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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2020 9:18:53 GMT -5
It Is Part Of The Great Conflict It formed part of the great conflict in which the "seed of woman" was to "bruise the head of the serpent." (Genesis 3:15). In this first great struggle of the conflict the destined conqueror came off completely victorious. agree. Do you agree with this Dave? What Great Conflict? DUH Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain usThe Contest was God’s idea - God’s Plan - authored by God - and established by God However - this is in no way shape or form the same asThe Great Controversy - a book by Ellen G. White, one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, where there are two opposing gods at war with one another Where the second god satan - created the controversy - satan’s idea - satan’s will - satan’s plan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 13:59:55 GMT -5
You play with a word differently Dave...your word game too
"He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world,"
It formed part of the great conflict in which the "seed of woman" was to "bruise the head of the serpent."
The Great Controversy - a book by Ellen G. White, one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, where there are two opposing gods at war with one another
conflict, controversy, contest...
Interesting words, are we on the same page? Obviously not.
God gave me a tremendous thought which helps both of us heaps. So thanks for the discussion all these months...it helps me to understand many things.
Self
Where does self come from?
Do you see self as a good or bad thing?
What is the Hebrew word for self.
Use your Gnostic writings too, if they help with answers. Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2020 20:50:31 GMT -5
are we on the same page? Obviously not.The Contest was God’s idea - God’s Plan - authored by God - and established by God However - this is in no way shape or form the same asThe Great Controversy - a book by Ellen G. White, one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, where there are two opposing gods at war with one another Where the second god satan - created the controversy - satan’s idea - satan’s will - satan’s plan SELFעצמי - myself myselfself, me, self-ownup, confidence, self-respect, self-preservation, self-destructive, wonder wondering, self-esteem, your self, clear wonder and wondering - should have been Ponder and Pondering if you ask meThe Hebrew word עֶצֶם (EH-tsem) means, literally, bone. In Biblical Hebrew, the word עַצְמִי (ahts-MEE) means only my bone or my bones. It is used figuratively in the expression עַצְמִי וּבְשָׂרִי (ahts-MEE oo-veh-sah-REE) – literally, my bone and my flesh – equivalent the expression in English, my flesh and blood (a relative). So עצמי, already in Biblical times, meant myself. In later Hebrew and through today, עצם is the common word to express the concept of self or essence. The Talmud, for instance (and in a departure from Babylonian Aramaic, back to Hebrew) states the rule: אָדָם קָרוֹב אֵצֶל עַצְמו (ah-DAHM kah-ROHV EH-tsel ahts-MOH) – a person is close to him/herself, meaning that a person cannot be held trustworthy in court to testify on his own behalf, since he may be too concerned about protecting himself to speak truthfully. עצם משחק לכלב We don’t use the word אצל in conjunction with עצם in Modern Hebrew. Rather, we use אֶת. For example, אָדָם צָרִיךְ לֶאֱהוֹב אֶת עַצְמו (ah-DAHM tsah-REEKH leh-eh-HOHV et ahts-MOH) – a person must love him/herself. And if they don’t, they should throw themselves an עצם anyway. Other declensions of עצם meaning self are: עַצְמָהּ – herself עַצְמְךַ – yourself (m.s) עַצְמֵךְ – yourself (f.s.) עַצְמְכֶם – yourselves עַצְמָם – themselves אני יכולה לרדת במדרגות בכוחות עצמי. I can get down the stairs perfectly well by myself. פעמיים ביום אחד אני מוצא עצמי מבולבל. Twice in one day, I find myself in a bewilderment. תמיד חשבתי על עצמי כעל הולנדי. I always thought of myself as Dutch. I was born in Holland. אבל הייתי שונאת את עצמי טיפ-טיפה פחות But it would make me hate myself, like, four notches less מה שעשיתי עם עצמי זו הבעיה שלי What I've done with myself is my own problem. אשים את עצמי בנעליים שלו לרגע. Let me put myself in his shoes for a moment. However - is not used in the TanakThere are many words in Hebrew that indicate ‘individuality’2Sa 18:2 And David sent forth a third part of the people under the hand of Joab, and a third part under the hand of Abishai the son of Zeruiah, Joab's brother, and a third part under the hand of Ittai the Gittite. And the king said unto the people, I will surely go forth with you myself (H589) also. H589 - אני - Contracted from H595; I: - I, (as for) me, mine, myself, we, X which, X who. Neh 5:7 Then I consulted with myself (H3820), and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them. H3820 - לב - A form of H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything: - + care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag [-eous], friend [-ly], ([broken-], [hard-], [merry-], [stiff-], [stout-], double) heart ([-ed]), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind (-ed), X regard ([-ed)], X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom. Nehemiah consulted with his own heartIn the KJV - most often the words self asnd myself are drawn out of the verbsPsa 101:2 I will behave myself wisely - future plu-perfect tense, first person singular of wisely Psa 119:16 I will delight myself - future tense , first person singular of delight Eze_38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; - future tense, first person singular of each verb But the Greek - and therefore the LXX presents something a little more spiritualLuk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I (G1473) myself: (G846) G1473 - ἐγώ - egō - A primary pronoun of the first person, “I” (only expressed when emphatic): - I, me. G846 - αὐτός - autos - AFTER 30 Yrs of GREEK - I hate this word, it has so many meanings - without context you never understand what it represents in a sentenceαὐτός - From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848. akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backwardG109 - ἀήρ - aēr -From ἄημι aēmi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. Dave writes: "Ruwach means spirit - you force it to mean only the HSRob: Actually the word ruwach means "wind", a "special wind", not ordinary wind. Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I (G1473) myself: (G846) I = myself it is (I - me - ego) = (my own wind, my own ruwach, my own spirit) Joh_5:30 I (G1473) can of mine own self (G1683) G1683 - ἐμαυτοῦ, ἐμαυτῷ, ἐμαυτόν - em-ow-too' em-ow-to' em-ow-ton Genitive, dative and accusative of a compound of G1700 and G846; G1700 - ἐμοῦ - emou - A prolonged form of G3449; of me: - me, mine, my. G846 - αὐτός - akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind G109 - ἀήρ - to breathe - breath Joh 5:30 I (Mind/Body) can of mine own (‘spirit-breath’/ soul) do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own (‘spirit-breath’/ HS) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. YES! this is Jesus Christ speaking - and Christ is the exception in humnity - but the Human Jesus speaks of the relationship human Jesus and with God before the world was
Just as Judaism says we all had relatuonship with God before the world was1Co_4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. (‘spirit-breath’/ soul) Phm_1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own (‘spirit-breath’/ soul) besides. 1Pe_2:24 Who his own (‘spirit-breath’/ HS) bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Thanks for the question - this was fun How are you coming with the Hebrew word qorbats and why Jews are never charatable
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 2:18:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the study Dave - highly appreciated.... Dave writes: " Thanks for the question - this was funYour welcome. Some questions further on this theme: 1) Do you see "Self" as the pinnacle of evil, IE: a person can sin? 2) Notice when Jesus said to the lawyer, love the Lord GOD with all your heart, and your neighbour "like". The Hebrew word there Jeff Benner says means to compare "like" not mean "thyself". So our love for our neighbour is compared to with our love to our GOD. But there is no third category... no such thing as "self love". Therefore "Self love " only exists in our fallen sinful world. Would you agree with this idea? My problem is you might say GOD is the creator of both good and evil, of both bad character and good character... I would disagree. Sure GOD knows the fruit of evil, the results of evil, but God does not do this evil. So why does evil exist? Actually Einstein says evil doesn't exist, and I agree with him. He says evil is a condition we humans term for a person who loves GOD less and less, until there is nothing left except "self love", which means nothing to GOD. If you have a look at the Hebrew word "LAB", it means heart. The stuff of your character that makes you, you. You might say it is your "spirit", well that is debatable. What happens if we swap the letters around? We get the opposite meaning.... "BAL", a word that means nothing. There is another Hebrew word similar to BAL meaning Master, in verb contexts. But in a completed context, or noun cases, the word means "BAAL" the pinnacle of "self love" that humans worship as a god. My feeling, is Baal became a word in a sinful world, shifting from Master to Self. What is the difference? Ex 21:22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's (husband) Master (baal) will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. It seems a master is a partnered ruler over one family, ie husband and wife, they work as one, hence master. The other Hebrew word "adown" meaning Lord, is a Master over a larger community of families, such as Abraham had. It implies community leading... Over the years we have corrupted the meaning of a ruler, such as a king, to a "dictator who rules alone", but ideally the meaning is a community servant, who serves with love. The concept of the completed sense, "baal-noun" is the idea of "Self", the pinnacle of evil. Notice: Jg 2:11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim KJV) or Jg 2:11 And the children of Israel did RA in the sight of the LORD, and served SELF: Notice the pinnacle of RA is SELF. What this means the person has no relational love of GOD, but is more selfish and destructive towards others. Ho 11:1 ¶ When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. 2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. 3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them. 4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them. 5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return. 6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels. 7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him. 8 ¶ How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? God calls us His Son, and Egypt the world of sin. We are fully or not fully invested in SELF, GOD wins us back with His loving, relational love, but the people are backsliding, they worship SELF as if it was the MOST HIGH. Now in the NT Paul shifts the idea of Baal meaning SELF, to another concept: Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. The BAAL Christian does not support Jesus but tries to follow the torah teachings using SELF power, rather than GOD's power. SO Paul refers to the fruit of SELF, ie WORKS of the LAW. In SDA circles we call this legalism. But is essentially SELF. Now this topic is very important, for it is the pinnacle of sin, the ultimate problem sinners face, dealing with ourselves as masters of our character, rather than allowing GOD to develop our characters. Notice Paul lists the summary of salvation in these terms: Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. There is a Greek word not translated well here: Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and fellowship forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Why is fellowship listed so highly here? Because fellowship, like fellowship love, opposes selfishness, self and self-love. Love is relational, it does not exist on it's own with GOD. But you would disagree with this, since you see GOD as one BEING, whereas I see GOD as three personalities of loving, as ONE BEING of LOVE. Love cannot be reduced to a solitary being of love, otherwise it's not relational. Love can only be reduced to three personalities of loving, such as seen in a family. "Self-love" is GOD's world of TOV, does not exist. Such destructive love came only about when sin entered the universe. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 1, 2020 13:53:15 GMT -5
