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Rapture
Sept 4, 2016 13:00:16 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Sept 4, 2016 13:00:16 GMT -5
I found this on the internet: www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htmThe doctrine of the "post-tribulation rapture" was taught by Christianity starting in the first century CE and was popular until the 19th century. It is still held by some Christians. It teaches that when Jesus Christ returns to earth after the tribulation, believers who are alive at the time will be changed into immortal glorified bodies. A relatively new competing belief promoting a "pre-tribulation rapture" was developed during the 19th century and has become a near universal belief among fundamentalist and other evangelical Christians. This belief has Jesus returning towards the Earth before the tribulation. Christian believers -- both dead and alive -- will rise in the air to meet him in the sky. It will occur without warning. Believers in the pre-tribulation rapture have eagerly anticipated the event since the 1840s and have never given up the hope that it will occur in their very near future. I didn't know this before but the rapture was always post-trib until the early 1800s. Has the introduction of modern investigative methods, a new understanding of ancient languages, or new information has become available to cause this change?
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Rapture
Sept 4, 2016 13:50:36 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 4, 2016 13:50:36 GMT -5
Funny you should say ask – America’s place in the schema of things is interesting. “… a series of religious revivals swept the United States from the 1790s and into the 1830s that transformed the religious landscape of the country. Known today as the Second Great Awakening, this spiritual resurgence fundamentally altered the character of American religion. At the start of the Revolution the largest denominations were Congregationalists (the 18th-century descendants of Puritan churches), Anglicans (known after the Revolution as Episcopalians), and Quakers. But by 1800, Evangelical Methodism and Baptists, were becoming the fasting-growing religions in the nation. The Second Great Awakening is best known for its large camp meetings that led extraordinary numbers of people to convert through an enthusiastic style of preaching and audience participation. A young man who attended the famous 20,000-person revival at Cane Ridge, Kentucky, in 1802, captures the spirit of these camp meetings activity: ‘The noise was like the roar of Niagara. The vast sea of human beings seemed to be agitated as if by a storm. I counted seven ministers, all preaching at one time, some on stumps, others on wagons ... Some of the people were singing, others praying, some crying for mercy. A peculiarly strange sensation came over me. My heart beat tumultuously, my knees trembled, my lips quivered, and I felt as though I must fall to the ground.’ … The new evangelical movement, however, placed greater emphasis on humans' ability to change their situation for the better. By stressing that individuals could assert their "free will" in choosing to be saved and by suggesting that salvation was open to all human beings, the Second Great Awakening embraced a more optimistic view of the human condition. The repeated and varied revivals of these several decades helped make the United States a much more deeply Protestant nation than it had been before. Finally, … Both blacks and women began to participate in evangelical revivals associated with the Second Great Awakening at the end of the 18th century. From these revivals grew the roots of the both the feminist and abolitionist movements. … the Second Great Awakening also included greater public roles for white women and much higher African-American participation in Christianity than ever before.” Joseph Smith got his revelation in 1830 and the Mormon Church was created. By 1847 70,000 followers were firmly entrenched in Utah. The Millerite movement began with his lectures in 1831. In 1832 he published a series of 16 articles in a Baptist Newspaper called the Vermont Telegraph. He predicted the Second Coming would come in 1833. Every Church today that continues to teach his theology (Seventh-day Adventist) considers the year 1834 as the year of the great disappointment. 1870 comes Charles Taze Russell and the Jehovah’s Witness Watchtower movement. His Second Coming was supposed to be 1879 and the end of the world in 1914. I mean 1915, I mean 1925 - (more disappointment there) Protestantism has grown since – and has grown more and more liberal – or as I like to say: more and more diluted and polluted. Today transgender lesbian pastors can offer communion while preaching that belief is not necessary for salvation.
