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Post by Dave on Sept 14, 2019 13:17:46 GMT -5
I like the advice you give to pick and choose where to read and what to read. It's going to take quite a while to read these books, but I like your advice and will read them as you suggest./quote] This what I will say,We are a programmed biological life forms WE NEED TO BE AWARE OF OUR OWN CULTURAL PROGRAMMING Fill a Bible Study with a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Catholic, an Amish-man, a Methodist, an Evangelist, and a Pentecostal and they all see it differently. Why - because they close on new information within the framework of what they already know - they must convert it into imagery that fits for them. This is called cognitive closure. THEREFORE - as I read any scripture - I make a mental effort to un-check my Roman mythological past and try to read it as if I am just a new Christian learning everything I can - and pray on it - let that be your guide alone. Dave Story - 2000-2004, I served on a Church Board. Each board-meeting we were suppose to read something inspirational. Our favorite verse, some read from daily devotionals, a few even read their own poems. One day I read - "Some say they would believe, if God would just show them a sign; but for those of us who believe, we see signs all around us." The board members all were moved - cool - where did I get that - they asked My answer - Koran, Book of the Cow They had to call a special meeting to pray for me! (Talk about being tolerant) This was the same church that recommend a psychiatrist for the member that saw a dark presence in her bedroom
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 16:22:29 GMT -5
Love your humour too, Dave.
I prefer to read the teachings, commonly accepted by the common layperson. I have not explored all it's universe yet. It makes others take note:
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
The Hebrew word for "signs" is "wonders". So do we get miracles from Jesus flowing through us today? If not, why not?
Private miracles from Jesus happen to me daily from Jesus, the most common on is when I sow His promise to wake me "Jerimiah 33:3" I pray to lay me down o peace and wake me between 3:00 am and 3:30 am for our meeting together. And He does. Seedlings drink water early morning before the day's tribulation begins, and they wilt from exhaustion. Wilting means we run out of Holy Spirit during the days mocking by others. My biggest problem is dealing with self.
I am not sure if you understand "faith" is the meaning closer to "support" in English than any other word. Faith is nebulous as a meaning. We have to support Jesus by speaking His words, and hoping from a power flow of Jesus from those words of power we sow in our mind.
As for public miracles with others, I have not experienced this. My training in Jesus is not completed yet. I have yet to learn how to pray, NOT like an "empty storm".
Ex 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God as an "empty storm"; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name as an "empty storm".
This direction from the Father is about praying using the WORD, personified in the Son. We must pray supporting the words expecting the power flow, hoping and thanking GOD for this. But Jesus says some promises require fasting and fervent prayer training.
A modern public miracle happened in 1945 when a little child girl aged 4, supported Jesus correctly and in Nambia went out to find the manna Jesus sent them in drought times. This miracle still happens at times, even to this day?
So yes, wonders of Jesus, are part of his relationship with him.
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Post by Dave on Sept 15, 2019 10:20:45 GMT -5
Mark 16:17-18
There is a Christian spiritualist that give prophesies (Joan Lockertt) She says in one prophesy about the end times -- all you need to heal the sick is a patient and a Christ believing Christian. But those healers will become the focus of worship - not the Lord
Ability to cast out demons - of course - But then you have to accept the reality of the demons (Archon) - don't you Ability to heal - of course - and throughout history there have been many documented cases - that are usually dismissed as coincidence.
Do Miracles happen today? Sure - but they may not appear miraculous to the by-stander
Magical Theology - Parlor trick always fill the seats Part the Red Sea and an entire nation will follow you
Speaking in Tongues then - served a purpose - everyone there at Pentecost heard the Gospel in their own tongue Speaking in Tongues today - is a showboat display of religion - is it from the Lord - I am suspect
The gifts were necessary - to advance the Gospel - during the time of Christ
Since then - scripture has been silent and the TOV vrs RA saga has been playing out
At the - end of days - end times - demons will again be released upon the Earth - and again these gifts will be more prominent
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Post by Richard on Sept 15, 2019 13:03:48 GMT -5
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. In the Muslim versus Christian debate, this verse is used repeatedly. "If your Bible is correct, drink some poison and prove it." The error of single verse doctrine youtu.be/cwBVcsWYJd8
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 13:54:20 GMT -5
In the Muslim versus Christian debate, this verse is used repeatedly. "If your Bible is correct, drink some poison and prove it."