Some questions further on this theme: 1) Do you see "Self" as the pinnacle of evil, IE: a person can sin? 2) Notice when Jesus said to the lawyer, love the Lord GOD with all your heart, and your neighbour "like". The Hebrew word there Jeff Benner says means to compare "like" not mean "thyself". So our love for our neighbour is compared to with our love to our GOD.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.Thyself = G4572 - σεαυτοῦ, σεαυτῷ, σεαυτόν, σαυτοῦ, σαυτῷ, σαυτόν - Here it is again messing with the Greek - my favorite wordG846 - αὐτός - autos - AFTER 30 Yrs of GREEK - I hate this word, it has so many meanings - without context you never understand what it represents in a sentenceαὐτός - From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848. akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backwardG109 - ἀήρ - aēr -From ἄημι aēmi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. “Thing” is a good way to think of αὐτός What is a “thing” = anything you need it to beThyself = G4572 - σεαυτοῦ = σε + αὐτός G4571 - σέ - se - Accusative singular of G4771; thee: - thee, thou, X thy house. The genitive case from G4571 and G846, with the dative and accusative of the same with contractions, respectively, of (with, to) thyself: - thee, thine own self, (thou) thy (-self). love thy neighbour as thyself = your own house - your own thing - your love of the Lord as = G5613 - ὡς - Probably adverb of compound from G3739; which how, that is, in that manner (very variously used as shown): - about, after (that), (according) as (it had been, it were), as soon (as), even as (like), for, how (greatly), like (as, unto), since, so (that), that, to wit, unto, when ([-soever]), while, X with all speed. love thy neighbour as thyself = love you neighbor (in the same manner as) your own house / your own thing If a student of mine translated this verse as - love your neighbor as you love the Lord I would not mark him wrong - but I would say - your own thing and leave it at thatBut there is no third category... no such thing as "self love". Therefore "Self love " only exists in our fallen sinful world. Would you agree with this idea?I have no idea how to answer you - because we have a cultural difference about the way you use the word love - so self love even become more confusing for meE = mc 2- E (The Creator) God is everything and God so loved the world that He gave us Christ But you say God cannot love himself - that would be a sin - which leaves me confused My problem is you might say GOD is the creator of both good and evil, of both bad character and good character... I would disagree.I don’t say it - it is 100% Torah Sure GOD knows the fruit of evil, the results of evil, but God does not do this evil.Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. 100% Torah[/font][/b] I will tell you why this is a problemFeel Good Christianity preaches Love and Mercy and Romans 8:28 proves that all thing are going to be good - All of this is true BUT it is man-centric and selfish Without sin - what is the need for mercy? - and whose good is it all for = God’s good not man’s Hello Feel Good Christians - what in store for your future - Mat 10 - Tribulation - Armageddon I will tell you why it is not a problemPro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. 100% Torah God made the wicked - does not say He does the wickedJas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: God made the wicked / made the archon / made the ra - FOR A PURPOSE / A FUNCTION So why does evil exist? Actually Einstein says evil doesn't exist, and I agree with him. He says evil is a condition we humans term for a person who loves GOD less and less, until there is nothing left except "self love", which means nothing to GOD. OK - I see how you say ‘self-love’ gets in the way of ‘loving God’Self-love - selfish - self-centered - carnal gratification - lust - greed - me me me - seeking only secular / worldly gratification - yester ra - unbalanced in any way it is called being a psychopath - feelings for no one except yourself and all of it gets in the way of Seeking the Kingdom of God and this is always the only reward promised to man by the archon - wealth, fame, and fortune here in this 3D realm There is another Hebrew word similar to BAL meaning Master, in verb contexts. But in a completed context, or noun cases, the word means "BAAL" the pinnacle of "self love" that humans worship as a god. My feeling, is Baal became a word in a sinful world, shifting from Master to Self. What is the difference?OK - this is a roundabout way to get there - but Baal - is an archon “other god’ - whose job it is to keep man from awakening to the reality of the one true Creator - How does Baal do this? The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryMoreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit. How does Baal do this - any of the ‘other gods’ - the tangible gift of - wealth, fame, and fortune here in this 3D realm - and for ancient man - that would have been fertility, and victory in battle While the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob only promised and non-tangible reward of life in heaven This is the seductive trap of all the ‘other gods’ tangible reward - make them real to the public While non-tangible reward of life in heaven seems to be the preview of only religious scholars Ex 21:22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's (husband) Master (baal) will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. It seems a master is a partnered ruler over one family, ie husband and wife, they work as one, hence master. In a carnal sense - man’s level the woman's (husband) Master (baal) - should read today as - the woman’s legal guardian Does not have to mean husband - her husband might