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Post by Dave on May 7, 2012 9:31:36 GMT -5
You and I are well aware we are 3 dimensional in construct.
The Holy Trinity
By definition this reality is a 3 dimensional reality 1D - A single point that contains all points - all data - omniscience 2D - An omnidirectional plane - the matrix / either of reality - omnipresent. 3D - HxWxL - here - us - creation - the ultimate expression of - omnipotence.
Omniscience + omnipresent + omnipotent = Trinity All Knowing Father + Holy Spirit + Creation / Christ = Trinity
John 1 - American Standard Version (ASV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
It could just be this easy - KISS - does it have to be more complex?
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Post by Richard on May 12, 2012 2:23:02 GMT -5
The trinity has always been hard for me to picture in my head.
But you are correct. In a 10 dimensional reality, or even a 3 dimensional reality -- everything - absolutely everything is based / built upon dimensions 1 + 2 = 3
Do you have any imagery to help the ignorant to visualize this concept in other terms. Ice, water, steam -- or -- ??
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Post by Dillon on May 12, 2012 2:47:16 GMT -5
I have a great example ---
Any coin will work - but I like to use a quarter because it is large and easily seen by all at hand.
Make the point that this coin is only 2 dimensional. It has Heads and it has Tails, and it has a side, although, the tiny space occupying the side is negligible for this example. So the coin has 2 side you can interact with - Heads and Tails.
So, the term quarter is actually only physical combination of Heads and Tails. As I look at the change in my hand, or on the table, I can never see an entire quarter, all i can see are the Heads or Tails of quarters. I can never see both sides at the same time to see the entire quarter. It is just side A and side B.
This is like the Holy Trinity
God, the Father - is larger than our experience God the Son - Heads, Christ, creation, physical God in Spirit - Tails, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit
All three always all one and yet individual
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Stella
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Post by Stella on Aug 7, 2012 17:50:09 GMT -5
Arn't you guys talking about something you know nothing about?
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Post by Dave on Aug 8, 2012 10:37:03 GMT -5
Absolutely
However, I / we are not saying - "THIS IS HOW IT IS!"
What I/we are saying is - If you put all the evidence together. Scripture + ghost stories + Jewish understanding of the afterlife + what the NT says about the afterlife + what Islam says about the afterlife + what Hindus say about the afterlife + even what Jesus Himself said about the afterlife + what modern science says about the multiverse we live in ---- and mix it all up and pour it out. The central theme is a mutiverse of 10 Dimansion of space and 1 of time.
Apply this multidimansional model to the Trinity and what emerges? The question is: is what emerges consistant with: Omniscience, Omnipresent, and Onmipotent?
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Stella
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Post by Stella on Aug 10, 2012 11:32:03 GMT -5
I see what you are saying. I don't know if I agree, but I don't know enough to disagree.
You guys are right about one thing for sure. All creation must witness to the Creator.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 17:03:58 GMT -5
This seems a likely place to make comments about something many see as a mystery. What is GOD like. Is God a trinity, whatever that means? Richard raised the idea that all Christian groups view the trinity as GOD expressed in three expressions, GOD as the Father, GOD as a SON on earth, and GOD as the Holy Spirit. So does this mean the Father in the Christ form was praying to the Father in Father form in heaven? Dave considers the Most High as three expressions, the masculine expression as Jesus, the feminine expression as the HS and collective expressions of both as the Father. He uses the formula E=MC2, the E is the Father, the M is the Son and the C2 is the HS. Roman Catholics consider GOD as one body of three persons who are one co-eternal, omnipotent omniscient being. Yet is it hard to find a website that clearly define their view, as it seems to have changed over the years. SDA people view GOD as three personal beings in one Godhead, and make public creed statements suggesting a "GOD the Father, a GOD the Son, and a GOD the HS". My personal view is to think of GOD as a Family of three divine beings, with a Provider (Father), Responder (HS) and a Collector (Jesus) of Love. Some argue that this makes three gods, but it doesn't because love requires a provider and a responder to make love flow functionally, hence the love always flows outwards from the Most High in the Family. Hence we have one flow of love, one source of love and one Family of Divinity. One has to consider in Genesis GOD created many similes we can use to appreciate GOD in our world, such as marriage, gender male and gender female personalities of loving styles, and the compound unity word echad, the image of GOD, the fact Adam was created by Eve was built, hence the feminine human was a genetic clone of the masculine human. So I tried in vain to find a website that explains and details Dave's view, and I can't find any. I also cannot find any view of Richards account of the trinity either. There is no website that explains my own personal account of the GOD either, except my own website called SpiritualSprings.org However in a fair assessment of this topic, I wanted to see how Jews view this thread. jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/a-jewish-view-of-the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/This is a really good article on the Internet written I assume by a Jew? However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: “And when God [Elohim] caused me to wander [literally: “They” caused me to wander] from my father's house.
