Do Christians have multiple heavens?

[Dave]

Do Christians have multiple heavens?

Paul journeyed up to the 3rd heaven. Christian theologians explain this as heaven 1 = the breathable ATM, heaven 2 = space, and heaven 3 = just = heaven. Then why did Paul feel the need to quantitate? Why didn't he just say heaven? Many Christians preach that some will be at the right hand - doesn't that open the door to the left hand and elsewhere. Some heaven bound people are elect, some are saints, some are hoping to reap the rewards they have earned in heaven.

Is it just - Hell, Here, and Heaven? = 3
Or is it - Hell, Purgatory, Here, and heaven? = 4
Or is it - a lot more complicated that small little man imagined?

[Dillon]

My wife and I were in an adult Sunday School class somewhere in Eastern Washington, when I asked this very same question.

Of course not many wanted to weigh in, but I'll never forget the response from Janice, a retired public school administrator. She said, 'She always pictured it as if we would wake up on heaven with a fresh cup of coffee waiting for them. Some, however, would just get smaller mugs than others - She just hoped her's wasn't a descant.'

Whether they realize it or not, I think many Christians do believe in multiple heavens.

[Dave]

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (also called the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard or the Parable of the Generous Employer) is a parable of Jesus which appears in only one of the Canonical gospels of the New Testament.

According to Matthew 20:1–16 Jesus says that any "laborer" who accepts the invitation to the work in the vineyard (said by Jesus to represent the Kingdom of Heaven), no matter how late in the day, will receive an equal reward with those who have been faithful the longest.

Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the usual comeback from theology to insure an homogenous heaven. BUT- does this insure only one locality?

[Richard]

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell

Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezek 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell


Are not all these references referring to different localities?


Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
I know you Dave and I fully expect Luke 16 to be a much larger discussion one of these days


Even Luke 16 refers to 2 separate and different localities within the afterlife

[anna]

When I was a little girl I went to Sunday and Bible School I have never went to Church as an Adult. I have watched a lot of TV programs on the Bible and other subjects. I don't know if I believe there is a Heaven or Hell. It would be nice to know. I do believe that when you die your dead.

[Virginia]

I have to agree with Anna whether I believe in God orHeaven. If you look around - If you were God would you like the world that you created? I know we have free will but there comes a time when God says - No! God's chosen people . the Jews were gassed and burned in giant ovens and God did not stop it. God has no qualms about killing lots of people if you believe the story of Sodom and Gammorah or Noah's arc. So why did'nt he zap Hitler and his cronies, and save his chosen people?

[Dave]

Welcome anna,

Would it surprise you to know that there is a large section of religious leaders that also believe that when you die - you are done - the story is over. This has been a long help Jewish belief.

Pharisees believe in an afterlife.
Sadducee believe you are just dead and gone - that is why they are sad -you-see (that is how I always remember the difference.)

Yet, both of these groups believe in the Creator.

Let ask both you and Virginia to answer the following 2 questions.

1 - and this is a simple one - If Jesus Christ just fulfilled one prophesy that would be something, but in fact, He fulfilled over 300 to 400 various prophesies, dependent upon the source. What are the odds of that happening?

A Study Conducted at MIT, by Jerry Ballard of Fisher's Of Men Group, tried to calculate this very question. He wrote, “Many of the prophecies concerning the Messiah were totally beyond human control: Birth: Place, time, manner of Death: People's reactions, piercing of side, burial Resurrection: Where did His body go? By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies, the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in 100 trillion!”

One in 100 trillion - 1:100,000,000,000,000 - or – 1 x 10¹¹

“The chance of any one man's fulfilling all of 48 prophecies is one in ten to the 157th power.” - 1:10 x 10¹⁵⁷

1:10¹⁵⁷ is such a huge and unimaginable number.

What could possibly be the odds of Jesus Christ fulfilling 300 or even 400 prophesies?

For me the odds are in the favor of - there is something credible to the story of (not necessarily just Christ alone - but to the totality of the OT)

2- If there is no spirit realm - no afterlife - then how would either of you define Ghosts? or Clairvoyance?

The last thing I will say to you is that although neither of you claim to believe - yet - both of you use Judea-Christian thinking to make your statements.

