almost there with GOD but not in GOD, you die rather quickly, never to be again. If your very wicked like Satan is, the father of sinning, than you die last, and finally nothing ever remains or the wicked no more. Nothing.

Gnostic and most Christian's view

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

Two books – one according to their deeds
Rev 20:13 … Then they were each judged, each one of them, according to their deeds.

Rev 2:23 I will also strike her children with a deadly disease. Then all of Messiah’s communities will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your deeds.

Psa 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1Co 3:13 each one’s work will become clear. For the Day will show it, because it is to be revealed by fire; and the fire itself will test each one’s work—what sort it is. (Purified by fire - proportional Punishment)
1Co 3:14 If anyone’s work built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss—he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Proportional Punishment is just the flip side of Rewards

1Co 3:8  Now he who plants and he who waters work as one, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 

Not only do you deny Proportional Punishment
But you deny Proportional Rewards - you have only one reward
These are the domaine of the believing Ordinary Christian

You also deny the entire concept of Firt Fruits
The reward to the Spiritual / Born Again Christian

Your model dose not explain how Moses and Elisha could be standing with Jesus at the transfiguration - instead - they should be asleep in the grave until later

Second Book – Book of Life
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.

D And your reasoning – the Jews never understood their own faith or language.
R some did and were saved. How often is Amenuah mentioned in the OT? Once.
Hab 2:4
So why didn't these few Jews - stop practing Judaism?
Why didn't they teach their fellow Jews to stop being Jewish
Stop obeying the Torah - they don'yt need those laws -
Stop obeying the Torah - give up leagelism

BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE TIME
Ecc 3:1  For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven: 

D Yes a family of three Gods – in depended beings –
Your HS is not the spirit of God – it is an different god
Your Jesus is not God on earth – He is less than God He is just a Son
Three Gods –

R you disparage God with your comments. I stick to Scripture only. It says what it says. If Scripture doesn't say, than we are not to know.

Ge 1:2 And the Spirit of God
R you assuming mankind can read "of"... its called a Hebrew construct ... another human invention...
The word "of" is not there in the Hebrew. The phrase reads "ruwach elohiym"

I read it as the Holy Spirit Elohiym power, sounds like a member of the divine family to me, Not a separate god as you claim.

I am going to say something here – I do not mean to offend
You do not translate Hebrew – because you do not understand GRAMMAR
You look at individual words and make word salads
You yank words away from their context and by the power of simile you twist them into anything you want

(Wiki) Hebrew grammar is mostly analytical, expressing such forms as dative, ablative, and accusative using prepositional particles rather than grammatical cases. However inflection does play an important role in the formation of the verbs, nouns and the genitive construct, which is called "smikhut".

Hebrew Text: WLC_v (v1.1): Westminster Leningrad Codex with vowels
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
And the earth was without - form, and void; and - darkness [was] upon the
face of the deep. And the - Spirit of God moved upon - the face of the waters.

SPIRIT OF GOD

Gen 1:2 (LXX) ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος.

The LXX was translated by 70 of the best Egyptian Hebrew JEWSISH scholars – Rabbis all
πνεῦμα = spirit
θεοῦ = God in the genitive case = possession (mine – of me)
God’s Spirit or Spirit of God

Do not mistake – word studies – as the ability to translate


D Jews have One God – Messianic Jews and most Christian believe Jesus when He said
If you seen me you have seen the father
You have to deny too much scripture

In fact if you find a human empowered with love on earth, pick His fruit, because this love is of GOD. That does not make the supporter of GOD, actually the divine God of heaven.

You are saying Jesus was not divine – just a man – loving like God does
I so strongly disagree

D You pick and choose which metaphors mean this or that
R is this so hard? Satan is a star,
D but The king of Tyre cannot be a cherub - that simile is not allowed

D then you allow Ellen White to revise Christianity
R Ellen White was a latter rain prophet for a reason, to unravel the confusion over Hebrew. She is a Hebrew English translator.