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Rapture
Sept 10, 2016 8:08:25 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2016 8:08:25 GMT -5
Pre – Mid – or Post Trib Rapture I have tried to approach theology pragmatically, holding to the concept that there is hidden meaning and new understandings in each and every verse. As for the idea of Pre – Mid – or Post Trib Rapture I have been open. If the Rapture happened today, those in Syria would think it Post-Trib, those in Iraq might think it to be Mid-Trib, and here in the USA it would feel Pre-Trib. However, scripture tells me over and over that I am to be tested and tested very harshly. To escape the Tribulation by being Raptured seems inconsistent with the Gnostic concept of the Great Contest in which we are all tested by many opposing forces, some physical and some spiritual. Why are We Tested by God? It is true that scripture says that God does not do the testing of humanity Himself. However, we are also told that this is exactly the role of the adversary, known as the Satan. Remember, ‘Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.’ “… Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety … it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being - after the pattern of all the things above - so that the sum of chaos might be attained.” (Robinson, James M., 1990, The Nag Hammadi Library, Hypostasis of the Archon, pg. 168, Harper, San Francisco, CA) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.’ This is exactly why the Archon exists. This is why God sends the adversary to the people, to test His people. This theme of being tested is repeated time after time and carried all through the Old and New Testaments. Genesis chapter one is the story of creation. Genesis chapter two is the store of creation retold in relation to Adam and Eve. Genesis chapter three is the very first story of humanity and beginning with verse one - enter the serpent. 1Peter 1:6-7 (ASV) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:
Zec 13:9 (ASV) And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.
Isa 48:10 (ASV) Behold, I have refined thee, but not as silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Pro 17:3 (ASV)The refining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold; But Jehovah trieth the hearts.
“The Great Contest.” Nag Hammadi Library, Authoritative Teachings, “And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. (XXX) appear (XXX) and (XXX) And nothing came into being without his wish. He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists. And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the worlds that are in the heavens, those in which universal death exists, surrounded by the individual (XXX) worldly. We have also become ashamed of the worlds, though we take no interest in them when they malign us. And we ignore them when they curse us. When they cast shame in our face, we look at them and do not speak … Now these are the foods with which the devil lies in wait for us. First he injects a pain into your heart until you have heartache on account of a small thing of this life, and he seizes (you) with his poisons. And afterward (he injects) the desire of a tunic, so that you will pride yourself in it, and love of money, pride, vanity, envy that rivals another envy, beauty of body, fraudulence. The greatest of all these are ignorance and ease ... Now all such things the adversary prepares beautifully and spreads out before the body, wishing to make the mind of the soul incline her toward one of them and overwhelm her, like a hook, drawing her by force in ignorance, deceiving her until she conceives evil, and bears fruit of matter, and conducts herself in uncleanness, pursuing many desires, covetousnesses, while fleshly pleasure draws her in ignorance … But the soul - she who has tasted these things - realized that sweet passions are transitory. She had learned about evil; she went away from them and she entered into a new conduct. Afterwards she despises this life, because it is transitory. And she looks for those foods that will take her into life, and leaves behind her those deceitful foods. And she learns about her light, as she goes about stripping off this world, while her true garment clothes her within, (and) her bridal clothing is placed upon her in beauty of mind, not in pride of flesh. And she learns about her depth and runs into her fold, while her shepherd stands at the door. In return for all the shame and scorn, then, that she received in this world, she receives ten thousand times the grace and glory.” (Robinson, James M., 1990, The Nag Hammadi Library, Authoritative Teaching, pgs. 307-309, Harper, San Francisco, CA) Can even the elect escape the testing? James asked Jesus, “Grant us, therefore, not to be tempted by the devil, the evil one. … The Lord answered and said, ‘What is your merit if you do the will of the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have become beloved through his providence by your own choice. So will you not cease loving the flesh and being afraid of sufferings? Or do you not know that you have yet to be abused and to be accused unjustly; and have yet to be shut up in prison, and condemned unlawfully, and crucified <without> reason, and buried as I myself, by the evil one? Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour...’” (Robinson, James M., 1990, The Nag Hammadi Library, The Apocryphon of James, pg. 32, Harper, San Francisco, CA)
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bowenhandsus
New Member
Just trying to post something
Posts: 8
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Rapture
Sept 10, 2016 17:38:46 GMT -5
Post by bowenhandsus on Sept 10, 2016 17:38:46 GMT -5
Let us discuss the "Rapture" and the easy believe-ism. Or could there be yet another theory? I am blessed by this discussion. Thank you to all that have commented. Wow, I love how this opened up the consciousness of the group. Thank you all, bowenhandsus
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Rapture
Sept 11, 2016 9:57:11 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Sept 11, 2016 9:57:11 GMT -5
Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapturewww.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.htmlThe Unknown Hour When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14). I am no expert, but I have been taught that the rapture happens first, then the bride (Christian Church) is in heaven with Christ, but Satan continues to accuse the bride. So, the war breaks out in heaven and the devil and his 1/3rd are cast down to Earth who causes the tribulation. Rev 12:1-11 (ASV) And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. 4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. 5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. 10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. Dan 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. Luk 12:36 and be ye yourselves like unto men looking for their lord, when he shall return from the marriage feast; that, when he cometh and knocketh, they may straightway open unto him. Christ’s second coming is after the bride is raptured to heaven
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Rapture
Sept 11, 2016 11:34:08 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Sept 11, 2016 11:34:08 GMT -5
www.according2prophecy.org/rapsec.htmlPaul speaks of the rapture as a "mystery" (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Col. 1:26), making it a separate event, while the second coming was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4). The movement for the believer at the rapture is from earth to heaven, while it is from heaven to earth at the second advent. At the rapture, the Lord comes for his saints (1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thess. 3:13). At the rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The rapture is a translation/resurrection event where the Lord takes believers "to the Father's house" in heaven (John 14:3), while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30). Hindson says, "The different aspects of our Lord's return are clearly delineated in the scriptures themselves. The only real issue in the eschatological debate is the time interval between them." The Rapture and the second coming are two different things. If they both happened at the same time, or on the same day even, is there enough time for all of prophesy to happen?