Where do your ideas - or hopes for Heaven and Hell come from?

As a multidimensionalist, it is not heaven (singular) and whenever anyone uses the word HELL - I need clarification as what they mean by that? A fiery brimstone place of eternal punishment (which I do not believe)? Or what?

... God's chosen people the Jews were gassed and burned in giant ovens and God did not stop it. God has no qualms about killing lots of people if you believe the story of Sodom and Gammorah or Noah's arc. So why did'nt he zap Hitler and his cronies, and save his chosen people?

One of the biggest problems I have with the church is the teaching of a 'feel good religion.' God is always nice and wonderful! These same 'feel good' christians pray the 'Lords Prayer' from Matthew 6:9-13.

Read the passage -it says, lead me not into temptation - yet the prayer is directed toward God. Who is doing the leading here?

God's chosen people? What ever give you the idea the Jews were chosen to have nice lives? The Jews have never had a nice time of it. Before Hitler - there were the Canaanites and Philistines. They were slaves trapped in Egypt and Babylon. Rome (meaning Roman Empire) killed them by the millions and then Rome (meaning the Vatican) killed them again by the millions (Crusades). Hitler had to stand in a long line and wait his turn.

If you were God would you like the world that you created?

Again you frame your question as a doubting 'feel good christian.' Where did you ever get the idea that the world is suppose to be a nice and friendly paradise? As I read scripture I see concepts such as - Tribulation - Debt Slaves to a One World Government, where the people will have to work all day long just to be able to afford their supper (Rev 13). In fact, as I look around at this world - it appears very scriptural indeed.

AND - that just yields more support for scripture not against.

[Virginia]

Yes I am one of those people who think everything should go along with no problems whatsoever. I guess I have that idea because we always here about a loving God. To me a loving God should protect us from all evil. I guess I am wrong. I do know there is an after live and I do know there are ghosts because I lived in a haunted house where the ghost was not happy. My husband and I and our 1 yr old son Todd moved into a house in Santa Maria ,Ca in 1968 or early 1969. I knew someone was there the day we moved in because I could feel it. At night I could hear voices, 2 men and a women argue. I could not understand what they were saying. Our 1 yr old would appear in the hallway of our bedroom but he would be sound asleep. I would put him back to bed. After we moved out of the house he never sleep walked again. I tryed to become friends with the ghost. I told the ghost I was only there for a short time and we could both live in the house together. This made the ghost angry and it began to try to smother me. I was terrified. The day we moved out I was sitting outside on the curb with my son while my husband went into town to cash his check. Two sisters who lived across the street came over to say goodby. I told them about the ghost. They had heard the story before from two other ladies that had livedin the house. I have never had the feeling that something was in the house since. But I can tell you I was really scared.

[anna]

Give me an example of a Prophesy Like I said Sunday School was a long time ago. We were taught that Heaven is Good Hell is Bad Are you saying the the afterlife is the same as Heaven
Ghosts are sprites that have unfinished business before they can rest.

[Dave]

As I said before “The Odds favor” that there is something credible to the Christ story. Sticking to that same 'Odds Based' approach I’ll start with the “seventy sevens” prophecy in Daniel chapter 9, which predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.”

Sunday school lessons use this prophesy to make a big deal about Palm Sunday when the Messiah rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and the people laid palms down as a carpet upon the street.

Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

Daniel 9:24-27 - "Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people. . . . So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven sevens and sixty-two sevens; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two sevens the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

Exactly what is meant by “seventy sevens”? The phrase by itself is ambiguous, but taken in context the meaning is clear. Daniel’s prayer in verses 3-19 of the chapter refers to the fulfillment of a specific seventy-year period, the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity (which was originally prophesied by Jeremiah).

The prophecy goes on to say that “from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven sevens (49) and sixty-two sevens (434). . . . Then after the sixty-two sevens the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.”

According to the prophecy, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem there would be seven seven-year periods and sixty-two more seven-year periods—or 483 years—until the Messiah would show up. After the culmination of the 62 seven-year periods, or after 483rd year, the Messiah would be cut off.

There is some debate about the exact date of the decree that began the 483 years. There is also debate as to whether the days should be counted on our modern 365-day calendars, or the 360-day lunar calendar that was normally used in ancient times. Whichever the case, Daniel's prophecy concludes very close to the time Jesus Christ was being crucified in Jerusalem.