Genesis 35:7: “There God [Elohim] had revealed himself to him.” [Literally: “They” appeared unto him.]
2 Samuel 7:23: “God [Elohim] went.”" [Literally: “They” went.]
Psalm 58:11: “Surely there is a God [Elohim] who judges.” [Literally: “They” judge.]Not noticed this before. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) appears elsewhere (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3). This singular form could have easily been used consistently, yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead.Interesting point. When God speaks of Himself, He uses the plural pronoun. In Genesis 1:26: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the weight of this passage:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, “And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness,” Moses said, “Master of the universe, why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)?” God answered Moses, “You write and whoever wants to err, let him err.”1The Jewish midrash considers the Genesis "Let us" Out of the Hebrew, we find that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: "Remember now your Creator." [Literally: creators.]
Psalm 149:2: "Let Israel rejoice in their Maker." [Literally: makers.]
Joshua 24:19: "holy God" [Literally: holy Gods.]
Isaiah 54:5: "For your Maker is your husband." [Literally: makers, husbands.]
Never knew this idea also. For instance, in Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one [echad] flesh.” In Ezra 2:64, we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). The use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound unity and not an absolute unity.Interesting point using echad and yaccid. The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion, and will) and is considered divine.Does this statement negate Dave's idea that the HS is just a feminine expression of the Father? So if this is all written in the Hebrew Scriptures, why do conservative Jews reject the notion of plurality, and stick only to a single cardinal one strong authority? If you ask a Hebrew how many members are in a Hebrew family, they would say three, but if you asked the Hebrew how many foundational Lords (adon) are in the family, they would answer one. The Father came to the tent to meet guests, you as the guest had to speak to the Lord of the tent. You can only address the woman of the tent if the Lord of the tent allowed you to address her. In Hebrew the members of the family are considered one flesh (echad). People wrongly view the family has three lords, and this is NOT so. I post this comment here in the hope others will provide website links to others who express different views and can defend their views from the torah teachings. jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/a-jewish-view-of-the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/This study is really a great read for all who want to view this thread fairly. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 4, 2021 6:38:40 GMT -5
D" You claim there are 3 individual and independent gods Rob replies: Three personalities of love, yes. Three independent gods, absolutely not. What part of my words are you finding hard to fathom? My personal view is to think of GOD as a Family of three divine beings, Dave asks" It is the only way love can exist you say Rob replies" My humble opinion from Scripture study of ahab and ahabuh is that love in the Bible, and there are two Hebrew words for love, is love requires relational beings.So you deny that love can be unrequited There must be at least two gods – so love can be reciprocalYou can study my studies of love here spiritualsprings.org/ss-845.htm D" It is the only way Jesus on earth could have spoken to God in heaven R" Not sure what you saying here, but Jesus had to live under the same way humans live in faith under the Most highPlease remain consistent with your argument Mr Flip FlopYou consistently argue – who could Jesus pray to the father if they were the Hebrew cardinal oneFrom your same postRichard raised the idea that all Christian groups view the trinity as GOD expressed in three expressions, GOD as the Father, GOD as a SON on earth, and GOD as the Holy Spirit.