Yes Richard, Satan challenged Christ to show Himself the Son of GOD too. Jesus said " you cannot presumptuously tempt the Father-YHWH."
What is presumption? A negation of support. They are opposites.
For example: if I walk into a room full of food and asked the Lord not to "lead me into temptation and deliver me from all things dysfunctional" He empowers a way for me to walk away from manufactured madness. But if I don't say these words in my mind, and do not support Him, the power doesn't come, and I eat as my flesh desires manufactured madness (sugar and fat) are two ingredients humans know change our will to become addicted to them. Sucrose and frying food in oil, was never a part of Hebrew diet, long ago.
But if I ate them anything, saying, "Lord the mind is willing but the flesh is weak" I may be guilty of presumption. My mind is making an excuse to eat dysfunctional food, when we have come to learn it is wrong.
Scripture says not to put yourselves to the test. Perhaps we need as a community to study what is the purpose for public miracles and how and where can they be used? I haven't studied this matter completely. I only support Jesus privately so far.
There is a song, it only takes a spark to get a fire going. If you walked into an assembly not doing as it should, and supported a public miracle from Jesus, to demonstrate His truth correctly, would He support you back? That is an interesting experience. You would really have to have a deep relationship with Jesus first, experience fasting and prayer to enter into a witness like this. But I see such things are possible. But the training must come first.
Shalom
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Post by Richard on Sept 15, 2019 14:02:43 GMT -5
Seedlings drink water early morning before the day's tribulation begins, and they wilt from exhaustion. Wilting means we run out of Holy Spirit during the days mocking by others. My biggest problem is dealing with self. We teach this also. There was a Muslim member here that summed up Christian prayer like this: We rape, pillage, and plunder all day long. Then we say our prayers before we go to bed, so that we can sleep with a clean conscious; only to wake and repeat the process tomorrow. We teach our children to pray first thing in the morning, thanking the Lord for the new day, dedicating the new day to Him. Starting the day this way always keeps Him in the background of our consciousness. Faith is nebulous as a meaning. We have to support Jesus by speaking His words, and hoping from a power flow of Jesus from those words of power we sow in our mind. How could I consciously engage in sin as I am speaking His words with my lips? As for public miracles with others, I have not experienced this. Yes you haveImagine a 1900s Judeo-Christian America, then read: Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Science points to the Creator. Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. But the scientist just cannot admit it was God. The closest they can come is admitting Intelligent Design. Except when it comes to the Evolution of the species, which has become a religion of its own, then it is just random chance and random selection. Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. So God gave them up toThe Them are the Western ‘Christian’ Culture scientist of the Big Bang and Evolution Then Western ‘Christian’ Culture promoted these ideas as standardized education throughout the world. Gave them up to what? Notice the trends in social morality? Immoral living. Homosexuality, that first drove people into the closet and out of the church. Once exposed, expelled further away from the church. LGBT, a life style that required them to be anti-church; for a long enough period of time, to hurt the church. Notice the trends in Biblical denial. The Big Bang and Evolution dominate the social understand to the point that the Biblical version cannot be correct. Political correctness has blessed us with the idea that we all worship the same god. Even though this is a violation of the very first commandment. Notice the trends in both waning Christianity and the rise of Islam, within that same Western ‘Christian’ Culture. Is this a Miracle? It certainly is the Hand of God at work over a Nation or a people!
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Post by Richard on Sept 15, 2019 14:15:26 GMT -5
In the Muslim versus Christian debate, this verse is used repeatedly. "If your Bible is correct, drink some poison and prove it." Yes Richard, Satan challenged Christ to show Himself the Son of GOD too. Jesus said " you cannot presumptuously tempt the Father-YHWH." What is presumption? A negation of support. They are opposites. I understand your point, but if I were one of those Muslim debaters, how would you answer a Muslim that would satisfy a Muslim? Just to say you have an exception just seems like a cop-out to the other side. I wish I had a good answer, so help me out. The second question they are all taught to ask is: If Jesus is merciful, why does He say, Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 13:05:49 GMT -5
A nice read Richard, your so lucky to have Muslim friends to talk to. I respect Muslim's a lot, I think, though never meet any. Their Koran is what our Bible should be, a book of songs, and poetry so you can sing and memorize it easily.
