There are two ways to watch these videos 1- You can watch them as a Catholic and immediately stop listening and begin arguing 2- Or you can have an open mind and listen to it point
Personally, as I adsorb anything Jewish - I always pretend that it its the day before Jesus. What was the mind set of the Jewish people of the first century AD? Jesus spoke to this group - they heard the words of Jesus - not as a 21 century Catholic - but as first century Jews.
One of the most refreshing things about a Jewish lesson - is its openness. Some say this - some say something else - but most of us accept. Put a Christian Priest, a Baptist Minister, and a Presbyterian Pastor in the same room and it is an argument over who is more right.
Dave: "There are two ways to watch these videos 1- You can watch them as a Catholic and immediately stop listening and begin arguing 2- Or you can have an open mind and listen to it point
OK, I listened to it with an open mind:
The Book of Job - Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz
U tube video
Why do bad things happen to good people?
suffer because of the sins in a past life?
bothered even Moses... show me your ways... why do righteous suffer
God doesn't answer... gracious to whom I am meriful... etc, God doesn't answer
not in torah but Bible, ie Job
Job is not Jewish
Job is just God fearing...
living good life, admired, foundation of his community
in heaven, Job not aware.
God says to angels have you ever seen a man like job
Christian view: a fallen angel
In Jewish view: satan "ha-satan" the prosecutor, a 'devils advocate'...direct attorney, the negatives, part of heavenly judicial process... gambling bet, a wager..
God says I accept the bet...
God gives the Satan permission to take away things...experiment cannot have killing...a test...
spared loss of wife, spared friends, both like death to Job... all things happen
loses all 7 sons and 7 daughters, house collapse
wife says curse Job...
Job, God gives and God takes, may the name be blessed, shall we accept the good and the bad?
chapter 2, three friends come to comfort him.
demanded an explanation of God... philosophical discussion...
end of book God shows up...
torah seems to say if you behave you will have a good life, if you don't follow torah you have a bad life.
Job friends defend conventional morality, as in torah
Job not a righteous as your thought you were, got some sins to work on.. Job doesn't accept this...
They in second round, say Job is worst sinner in anger... helplessness, you become anger at them for not responding to their help. You become overwhelmed
Round 3, friends 1 &2, and friend 3 walks away
So that allows me to separate me from others, blame, otherwise life is bad... morality structure in torah
Job says I have done nothing wrong. You guys are windbags. I want to hear from GOD. SO God speaks:
God shows him a wonders of Nature. Stars, planets, animals, huge animals, mock.. can you do better...?
can you do better? mocking Job? Job responds, mehumti, I am comforted, or I regret my words
your friends are wrong
God makes problem a much bigger problem
Why does this happen? God say friends are wrong.
Wonders of nature an answer? no God gives him a better life.
Deliberately obscure book
not accepted by Jewish tradition: God is playing bully - I can do a lot worse...
Jewish tradition - God is a god of love and mercy, God is communicate to JOb, the complexity of the universe
we are humans in 2 dimensions, deeds good and bad...
also cogs in universe, all world is staged... we have a walk on part... an actor in a play...enter stage right, break leg... director.. not fair... director might say... idiot, you would understand, has to happen to advance the overall plan of the drama you are a cog in a larger process...
one sneeze can make a big change somewhere else in the weather in the large scale of things.
can't focus on the justice to you
God says to you, if can do a better job than I, I will let you take over
34 minutes in.... OK with all this so far.....................54 minute video.
2 ) every stage of destruction leads to a higher product : ie the simile of making bread from the destruction of wheat kernels.
Good and bad are intertwined...
3) God not answering the question... I want you to know I am with you... some things don't make sense... so you feel your reality
Job looking for an answer, but found GOD
but God didn't answer, but took away the question. Fascinating rabbi
Moses asked the question, but God didn't answer either. Moses wrote Job, so wrote a philosophical novel to explain this SO Moses comes out, I don't have an answer...all I have is God... Job is not about answers, but about trusting, even when times are difficult "can't always get what you want, but you get what you need."
God gives us other things...the ability to be a better person through bad things. She said "life matters" you have a purpose.