be dead now - she might be a rape victim (war) Mosaic Law - husband - H1167 - בּעל - ba‛al From H1166; a master; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense: - + archer, + babbler, + bird, captain, chief man, + confederate, + have to do, + dreamer, those to whom it is due, + furious, those that are given to it, great, + hairy, he that hath it, have, + horseman, husband, lord, man, + married, master, person, + sworn, they of. (K&D Commentary) … consequently the translators have understood the words as meaning that the fruit, the premature birth of which was caused by the blow, if not yet developed into a human form, was not to be regarded as in any sense a human being, so that the giver of the blow was only required to pay a pecuniary compensation, - If the woman is killed in the process … and the clause is made to refer to the death of the mother alone, in opposition to the penal sentence in Exo_21:23, Exo_21:24, which not only demands life for life, but eye for eye, etc., and therefore presupposes not death alone, but injury done to particular members. i.e. - financial compensation vrs death OK - lets look at it spirituallyIf the master of her master is the Lord - then mercy may be given If the master of her master is - just selfish self - yeater ra - baal - then revenge demands harsh treatment Over the years we have corrupted the meaning of a ruler, such as a king, to a "dictator who rules alone", but ideally the meaning is a community servant, who serves with love. YES - I agree - it takes at least two to tangle A King without a country is not a King The concept of the completed sense, "baal-noun" is the idea of "Self", the pinnacle of evil.OK - to be focused upon self - misses focusing upon God This is the mission of the archonThe archon does not have to be a ‘god’ demanding sacrifice and worship (some are) The archon want you interested HERE - interested / focused upon this carnal world You can claim that you are an atheist - and become a famous and wealthy porn star live the ‘feel good’ worldly gratification life - the archon say - so for it - push you toward it My mom (1912-2007) would say they ‘egg’ you on - they urge you in that direction The archon cannot make to sin / miss / choose world over God - they just make the choice attractive satan in the wilderness could not force Jesus to sin - he just made it unimaginably attractive (in a secular / worldly definition) Notice: Jg 2:11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:( KJV) or Jg 2:11 And the children of Israel did RA in the sight of the LORD, and served SELF: Notice the pinnacle of RA is SELF. What this means the person has no relational love of GOD, but is more selfish and destructive towards others. I agree with all that you have saidThe Chief Archon woke up for the first time - and his very first thought was - I am alone therefore I am the first - Notice the pinnacle of RA is SELF.I do not disagree with youHo 11:1 2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. Not self - but an ‘other god’If you worship self - you do not expect a return - just because you are greedy doesn’t mean you get anything you want - even the wealthiest want more - never satisfied - trying to fill a hole inside that only God can fill to satisfaction God calls us His Son, and Egypt the world of sin. We are fully or not fully invested in SELF, GOD wins us back with His loving, relational love, but the people are backsliding, they worship SELF as if it was the MOST HIGH. Yes! - we were once in full awareness of God in heaven with God Then we were born into this 3D corporeal world (Egypt) This is the contest - live for God or live for self - I will agreeNow in the NT Paul shifts the idea of Baal meaning SELF, to another concept: Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Again - ‘other god’ Baal is an archon - the Canaanite had statues of ‘other god’ Baal There is a statue of Baal in the Kabba - looks like Catholic devilThe BAAL Christian does not support Jesus but tries to follow the torah teachings using SELF power, rather than GOD's power.Gnostic Valentinus - who wasn’t considered to be a Gnostic until he was passed over as the Bishop of Rome - wrote crazy Gnostic stuff the church tried to ban - like Father - Son - and HS He also wrote - there are three types of Christians1 - psychic - which in Greek is related to ‘spirit’ - we call them today ‘Born Again’ - straight the Bosom of Abraham - Divine Pardon 2- ordinary Christians - church seat fillers - mean well - churchians recipients of proportional Punishment - unto each according to each = proportional 3- the lost - either miss-led down a wrong path - or not even looking SO Paul refers to the fruit of SELF, ie WORKS of the LAW. In SDA circles we call this legalism. But is essentially SELF.Most Christian groups say this about the Jews - legalism and as you say - many Christian also fall into this same trap However in Judaism the point of self-obedience is to one day wake up and understand the law The law moves from your mind to your heart This is exactly the same as Christian Pentecost - being ‘Born Again’ The word of the Lord came down from the mountain at Sini The Word of the Lord came down from heaven to man at Pentecost and to each of us as we accept Christ and learn to listen to the teaching from withinAlone in the wilderness - ignorant of the Torah (all the Jews that David did not follow the Torah while in the wilderness - therefore he didn’t know any better - as to religious practice - legalism) Yet - David came to know the Lord as a Christian Read 2 Sam 12:1-12 - after David realized that it was him - a chronological Bible will jump to Psa 51:16 For thou delightest not in sacrifice; Else would I give it: Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. and what did the prophet Nathan say to this 2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against Jehovah. And Nathan said unto David, Jehovah also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Now this topic is very important, for it is the pinnacle of sin, the ultimate problem sinners face, dealing with ourselves as masters of our character, rather than allowing GOD to develop our characters. I will treat this as