So does this mean the Father in the Christ form was praying to the Father in Father form in heaven?My personal view is to think of GOD as a Family of three divine beings, So you deny that there is only One True Creator So I tried in vain to find a website that explains and details Dave's view, and I can't find any. I also cannot find any view of Richards account of the trinity either.what is the Christian trinityAbout 69,200,000 results (0.88 seconds) A Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Jul 23, 2009 God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”God is God – God is Spirit – God is ChristJoh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Most Christians accept scripture There is no website that explains my own personal account of the GOD either, except my own website called SpiritualSprings.orgBecause you deny scripture and do not support the Christian view You insist on a pantheon of multiple godsHowever in a fair assessment of this topic, I wanted to see how Jews view this thread. jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/a-jewish-view-of-the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/ This is a really good article on the Internet written I assume by a Jew?DUH – Jews for Jesus would be a Messianic JewQuote – “the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism” The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion, and will) and is considered divine. God is God – God is Spirit – God is Christ So if this is all written in the Hebrew Scriptures, why do conservative Jews reject the notion of plurality, and stick only to a single cardinal one strong authority? 1 – your knowledge of Judaism is in error Who has taught you what Jews believe – your SDA church? This what you do – you fail to remain consistent – you just mix a bunch of wives-tails together to make up you impression of Judaism You are an SDA – what if I constantly quote Mormons and JW and call it SDA rheology You would just say – I do not know what I am talking about LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR – ALL MESSANIC JEWS ARE PHARASITICAL – we believe in the spirit and the afterlife – and the Divine Pardonwhy do conservative Jews reject the notion of plurality, - They don’tMale father sits upon the Throne – female shekinah – is the spirit of God that comes among the people youtu.be/uDIuFP5KBCsLearn if you dare If you ask a Hebrew how many members are in a Hebrew family, they would say three, but if you asked the Hebrew how many foundational Lords (adon) are in the family, they would answer one. Earthy family –vrs- God – the One True CreatorSeriously Robert – you cannot tell the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 15:28:08 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
So you dared me to watch the video:-
chanting my father said do not look I hear strange sound, shouting, wailing, no sound in harmony I peeked. Hands towards congregation Sound and look of it Shin hands apart forming a V. The Shekinah No look, The Shekinah comes in to bless the congregation, fatal and injury yourself Spock go home to be married.... lady conduct service... have special Vulcans do I suggested shin hand greetings.... The Shekinah shaped hand. Secret hand shake.
How do you know this babble of sounds wasn't glossolalia?
By their fruits ye shall know them, the torah says.
So you liked the Messanic Jewish link I posted on explaining the three divine Persons of GOD in the Godhead. That happens to be the same theology I follow, but I add to this using the two love words from torah which no theology understands, makes my presentation unique.
So do you have a Messanic Jewish website that explains your view, as three expressions of the same Being, or same person, because what I presented is different to your view?
Do you support what you posted Dave?
"A Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Jul 23, 2009
God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”
I thought you believe the Most High has three expressions of the Most High, one masculine form as Christ and feminine form as HS and the overall collective form as the Most High as both masculine and feminine. This is the single cardinal one Being you present to me.
You cannot post as you did "God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”" that would be polytheism, wouldn't it? That's what I believe.
Quoting your words "Please remain consistent with your argument Mr Flip Flop" I could say the same to you, do you have a website that explains your view? Because I cannot find one.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 4, 2021 20:23:12 GMT -5
How do you know this babble of sounds wasn't glossolalia?Of Course Robert make fun of the Jews and Jewish worship – Rome requires your opinionSo much of the world has to be wrong, denied, or disputed to keep your doctrine intactBy their fruits ye shall know them, the torah says.Now Christianity in its entirety is not valid – the Jews never gave us anything – not Christ – not the promise of the Divinme PardonSo you liked the Messanic Jewish link I posted on explaining the three divine Persons of GOD in the Godhead. That happens to be the same theology I follow, but I add to this using the two love words from torah which no theology understands, makes my presentation unique.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/a-jewish-view-of-the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/“It is an all-too-common assumption that the concept of the Trinity is a purely Christian idea. But the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism and in the Hebrew Scriptures” three-in-one unityGod=God + God=Holy Spirit + God=Christ Only One God – a CARDINAL ONE You do not preach this – don’t pretend that you doDo you support what you posted Dave?If you think me inconsistent or not truthful and straight forward – then move on"A Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Jul 23, 2009 God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”Gee you left out part of the sentence - one God exists asWas that on purpose – just present ½ the fact I thought you believe the Most High has three expressions of the Most High, one masculine form as Christ and feminine form as HS and the overall collective form as the Most High as both masculine and feminine. This is the single cardinal one Being you present to me.You are mocking God – and it is certainly not Christian – or Jewish – to deny the CARDINAL ONE Expression – why do both the Jews and the Christians use this word? Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Psa 33:9 For He spoke, and it came to be. God spoke the WORD – God expressed Himself It is not rocket science – it is only a stumbling block for those who choose to stumble do you have a website that explains your view? Because I cannot find one. what is the Christian trinity About 69,200,000 results (0.88 seconds) A Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Jul 23, 2009 God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons” God is God – God is Spirit – God is ChristJoh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Most Christians accept scripture
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 4:44:47 GMT -5
Oh beg my pardon, sorry to offend, help me out please? D "Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". So this cardinal one BEING has three expressions of the same substance: a father expression , a son expression and a HS expression. Hence one god. Do you term the father expression " a god", and the son expression "a god" and the HS expression "a god"? Obviously not otherwise you would be promoting three gods. Help me to understand your view and the Hebrew words that define your view? The Hebrew word "el" can be correctly viewed as meaning "a god" can it not? Would you agree the term refers to "Cardinally one god"? el shadday "one Shadday" eloah "one Father" elohiym "one divine power" most high el "one Most High" Ex 34:6 YHWH el "Lord as one" Nu 16:22 el elohiym ruwach "one divine powerful medium" etc ------------------------------------------------ D" Most Christians accept scriptureR in reality most Christians do not read Hebrew nor try to evaluate the trinity theory in deeper levels. To most Christians the three in one is a mystery. jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/a-jewish-view-of-the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/ “It is an all-too-common assumption that the concept of the Trinity is a purely Christian idea. But the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism and in the Hebrew Scriptures”COrrect Dave, founded in the torah, not as the idea of cardinally one Being also expressed as three expressions of the same Being. This link I provided to you speaks of the plurality within elohiym, the possibility of three persons in a godhead. This is NOT what you are presenting. I quote from the link I gave you" While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead.
The use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead.
God seems to refer to Himself in the plural, so where does that leave us as we try to understand Him?
While Jewish tradition has commonly rejected the idea of the Trinity, there is no doubt that Judaism portrays a plurality of God’s existence. All the evidence so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on Scriptures alone, we have to say that they affirm God’s unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity. There is room for plurality in the Godhead.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is the word yachid, which is found in many Scripture passages,2 with the emphasis being on the meaning of “only.” If Moses intended to teach God’s absolute oneness instead of as a compound unity, yachid would have been a far more appropriate word.
But echad is used instead. Echad we are taught means compound unity. T he first Elohim is being addressed, and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim.
So, again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The evidence for at least a dual God in the Hebrew Scriptures is clear, but what is Judaism’s response to a triune God?
If the Hebrew Scriptures point to plurality, then how many personalities exist in the Godhead? As we saw above, the names of God are applied to at least two different personalities. Yet, a deeper examination of the Hebrew Scriptures shows three distinct personalities that are considered divine.Notice the presentation uses the term "three distinct personalities" not three expressions of the same divine being. If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Now we come to the issue not discussed, are these three divine persons from the same expression of divinity which your view claims, while my view is these persons of the Godhead are best pictured as a family of divinity. I am not sure what label to use on your view, three persons equally divine emanating from one Being. While I see three person's equally divine as compound unity as we see in an ideal family. It seems from Genesis GOD created the terms man and woman, as well as personalities of loving, marriage and family systems, as well as fellowship on Sabbath. These pictures all stem from Genesis, and give us clues to the image of GOD from which we were made. I do not know of any pictures of your view, that things come from it's own substance as a living creature. Like I asked you before, do you have a website explaining your view, that the three expressions of GOD come from within the Most High? You post " God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons” God is God – God is Spirit – God is ChristDoes not differentiate from both of our views, I also see the Father as elohiym, Jesus as elohiym and the HS as elohiym too. How about explain from Scripture the three expressions exclusively coming out of the Most High? Shalom PS I found this on the www www.gotquestions.org/God-Most-High.htmlWe do this by recognizing Jesus Christ as God Most High who came in the flesh to take the punishment we deserve (John 14:6; 20:28; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Although Yahweh exists as God Most High whether we acknowledge Him or not, we can enjoy Him as God Most High in our own lives when we willingly seek Him (Jeremiah 29:13). I would disagree with this idea, but I suppose you like this view. The texts do not support this authors view. Scripture says my Father and Jesus are echad, compound unity. I would say they are equal in power, but not in rank of respect. we come to the Father via the Son, Joh 14:6; Jesus says, does not suggest Jesus is an expression of the Father. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 5, 2021 5:13:19 GMT -5