De 32:44 ¶ And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun. 45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:
If we wish to read our Bibles in English, we need somebody inspired to write the OT and NT into songs and poetry, following the Hebrew messages, notice Moses spoke a chapter in Deut 32, and than wrote is as a song. No wonder the Koran is a beautiful sacred text, so easy to learn and memorize.
I have done this for one prayer of David, the 23rd:
My Saviour feeds me, day by day; •He lays me down, in His green way; •He leads me to the Spirit's side, •Where I drink of Him inside.
•He turns my soul, and guides my way; •In well worn paths, I do not stray, •He straightens me, I hold His Name, •Tenderly we show God's Fame.
•Yea I walk, through a steep valley, •Shadows of death, flow all round me, •I have no fear, no evil see, •Your branch and staff comfort me.
•A table set, facing His pressers; •My fattened head, with oil dressers, •My cup is soaked, with Your presence, •Our running flows, in righteousness.
•His goodness shows, mercy in flow, •Our living days, with Him will glow, •I will sit down, in the house of the Lord, •Eternal days, praising GOD.
I sing this prayer everyday as I walk to work. It follows the Hebrew as close as I can into English as a song and as poetry. All our OT should be converted to songs and poems like this. It would make memorizing Scripture so easy.
The Hebrew word for heavenly Father is "ABAH" this is a sound very close to the Korean sound of "abba" . They see "abba" as a single numerical cardinal one of strong authority. This cannot be true, because "love" in Hebrew does not exist as one word, but as two. THis is very significant, because this is why the animals kinds come in two flavours of love, the maleness-love kind and the femaleness-love kind. Thus an animal kind has ONE BEING of LOVE but comprised to a family personality of LOVING. In other words Love is cardinal singular as a spring, but generated by relational components, the maleness-kind or provider connecting to the responder. Think of family as a electrical battery. The component inside are three, positive, negative and medium, but love only flows when a circuit is connected. Alah is a single flow of love, yes. But this love is always a community effort.
Another way of seeing this, is "one cannot self love" actually self never existed in Hebrew, the closest word to self is Baal, meaning master. So we are master of our own lives. Is this possible? no
Everything comes via relationship. As we say no man is an island.
As for the challenge, can Christians drink poison and it not hurt them? Yes they could sow this Bible promise, and some have in War time challenges that I know of, eg from Russia.
I get the Muslim challenge, if Jesus is real, and powerful, than wonders should flow through you, even public wonders.
To me one that comes to mind, is "Lord shake the house of the Lord, so that others know you are here"
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I ((shake)) not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire. (KJV)
I would suggest getting close to Jesus, listening to Him speak to you via the conscience via the Holy Spirit, and ask Him when and what words to support Him with, and hope for the public wonders as Jesus supports you back. Is such a thing possible? yes. Often I am told to do this with fasting and deeper prayer. But yes it is possible. With Jesus all things as possible. Signs and wonders are for those who do not know the Lord, not for those of us who know the Lord.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
This Bible promise is written so we can talk in English and our brother hear the talk in Muslim language. God can translate words from one tongue to another.