all your post with utmost seriousnessNotice Paul lists the summary of salvation in these terms: Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. OK - for me as Gnostic - I lean toward the words of John - the HS / Comforter will come and teach us all things - and as for all things - those would be whatever is necessary to facilitate God’s Will through youIf a laying on of the hands brings others to God - it is a gift of the HS If you have an aptitude for science and become a doctor - it is a gift of the HS If you are quite and always sit in the back row - who am I to say what gift you have except the knowledge gnosis Heb 13:15 Why is fellowship listed so highly here? Because fellowship, like fellowship love, opposes selfishness, self and self-love. Love is relational, it does not exist on it's own with GOD. Love is relational, it does not exist on it's own with GOD. So there is no relationship between man and God? or God and creation? I really do not understand your pointBut you would disagree with this, since you see GOD as one BEING, whereas I see GOD as three personalities of loving, So now you say God loves himself - but you made the point earlier that self-love = sin I am not mocking you - I seriously do not follow your logicWhy is fellowship listed so highly here? Because it is our mission on earth - to remember and share the information Perfoming our mission - following the will for our lives - is to illuminate the Glory of God to others This requires fellowship / communication with other men (fellow souljourners) It does not mean that you have to evangelise - just educate, and you can do that by the life you live - life withour works is no life at all
Where do we get our guiance and strength - our fellowship / communication with God via the HS
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Post by Richard on Jul 1, 2020 17:10:24 GMT -5
So what was the Opposer opposing? Job's connection to GOD, his Redeemer. Would GOD want humans to no longer be connected to GOD? This is what your saying making God the author of sin and archons and even a department doing God's will of making humans no longer want God.... think about what you saying?
Why would GOD who created humans, want humans to lose their connection to God?
God does not tempt man to do evil, God has a department for that? That's a silly idea Dave. Your saying GOD wants humans to be lost...I thought Scripture says GOD is love, now we also have GOD is a murderer too?
Gen 50:20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Rom 7:12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. Rom 7:13 Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; - that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 5:26:55 GMT -5
We were going so well together Dave, you and I, I loved it, until we got to here
So now you say God loves himself - but you made the point earlier that self-love = sin . I am not mocking you - I seriously do not follow your logic.
Dave you see GOD as a solitary, one being, expressing Himself as three persons, maleness-love Jesus and femaleness-love HS. And somehow you fit E, the Father?
It is almost the same to say GOD is ONE BEING, or ONE FAMILY comprise of three personalities, the Father, Mother and Son. (I use laymen terms - which might not be a true description of elohiym)
A family of three co-eternal members can show loving, and each is dependent upon the other in a combining of their loving as one.
SELF on the other hand is truly independent, such as pagan gods who had a chief deity able to do powerful things without other family deities being around. This is termed polytheism.
God on the other hand, does not do "Self-love", cannot create without community effort, and always does things together, the loving components are combined as one flow. Hope this makes sense.
SO the real test is not a GOD who designs or administrates both ra and tov, but the real test is do we humans empower ourselves with SELF, or with GOD?
The ra and tov are merely fruits of a more basic problem,
Notice the way this Opposer opposed Jesus...
First He asked Jesus to show power of self.... naturally sinners do this all the time, so could a sinless person as well.... some Catholics claimed Jesus moved his hand over chairs he made to fix up imperfectly... would he have done this...NO...no...never....
Turning rocks in to bread, is something only GOD could do....
SO the opposer was asking Jesus to show his powers of divinity, as any human would, apart from GOD, ie, SELF
Jesus refused, because GOD is not independent with powers, GOD is relational...
Second the Opposer quote scripture and tests the Bible promises which we support GOD, under salvation.... but this time use the promise of power for SELFISH reaons, to boast we have use of God's miracles of power...
Did Jesus do this SELF, or presumption with support of a Bible promise? no
Supporting GOD, is NOT testing GOD...
Third the opposer offers the pinnacle of religion, he claims to have invented, the worship of SELF....Jesus refuses because GOD is a community, and is not solitary. God is relational, loves combines, and is not independent...
So I find when you say you character is independent... this is promoting SELF...
Everything is dependent upon GOD, including our spirit....
Your choices are basically SELF or GOD
Not the fruits of doing tov and not doing ra, per se.
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 5:27:48 GMT -5
Nice quotes Richard...please feel free to comment...
Your inputs are also welcome
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 2, 2020 9:08:09 GMT -5
Dave you see GOD as a solitary, one being, expressing Himself as three persons, maleness-love Jesus and femaleness-love HS. And somehow you fit E, the Father? It is almost the same to say GOD is ONE BEING NO – it is exactly like saying GOD is ONE BEING – YES! There is only one E
It is almost the same to say GOD is ONE BEING, or ONE FAMILY comprise of three personalities, the Father, Mother and Son. (I use laymen terms - which might not be a true description of elohiym) SEE – here ya go – personalities – 3 personalities (this is usually considered an metal issue) What does this mean – personalities are living beings?
