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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2022 16:08:53 GMT -5
D" Why does a sacrifice to the Lord bring death into the world
R" Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
The sinning angel sinned in order to make Eve sin, so their came upon her womb and the womb of the HS who partners living through the woman, mischief. Hence the sinning angel wrought mischief unto the biology of the human creature, and this reaction caused permanent change.
Unlike angels who could sin and repent freely to God did not require the Lord to die for them, as no changes to their biological bodies was caused.
(I write things you disagree with already, the functional use of a heavenly biological body is far more advanced than ours, which lost much function due to our missing God's powers. We see glimpses of the missing, such as Jesus walked through walls, such as Philip was hyerspaced to a new location, the ability to talk to animals and plants freely, the orgone colours of clothing around us in light, the penal gland communiation of the third eye, just to name a few, that angels can do but we humans cannot).
So when we changed from one elohiym power to another elohiym power (hence why there are two trees in the garden representing both elohiym powers) the sinning angel immediately did mischief to the womb of Eve. (This is a speculation on my part, for the Lord says regarding weeds, an enemy did this?)
But what is certain regarding the command, no wounding. Is this judgement:
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
This command requires the death of the mischief maker, and the exchange of his life for the life of the ones he damaged.
I hypothese why sin-offering (chataah) is personified.
Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin (chataah) lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
This verse is confusing, Jeff explains the verse as "him" meaning Abel, but I am not so sure of this answer.
First how can chataah lieth at the door, the concept is already personfied as a Being. Cain is told if the sin-offering is not presented well and correctly it lieth at the door to rule over you. It suggests to me "chataah" is a ruler that rules over us.
This make sense because when a sinner confesses his sins unto a sin-bearer the sacrifice of animals is a simile of this idea, the sin-bearer rules over us declaring us as sinless before Him, and this ruler is our Saviour.
However is we do present the sin-offering incorrectly, out of order or with pride and presumption, as with Cain, than the sin-bearer is some other Being who claims to save you, to which you have faith also in, as your "saviour".
We see this alluded to in James
Jas 2:19 ... the Shad also Amanuh, and tremble.
We see the shad also amanuah, so they become saviours for humans who have faith in them. We see this in movie stars who gladly give their soul to the shad who provide them with the milk of success, or the milk of fame or the milk of riches.
In fact in my videos with Walter Veith, the Shad is a saviour opposing Jesus Christ directly, as seen from the writing or their secret books.
This is why there are "two goats" ... depicted in the Atonement Process,
Le 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
In the command, the Lord dies for the mischief, to exchange his life for the life of the sinner who must die according to this command. So this aspect of the command is fully paid for. The second aspect of the command is the mischief maker must die for the mischief, and so his life ends naturally under the curse of the sins He caused to those who sought salvation from Jesus.
D" Why is it BAD to make a sacrifice to the Lord – and must be atoned for
R" Not sure what you are asking.
D" Jesus Christ has no sin offering
R" Correct, a sin-offering requires sinnings confessed, Jesus did no sin and thus confessed nothing. He spoke of the Opposer, he has found nothing in me.
You speak as if the Opposer did not oppose Jesus directly, but the Opposer many times.
Eight verses where the Opposer opposes Jesus directly.
1) I saw the opposer fall from heaven like lightning Lu 10:18
2) Get behind me opposer, for one can only worship the Father only Lu 4:8
3) The opposer has found nothing in me JOhn 14:30
4) I came to unbound the woman bound by the opposer 18 years on Sabbath, am I not allowed to do this? Lu 13:16
5) When the Opposer entered in Judas, Jesus told him to do what he intended to do quickly. JOn 13:27
6) Aniaias lied to the HS thus allowing the Opposer to enter in, (And Dave says lying is no sin?) Act 5:3
7) I have come to cast out the Prince of this World Joh 12:31
8) The opposer is judged by Me Joh 16:11
D" Jesus Christ is NOT a sin offering
R: Well that is your opinion, do you base this on any verses ?
Le 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Here is one verse negating your view already, and is translated correctly by the KJV, how about that?
The word "chataah" is a sin-offering process.
D" NO – I do not understand why Jesus Christ must atone for the sacrifices of the people
R" I suggest you study Lev 16 carefully than.
D" NO –I do not understand why you teach Jesus Christ – is without a sin-offering
R" See how you twist? I never said that.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)
Jesus did not sin, so He did not make a sin-offering for Himself, only accepting the sin-offering of others who have faith in His salvation.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus came in the likeness of sin-offering flesh, He was a Lamb that died for sin-offerings confessed unto him.
D" Sorry Robert – you pray to the wrong god
R: Why the mock? I would not mock you?
Now you tell me how your sins are processed than Dave by Jesus? Unlike you, I will not mock what you write, please include verses.