www.encounteringislam.org/muslimquestionsQuestions Muslims AskWhy do Christians believe in three Gods? Muslims believe in the “oneness” of God. During Muslim prayers and in their creed Muslims declare that there is no God but God. Many Muslims think that the Trinity means that Christians worship is three Gods: The question is offensive. No one in true Christianity teaches three Gods. No Christian would ask this – There is only One True CreatorRobert calls himself a Christian but follows another faith, a faith in biology without spirit, a faith where the angels don’t even respect God, a faith where satan and God are equals in a divided Kingdom that Jesus Christ said could not stand.carlmedearis.com/2012/01/20-questions-muslims-ask-about-christians/Do Christians really follow Jesus or do they follow their churches, or…?Robert does not follow mainstream Christianity, or scripture he chooses his church as supreme authority and declares that most measurable science and recorded history must be errorWe’ve heard that Christians believe in three Gods. Is that true?Robert and the SDA do evidentlywww.marketfaith.org/2018/01/answering-five-questions-muslims-ask-about-christianity/“We believe that there is only one God. Why do you teach there are three?”Here again we see a common Muslim misconception about historic Christianity. Most Muslims think that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is polytheistic and teaches three gods and not one. Also many have the false concept that the Trinity consists, not of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but of the Father, Son, and Mary. That may be due to the fact that many Muslim’s only exposure to Christianity is what is taught in Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. The are offended by the idea that God has a son (see question 3) and that God has a wife (Mary). Of course, neither Catholics nor Orthodox churches teach that concept of the Trinity. Nonetheless, because of the heavy emphasis in those two traditions on Mary as the “Mother of God,” it is easy to see why Muslims and others in non-Christian religions might think she is believed to be divine. In response to that inquiry, we need immediately to establish the fact that the Bible and Christianity teach there is only one God. They do not teach, and we do not believe, there are three gods. Take the time to carefully explain the doctrine of the Trinity as best you can. Confess that it is not an easy concept to understand or explain, but that the New Testament clearly indicates that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit (not Mary) is God. They are three Persons in One God. Perhaps an illustration may help. You could use the illustration of the three dimensions of height, length, and width. Some explain using the analogy of body, mind, and spirit. Some say a mathematical equation can help: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. (I like this equation: ? + ? + ? = ? [? = infinity].) But keep in mind, no earthly analogy is adequate to explain the Trinity. Only because God is both infinite and eternal can the Trinity be true, and it is beyond our human capability fully to comprehend. There is only one God – the Potential E that existed before creation God (that initial E) fattened Himself into the invisible and visible Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Ancient Jewish kabbalah (commentary) already figured this out – 10 dimensions of space And at the top – a trinity of form – maleness, femaleness, (both subordinate to) The Creator Oh beg my pardon, help me out please?D "Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". So this cardinal one BEING has three expressions of the same substance: a father expression , a son expression and a HS expression. Hence one god.It is not 1/3rd of God = God + 1/3rd is Spirit + 1/3rd of God = Christ God is 100% God The Spirit of God is 100% God God in the form of a man = Christ (God + (Jesus the animal)) Christ is 100% God in form There is only One God - man experience Hm in 3 ways - Man is a 3 dimensional being - and God exist fully in all 3 of those dimenstions God the singularity (1D) God the matrix/ether/medium of all Creation (2D) and God in creatin as the Christ (3D) Like I asked you before, do you have a website explaining your view, that the three expressions of GOD come from within the Most High?google searchwhat is the Christian trinityAbout 69,200,000 results (0.88 seconds) A Trinity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)Trinity doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Jul 23, 2009 God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons” God is God – God is Spirit – God is ChristJoh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Most Christians accept scripture There is only One God - man can experience Him as Spirit or in form (Christ) It is the only Jewish view - and it is the only Christian view If you choose to be outside looking in - go for itThat is what Free Will is all about - choose God or some man-made subversion/deception
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 13:22:01 GMT -5
Dave you, do not supply any website willing to define this 100% Uncaused Caused, that expresses itself in three different ways to mankind.
You say it cannot be defined, but than you have defined it as some 10 dimensional thing, no torah teachings supplied though.
Light can express itself in hundreds of different ways, and still be the same photon like stuff. How different is UV light from green light or from radio light? 100% the same quantum stuff. We call these frequencies in a family. The term family does not have to have father wife and son, as you claim.
Just to be clear, you keep misquoting me all the time, in Hebrew when you married as a sinless pair, you are not considered two beings becoming one in marriage.