Many authors of Catholicism were Hebrew translators – is this why you hold their translation over Israel’s?

So was Calvin – why aren’t you a dispensational Presbyterian?
So was Charles Taze Russel – why aren’t you a Jehovah Witness?

Try my test of this with her words...
Millions follow both these men – later rain prophets
Does that mean they are all correct?

[Deleted]

D So why didn't these few Jews - stop practing Judaism?
Why didn't they teach their fellow Jews to stop being Jewish
Stop obeying the Torah - they don'yt need those laws -
Stop obeying the Torah - give up leagelism

BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE TIME

R woo hang on. A supporting Jew, supporting GOD upholds the torah.
The torah is never abolished when you support GOD, we uphold the torah.
Legalism is the way you empower obedience. Not self, but God living in me.

D I am going to say something here – I do not mean to offend
You do not translate Hebrew – because you do not understand GRAMMAR

R a email from Jeff on my idea:

Shalom Rob:

Great questions, thank you. Let me first say that I encourage people to look at the text from different perspectives, so compliment you on thinking outside of the box.
If we "translate" a verse, but "transliterate" select words as if they were proper names (ie. "and the Ruwach Elohiym" was..."), this sounds great for English readers and speakers. However, keep in mind that this was written in Hebrew, so doing this is kind of irrelevent when it comes to the Hebrew text and the phrase "Ruwach Elohiym" will only be understood through Hebrew grammar. It is true that Proper names are Hebrew words with meaning, but if that proper name is composed on two words, the Hebrew will put them together, like this: ruwachelohiym. Since the two words are separated, then we must conclude that they are two different words. This could be a noun and a proper name or even two different proper names. If these are both nouns or proper nouns, then Hebrew grammar requires two nouns that are next to each other to be in the construct state. In English we show the construct state by adding the word "of," so the "of" must be placed between the two words and could be translated several different ways; "wind of God," "wind of the gods," "Ruwach of Elohiym," "wind of Elohiym," "Ruwach of God," or even "Ruwach of the gods."

He says because of the space between hebrew words, the words are not the name of a being, but a relationship "hence we add 'of'"

I cannot test this idea for my electronic Bible does not use Hebrew words or prefixs or letters easily.

D Do not mistake – word studies – as the ability to translate
R Yes, you are right. Sorry.

D You are saying Jesus was not divine – just a man – loving like God does
I so strongly disagree

R No, not saying that. Jesus was both a member of elohiym and a human. But he had to support his Father by faith, as sinners must, to achieve salvation for us, not using his own elohiym power to achieve salvation.

D The king of Tyre cannot be a cherub - that simile is not allowed

R well making a creature into a simile of another creature? Hmmm?
Can a human function like angels? Why not?
Can humans function like elohiym? Why not? Jesus said we can.
So I suppose it can work, as you say.

D So was Calvin – why aren’t you a dispensational Presbyterian?
R give me electronic copies of all Calvin's words and I will test him as a prophet.

Luther is the only one close to having some words to test,
All 500,000 words of Ellen White can be freely tested.

People following leaders, does not make the leader have truth.
By their torah, if they do not follow torah... they have no light.
SHalom

[Dave]

D So why didn't these few Jews - stop practing Judaism?
BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE TIME
R woo hang on. A supporting Jew, supporting GOD upholds the torah.

Why did Jesus come to Adam and Eve – they were given the promised of salvation
Why didn’t Jesus come to the Nephilim before the flood?
Why didn’t Jesus come to Abraham and Abraham could have been the first Christian –not the first Jew
Why was not salvation through Jesus Christ available to the 99%
And why hasn’t Jesus Christ returned yet?

Answer -
Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season and a time for every activity under heaven:

The First age occurred the in the invisible heavens
The second age is Adam and Eve to Noah
The third age is Noah to Nimrod
The age of Abraham and the Jew
Then the age of the Gentile
Followed by – the 2nd coming and another age / aion

You keep asking – why didn’t God make the world only tov
Answer – each age begins with the hope of tov and ends in ra – this is the obvious cycle

Ecc 1:10 Is there anything about which is said, “Look! This is new!”? It was already here long ago, in the ages long before us.
Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance for former things, and things yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.