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Rapture
Sept 11, 2016 14:58:20 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2016 14:58:20 GMT -5
I get ya - and I understand - Paul did call this subject a "MYSTERY" Let me say this about time - how much time is there? The Jews are to wait 1260 days? Just how long is that? God's time and our time is never the same. The Apostles were waiting for Jesus to return in their lifetimes. Miller thought it to be 1833. Harold Camp thought it to be 1994 and then again on May 11th 2011. Google says there have been 242 dates set so far and nothing has ever happened. This is why I am not an end-timer. Does it look, feel, and act like the end times are just around the corner, but many have had this feeling. Is the world about to change? I think Yes - the collapse of the US Dollar, the fall of America, Marshal Law in America, all of it is EXTREMELY possible - but does that mandate the Biblical End Times? IF the birth of Israel as a nation in 1948 started the clock (maybe it didn't? ) then for me - I'll not be worried about the Biblical End Times until 2068. Why? Gen 6:3 (ASV) And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years. You see these argument over dates and specifics just keep up quarreling - keep us apart For me - it is a Mystery and it will happen when it happens. I still believe that for some it may feel like a pre-Trib, for others mmid-Trib, and some post-Trib Most of the problem with these Bible studies is the expectation that everyone will absolutely reach the same correct answer. Is there only one correct answer for everyone? They talk about God's plan, but God's plan for who? God's plan for Pharaoh was different than for Moses God's plan for Rahab was different that for the rest of her people God's plan for the Messiah was absolutely different than anyone at the time expected Will some be raptured away and miss the tribulation all together? - you could argue that Enoch and Elisha did that already. Scripture speak of different groups of believers. the 144,000 are different than the elect or the saints. All have a different role to play. Even the Zoroastrian Magi played a role in the birth of Christ. Blanket statements and absolutes always paint themselves into a corner. Here I go being wishy-washy again, but God's plan for the Earth involves the whole of the Earth - not just 0.01% of the population that lives in Israel.
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 8:30:10 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2016 8:30:10 GMT -5
This came to my personal email - I am sure it was intended for this forumDave, thought you might like this. Ironic how this shows up during the discussion we are having. Not ironic at all - funny how the Lord keeps dropping dimes all around us - test it all and keep the good1 - My new video/article study on the timing of God's wrath... Why the 7 Bowls Last 10 Days Good news, I'm finally creating teaching videos for YouTube and Facebook! What's the topic, you ask? When website readers see the Revelation Roadmap chart from Know the Future (below) without having gotten the book yet, they most frequently ask about one tiny part of it: Howdy Tim, was wondering how you came up with a 10-day period for the 7 bowls of God's wrath? There is no verse stating the length of God's wrath. The length becomes apparent once you identify where the Old Testament holy days are fulfilled in the seals, trumpets and bowls of Revelation. That makes this question a great showcase for the keys and principles from my book that let you interpret Revelation plainly and literally. In the video you will learn: How to read Revelation plainly and literally Identifying the parenthetical chapters that disrupt the Revelation chronological narrative The 5 OT holy days fulfilled in Revelation Which seal, trumpet, or bowl is the Rapture Where the Tribulation is in Revelation What Biblical day Jesus returns on and fights Armageddon Continue on to watch the video on these topics AND to understand what the Old Testament Scapegoat has to do with Jesus Second Coming... If you wish to support these free articles and also bless yourself with a complete understanding of the end times and how to prepare, consider my book... 2 - Know the Future - The latest 8th Edition features new chapters, new charts, a full page master chart and rewrites on every page letting it give you the most comprehensive understanding of end time prophecy easier than ever. Check out the comprehensive Revelation Roadmap chart from inside the front cover with end time prophecy details and page numbers to go to for full explanation: See www.escapeallthesethings.com/ktf-8th-edition.htm for full details. 3 - To watch my first teaching video (on Bible prophecy, of course) go to: www.escapeallthesethings.com/two-keys-bible-prophecy.htm Thank you. Tim McHyde www.EscapeAllTheseThings.comtimmchyde.com/102 5th Ave E West Fargo ND 58078 USA