I quote from my link I gave you "Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). "
Two sticks become one stick. Likewise two edges become one edge in a double edged sword. Likewise in a sinless marriage, the two lovers becomes two styles of loving in cardinally one being. (not two beings)
Am I clear in how Hebrew is? what don't you understand in my words?
Than you mock saying God has a wife? Again this is a human tradition placed on the Hebrew. The Hebrew word does not mean "wife", it meant "woman" a personality who loving was different.
A lot easier to understand GOD if you view GOD as a family. All the members of the family are considered one being, all divine, but express three personalities of loving.
Love cannot be broken down into a single one entity, the smallest unit for love is family, consisting of three entities.
But you suppose one can love SELF. My answer is no. How many rules did Jesus quote, three or two or one?
Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Jesus quotes two commands, and makes no mention of loving self. Jeff Benner explains why because the Hebrew word "as thyself" is not translated correctly. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as GOD loves you.
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (Again the KJV translates the Hebrew incorrectly)
Le 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as like: I am the LORD. (It's a comparison, love others as GOD loves you)
The point is very serious and valid, love is relational. You think in heaven sinless humans are free to be independent. There is no such thing in heaven as sinless humans being independent. Nobody is independent. You are always dependent upon GOD, and your love flows from God's love flowing through you.
Yet you speak of three independent gods, is just as bad as sinless independent humans in heaven. These ideas are false. God is relational and everything GOD does is relational. Humans exist only as relational beings in God's love, they cannot be ever independent. To do so requires them to miss GOD, and this is defined as a sin.
SELF does not exist in a sinless world, again a notion you have to get out of your head. Self only existed when SIN existed.
Now I explained to you how GOD is viewed as cardinally one flow of love.
Pagans have a family of gods with father, mother and children like gods, eg the Greek view and Roman view. GOD is not like this. The Hebrew word ab means provider, not father as humans understand the term.
Jews once worshiped the queen in heaven. I find no reference to the Most High as a King, nor a Shadday as a Queen, yet Jews seems to view the Most High as some Reigner who reigns as a sovereign over mankind? Perhaps. Yet in Daniel, the Ancient of Days makes His SON a King with earth as His kingdom. So the SON is a king, or a prince who rules a special class of humans who seek his salvation.
Jew find this confusing as the father/son has references to king. If GOD is one as you say why all the huge Hebrew words that say different things, why use shadday, eloah, el and elohiym, as well as YHWH adown and adonay? Why speak of yaccid ben, and eachad in marriage? And finally speak of elohiym as family in Ephesians 3:15?
I have no problem saying the FAMILY POWER is divine as one power, one source of authority, one flow of love.
SDA explain it as three persons of the godhead but one god.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Interesting context is this verse. It doesn't say Jesus was 100% the Father as well, it says the fullness of elohiym dwelled in Jesus.
Explain this Hebrew idea?
Pr 31:10 ¶ Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband (baal) doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
The word here is Master, not husband. Why does the Master trust in the woman? Because her decisions are his decisions, her activities are his activities.
Pr 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
She is NOT independent, she speaks of words flowing via the HS medium that come from the Father. Her words flow from the torah teachings of the SON, who bore witness of the words of the Father. This woman lives a relational life.
Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Our works are relational.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Our salvation is relational in Jesus, who is also relational in the Father.
Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
All things are provided by cardinally one provider, who sits securely in heaven.
Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
If Jesus is an expression of the Father 100%, how come Jesus doesn't know the exact coming of Jesus second coming to earth, only the Father knows?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 6, 2021 6:07:46 GMT -5
Dave you, do not supply any website willing to define this 100% Uncaused Caused, that expresses itself in three different ways to mankind. Actually – I say God expresses Himself to man in two ways – Christ and Spirit God the Father is beyond our comprehension – if any man saw Him that man would dieYou say it cannot be defined, but than you have defined it as some 10 dimensional thing, no torah teachings supplied though. And yet the Jewish Rabbi came up with the 10 seferots long before science uncovered the 10 dimensions Do you get that? A true student of the Torah is led to the depths of modern science
Light can express itself in hundreds of different ways, and still be the same photon like stuff. How different is UV light from green light or from radio light? 100% the same quantum stuff. We call these frequencies in a family. The term family does not have to have father wife and son, as you claim. Is this like a family or automobiles or a species of animalI quote from my link I gave you "Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). "
Two sticks become one stick. Likewise two edges become one edge in a double edged sword. Likewise in a sinless marriage, the two lovers becomes two styles of loving in cardinally one being. (not two beings)
Am I clear in how Hebrew is? what don't you understand in my words?This is a fine example of corporeal matters within creation – is it a nice metaphor The two sticks become on in spirit – there are still two physical sticks Man and wife become one in spirit – but they remain two individuals This is a fine example of corporeal matters within creation God is not biology – God is not matter – why do you treat Him as such Than you mock saying God has a wife? I WILL EXPOSE YOU FOR WHO YOU AREThis was a quote from a Christian apologetics web-site speaking to a Muslim audience www.marketfaith.org/2018/01/answering-five-questions-muslims-ask-about-christianity/“We believe that there is only one God. Why do you teach there are three?” Do I mock saying God has a wife? Please try to keep you arguments based in facts Is presenting miss-information when discussing the Lord really helpful to anyone What point did you make with me? 1- Did you cause me great embarrassment of my error? 2- Or did you just prove that you are groping for anything negative to any argument you can in an effort to defend your doctrine Which approach is academic and honest? A lot easier to understand GOD if you view GOD as a family. All the members of the family are considered one being, all divine, but express three personalities of loving.If you argued a family of 1 – you might get more respectBut you argue a family of 3 or more that are independent beings – apart from one aother as inb different individuals But you cannot argue a family of 1 – if you deny that Christ is actually God incarnateLove cannot be broken down into a single one entity, the smallest unit for love is family, consisting of three entities. But you suppose one can love SELF. My answer is no. How many rules did Jesus quote, three or two or one? Jesus quotes two commands, and makes no mention of loving self. Jeff Benner explains why because the Hebrew word "as thyself" is not translated correctly. The point is very serious and valid, love is relational. I WILL EXPOSE YOU FOR WHO YOU AREYou say love can exist on it's own.YES Robert – a lot of love is unrequited My personal view is to think of GOD as a Family of three divine beings, Dave asks" It is the only way love can exist you say Rob replies" My humble opinion from Scripture study of ahab and ahabuh is that love in the Bible, and there are two Hebrew words for love, is love requires relational beings.So you deny that love can be unrequited There must be at least two gods – so love can be reciprocal First I say – love is unrequitedThen you quote me saying – “ But you suppose one can love SELF.”Do you get this authority from Don Patton? The Muslims believe it is perfectly OK to lie and deceive to advance their cause I WILL EXPOSE YOU FOR WHO YOU AREIs presenting miss-information when discussing the Lord really helpful to anyone What point did you make with me? 1- Did you cause me great embarrassment of my error? 2- Or did you just prove that you are groping for anything negative to any argument you can in an effort to defend your doctrine Which approach is academic and honest? D" You claim there are 3 individual and independent gods Rob replies: Three personalities of love, yes. Three independent gods, absolutely not. What part of my words are you finding hard to fathom? GEE -= I guess that would be your denial that Jesus Christ was God incarnate How can Jesus pray to God – you have quested this how many times? Pagans have a family of gods And you argue the sameJews once worshiped the queen in heaven. I find no reference to the Most High as a King, nor a Shadday as a Queen, yet Jews seems to view the Most High as some Reigner who reigns as a sovereign over mankind? Perhaps.EXCUSE ME – your Torah ignorance is showingThe Queen of Haven would be the Christian God of Easter – Ishtar – the wife of Nimrod and the mother of Tammuz YES – in the days of the ahl – some Jew worshiped a god that was born on Dec 25 Ezk 8 defines this worship as the abomination – and the sacrificial animal was a pig And this is why Christians celebrate Easter Sunday with a ham dinner instead of celebrating Passover I have no problem saying the FAMILY POWER is divine as one power, one source of authority, one flow of love.Then you agree – Jesus Christ is/was God on earth Then you agree – the Holy Spirit is just God’s Spirit Two expression of the Father creatorGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The Father Creator ‘fattened Himself’ into invisible ‘the Holy Spirit is just God’s Spirit’ and ‘Jesus Christ is/was God on earth’ SDA explain it as three persons of the godhead but one god.And you question how Jesus could be God on earth You ask – how could god on earth talk to go in heaven if they are 1 And now you ask - If Jesus is an expression of the Father 100%, how come Jesus doesn't know the exact coming of Jesus second coming to earth, only the Father knows? So how do the SDA explain it as three persons of the godhead but one god.Which theology do you accept?God is one Trinity -or- there are 3 gods that are independent from one another
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 14:15:45 GMT -5
D"This is a fine example of corporeal matters within creation – is it a nice metaphor The two sticks become on in spirit – there are still two physical sticks Man and wife become one in spirit – but they remain two individuals This is a fine example of corporeal matters within creation God is not biology – God is not matter – why do you treat Him as such
Rob asks" Why do you negate the literal meaning of echad. It is Hebrew, don't mess with the Hebrew, oh it is a nice metaphor, the Hebrew doesn't really mean that?