This is the age of the Gentile – is this a perfect tov only reality – no – it is an earthly contest
My mission here – my purpose in life = the meaning of life
From God we came – and now we are having an physical souljourn – with the mission to remember and reveal God’s Glory to this world and our fellow souljourners
When this body dies – my soul will return to God and be judged on how well I responded to my mission

R a email from Jeff on my idea:
Shalom Rob:
Great questions, thank you. Let me first say that I encourage people to look at the text from different perspectives, so compliment you on thinking outside of the box.
If we "translate" a verse, but "transliterate" select words as if they were proper names (ie. "and the Ruwach Elohiym" was..."), this sounds great for English readers and speakers. However, keep in mind that this was written in Hebrew, so doing this is kind of irrelevent when it comes to the Hebrew text and the phrase "Ruwach Elohiym" will only be understood through Hebrew grammar. It is true that Proper names are Hebrew words with meaning, but if that proper name is composed on two words, the Hebrew will put them together, like this: ruwachelohiym. Since the two words are separated, then we must conclude that they are two different words. This could be a noun and a proper name or even two different proper names. If these are both nouns or proper nouns, then Hebrew grammar requires two nouns that are next to each other to be in the construct state. In English we show the construct state by adding the word "of," so the "of" must be placed between the two words and could be translated several different ways; "wind of God," "wind of the gods," "Ruwach of Elohiym," "wind of Elohiym," "Ruwach of God," or even "Ruwach of the gods."

He says because of the space between hebrew words, the words are not the name of a being, but a relationship "hence we add 'of'"

Dear Robert – I translate – I have taught others to translate, in person and at distance
I am no means an expert – barely intermediate

Things Jeff said that seem obvious

"translate" a verse, but "transliterate" select words
You do not translate – you transliterate – My old professor used the term – you make word salads
You throw words into a bowl and all you see are the leaves of lettuce, tomato, and onion
This is a Japanese example – “today is candy”
What does this mean? – is today candy – candy is today –
Answer – in English is means – it is a beautiful day

1000 years from now – you are the expert
With my dyeing breath all I said was – @#$%
Explain to your world – what I meant

sounds great for English readers and speakers. However, keep in mind that this was written in Hebrew, so doing this is kind of irrelevent
This is a challenge for all true linguist
You can read Hebrew – translate Hebrew into English – but you do not think Hebrew

There is a joke about three Spanish women
If you tell it in Spanish – everyone laughs
But tell it in English and everyone just looks confused

when it comes to the Hebrew text and the phrase "Ruwach Elohiym" will only be understood through Hebrew grammar

In Greek – the case of the word yields its function more than word placement
Most of the time it has to do with cadence
Japanese is – constant/vowel - constant/vowel - constant/vowel - constant/vowel
It give the language a rhythm – a cadence

Farsi – if you read the Koran aloud – you will soon find yourself in a metered chant

English – loves word placement - so we do thing like – an apple vrs a apple – successed vrs succeed

In Greek – Ruwach is a noun and Elohiym in in the genitive case – usually possession of/my
Can also mean through – by means of

D Do not mistake – word studies – as the ability to translate
R Yes, you are right. Sorry.
Don’t be sorry – be honest – this is why were are here

D You are saying Jesus was not divine – just a man – loving like God does
I so strongly disagree
R No, not saying that. Jesus was both a member of elohiym and a human. But he had to support his Father by faith, as sinners must, to achieve salvation for us, not using his own elohiym power to achieve salvation.

Sorry Robert – Jesus Christ was God on earth – or He is not the perfect sacrifice for the ALL

[Deleted]

Happy Sabbath

Some advice from you Dave


There is part of the verse in Gen 1:2 :-