There is only one God – no other – only ONE There is only one Robert – there is only one Dave However – Robert has a duality of nature male and female If you are defensive or aggressive – we say it is your masculine side If you are focused upon the nest –we say it is you feminine side Question - are there 3 Roberts?
There is only one God – but He is way beyond our ability to comprehend – no man can see God However – we experience his duality of nature – (we are in his image M&F) If we experience the Spirit of God – it is called His F side – because it sustains the nest, energizes the nest, because the nest is the womb If we experience – Christ – it is the male image (that we can comprehend) – that builds the nest, protects the nest, saves the nest
One God (E) – that we perceive / measure in a duality of nature (m) and (c2) / M & F
A family of three co-eternal members can show loving, and each is dependent upon the other in a combining of their loving as one. So the One true God cannot act on His own? – He requires agreement with someone else? Is this the same as the One True God need permission? NO – I would never say any of these thing – or imply them in any way God on the other hand, does not do "Self-love", cannot create without community effort Here you go again – your God need permission from whom? God cannot be love – unless He is thee different people – that work together to Love – but God cannot love Himself
Here is the real difference between you and I SO the real test is not a GOD who designs or administrates both ra and tov, You deny scripture – and here we part
but the real test is do we humans empower ourselves with SELF, or with GOD? Your choices are basically SELF or GOD I do not disagree with either of these statements – explain to me how it entirely negates the function of the archon / satan
So I find when you say you character is independent... this is promoting SELF... Please define character – I tried
Everything is dependent upon GOD, including our spirit.... Including the ra, including the archon, and the function of satan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 14:08:00 GMT -5
Dave we see things differently
So where did Self come from, the idea to oppose GOD, do away with GOD?
From the father of lies, who is a murderer from the beginning...
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (two gods here?) 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus is clearly speaking of two father-gods here?
Correct?
Dave writes:
So the One true God cannot act on His own? – He requires agreement with someone else? NO – I would never say any of these thing – or imply them in any way
When Jesus came to the Jews, He and his Father sent me, we have two supreme gods here, Jews hated this idea, hence why they stoned Jesus, or tried to, and later killed him...
GOD is a family of three unique members of loving, who work together as one system of love.... You would never say this....you see one solitary Being can self love....
A battery of +ve and -ve plus fluid medium, cannot make power unless it has hands to connect... expressions of love is not a Personal Being...
A family of three persons doing love connects to make power we term love.
Father and Son spoke to the Jews...they saw this as wrong, polytheism.
Jesus said you Jews are of a different father-god...the Devil... He is solitary, on His own, has other angels maybe, but solitary,,, the One who exists...claiming to be One... Jews follow this....at least those Jews in Jesus time did....
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 2, 2020 17:19:48 GMT -5
So where did Self come from, the idea to oppose GOD, do away with GOD?To agree - I will restate you view So where does selfishness / self-come from - it is a product of (Mind/Body) Men / the animal kingdom has the alpha male phenomena This is the result of yester ra and the instinctive desire for wealth, power, and fame The archon are there to fuel these desires - to make them attractive - to keep man preoccupied here focused on this world - not the nextAs a Gnostic - do away with God - I would say forget God - forget the joy of knowing God - forget the consequences of forgetting God
All of these desires come from (Mind/Body) and this is the target of the archon Soul is a passenger in the background - perhaps speaking to your sub-conscious “Deep inside” - you know it’s wrong - but you “choose” do it anywayJoh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (two gods here?) NO - born of humans sexual reproduction = (Mind/Body) animal man If you are ‘Born Again’ you are born of your father in Heaven44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Jesus is clearly speaking of two father-gods here? -Correct?ABSOLUTLY NOT I have a car - you have a car - therefore your car must be exactly the same as mine Very one dimensionalWhy do we call the Creator Father? Did He mate with your mother - No - Instead He is our Father because he created us and everything Did satan mate with your mother -NO - Did satan create you - NO So we are speaking of two completely different things here Galileo is the Father of astronomy If I become an astronomer does this mean Galileo mated my mother? George Washington is the Father of my country Euclid is the Father of geometry How many fathers does it take before you call then a god?44 … He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryBut I said, "Sir, teach me about the faculty of these authorities – how did they come into being, and by what kind of genesis, and of what material, and who created them and their force?"Gen 1:2And the great angel Eleleth, understanding, spoke to me: "Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.Gen 1:3And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos.