D" no mention of creating humans of angels here, the word host could mean
Could mean – should mean – would mean = Robert’s word game
You teach that man IS NOT a part of the Host of Heaven
Yet there were are – First Fruits serving God around the throne – Rev 20:4
R" you can base your theology on one word "host" you go for it, your choice.
My theology requires "created" or "formed" as well as "host" otherwise the theme is speculative at least.
What do all the words with "host" say? Have you done this study?
D" YOU ABSOLUTELT REJECT- the Jewish teaching that the flesh is weak
No such thing as (yester ra) – the teaching is too complicated for you to understand
R" yester ra is an invented concept, based on two verses only with much hypothesis I might add.
I base my understanding on "aven" a Hebrew word meaning epi-genetic potential and in the NT the word is in English propensity, in which there are dozens of verses.
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth "talad" (born) iniquity "aven" "genetic propensities".
Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity(propensities of vanity), and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth (born) falsehood.
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from propensities [which] lust, [and] war against the soul;
Ro 1:29 Being filled with all propensities, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
These are a few to show you the Hebrew word "aven", is related to the word "born" thus is inherited within our DNA.
I do not need yester ra, this is an invented term based on two verses , not a hebrew phrase at all, but across many words.
My view is much easier to fathom, and comes directly from the epigenetics.
D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy
R" twist again, since when is an opposer equal to the one it opposes?
D" Correct you teach the Sethian view
R" Labels, I know nothing about this, so do not push me unto this idea.
D" Correct you teach the Sethian view
There is no satan or sinning angels to bother man – they are all locked away – away from man
R" see twist and assume you know.
We have many sinning angels on earth free to tempt humans, maybe many are locked away to prevent overwhelming humanity.
D" 'The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist”—Charles Baudelaire
R" this is about you, we have an opposer opposing God
you don't
D" God created man with the ability to choose
R" Choose what?
Free will implies free to choose, not forced to choose.
You do not understand
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow,
Once mischief is done to the womb it's permanent.
Unfair, forced to sin, love sin, follow the ruler naturally.
How is that a choice? based on free will? It's not.
The opposer tricked Eve in damaging her womb forever.
Nothing free will choosing here.... more like force
How is a drunk able to free choose?
How can a drug addict freely choose?
How does a smoker free choose?
Its a force that continues to force.
You whole suggestion is wrong, the temptor creatures were not tempting, they were wanting to spoil and spoil permanently.
D" OK why are humans the only creatures with a different design?
God created man with the ability to choose
R" Why can't angels choose? After all angels can sin? Therefore they choose to sin, why do you ignore this, Jews write angels can sin, Gnostic says archons sinned, but Dave does not want to follow this idea?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 12, 2022 22:21:13 GMT -5
D" Why does a sacrifice to the Lord bring death into the world R" Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man chataah entered into the world, ( Adam sinned and wrought sin-offering into the world, … D" Why is it BAD to make a sacrifice to the Lord – and must be atoned for R" Not sure what you are asking.I am asking you to explain your own translationHeb 2:17 .... to make reconciliation for the sin-offerings of the people. Heb 2:17 (TLV) …, to make atonement for the sin-offerings of the people. G2433 - ἱλάσκομαι - Middle voice from the same as G2436; to conciliate, that is, (transitively) to atone for (sin), or (intransitively) be propitious: - be merciful, make reconciliation for. D" Jesus Christ is NOT a sin offering R: Well that is your opinion, do you base this on any verses ?NO – it is your translationHeb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without " sin-offering". G5565 – χωρίς - Adverb from G5561; at a space, that is, separately or apart from (often as preposition): - beside, by itself, without. The high priest is without – apart from – separate from – a ‘sin offering’ according to you D" NO –I do not understand why you teach Jesus Christ – is without a sin-offering R" See how you twist? I never said that.
The word "chataah" is a sin-offering process.The high priest is without – apart from – separate from – a ‘sin offering process’ according to youMy view is much easier to fathom, and comes directly from the epigenetics. D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversyR" twist again, since when is an opposer equal to the one it opposes? The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe.
GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE?R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler. D" Correct you teach the Sethian view R" Labels, I know nothing about this, so do not push me unto this idea.It is your teaching – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 were only men – sons of Seth1- you teach no men in heaven - yet your Sons of Seth were in heaven with your satan Job 1 and 2 2- If Jude 1:6 and 2 peter 2:4 have nothing to do with the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – then you teach that satan and all his demons anre lock away and held in chains D" God created man with the ability to choose R" Choose what?Choose to obey God and His Commandments – or NOTD" OK why are humans the only creatures with a different design? God created man with the ability to choose R" Why can't angels choose? After all angels can sin? You have a circular argument – Ezk 28 proves an angel has free will
And angels can choose because Ezk 28Therefore they choose to sin, why do you ignore this, Jews write angels can sin,YES – they have an entire Book dedicated to their sinning angels – Enoch called them WATCHERS Gnostic says archons sinned, YES – Enoch – the Book of Creation – The Book of Jubilees – and James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all wrote about them |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 4:28:59 GMT -5
D" ( Adam sinned and wrought sin-offering into the world, …
You teach that a sacrifice for sin – brought death into the world
R" chataah is not bringing death into the world, but offering salvation to the world if done properly using faith in Jesus.
Sin-offering offers hope, to a sinner, not death to a sinner.
D"Heb 2:17 (TLV) …, to make atonement for the sin-offerings of the people.
R" Once you confessed your sins to Jesus (ie a sin-offering) Jesus can atonement for those sin-offerings, declaring you sinless again in the Father's presence. It's a wonderful gift of grace, but not to be abused, as some do, making cheap grace as an excuse for continued pet sins.
D"Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without "sin-offering".
R" The verse is saying Jesus was tempted as a sinner, but never made a sin-offering of His own, because Jesus never sinned.
Are you having trouble reading the verse?
D"D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy
R" I never said they were equivalent. Why do you insist on mocking me?
Rp" R" Have you never read the opposes objective?
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler.
D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy
R" So if the creature wishes to replace the Father and become a Most High elohiym power, that makes the creature equivalent to the Father? I don't think so.
First the creature cannot create
The creature cannot know the future or past
The creature has no almighty powers.
But the creature wants to rule as a Most High,
Is this possible ? No, not even possible for a picosecond
Yet that is what the Scripture says, the creature wanted....
DO you have trouble supporting Scripture Dave?
I never said anything about equivalent.
D" Choose to obey God and His Commandments – or NOT
R" OK why can't angels do this?
D" You have a circular argument – Ezk 28 proves an angel has free will
And angels can choose because Ezk 28
R" Why wont you answer the question?
Why can't angels have free will?
Than the angels would love God and God would love them back, no robots in heaven. Bingo, an emotional and grace and loving God, not some robotic designer.
D" YES – they have an entire Book dedicated to their sinning angels
R" Yes but Dave says angels cannot sin.
IN Ekekiel 28, a chief angel sinned, causing other angels to sin, and bringing SIN into the Father's world, long before mankind even existed.
D" YES – Enoch – the Book of Creation – The Book of Jubilees – and James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all wrote about them
R" Wow, so angels can sin. Therefore angels have free will.
DO you agree with this idea?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2022 8:14:52 GMT -5
D" ( Adam sinned and wrought sin-offering into the world, … You teach that a sacrifice for sin – brought death into the world R" chataah is not bringing death into the world, but offering salvation to the world if done properly using faith in Jesus. Sin-offering offers hope, to a sinner, not death to a sinner. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man chataah entered into the world, ( Adam sinned and wrought sin-offering into the world, … Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. So sin and death = Sin-offering offers hope, to a sinner, not death to a sinner.D"D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy R" I never said they were equivalent. Why do you insist on mocking me?
Rp" R" Have you never read the opposes objective?
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler.D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy R" So if the creature wishes to replace the Father and become a Most High elohiym power, that makes the creature equivalent to the Father? I don't think so.
I never said anything about equivalent.You are playing a word game – you teach that your satan wants to take God’s place – to replace God as the sovereign oneD" Choose to obey God and His Commandments – or NOT R" OK why can't angels do this?Because they were not created to choose – they were created to praise and serve Cow were not created to choose – they were created to be cows Ants were not created to choose – they were created as ants D" YES – they have an entire Book dedicated to their sinning angels R" Yes but Dave says angels cannot sin. They are not angels – they are ben elohiym (archon)D" YES – Enoch – the Book of Creation – The Book of Jubilees – and James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all wrote about them R" Wow, so angels can sin. Therefore angels have free will. DO you agree with this idea? The bane elohiym of Gen 6:4 spread their (yester ra) to man by reproducing out of their own kind
These archon are punished – held in chains – in a prison awaiting to be releasedQuestion - why do you teach that your satan and his demons are all locked away from man Ellen White sure defends your satan - protects him - tells us they are all lock away from us Or do you now deny the very scripture you say proves that angels sin Jud 1:6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day. 2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment. Your proof that angels sin - also prove that your satan and his demons are locked away |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 16:38:54 GMT -5
D" You teach that a sacrifice for sin – brought death into the world
R" Death of Jesus, yes, his grace, save us from death, because of our sins.
D" You are playing a word game – you teach that your satan wants to take God’s place – to replace God as the sovereign one
R" Dave gets to be the president of the USA for one day, does not make you equivalent to the president we already have.