He would not wish suffering on anyone, but he liked the person he became... cared about others
likes the person he is now, rather than he was before
Why can't God make us better from the beginning? I don't know
Practice music, suffer repetitive injury on piano, give up career Left hand playing only Right hand was damaged...no more music He became a teacher, live through them, he became best teacher of classical performance Deep tissue technique, no, I am adjusted to teaching... I can't go there... He had massage, He regained his right hand... began to play again Life was about me, God did not want me to be selfish, so took away my ability I became their success was sweet to me, when God saw that in me He gave me back that ability...
Not all stories are as nice, Jewish holocaust many died You have a choice, be bitter, or look at life with hope.
Vehicles of becoming a different person.
One freedom we have is how we choose to respond to what happen to us. How you make that choice.
Ha-satan is making a good argument...put him through this test.
Teach us, evaluate us, if life is lemons, make lemonade.
This is a great Sermon by a Jewish Rabbi. It's also sad Jews see the Hebrew words in this way. But I did like the things He said.
--------------------------- This is similar to the way Jesus spoke to Jews on the state of the dead in Luke, God meets people where they are... and we become a better person in the process we are in...
Our Rabbi gives us a world to follow, we are cogs in a testing stage...actors in a play...
God doesn't answer the question... so it seems? ---------------------------
I would love to speak to this Rabbi personally... would they remain as kind in this speech I heard?
The Ha-satanas is a district attorney in heaven, who plays the negative in a great testing.
Fair enough... is that all the Bible shows us?
Seems so if your a Jew... the Bible is very silent over the Ha-satanas being, the rabbi seems to term an angel playing the negative in a heavenly court with GOD.
Is this belief justified? It certainly does not represent the only way the text can be read. For one thing, “ha-satan” in Job and Zechariah can be quite plausibly understood not as a name but as a descriptive phrase meaning “the adversary.” Interpreted in such a manner, the satan of Zechariah and the satan of Job might be two different angelic beings, each playing the role of an accuser, a prosecuting attorney in God’s heavenly court.
Moreover, even if they are the same being, this is not the fallen angel and personification of evil of Christian tradition. The satan in Job is a member in good standing of God’s angelic retinue and not necessarily evil at all. He has an unpleasant job to perform and he performs it, but it is one, so it is implied, that has been assigned to him by God, who does not look askance at his undertaking it.
The Hebrew word for angel is "malach," which means messenger, for the angels are G‑d's messengers to perform various missions. Every angel is "programmed" to perform certain tasks; such as Michael who is dispatched on missions which are expressions of G‑d's kindness; Gavriel, who executes G‑d's severe judgments; and Rafael, whose responsibility it is to heal.9
The first explicit mention of angels in the Torah is in Genesis 16:7, when an angel appeared to Hagar when she was fleeing her mistress Sarah's home. In the Midrash, however, angels appear much earlier in history. According to differing Midrashic accounts, angels were first created either on the second or fifth day of creation.
Furthermore, angels have no free-choice and are pre-programmed to serve G‑d, whereas the human is entrusted with the mission of serving G‑d—but is given the freedom to choose to do otherwise. This reflects itself in that fact that angels are one-dimensional: each angels has one specific form of Divine service. The human soul, on the other hand, serves G‑d in many different ways, expressing itself through love, awe, etc.
The Christian term Satan for a being of some form is one of many mis-translations of Hebrew terms or words. In Hebrew it is HaSatan, which means "the Advesary". As I was taught it is simply an old term effectively replaced by the (also old) terms the Yetzer HaRa and Yetzer Ha Tov, i.e. the evil inclination and good inclination we have within ourselves. In a sense (only) characterized by the picture of a devil like figure on one shoulder of a person arguing with a good person on the other. Those are the The Adversarial forces within ourselves. I have also heard it said that HaSatan was an early form of Yetzer Har Ra. There is no Satan in the Jewish belief system. Should one come upon a word translated from Hebrew into English as Satan, from Midrashic writings, keep in mind many of these writings are "fictional" in nature and intended to convey moral meaning, not historical fact. The Talmud tells us the Book of Job is a fictional work -- wherein HaSatan plays a prominent role. "
Interesting stuff, this Jewish view. The ha-satan is a good angel doing a bad task of playing the negative as an attorney in the heavenly court of testing. Fair enough.