Hope his helps Richard. God bless your ministry. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2019 1:21:38 GMT -5
A nice read Richard, your so lucky to have Muslim friends to talk to. I respect Muslim's a lot, I think, though never meet any. Their Koran is what our Bible should be, a book of songs, and poetry so you can sing and memorize it easily. The Koran's rhythmic chant - you are correct. If you read the Koran aloud you will find yourself in a mono-tonal chant like speech - that is easy to memorize (Spooky)Muslim friends - Not sure friends is the right word. Rich and I have both witnessed / engaged several online and in life. Ali, from Tehran, Iran was a member of this forum a while back. He taught us a lot, but he could stay here. This forum has been vandalized as to its anti-Muslim content. Respect Muslims? - I respect a persons right to be anything he is called to be. Are we all called the same = no! For personal reasons - I believe in spirits - Originally this has led me into church. Serious questioning soon uncovered a man-made Sunday church-ology / mythology. My x-pastor might tell you that I am a discontent - but I believe it to be continued growth that has caused me to leave that church (small c) behind. The Koran and Gnostic literature is crammed packed with the Jinn and Archon - Christendom has edited them completely out of the story. In the Koran - the Jinn are made from fire and man from dust The Jinn had dominion over Earth until Adam was 'breathed into' The Jinn are of fire and will always be of fire - but man has the power to choose choose to be in paradise - or in the fire with the Jinn This choice make the Jinn jealous of man and therefore acts to help man fail Some Jinn are good - but most that we see are like poltergeist The Jinn are shape-shifters - act in shadows I love this part - the Koran says - when you are speaking to a medium to a ghost - it is not a ghost, it is a Jinn with a little knowledge to trick you. The Koran says - Allah is one dimensional - it makes this point very clear - no Trinity here, that would be a sharing of power. Allah is the great deceiver. And definitely Allah has no son. When you die - if you are found obedient - you never enter heaven where Allah is - you enter Paradise, a realm Allah uses as a footstool. But you will have 72 mansion and 72 virgins Gnostic literature says - The God-head is a Trinity A trinity of form, but a duality of expression Creator - Christ (male) - Holy Spirit (female) Gnostic literature suggest that this duality of expression sets up the Yin and Yang of Gen 3:15 We are trapped within a struggle established in Gen 3:15 - within a paradigm of TOV and RA I embrace the Gnostic idea of The Great Contest (where we are all tested) Gnostic literature says clearly that Christ and salvation through Him is the extreme of TOV Gnostic literature also says clearly, The Holy Spirit established the 'testing network'of RA 'She' created the Chief Tester / Accuser, who reproduced his own staff. Gnostic literature says - She did this on her own (like it was Her own idea) But Gnostic literature also says - that all of this came about by the Creator will So, did She do it on her own, or did She just think She did? Alone - versus separate The Creator spoke alone Christ was tempted and died alone The Holy Spirit doing something 'alone'? - it fits for me Gnostic literature also says 100% - Jesus was the Christ Messiah Gnostic literature embraces and supports all the ahl and agl Gnostic literature also says the realm of the Archon has 72 aeons, with 72 rulers (Where did I here the 72 thing before?) Gnostic literature also says 100% the Chief Archon is the Great Deceiver Gnostic literature tells of Enoch and Paul traveling through the 10 heavens - both see a place called paradise on their way to higher levels. Trinity - we are 3 dimensional Abrahamic religions = Jews - Christ and Allah All through the ahl is the saga of Israel being tested by surrounding nation worshiping 'other gods' Today - Israel is being tested by surrounding nations worshiping Allah Do we all worship the same God - no Is it all according to plan - yes A Christian's wish for a Muslim is that they will find Christ and be saved A Muslim's wish for a Christian - accept Allah, even if you don't mean it - pay a tax - or die
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 13:31:09 GMT -5
You write many interesting things Dave.
I would like to explore some of them, if you care to defend your support of Gnostic literature.
I think your term of "spirits" is the fallen angels? Who also set up a medium for Satan to become in many places at once, like the Holy Spirit, thus can tempt mankind through our conscience as much as GOD does and wants to. Testing the "spirits" is the key here.
Some call them "aliens" or "ghosts" or "devils" or as your term "Jinn"?
You tend to make your sacred writings as the foundation literature "Gnostic literature" and thus these become your former rains, than the OT Hebrew is your latter rains and the NT Greek/Hebrew to latest rains? I can't agree with this idea.
To me the sacred writings foundation is the OT Hebrew literature, as former rains and the NT Hebrew/Greek as latter rains. Other witnesses and testimonies add tho these two streams. And all must agree with the foundation spring.
You seem to make your foundation spring Gnostic Literature. But that's OK for you. I will not take this from you. It's your choice. We will have to agree to disagree here. I am happy to read Gnostic literature, for it seems to augment the former rains of OT Bible, and helps us to understand it. So we have a common understanding here.