Notice the pinnacle of RA is SELF. Dave writes: So the One true God cannot act on His own? – He requires agreement with someone else? NO – I would never say any of these thing – or imply them in any way When Jesus came to the Jews, He and his Father sent me, we have two supreme gods here, Jews hated this idea, hence why they stoned Jesus, or tried to, and later killed him... A family of three persons doing love connects to make power we term love. Father and Son spoke to the Jews...they saw this as wrong, polytheism. The way you present it - it is polytheism - 3 independent individual gods I say - Jesus was God incarnateYou asked once how could Jesus speak to the Father God in heaven - if Jesus was God on earth Neh_5:7 Then I consulted with myself, Prove to me that there are two prophets in this sentence
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Post by Richard on Jul 2, 2020 19:54:29 GMT -5
Robert, I have often though of saying something, but you really don’t want hear what I have to say. One of the basic principles David and I agree on is all people are not called the same. When we gather to worship, we worship. You can come worship with us at any time and we will try to make you feel welcome, no matter what you believe. friends.church/our-beliefs/GOD We believe there is one living and true God, who in essence, while eternally existing, is three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all having the same nature, attributes, and perfections. (Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 2:13, 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21) We also use the quarter to teach the trinity in adult classes. David goes way beyond what we would say, but I personally do don’t disagree with Dave GOD THE SON Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son. We believe in His conception by the Holy Spirit, virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, teachings, and that He offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people by dying on the cross. He rose from the dead on the third day to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to heaven and will return again to earth to reign as Lord and King. (Ephesians 4:1-8; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5; I John 5:20; Isaiah 53:3-12) THE BIBLE The Bible is God’s Word to all people, written by human authors through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the foundational source of truth and authority for all Christian beliefs and living. God inspires it without error. (John 17:17; II Timothy 3:16-17; Psalm 119:105; Proverbs 30:5) COMMUNION Our relationship to God as believers provides us with the privilege of moment-by-moment communion with God. It is this silent communion of our spirit with the Spirit of God that is essential to our continued walk with Him.(John 6:33, 48, 51, 14:16; Romans 8:11; Ephesians 3:14-17a; II Corinthians 13:5; Revelations 3:20) The “Lord’s Supper” is a time of remembering the death of the Lord Jesus Christ and for examining one’s life. The taking of the elements does not result in spiritual benefit, but provides the believer with a physical method of remembrance in a scripturally approved manner. (I Corinthians 11:23-28, 10:16-17; Luke 22:17-20) GOD THE FATHER God the Father is the creator of the universe and is a personal God who desires a relationship with all people. He is a supernatural being who has always existed. He is the ruler of all creation who also hears and answers prayer. He is perfect in holiness, wisdom, power, and love.(Genesis 1:1; Psalm 89:26; Isaiah 9:6; John 6:27, 45-46; I Corinthians 8:6; II Corinthians 1:3; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 5:20; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 2:13, 10:11; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21) There is only one God GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT The Holy Spirit is present in the world to make people aware of their need for Jesus Christ. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living, understanding of spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:7-14; Galatians 5:18, 22-25; Acts 1:8; I Corinthians 6:19-20) THE CHURCH The true Church is composed of all people who trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Believers are united together in the “Body of Christ,” of which Jesus is the head. Friends Church is a group of believers who have organized themselves for doing the work of God’s ministry. Our church is responsible to provide opportunities for fellowship, growth, teaching, and serving by using one’s spiritual gifts as given by the Holy Spirit. (Romans 12:5; I Corinthians 12:12-28; Ephesians 3:6, 4:11-16, 5:23) BAPTISM At the moment we become Christians we are baptized into the Body of Christ, and this spiritual baptism is completely sufficient for the believer.(Mark 1:8; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:11-12; Luke 3:16; I Peter 3:21) The physical act of water baptism by immersion after accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior is not needed for salvation or spiritual standing, but is a person’s testimony of death to sin, and resurrection to a new life in Christ. (Acts 2:28, 8:12, 16, 36-39, 10:47; Matthew 28:16-20) Unlike David or yourself, I do no need to defend my faith to anyone
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Post by Dave on Jul 3, 2020 9:29:23 GMT -5
Defend? - Hmmmmm?
To respond (AHAP) as honest / heart felt as possible - I’ll say
Years ago we had a long discussion about the ‘fear factor’ ad the dangers of interfaith proselytizing. If a Protestant converts a Catholic - Or a Baptist converts a Protestant - Or a Mormon converts to Christianity They are left with the realization that all these years they have been miss-led / wrong and most of them walk away from the faith all together Just as harmful to the faith as evolution
This is why both you and I do not consider ourselves evangelist However - our mission in this life is to reveal God to others as we souljourn
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Here I am and you cannot turn me off
Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
We have also had this conversation
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Take me - or leave me
This is one reason I love this forum - if you stand and preach, the audience demands you are an expert and know what you are talking about with great authority - well, the Pastor said The preachers views become gold - unquestioned
I want the questions - I beg for someone from around the entire globe to teach me something new. You hear the same answer from 9 different people and still don’t get it - the that 10th person says it - and suddenly it makes sense
Do I know it all? - only the arrogant would say that - I have more questions than answers - and the list grows - so - I beg for someone to show me different
Teach me - Teach Dave - is the ultimate goal of this forum - fellowship with me - help me become more than I am
Robert and I have been yacking it up for a while We chose a long time ago to be friends - to be brothers in Christ We have become intimate - please don’t confuse our tone - maybe we have been taking ‘pot shots’ at one another - as two brothers spare -
And suddenly I feel convicted - and love you man
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:14:11 GMT -5
Greetings Richard,
You say Richard, you do not need to defend your faith, why are you saying it here than? You say you do not necessarily disagree with Dave, but clearly He differs with you along some lines:
Richard writes: " "We believe there is one living and true God, who in essence, while eternally existing, is three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all having the same nature, attributes, and perfections"
This is what I too believe, but Dave does not have this view, as I have been taught over the months. He sees GOD as a solitary one Person, who has three expressions. Nothing like your saying Richard.