Where do I go to find these answers in Jewish view?
A court is a process where one judges one who does wrong? An attorney either saves you or prosecutes you. The judge makes a decision either way. So this Jewish "court" word doesn't make sense? If everybody does good what's the court for ?
Judaism teaches that human beings are not basically sinful. We come into the world neither carrying the burden of sin committed by our ancestors nor tainted by it. Rather, sin, chet, is the result of our human inclinations, the yetzer, which must be properly channeled. Chet literally means something that goes astray. It is a term used in archery to indicate that the arrow has missed its target. This concept of sin suggests a straying from the correct ways, from what is good and straight. Can humans be absolved of their failure and rid themselves of their guilt? The ideology of Yom Kippur : Yes.
Rob: " Jews don't seem to have an origin of sin?
The Hebrew word for sin is chet, which literally means "missing the mark." According to Jewish beliefs, a person sins when he or she strays away from making good, correct choices. It is believed that a person's inclination, called yetzer, is an instinctual force that can send people astray and lead them into sin unless one deliberately chooses otherwise. The principle of yetzer has sometimes been compared to Freud's concept of the id—a pleasure-seeking instinct that aims at self-gratification at the expense of reasoned choice.
The rabbinic duality of yetzer hara, the so-called “evil inclination,” and yetzer hatov, the “good inclination,” is more subtle than the names connote. Yetzer hara is not a demonic force that pushes a person to do evil, but rather a drive toward pleasure or property or security, which if left unlimited, can lead to evil (cf. Genesis Rabbah 9:7). When properly controlled by the yetzer hatov, the yetzer hara leads to many socially desirable results, including marriage, business, and community. For the rabbis, adults are distinguished from children by the yetzer hatov, which controls and channels the drives that exist unchecked in the child. Thus children may seek pleasure and acquisition, but they are not able to create a sanctified relationship or exercise the responsibility to engage in business.
Developing a Moral Sense
The classical text that describes how children are born with a yetzer hara but only later develop a yetzer hatov comes from Avot d’Rabbi Natan, a third-century midrashic companion volume to the more well known Ethics of the Fathers.
The yetzer hara is 13 years older than the yetzer hatov. While still in the mother’s womb, the yetzer hara begins to develop in a person. If he begins to violate the Sabbath, nothing stops him. If he commits murder, nothing stops him. If he goes off to another sin, nothing stops him.
But 13 years later, the yetzer hatov is born. When he violates the Sabbath, it rebukes him, “Airhead [literally: “empty one”]! Don’t you know it says ‘Everyone who violates it will surely be put to death’ (Exodus 31:14)?” If he is about to commit murder, it rebukes him, “Airhead! Don’t you know it says ‘Whoever sheds a man’s blood, by man will his blood be shed’ (Genesis 9:6)?” If he is about to engage in a sexual sin, it rebukes him, “Airhead! Don’t you know it says ‘Both the adulterer and the adulteress will surely be put to death’ (Leviticus 20:10)?” (Avot d’Rabbi Natan 16).
Rob: "OK so where does this yetzer hara and yetzer hatov come from?
In Genesis 2:7, the Bible states that G-d formed (vayyitzer) man. The spelling of this word is unusual: it uses two consecutive Yods instead of the one you would expect. The rabbis inferred that these Yods stand for the word "yetzer," which means impulse, and the existence of two Yods here indicates that humanity was formed with two impulses: a good impulse (the yetzer tov) and an evil impulse (the yetzer ra).
The yetzer tov is the moral conscience, the inner voice that reminds you of G-d's law when you consider doing something that is forbidden. According to some views, it does not enter a person until his 13th birthday, when he becomes responsible for following the commandments. See Bar Mitzvah.
The yetzer ra is more difficult to define, because there are many different ideas about it. It is not a desire to do evil in the way we normally think of it in Western society: a desire to cause senseless harm. Rather, it is usually conceived as the selfish nature, the desire to satisfy personal needs (food, shelter, sex, etc.) without regard for the moral consequences of fulfilling those desires.