D" Because they were not created to choose – they were created to praise and serve
R" SO Angels are mere robots, and God does not need to love them.
But you also agreed angels sin, so something wrong with your ideas, flipper floppy not consistent?
D" They are not angels – they are ben elohiym (archon)
R" Arrh" so this is your coping logic
1) Angels cannot sin, there are robots
2) The Father does not have to love them.
3) And the archons can sin, since this word game, allows them to sin, also wrongly translated as angels,
How come your Gnostic book says archons sin?
But you ignore this?
How come Enoch says the archons that came to woman were watchers, also termed angels?
How come you ignore this?
How come there is no mention of archons created as archons? No such creature by that name, sorry.
How come you ignore this?
How come you ignore cherub created and cherub sinned.
How come you play word games, inventing creatures that are not created nor mentioned in the torah?
4) Why you even split satan and satanas into two creatures of totally different origins.
D" These archon are punished – held in chains – in a prison awaiting to be released
R" Hmm? I do not buy into your ideas....
The Book of Jubilees is written in Hebrew, can I see the Hebrew word written as angels sinning here please, to see what Hebrew word they use? So interlinear please.
Sadly the NT translate messengers, which does not help us discussions.
D" 2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment.
Your proof that angels sin - also prove that your satan and his demons are locked away
R" Re 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Peter's term tartano is used once, no idea?
Rev suggests Satan is bound for 1000 years on earth after all humans die.
Before this satan and his angels can tempt humans.
Since shad do appear and tempt humans, they cannot be all bound on the earth can they?
Maybe the shad are bound to earth, cannot tempt other sinless worlds, except earth?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2022 8:41:36 GMT -5
D" You teach that a sacrifice for sin – brought death into the world R" Death of Jesus, yes, his grace, save us from death, because of our sins. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man chataah entered into the world, ( Adam sinned and wrought sin-offering into the world, … Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Why do you teach - that a sacrifice for sin – brought death into the worldD" Because they were not created to choose – they were created to praise and serve R" SO Angels are mere robots, IF you call cows, ants, and cockroaches robots – I call them animals with (yester ra) You can call angels robots if you want to – I call them angels with (yester tov) You can call the archon robots if you want to – I call them the BEAST (yester ra) R" SO Angels are mere robots, and God does not need to love them.You are sick with your opposition and hateBut you also agreed angels sin, so something wrong with your ideas, flipper floppy not consistent? The only thing not consistent is your word play The sinning angels are of Gen 6 = bane elohym = archon – locked away from man
You teach that Gen 6 = Sons of Seth - and all the devils and demons are lock away1) Angels cannot sin, there are robots 2) The Father does not have to love them. – you are sick with your satan logic 3) And the archons can sin, since this word game, allows them to sin, also wrongly translated as angels, NOPE – not a word game – simple (yester ra) expressed to the extremeHow come your Gnostic book says archons sin?DUH - Because a group of about 200 archon decided to alter their form to be more presentable to women and fathered the demi-god Nephilim of Gen 6 But you ignore this?I totally embrace the archon and the teaching of King Solomon and Enoch I totally embrace Jewish demonology How come Enoch says the archons that came to woman were watchers, also termed angels?Watchers – satanas – devils – demons – shedim – shades – spooks – goblins – archon – Jinn – principalities – www.ofzenandcomputing.com › 4400+ Demon Names List (2022): Jul 5, 2022 — This article is all about the demon names list (2022). These names of demons include Why do you get so confused over words and names?How come Enoch says the archons that came to woman were watchers, also termed angels?
How come you ignore this?Why do you get so confused over words and names?How come there is no mention of archons created as archons?
How come you ignore this?Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. How come you ignore cherub created and cherub sinned.BECAUSE precept upon precept, line upon line your satan doctrine do not hold waterYou have never given me any evidence that your satan opposes God Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord Jewish satan = belzeebul and the shedim – which are the Islamic Jinn – whichg are the other gods of the levant – which are the Gnostic archon – which are the other-gods of the entire world How come you play word games, inventing creatures that are not created nor mentioned in the torah?Why do you get so confused over words and names?“A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet” – William Shakespeare 4) Why you even split satan and satanas into two creatures of totally different origins.I DON’T the authors of the agl/NT doG4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas – Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan. G4566 - Σατᾶν – Satan - sat-an' Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan, that is, the devil: - Satan. Used only once in the agl/NT as a reminder from the Hebrew Prosecutor 2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself. ----------------- D" These archon are punished – held in chains – in a prison awaiting to be released R" Hmm? I do not buy into your ideas....Why do you deny the agl/NTJud 1:6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day. 2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment. Peter's term tartano is used once, no idea?You seriously do not know the difference between tatatrus and hades? You better find out - Christian Rev suggests Satan is bound for 1000 years on earth after all humans die.Look at your satan teaching – Messianic Jews and Christians preach salvation to eternal life |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 16:46:00 GMT -5
D" The sinning angels are of Gen 6 = bane elohym = archon – locked away from man
R" So angels can sin. Than angels have free will?