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 9:32:35 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2016 9:32:35 GMT -5
I thought this video interesting – as all discussions about our Lord and Savior are interesting. However, there are several points (assumptions) from the very beginning that I differ with – therefore my conclusions built upon these assumptions also differ Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.End-Timers insist that this verse is an absolute demand that the LAW is still in effect until this physical world comes to an end. – Yet, as a Christian I am told that it is by GRACE that I am saved not the LAW. So, which is it? Am I under the LAW or GRACE? Yet, Romanology doesn’t seem to mix and match meanings to fit which ever scenario they choose. Jesus could not have meant the actual physical destruction of the Earth or the Heavens above – why, because He would have been contradicting scripture: Isa 45:17 (ASV) But Israel shall be saved by Jehovah with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be put to shame nor confounded world without end.
Isa 45:17 (KJV) But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.In a conversation with a PRETERIST I was shown a very interesting solution to the words of Jesus upon the mount. When Jesus spoke these words the Temple Mount was in full view of Jesus and his audience. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_OlivesJews celebrated the festival of Sukkot on the Mount of Olives. They made pilgrimages to the Mount of Olives because it was 80 meters higher than the Temple Mount and offered a panoramic view of the Temple site. It became a traditional place for lamenting the Temple's destruction, especially on Tisha B'AvNow – step outside of your own culture for a moment and consider how the Israelis would have interpreted this phrase – “Heaven and Earth”. There is a very cool youtube video of a Preterist walking the streets of Israel asking the general population (Theologically trained or not) what the phase means to them and they all said: ‘Heaven and Earth is the Temple – Heaven is the inner chamber where God resides and the outer chamber is the Earth where us mere mortals can go.’ So, as Jesus spoke this phrase the Temple Mount was in full view of His audience – the LAW was in effect until Rome torn down the Temple and ‘Heaven and Earth’ passed away – Now we are under GRACE not the LAW. www.gotquestions.org/preterist.htmlQuestion: "What is the preterist view of the end times?" Answer: According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.
Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it). Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.
Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended.
I agree with this last statement very much!
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 10:07:38 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2016 10:07:38 GMT -5
America is not in prophesy. I know American are so self-centered and consider themselves exceptional – but everything that happens does not revolve around America. The Bible stories happen over there, when Christ returns He will not be returning to America – but Egypt.'MYSTERY BABYLON' IS MECCA NOT VATICANExclusive: Walid Shoebat explains significance of Iran aiming missiles at Saudis Published: 05/31/2013 at 7:48 PM www.wnd.com/2013/05/mystery-babylon-is-mecca-not-vatican/#icCDB6gB54xZl3IM.99When it comes to Mystery Babylon, the common theory among many Protestant theologians is to equate it with Rome since according to them Rome is the city of seven hills. Others even equate it with actual Iraq itself since Iraq was where the original Babylon resided. … But when presenting a multitude of biblical evidence, people still angrily deny it because they etched in their minds a verse or two they say prove it’s still Rome while adhering to a centuries-old theory initiated by Martin Luther. ... . In fact, a clue to the real Babylon was just presented in an article by WND’s Aaron Klein when he stated: “Forces in the Persian Gulf and Arab intelligence services have noted the establishment of Iranian missile launch sites aimed in the direction of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, according to Egyptian and Jordanian intelligence officials speaking to WND.” Yet no one in the prophecy arena even raised a red flag about the significance of this report; Iran (biblical Elam) must destroy Arabia. In Isaiah 21:9, Isaiah levels a prophetic oracle against Babylon using the same announcement in Revelation 18:1-2 and Revelation 14:8: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen”: “The burden against Dumah” (Isaiah 21:11) “The burden