Quote: "This forum has been vandalized as to its anti-Muslim content.
Sad to here this. Part of my people get upset is because they are proud too much to acknowledge our brothers lost in confusion. Your theme pondering confusion is a good one and I have come to love the idea. God mixed the themes of salvation for a reason. Why? The Bible doesn't answer this question, only that is makes this confusion.
At Babel, the Hebrew tongue was added with more sounds, creating other languages. At NT, God added Greek to add more confusion to Jesus role as saviour. At dark Ages, more confusion added. At Reformation, more confusion add with English, a language composite of confusion.
Why all this confusion? And how do we ponder it? If your going to help somebody different to you, you have to see clearly inside their culture, to remove the speck from their eye, otherwise your not qualified to be your brothers keeper.
Humility is by Bible definition, a brother's keeper. Meeking is by Bible definition, a person looking intently to Jesus.
Both are relational concepts. Your replies are full of flavour and always interesting Dave. God bless your journey of life in God. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 17, 2019 15:23:03 GMT -5
I would like to explore some of them, if you care to defend your support of Gnostic literature. I think your term of "spirits" is the fallen angels? Who also set up a medium for Satan to become in many places at once, like the Holy Spirit, thus can tempt mankind through our conscience as much as GOD does and wants to. Testing the "spirits" is the key here. Some call them "aliens" or "ghosts" or "devils" or as your term "Jinn"? You tend to make your sacred writings as the foundation literature "Gnostic literature" and thus these become your former rains, than the OT Hebrew is your latter rains and the NT Greek/Hebrew to latest rains? I can't agree with this idea. Fallen Angels - IMO - this is a Roman myth Where does it ever say that angels have the free will to choose? Can you fall from God's grace? All of this is contrary to scripture Nephilim - does mean the fallen ones - it means one who causes others to fall Jinn is not my term - it is from the Koran Gnostic literature my foundation? My foundation is in a Judeo-Christian ahl / agl background However Roman Christendom is a false message Grandma never got her wings in heaven - Jesus was not born on the Winter Solstice - do not stand up front and babel on like a pagan Paul's New Covenant has usurped the Gospel of Jesus - I see this as a misdirection that I choose to escape from. I have been a good memorizer and my books are filled with bookmarks making them all look like porcupines My current quest is to search the misconstruction between the theology of Rome and the bulk of newly discovered materials that have escape Roman edit What fuels me on - is that both the Gnostic literature speak of an opposition force on the other hand - Roman theology edits all of this side of the story and you summed up the entire opposition force as one person named satan, who was able to fall from grace, that can be everywhere at once. To those Christians I ask - who created evil?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 3:16:21 GMT -5
Dave you raise too many themes for me to consider, but I am happy to investigate things with you.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This is the only place I think where fallen angels are mentioned.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
This is the only place in the OT where fallen cherub may be assumed...the covering cherub is Satan, and the words melek "rulers" and "traffick" suggest this covering cherub was able to sway others over to him.
Apart from these two sources, I am not sure of any?
Quote: "Paul's New Covenant has usurped the Gospel of Jesus - I see this as a misdirection that I choose to escape from.
What do you see wrong with Paul's messages?
Quote:" To those Christians I ask - who created evil?
The Scriptures don't say why, but they do say who...
O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
This cherub is a Hebrew word Being...
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Created as humans were created, thus has the same character systems as we have, I assume this by the Hebrew word "bara" meaning to "engineer".
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;
This cherub was a very high cherub near GOD
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
This makes the cherub an accuser in Eden, causing Adam to sin.
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
This makes King Tyrus a simile or personification of a cherub, who was nearest to GOD, and does evil as King Tyrus does.
Sadly the Greek in Rev 12 uses aggelos, so one can't be sure if they meant cherub? Not sure
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
This shows the Greek translation makes false claims, the Hebrew term is elohiym, not aggelos, or malak, messenger.
I don't think the NT quotes OT verses with cherub, so the NT doesn't speak clearly of cherub.
Thanks for your reply Dave and kind words. Always happy to learn something new. Shalom
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