Please discuss your logic here?
Oh hang on, you are saying archons have free will and thus sin?
Or angels have free will and thus sin?
Dave you really need to discuss more?
You said archons do not have free will, nor do they sin?
You also say angels do not have free will and thus cannot sin. They were designed to praise only.
You what on earth is Dave writing here?
Dave you really need to discuss more? Readers are confused.
D" You teach that Gen 6 = Sons of Seth - and all the devils and demons are lock away
R" I teach no such thing, again you mock and assume.
D" NOPE – not a word game – simple (yester ra) expressed to the extreme
How come your Gnostic book says archons sin?
DUH - Because a group of about 200 archon decided to alter their form to be more presentable to women and fathered the demi-god Nephilim of Gen 6
But you ignore this?
I totally embrace the archon and the teaching of King Solomon and Enoch
I totally embrace Jewish demonology
How come Enoch says the archons that came to woman were watchers, also termed angels?
Watchers – satanas – devils – demons – shedim – shades – spooks – goblins – archon – Jinn – principalities –
R" More of Dave's dribble and confusion.
Tell me do archons sin or not?
Or do they only have robotic yester ra in them, so its not sinning to do what your programmed to do, its just arrogant and yester ra, but not sin, so there is no free will.
OK so GOD created creatures that "sin but it's not sin" just yester ra, to tempt humans to express their yester ra, so humans alone can sin, violating or expressing their free will?
How am I doing?
You violate torah doing this.
You have God who creates creature who sin, but without free will, they sin, but its not sinning as humans do, yet both creatures have yester ra in their heads? Dave you are not logical and play word games.
Since when would GOD create a yester ra creature in the first place?
You mock the Father.
RP" How come there is no mention of archons created as archons?
How come you ignore this?
D" Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
R" Nice try, no mention of their being created is their, and this is NT, not OT. SHAD are in the OT too?
RP " How come you ignore cherub created and cherub sinned.
D" BECAUSE precept upon precept, line upon line your satan doctrine do not hold water
R" Why doesn't it fit line upon line?
People have seen angels, they look like man, they speak, have feet, walk, eat manna like man did. What is your problem Dave ? therefore angels have free will.
D" You have never given me any evidence that your satan opposes God
R" I did, I gave you 8 verses where Jesus opposed the opposer directly.
Eight verses where the Opposer opposes Jesus directly.
1) I saw the opposer fall from heaven like lightning Lu 10:18
2) Get behind me opposer, for one can only worship the Father only Lu 4:8
3) The opposer has found nothing in me JOhn 14:30
4) I came to unbound the woman bound by the opposer 18 years on Sabbath, am I not allowed to do this? Lu 13:16
5) When the Opposer entered in Judas, Jesus told him to do what he intended to do quickly. JOn 13:27
6) Aniaias lied to the HS thus allowing the Opposer to enter in, (And Dave says lying is no sin?) Act 5:3
7) I have come to cast out the Prince of this World Joh 12:31
8) The opposer is judged by Me Joh 16:11
Have you never read this? Eight examples of Jesus opposing the opposer directly
RP" 4) Why you even split satan and satanas into two creatures of totally different origins.
D" I DON’T the authors of the agl/NT do
R" Have you ever considered the Greek satanas might just be a prefix of suffix, the stem is the same as the Hebrew, your a Greek scholar, you tell me?
So in your language scholarship, adding a prefix to a word stem, changes the word stem meaning does it?
I don't think so. The stem meaning is the same, only changes the nuance.
D" You seriously do not know the difference between tatatrus and hades?
You better find out - Christian
R" Must I? If the word is not commonly repeated it is not worthy of salvation, so one can ignore the theme.
Salvation is worthy of study, not every ... all other minor themes.
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Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2022 23:16:05 GMT -5
D" The sinning angels are of Gen 6 = bane elohym = archon – locked away from man
R" So angels can sin. Than angels have free will?
Please discuss your logic here?
D" NOPE – not a word game – simple (yester ra) expressed to the extreme
D" You teach that Gen 6 = Sons of Seth - and all the devils and demons are lock away
R" I teach no such thing, again you mock and assume.