The yetzer ra is not a bad thing. It was created by G-d, and all things created by G-d are good. The Talmud notes that without the yetzer ra (the desire to satisfy personal needs), man would not build a house, marry a wife, beget children or conduct business affairs. But the yetzer ra can lead to wrongdoing when it is not controlled by the yetzer tov. There is nothing inherently wrong with hunger, but it can lead you to steal food. There is nothing inherently wrong with sexual desire, but it can lead you to commit rape, adultery, incest or other sexual perversion.
The yetzer ra is generally seen as something internal to a person, not as an external force acting on a person. The idea that "the devil made me do it" is not in line with the majority of thought in Judaism. Although it has been said that Satan and the yetzer ra are one and the same, this is more often understood as meaning that Satan is merely a personification of our own selfish desires, rather than that our selfish desires are caused by some external force.
People have the ability to choose which impulse to follow: the yetzer tov or the yetzer ra. That is the heart of the Jewish understanding of free will. The Talmud notes that all people are descended from Adam, so no one can blame his own wickedness on his ancestry. On the contrary, we all have the ability to make our own choices, and we will all be held responsible for the choices we make.
Rob: This is interesting stuff.... so GOD created man with a dual nature with both, yetzer tov or the yetzer ra, built into us, the conscience voice of Holy Spirit talks to us from age 13, and we hear the yetzer tov telling us to override the yetzer ra naturally in us as well. So I am hungry, if I don't satisfy my hunger, I might steal for it. Well there is a Hebrew proverb for his idea...
It's interesting. I can see Dave's journey in this. Tov and Ra designed by GOD. Man comes with Yetzer. The Ha-satanas attorney helps in the testing, driving the natural processes of Tov and Ra across the universe.
It would be also interesting now to learn how Jews see GOD as a God of love? How can love be reconciled with Ra? Aren't these two concepts of loving opposites?
If G‑d hated evil because it opposes Him in essence, this quandary would be insurmountable. Once we say that He chose to hate evil, the issue is dismissed. On the contrary, that very choice to hate evil is the ultimate source that brings evil to existence by implication. After all, you can't hate something that doesn't exist. So evil exists in order for G‑d to despise it. Or better, it exists out of G‑d's spite for it.
Steve Goldstein, architect, was lost on an unnamed island in the South Pacific for who knows how many years. When they finally came to rescue him, they were amazed to find him the singular inhabitant of a small town, all of which had been designed and built by Steve Goldstein, architect. Before Steve left, he gave them a tour — of his house, his café, his supermarket, his movie theater, his sports arena, and finally, his prize achievement, his synagogue.
But there was one tall building he did not take them to. He seemed intent on ignoring all their questions about it. When they insisted and persisted, he gestured in annoyance and replied, "Oh, that. That's the shul I don't go to." Everyone needs a shul they don't go to. Every story written has an antagonist. Every game has a challenge. And G‑d creates evil. As the prophet Isaiah said as clear as can be, "He forms light and creates darkness, makes peace and creates evil" (Isaiah 45:7). His will creates goodness and His disdain creates evil.
G‑d can forgive us for choosing evil, since He is above the drama. But He does not forgive the evil itself. After all, that is what He chose: that He will hate evil with an ultimate hatred, and eventually have it utterly destroyed — may that be sooner than we can imagine.
I see this in Israel today—we need this balance. Without it, we cannot survive. We must be both doves and hawks at once, training our youth for both war and peace. And even in the messianic times promised by the prophets—true the wolf will lie with the lamb—but the wolf will be a wolf just as the lamb will be a lamb...
Rob: Interesting view of love. Tov love and ra love both came into the world, because the wolf love is a creature along with lamb love, but so some reason the wolf in our world eats the lamb, and in a brand new creation the wolf lives peacefully with the lamb? I am missing something here? God creating a universe with tov and ra in it? Why?
If God can create a universe without ra in it, why didn't he create our universe without ra in it? Do Jews answer this question? Or does every creation God creates have to have tov and ra?