Yes it does, read Jeff Benner some more. Hebrew thinking is different to Greek thinking.
You are Greek. I am Hebrew. Our thinking is different.
When the Hebrew uses the term echad it means compound unity. The two sticks become one stick. The trillions of cells in our body become one system of being, they all work as one cell, they all talk to each other, they all have brains in each organ, they function as one because they are not separated. It's the way echad works.
D"What point did you make with me? 1- Did you cause me great embarrassment of my error? 2- Or did you just prove that you are groping for anything negative to any argument you can in an effort to defend your doctrine
Which approach is academic and honest?
R" I read your link on Muslims. Hmm? 1 I do not like you have error 2 I was not defending a particular doctrine 3 I was defending the Hebrew word which means woman, not wife. The added meaning of wife can be assumed by context alone.
You make different approaches to the Hebrew than me... like echad for insistence
It's a metaphor to you, not two sticks becoming one stick.
To me, the echad says what it says... the two become one.
D" If you argued a family of 1 – you might get more respect R Hmm? You have trouble with echad.... it's says the three become one. Jesus said my Father and I are echad... the two become one.
D" you deny that Christ is actually God incarnate R" I do not deny Jesus was the Father embedded fully as divinity, the two become one, echad remember?
D"First I say – love is unrequited
R" What is the definition of unrequited love? Put simply, unrequited love is love that is felt by one person toward another that is not reciprocated by that person. The object of the love may or may not be aware of their admirer’s feelings toward them. You love someone – at least, you think you do.
R" If GOD so loved the world while we were missing, and we have not responded to that love, than surely a provider can provide before the reponder has responded. How else does love function first except by providing first.
Take the anode, is it not ready to flow, charged and primed to love electrically. But it does not flow to the responder because the circuit is not completed.
I am not sure what your saying or asking Dave, you speak in riddles?
D" Is presenting miss-information when discussing the Lord really helpful to anyone What point did you make with me? R" I am simply presenting that Jesus did not quote from the torah than one can love self. A provider cannot respond to his providing by responding. I would call this notion an internal battery self short circuit. It happens in our world of sin, but not in a sinless world. The provider is primed and providing every day, awaiting for his creatures to respond. The Father would not get joy responding to his own love of providing. God is relational not solitary. No man is an island. We get bored being on your own. Get the idea Dave?
D" Pagans have a family of gods And you argue the same R" No I don't. Pagan have sin damaged notions of family Sin damaged notions of family are independent beings, they do as they like.
Hebrew has a sinless ideal of family functions. My Father and I are echad Jesus said. One. They do in harmony. Not some metaphor as you claim. They are ONE. Cardinally one. echad. Compound unity, from the website Jews for Jesus, remember?
D"Then you agree – Jesus Christ is/was God on earth Then you agree – the Holy Spirit is just God’s Spirit Two expression of the Father creator Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The Father Creator ‘fattened Himself’ into invisible ‘the Holy Spirit is just God’s Spirit’ and ‘Jesus Christ is/was God on earth’
R" Pushing an idea still Dave? Hmm?
Gen 1:1 does not say the Father fattened himself.
It says GOD created heaven and earth.
Sure I agree Jesus was GOD on earth, the two are echad, one.
D"Which theology do you accept? God is one Trinity -or- there are 3 gods that are independent from one another
R" neither
trinity is not a hebrew term 3 independent gods is pagan
elohiym power is a flow of love from the Father only, as the word means. Other members also are elohiym as well. Jews for Jesus state their is plurality in this word elohiym.
I see elohiym as a family of love, relational personalities of love, that function as one. This is what echad means, not some metaphor idea, but the three personalities of love are one.
SHalom
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