Either you lie about the Sons of Seth teaching in Gen 6
Or you deny scripture that the sinning angles are locked away
Take your pick
You deny that the bane elohiym were ‘angelic beings‘/ angels / archon
You argue that the bane elohiym are just the Sons of Seth
Therefore – the “sinning angels” of Jude 1:6 + 2 Pet 2:4 must be locked away – and held in chains - have to be your ‘Fallen Angels’
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2022 17:24:14 GMT -5
D"Or you deny scripture that the sinning angles are locked away
R" If Satan is a sinning angel, and He has millions of other sinning angels also helping humans to sin, how can all these sinning angels be locked away in a prison house on earth? Than humans would not sin....
In fact a serpent-sinning-angel spoke to Adam, was not locked away was he?
Several thousand SHAD possessed a human, Jesus sent into pigs, were not locked away in chains either?
Jesus cast out lots of SHAD (sinning angels) so they are not all totally locked up in chains?
Dave you really do speak strange logic don't you?
My view is the angels are locked onto earth, cannot go wandering to other sinless world tempting other ben elohiym creature to sin. Man is the only ben elohiym creature these sinning angels are allowed to tempt to sin. Hence they are locked on the earth, but not totally locked away...some might be, we do not have all the details...
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 16, 2022 3:55:27 GMT -5
D"Or you deny scripture that the sinning angles are locked away
My view is the angels are locked onto earth,
Where is the scripture to support your view?
In fact a serpent-sinning-angel spoke to Adam, was not locked away was he?
Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
Several thousand SHAD possessed a human, Jesus sent into pigs, were not locked away in chains either?
Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
Jesus cast out lots of SHAD (sinning angels) so they are not all totally locked up in chains?
Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
Dave you really do speak strange logic don't you?
I accept scripture – Jude and 2 peter were speaking about the bane elohiym of Gen 6
Where is the scripture to support your view?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2022 16:20:44 GMT -5
Rp " My view is the angels are locked onto earth,
D" Where is the scripture to support your view?
R" Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: ...neither was their place found any more in heaven. (the opposer) was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
chains
Mr 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
Lu 8:29 ...and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.
Lu 13:16 ....be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Ac 16:26 And suddenly .....and every one's bands were loosed.
Ac 26:29 And Paul ....such as I am, except these bonds.
Php 1:13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
Php 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
Jude 1:6 And the angels ...he hath reserved in everlasting chains
Rob "Not all contexts refer chains literally, some refer to bondage spiritually. Nor does the bondage necessarily total restrict the bonded one from doing things.
Rp " In fact a serpent-sinning-angel spoke to Adam, was not locked away was he?
D" Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
R" What happened to your line upon line principle to study the word meaning carefully, not from Strong's but using sola scriptoria only, like I just did for chains.
We should also study OT chains too.
For example is not sin a bondage?
RP " Several thousand SHAD possessed a human, Jesus sent into pigs, were not locked away in chains either?
D" Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
RP" Jesus cast out lots of SHAD (sinning angels) so they are not all totally locked up in chains?
D" Proof that Jude and 2 Peter were NOT talking about your Fallen Angels
R" Well studying chains really becomes a big deal to you doesn't it.
2Ch 36:6 Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and bound him in fetters, to carry him to Babylon.
Ex 30:18 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass,
Rob" this word means "copper" not chains....
Ps 68:6 God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.
Maybe this word?
Only used once, so not much good?
Ps 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Maybe this word?
Job 36:8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction;
Pr 26:18 ¶ As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death,
Weird?
It is a hard case to find such a word Dave that implies for every use of that word, the person is completely bound and unable to do anything to others.
Re 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Question: If Satan is bound and his angels bound, how come they are bound again?
Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
The context of bounding refers to the ability to deceive humans on earth.
Notice what happened when the cherub sinned....
17 I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
The sinning angel is allowed to defile multitudes, even though it is bound to earth, so other kings may behold thee.
12 for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Now if the opposer is bound in fetters in some prison, how come the opposer persecutes the woman and her children (humans) ?
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Again the opposer wars against the saints...
Something wrong with your view Dave, my view fits better....
You invent two sources , Satan is different from Satanas,
no scholar agrees with you, the stem words are the same, and the Greek scholar you are should recognize the prefix suffux does not change the stem of a word.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 17, 2022 5:40:40 GMT -5
Rp " My view is the angels are locked onto earth, D" Where is the scripture to support your view? R" Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: ...neither was their place found any more in heaven. (the opposer) was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; This is a Jehovah’s Witness teaching – here on earth is hellAnd like you – they teach there is no Proportional Punishment – being alive is your punishment Doctrine totally rejectedG5020 - ταρταρόω - tartaroō = Greek TartarusD" You seriously do not know the difference between tatatrus and hades? You better find out - Christian R" Must I? If the word is not commonly repeated it is not worthy of salvation, so one can ignore the theme.
Salvation is worthy of study, not every ... all other minor themes.