So, 483 years x 360 days = 173,880 days. This is the equivalent of 476 years and 25 days using our modern Gregorian 365-day calendar.

As for our starting point, the Persian Emperor Artaxerxes Longimanus (who ruled Persia from 464-424 BC) issued the edict to rebuild Jerusalem sometime during the Hebrew month of Nisan in the 20th year of his reign, or 444 BC (Nehemiah 2:1-8). The month of Nisan fell between February 27 (Nisan 1) and March 28 (Nisan 30) of that year according to our modern Gregorian calendar.

Now, 173,880 days from February 27 - March 28, 444 BC, lands us at March 24 - April 22, AD 33.
According to this prophecy, the Messiah would show up, present Himself as Messiah to the nation and then be “cut off” sometime between March 24 and April 22, AD 33.

Jesus Christ rode into Jerusalem, on a donkey, on Palm Sunday, March 27, was crucified four days later on April 1, or “Preparation Day” (the annual day on which the Passover Lamb was slain), and rose from the dead on Sunday, April 3, AD 33, all within our 30-day range of dates.

The prophecy then goes on to say that subsequent to the Messiah being “cut off,” “the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Within one generation of Christ’s crucifixion, Rome razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple in 70AD.

The Prophet Daniel predicted the very day of Christ's death—over 400 years before it occurred.

Other commonly referred to predictions =

Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Micah 5:2: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”

Likely the clearest prophecy about Jesus is the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured.

Zechariah 12:10 predicts the “piercing” of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross.
Of the best known prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures concerning the death of Messiah, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 certainly stand out. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted numerous separate elements about Jesus’ crucifixion a thousand years before Jesus was crucified. Here are some examples. Messiah will have His hands and His feet “pierced” through (Psalm 22:16; John 20:25). The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) (Psalm 22:17; John 19:33). Men will cast lots for Messiah’s clothing (Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35).

Isaiah 53, the classic messianic prophecy known as “The Suffering Servant,” also details the death of Messiah for the sins of His people. More than 700 years before Jesus was even born, Isaiah provides details of His life and death. The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Luke 13:34). The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:5-9; 2 Corinthians 5:21). The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; 1 Peter 2:23). The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60). The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27).

His resurrection from the dead is also foretold. The clearest and best known of the resurrection prophecies is the one penned by Israel’s King David in Psalm 16:10, also written a millennium before the birth of Jesus: "For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay." (Christ would not be abandoned to Sheol, Hades nor would his body decay)

AND – the last one I’ll mention is the virgin birth. I save it for last because this one verse is the contention point between Christianity and Islam (Who also believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah for the Jews, but will not accept the virgin birth.)

Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

[Dave]

anna said,
Ghosts are sprites that have unfinished business before they can rest.

I am not prepared to comment on Ghost - I am unsure what they are or where they are from - my opinions now would just confuse everyone - but as to the part - before they can rest.You said when you die you are dead and that's all -so where do you think these spirit go to rest? If you argument is that there is nothing - then how can you now talk in terms of something or somewhere?

anna said,
Are you saying the the afterlife is the same as Heaven?

Let's see - how to best answer - the concept of heaven and Hell as presented by Christendom is just to simple.

Absolutely one of the biggest problem I have with christendom (meaning organized christian religion) is that it continually rewrites the OT. Jesus was a Jew. He is suppose to be the fulfillment of the OT. So. why don't christians and Jews see the OT the same?

In Hebrew the word for heaven is a plural word each and every time it is used - plural - meaning more than one. The Jews do NOT have a fire and brimstone Hell of eternal torment. So, why doesn't chtistendom see this way as well? Christ came to fulfill the OT not rewrite it.

Enoch was invited into heaven(s) by God and had a tour. Enoch saw 7 heaven in all - before interacting with God in heavens 8, 9, & 10. - Get that 10 total.If you read the post here you will see that Islam also has 7 heavens, as well as, the Hindus. Even in the NT Paul talks about visiting the 3rd heaven. Theologian explain this away as saying heaven 1 is our breathable atmosphere. heaven two is space, and heaven 3 is just heaven. If this is so - then why did Paul just say heaven - why did he feel the need to specify which heaven?