But later on your website, you say "There is only one God ", yet you do not explain, how this is so, if there are 3 co-eternal Persons of GOD... A Jew would see this as polytheism.
However using Eph 3:15 I explain this using the Scripture view of God as a Family.
You also say the Holy Spirit is a "he", this is again different to Dave, who sees the Holy Spirit as a "she", which is what I also believe.
So in this little showcase, I show where I believe in parts of Richard and parts of Dave.
Now you say, it doesn't really matter...?? as long AS WE ARE FRIENDLY?
What does Scripture say about this?
Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
What about doctrines?
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. (KJV)
So where does Scripture say how Scripture should be studied?
Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Here and continues for 2 chapters, but the principle is to compare Hebrew lines upon Hebrew lines, here and there over the entire Bible.
Other places it adds:
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
So first 5 books of Moses is read and compared first, than the other testimonies.
So I marvel with perplexed confusion how we can ponder the Hebrew but see totally different world views?
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:21:39 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:
Jesus is clearly speaking of two father-gods here? -Correct? ABSOLUTLY NOT I have a car - you have a car - therefore your car must be exactly the same as mine Very one dimensional
Why do we call the Creator Father? Did He mate with your mother - No - Instead He is our Father because he created us and everything Did satan mate with your mother -NO - Did satan create you - NO So we are speaking of two completely different things here
Galileo is the Father of astronomy If I become an astronomer does this mean Galileo mated my mother?
George Washington is the Father of my country Euclid is the Father of geometry
How many fathers does it take before you call then a god?
Jesus us saying the Satan is the Father of lies, the Father of Sin, the Father of Death, meaning PROVIDER of these things...
Just as the Heavenly Provider, provides humans with sinlessness, living eternally and is always truthful. Your sex mating thing is "Very one dimensional"
------ A family of three persons doing love connects to make power we term love. Father and Son spoke to the Jews...they saw this as wrong, polytheism. Dave replies: The way you present it - it is polytheism - 3 independent individual gods
Dave you see it as 3 independent individual gods, I don't.... the +ve, -ve and medium fluid, connect and combine to make a single source of power... not 3 independent gods at all, but one system of power, one family of power.
Hebrew sees a family as echad, one, even one in flesh.
------------
So where did Self come from, the idea to oppose GOD, do away with GOD? To agree - I will restate you view So where does selfishness / self-come from - it is a product of (Mind/Body)
Men / the animal kingdom has the alpha male phenomena This is the result of yester ra and the instinctive desire for wealth, power, and fame The archon are there to fuel these desires - to make them attractive - to keep man preoccupied here focused on this world - not the next
As a Gnostic - do away with God - I would say forget God - forget the joy of knowing God - forget the consequences of forgetting God
All of these desires come from (Mind/Body) and this is the target of the archon Soul is a passenger in the background - perhaps speaking to your sub-conscious “Deep inside” - you know it’s wrong - but you “choose” do it anyway
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (two gods here?)
NO - born of humans sexual reproduction = (Mind/Body) animal man If you are ‘Born Again’ you are born of your father in Heaven
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus is clearly speaking of two father-gods here? -Correct? ABSOLUTLY NOT I have a car - you have a car - therefore your car must be exactly the same as mine Very one dimensional
Jesus spoke to these Jews and said your function of loving, is coming from the Father of Lies, he was a murderer from the beginning....are you having problems with the idea of a fallen angel functioning as a father-god? You call it a chief archon, you even say its an angel, but you won't allow it to be termed the HA-Satan, as a personal chief being, the first angel who sinned?
Dave writes: So the One true God cannot act on His own? – He requires agreement with someone else? NO – I would never say any of these thing – or imply them in any way
When Jesus came to the Jews, He and his Father sent me, we have two supreme gods here, Jews hated this idea, hence why they stoned Jesus, or tried to, and later killed him...
A family of three persons doing love connects to make power we term love. Father and Son spoke to the Jews...they saw this as polytheism. The way you present it - it is polytheism - 3 independent individual gods I say - Jesus was God incarnate
If Jesus was GOD incarnate, why did Jesus pray to another God incarnate in heaven, as his Father?
Much easier to stick to Hebrew Dave, let the Hebrew tell you things.... Hebrew says GOD is a simile of family, and family members function as echad, one. -------- You asked once how could Jesus speak to the Father God in heaven - if Jesus was God on earth
Neh_5:7 Then I consulted with myself,
Prove to me that there are two prophets in this sentence
Ne 5:13 Also I shook my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, and from his labour, that performeth not this promise, even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the congregation said, Amen, and praised the LORD. And the people did according to this promise. The inspired man is a part of the system of GOD .....notice:
Also I shook my lap, and said, So God shake out every man from his house, I shake my lap, is a simile of "so God shake you" "every man from his house"
Is this not a community reference?
Shalom
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