I am sure your satan god approves
This is why Christians cannot have a conversation with a Rabbi - Jews are required to know all their scriptures – just not the verses that support a particular doctrine
D" Why does a sacrifice to the Lord bring death into the world R" Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Now you teach that a ‘sin offering’ is mischief?
The sinning angel sinned in order to make Eve sin,
No one agrees with you! What was his sin? Even Jeff Brenner does not agree with you Hence the sinning angel wrought mischief unto the biology of the human creature, and this reaction caused permanent change.
D:" R" Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
Your Ellen White doctrine is REJECTED
Unlike angels who could sin and repent
Scripture that angel repent – stop making up stuff to support your Ellen White doctrine
D" Jesus Christ is NOT a sin offering? R: Well that is your opinion, do you base this on any verses ?
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without " sin-offering". D" NO – I do not understand why Jesus Christ must atone for the sacrifices of the people R" I suggest you study Lev 16 carefully than.
Heb 2:17 .... to make reconciliation for the sin-offerings of the people.
Why do you teach that Jesus Christ must atone for these sin offering?
D" NO –I do not understand why you teach Jesus Christ – is without a sin-offering R" See how you twist? I never said that.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without " sin-offering". D" Sorry Robert – you pray to the wrong god R: Why the mock? I would not mock you? You give credit and praise to your satan god who change alter God’ Plan against God’s Will
D" no mention of creating humans of angels here, the word host could mean Could mean – should mean – would mean = Robert’s word game You teach that man IS NOT a part of the Host of Heaven Yet there were are – First Fruits serving God around the throne – Rev 20:4 R you can base your theology on one word "host" you go for it, your choice. You teach that man IS NOT a part of the Host of Heaven
The host of heaven = God heavenly army – why do you teach man has no part
Doctrine rejected
D" YOU ABSOLUTELT REJECT- the Jewish teaching that the flesh is weak No such thing as (yester ra) – the teaching is too complicated for you to understand R" yester ra is an invented concept, based on two verses only with much hypothesis I might add.
I base my understanding on "aven
Correct – you deny Jewish Theology and replace it with wickedness and iniquity
My view is much easier to fathom, and comes directly from the epigenetics.
Your view is based upon man’s wickedness and iniquity
You give the praise / credit to the wrong god
D" Correct – you teach two equivalent gods in a controversy R" twist again, since when is an opposer equal to the one it opposes? SO – you deny Ellen White’s SDA Great Controversy or support her teaching
There is a cosmic struggle between two gods and two kings in heaven – it continues – still rages on
D" Correct you teach the Sethian view R" Labels, I know nothing about this, so do not push me unto this idea. You bring the teaching here – then you claim ignorance
So frustrating – so un-academic
If you bring a teaching here – be prepared to support it
D" 'The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist”—Charles Baudelaire R" this is about you, we have an opposer opposing God
The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE? R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler.
ABSOLUTELT CORRECT – no one can oppose the creator!
The archon oppose man - Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: You have had 3 years to provide me with one verse where your satan god of evil disobeys or opposes GodAll you do is repeat Ezk 28 like a parrotD" God created man with the ability to choose R" Choose what?
To bad Ellen White has not taught you this answer – it is the entire focus of Christianity
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2022 16:34:59 GMT -5
D"Jews are required to know all their scriptures
R" No commentaries on Ezekiel 28
No commentaries on Daniel 8 and 9
Jews are required to ignore many scriptures is more like it.
RP" The sinning angel sinned in order to make Eve sin,
D" No one agrees with you!
R" 16 million SDA agree with me, all protestant churches agree with me, only Dave disagrees?
D" What was his sin?
R"
1) lying
2) a false report of truth
3) negating God's words
4) deception is a sin
D" Even Jeff Brenner does not agree with you
R" Last time I looked deceiving somebody with truth is in fact a false report and a sin, is it not?
D"You have had 3 years to provide me with one verse where your satan god of evil disobeys or opposes God
All you do is repeat Ezk 28 like a parrot
R" I don't need Ezek 28 anymore, I have a more powerful verse inside the ten commandments, which you also ignore
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other opposing elohiym powers before the Father's face.
You deny this verse, You ignore the Scripture.
This verse was written when Sabbath obedience was commanded, the very next day Adam was created. So opposing elohiym powers existed before Sabbath obedience existed and before man even sinned.