You see for me Enoch's heavens 8, 9, & 10 equates to a 3 dimensional reality. Just like the one we live in. How else could a man interact with anyone or anything if not in a reality defined by Height, Width, and Length. So, take our 3 dimensional reality + the 7 dimensions of heavenly reality witnessed by Enoch, or repeated over and over in the Koran of Islam, or believed to exist by the Hindus - and you end up with 10 dimensions. Exactly the same as modern String Theory Physics.

It is this constant reference to different localities within the after life that brings me to these concepts. Just look at your example of Ghost. They don't really exist here - but somewhere outside of here - and you say they eventually go on to rest - where is that? Again it breaks down into multiple localities within the afterlife.

One last word about the HELL you refer to. Not one of those heaven witnessed by Enoch looked anything like the Fire and Brimstone Hell from the poem written by Dante in 1308 where we get the notion of Dante's Infernal.

Am I saying there is no punishment - absolutely not - many of the creatures witnessed by Enoch during his travels through those 7 heaven were in dungeons and chained. There is punishment! Eternal - well that is an entirely another discussion.

So, the issue is not between heaven and hell as the only 2 options. The issue is more what we can do now (while we are alive in this reality) to better our position in the next reality.

There - is my position as clear as mud? The nice thing about having these conversations in print is that you can go back and reread sections or paragraphs - and as specific question about specific points. Argue about specific points - or whatever it takes.

[Virginia]

As I have said before I believe in the afterlife because I have witnessed it in my own life with the death of my son and husband. I believe ghosts are people who have died an unexpected death and may not believe they are dead. Therefore they do not move toward the light that we have all heard about.I believe you only have a small amount of time to go toward the light and if you miss that window you get left behind. I made sure my son and husband moved toward the light. Now they both knew they were at the end of their lives so death was expected.

[Dillon]

Virginia,
You said, "I guess I have that idea because we always here about a loving God. To me a loving God should protect us from all evil. I guess I am wrong."

I am not going to agree with your assessment of being wrong. That is not my call and it is too simplistic.

Loving God? What does that mean? Protect us from all evil? In Christian thinking if He did protect us from all evil then He would have to take away our freedom of choice - free will. What is evil anyway? Over the centuries that definition has changed and changed. I am not the preachy type. In fact I disagree with Dave and Richard in many ways. But, I heard a missionary speak years ago about evil and for some reason his message stuck with me.

Have you ever noticed that evil is just live spelled backward. Live / life the hope of continued existence is the hope offered by scripture. The reverse of that is evil, the reverse of continued existence is for your name not to be found in the Book of Life and you are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. Not eternal punishment in torment and hell, but the death of spirit and the end of existence in any realm / heaven / dimension.

Loving God? Well He did create the universe so that you and I have the opportunity to live and breath. That sounds pretty good to me.

[Dave]

Loving God

Virginia said: - I guess I have that idea because we always here about a loving God. To me a loving God should protect us from all evil.

I really find it fascinating that you say you don't believe, yet you keep framing you question like a doubting christian. This concept of a loving God that was preached to you was most likely followed up by - God loves us and only wants the best for us - and 99.99% of the people are going to burn in hell fire for ll eternity. What a load of double talk. Christian's cannot have it both ways.

I am more in tune with the - Universalist movement - who make more out of the scriptural theme of - so all will be saved. Does this mean there is no punishment for those who deserve it? NO! Luke 16 clearly speak of more than one locality with the afterlife - our option now is to do what we can to better that locality before we get there.

As to this point of more than one locality within christian heaven (some at the right hand, some saints, some elect, - leaving the door open for those not in any of those groups) brings me back over and over to the issue of whether we live in a muti-verse - a mutidimensional reality. Once someone accepts the muti-verse mutdimensional concept - how do we explain that 1st dimensional singularity and the very base of all dimensions? That point that contains all points - all data- all knowledge - omniscience.

[Virginia]

I am not sure whether or not I believein God or not. I just do not know and that is why I am always seeking answers. I just watched a show on tv wherein they seem to think we have a gene (called the God gene) that makes us want to believe in God. Was this gene given to us by aliens or by God?