against Arabia” (Isaiah 21:13) “All the glory of Kedar will fail” (Isaiah 21:16). These are all in Arabia, which is destroyed by Iran “Elam” (Isaiah 21:2). There has been an immense oversight by many in the field of biblical eschatology: When it comes to the destruction of end-days Babylon, Scripture makes no mention of any of the ancient Babylonian cities – Nineveh, Ur, Babel, Erech, Accad, Sumer, Assur, Calneh, Mari, Karana, Ellpi, Eridu, Kish, or Tikrit. Rather, all the literal references in Scripture are in Arabia. The use “MOTHER OF HARLOTS,” while it is commonly attributed to the Vatican’s Mariology as the worship of Ishtar, history records that the worship of Ishtar “Kilili,” or “Queen of Harlots,” originated from Arabia, not Rome [Patricia Turner and Charles Russell Coulter, Dictionary of Ancient Deities, page 242, Ishtar, Oxford University Press US, 2001]. In fact, when Muslims roam roundabout the black stone, it is a throwback to the worship of Ishtar whom they called Athtar and Allat. When it comes to the Harlot woman, the Ka’ba is a perfect match; the black tarp is considered by Muslims a woman’s dress (kiswa), as Edward Gibbons elaborated: “The kiswa of the magnificent Ka’ba is what is used for clothing of a [virtuous] covering, on top of it, it is written, the Kaaba’s dressing, meaning ‘we have dressed her dress.” [“The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire, Volume 6, Chap. 1] Everything that describes the harlot fits the Ka’ba: dress, pearls, jewels, gold, silver and even the blasphemies etched in silver threads with golden inlays across her attire. Just the doors of the Ka’ba alone has 280 kilograms of pure gold. The reference to a prostitute in Revelation 17, the “Whore of Babylon,” is no coincidence: “And the woman (whore) was arrayed in purple and scarlet color” (v. 17) resembles the near copulating with the Ka’ba’s Black Stone, which historically was dedicated to Aphrodite, the prostitute goddess that was called “Aphrodite Porne” (Aphrodite the Prostitute). “The goddess adorned in purple” is similar to the depictions given in Revelation 17:4, while the Ka’ba has a scarlet inner garment. John of Damascus notes, “After the Hajj was preformed by Muhammad, the ‘rubbing and kissing the [of the Black Stone] … was extremely passionate.'” Muslim tradition even perpetuates the blasphemy that, “Abraham had sexual intercourse with Hagar on it” (Sahas. Heresy, pages 88-89). Francis Burton (Vol. 3, page 295) writes regarding the Ka’ba, “The part of the cover (Kiswa), covering the door, is called just like the veil the Arabic women are wearing in front of their face … in fact, Arab mystics even compare the Ka’ba to a virgin, adorned with her finest wedding dress.” Even today during their Hajj pilgrimage, Muslims kiss, rub and caress the Black Rock.
Furthermore, it is impossible to even consider that Isaiah 21 was regarding a historic battle between Persia and ancient Babylon since the multiple references throughout are not connected to ancient Iraq but to Kedar, Tema, Dedan and Dumah, which is in Saudi Arabia near Yathrib (Medina) and today is known as “Dumat el-Jandal.” Dumah, one of the sons of Ishmael, is also associated with Edom and Seir in Isaiah 21:11. It is believed by many that Kedar, Ishmael’s sons, is the line from which Muhammad descended.
Even Muslims recognize this when they read Isaiah 21; they see Isaiah 21:14-15 as the story of Muhammad when the Muslims emigrated from Mecca to Medina (Tema) in which they were fed and rescued from the sword. No Westerner was able to interpret:
“The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.”
The Bible depicts that in this time, it will not be like the time when Muhammad fled; all Arabia, including the Glory of Kedar (Mecca), will be destroyed. How else can anyone interpret: “No Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there” (Isaiah 13:20)? Arabs pitch tents in Arabia, not Rome. The ultimate fulfillment of this verse is the destruction of the last-days Babylon. We know this because the passage speaks about “the day of the Lord” (v. 9) with the “heavens not giving light” (v. 10). This is not historical, but end-times related.
Then we have the Red Sea: “The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red Sea” (Jeremiah 49:21). Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the last-days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern-day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel 25 “Edom” stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia)” (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.
Notice the description of her destruction: “‘As Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown, along with their neighboring towns,’ says the LORD, ‘so no one will live there; no man will dwell in it'” (Jeremiah 49:18).