So some other opposing elohiym power was sinnng long before man even sinned, to become an opposing elohiym power. But you ignore this verse.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 17, 2022 19:29:06 GMT -5
D"Jews are required to know all their scriptures R" No commentaries on Ezekiel 28 Correct Robert – No one considered your Ezk 28 god of evil before Rome invented it
You have had 3 years to provide a pre-Roman sourceRP" The sinning angel sinned in order to make Eve sin, D" No one agrees with you! R" 16 million SDA agree with me, This is your proof – Ellen White followers accept Ellen White’s doctrineall protestant churches agree with me, only Dave disagrees?Why must you represent others to validate your doctrine?NO – all protestant Church do not agree with you The serpent deceived Eve This is such an important Judeo-Christian teaching If the serpent lied – Eve would have an excuse The serpent deceived – with the truth All advertising is a deception False advertising is a lie and punishable by law The serpent said – NOT die (present) + die (future imperative) The only wat the serpent lied is if the promise of eternal life is a lie D" Even Jeff Brenner does not agree with you R" Last time I looked deceiving somebody with truth is in fact a false report and a sin, is it not?I understand that your Ellen White teaching wants you to say this – but you are in error R" I don't need Ezek 28 anymore, I have a more powerful verse inside the ten commandments, which you also ignore
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other opposing elohiym powers before the Father's face.
You deny this verse, You ignore the Scripture. The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE? R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler.
God’s domain = The ALL = All 10 dimensions / heavens – and all that is in them
The domain of the BEAST = our 3D physical creation YES – I absolutely deny there are two gods locked in a cosmic battel for the control of Gods Kingdom
God’s Kingdom = The ALL = All 10 dimensions / heavens – and all that is in them
The kingdom of the BEAST = our 3D physical creationYES – I absolutely deny Ezk 28 proves that an angel was created to serve and praise – and then change his own form and function / purpose – and then changed all of God’s Plan against God’s WillThe Beast of Revelation APPEARED – by the Left hand - indirectly / a by-product / inherent The Beast appeared in a plurality The Beast = the serpent – and we call them devils and satanas The Beast and all his messengers / angels / archon / offspring – were made by God for God – Col 1:16 The archon = the PRINCIPALITIES” of Eph 6:12 – our real struggle The Contest between man and archon – and man and their WORLD – was established by GodGen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: The serpent is a biological creatureGen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. The Contest between man and archon – and man and their WORLD – was established by GodAuthoritative TeachingAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.
And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2022 16:01:24 GMT -5
D"The serpent deceived – with the truth
All advertising is a deception
False advertising is a lie and punishable by law
The serpent said – NOT die (present) + die (future imperative)
The only wat the serpent lied is if the promise of eternal life is a lie
R" Can you detail this again? I don't get you?
To me deception is a sin.
All advertising is a deception, really?
False advertising is a lie and punishable by law,
what about saying something was 700W motor and than discovering it not as advertized?
"sorry for incovenience" is all you get?
Or Chinese hacksaws that break in 3 strokes, while Japanese hacksaws last 10 years or more?
Chinese water pressure switch lasted 10 days, while a Italian pressure switch is lasting 15 yrs or more?
D"The serpent said – NOT die (present) + die (future imperative)
R" What? The serpent negated God's words?
Did the serpent negate God's words?
Jeff notes all three said things slightly differently.
So what was really said by all three speakers? I read the Hebrew from Jeff, but never read what Dave says?
D"Did the serpent lie in Genesis 3:5?
hermeneutics.stackexchange.com › questions › d...
Oct 17, 2019 — According to the dictionaries definitions, the serpent did not lie. Everything he said was 'right'. Eve did not die the 'day she ate'. And she ...
R" I disagree, GOD did die immediately partnered to Eve, the people have a wrong concept of death and dying.
The relationship of living to Eve, died immediately as she ate the fruit.
Question" What is dying defined to be?
God didn't say you would die "maveth" or experience first death "muwth", but experience the second death "muwth muwth".
D"Did the serpent in the garden lie to the woman? –
YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com › watch
May 4, 2011 — Most assume that serpent did lie to the woman. However, if we examine the incident carefully, we will find that the serpent didn't lie,
R" full link to video please?
Your links are not working, I would like to read them all?
D"YES – I absolutely deny there are two gods locked in a cosmic battel for the control of Gods Domain
R" twist, I never said that....why are you stubborn?
D"YES – I absolutely deny there are two gods locked in a cosmic battel for the control of Gods Kingdom
R" twist, I never said that....
D"YES – I absolutely deny Ezk 28 proves that an angel was created to serve and praise – and then change his own form and function
R" So when one sins, one does not change form or function?
Really Dave please explain?
Do you understand what free will means?
DO you understand what opposing love means?
If I choose to kill somebody, have I not changed my form and function?
D"The Contest between man and archon – and man and their WORLD – was established by God
Which ten commandment's says this? Not any/
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other opposing elohiym powers before the Father's face.
You deny this verse, You ignore the Scripture.
No mention of world here?
D"The serpent is a biological creature
R" Angels are biological creature
SHalom
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