It is no wonder why Iran is focused on Saudi Arabia, since the Bible predicted that the harlot is destroyed by the beast she rides, that is, the nations she deceived with her spiritual harlotry – Islam.
Read more at www.wnd.com/2013/05/mystery-babylon-is-mecca-not-vatican/#icCDB6gB54xZl3IM.99
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 10:16:20 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2016 10:16:20 GMT -5
Time - and the 70 weeks of Daniel
2 Peter 3:8 (ASV) But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
To place America in the heart of prophesy and then to start counting 24hr days seems futile.
AND - any presentation that continually pauses to sell a book or offer a subscription or ask for an offering and at the same time offers insight into what the future will be is not my cup of tea. Seems more like the work of a man than the spirit.
There are many - and I mean many - versions of this end-times roadmap - all different in detail.
Let me say this about Walick Shoebat. As we look at the persecutions of the Christian and the turmoil on the world stage - it is impossible to ignore Islam's role in these end-times events.
Personal opinion.
Islamic Prophesy
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 12:12:34 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Sept 17, 2016 12:12:34 GMT -5
For me, prophesy is never to be read forward, other than the hope of its fulfillment. Prophesy has a threefold purpose. 1 - To offer the hope of God’s plan 2 – To prove scripture correct when the prophesy has been fulfilled. 3 – To prove that a prophet is of the Lord, by his particular prophesy becoming true Forward reading of prophesy is impossible. Just who knew the scripture better than the Jewish sages; yet, not one of them recognized Jesus as He rode into Jerusalem on a pale ass; and none of them accurately predicted the birth of Jesus – but – several Zoroastrian Magi did. www.ucg.org/the-good-news/the-purpose-of-prophecyWhat is the purpose of Bible prophecy? Most people don't really understand the answer. They want to know who's going to do what, and when and where it's going to happen. But they could be missing the point. Those aspects are important, and the Bible contains chapter after chapter of details addressing them. But people focusing on these details can miss out on the most important aspect of Bible prophecy—the why. Why do people do the things they do? And why does our Creator do the things He does? bible.org/seriespage/purpose-prophecyWhy is it, then, that Christians today expect that prophecy can be neatly outlined, charted, mapped, and laid out in such a way that we can say with certainty just how the last days will come to a close? This kind of thinking flies in the face of what we learn from those prophecies which have already been fulfilled. No one, not even the prophets who recorded their prophecies, was able to “package” the Old Testament prophecies in a way that enabled them to comprehend or to communicate the way in which God’s promises would come to pass. Divine prophecy will always be puzzling until after its fulfillment. Only then will we see it all marvelously, literally, and meticulously fulfilled. And when that happens, none of us will be able to say, “Just as I predicted.”6 We have every reason to expect prophecy to be literally fulfilled, but we have little basis for supposing that we, at this point in time, can suggest precisely and dogmatically just how this will take place. Let us be suspicious of every neatly packed prophetic scheme, for why should we think we are better able to predict the specifics of our Lord’s second coming when the prophets of old were unable to outline the events of the first? (4) Some prophecy may very well have multiple fulfillments. (5) God reveals prophecy partially and progressively. One reason why the prophets of old could not understand the promises of God contained in their writings is that the plan was only partly revealed. Prophecy, at best, is partial:
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Rapture
Sept 17, 2016 12:42:34 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2016 12:42:34 GMT -5
You and I are of the same mind. I know we have had this conversation many times before, but the point of the rapture is to be ready all the time, because as all other prophesies from scripture are revealed to be accurate without a fault the fact of Jesus Christ is also revealed.
Possibly this is why I am not an end-timer. So many people have gotten wrong. The internet has been filled with the notion that 'the sky is falling.' In 2000 nothing happened. In 2012 nothing happened. And with each and every prediction so far - the only thing that has happened is the lose of credibility by the Christian faith.
Revelation is such an interesting book to study.
The Preterist can show you how it has already happened in the past.
I know another fella that will argue that Revelation is about an internal struggle with the beast within - just as Shites think Jihad is an internal struggle with yourself - not as a world saga that must be played out by governments as the Sunni think.
For me - Revelation has been one of the biggest examples of the hollow feel good Christian message. God's plan for us and the Earth is a testing by tribulation, whether it be personal or global. So, whenever these feel good Christians quote Roman's 8:28 I wish they used the whole verse. Turn it over to God and all will be good in God's plan - which isn't always physically good for the Christian - remember Job?
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