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Post by Dave on Nov 12, 2022 11:11:53 GMT -5
D"ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING When a man sins – he is committing spiritual suicide – his soul/spirit is on its way to the Lake of Fire When a man sins he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself R" Now who is playing word games? Dave writes "When a man "misses" he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himselfD" R" study H7843 'destroyer' 136 verses in OT torah Pr 6:32 [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul. {understanding: Heb. heart}
When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD) EVIDENTLY YOU ARE PLAYING WORD GAMES-------------------- Rp" The word destroyer is in the context of creating earth: Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When Jesus-YHWH created the creation for earth, "I" was there also. D" ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING R" How can this be your teaching ? Rev 12:1-9 = Gen 1:1-4 The Beast appeared alongside of creation = chaos and darkness (ignorance)you follow the Jews who say the destroyer is some angel? Whereas this verse is saying the destroyer is a MEDIUM, a something administrated by the Father WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CHERUB SATAN GOD THAT OPPOSES GOD IN HEAVEN?--------------------------- D"TO - whatever she gave birth = Entropy = temporary = here today gone tomorrow – decay – spoilage It is a by-product of / inherent to physicality It is one of God’s basic Laws of Nature R" Here is your Gnostic teaching speaking falsely about the MEDIUM. A medium cannot create on her own without her consort. Not possible. Mediums do not create, they are "somethings" that "carry the somethings", like space carrying light, like water carrying a sun beam, like air carrying sound waves. God is NOT matter The Holy Spirit is NOT matter The HOLY SPIRIT is the SPIRIT OF GOD Everything came from the WOMB of creation Everything came through the SPIRIT OF GOD Nothing exist that was NOT made by GOD THERE IS NO SECOND CREATOR – THERE IS ONLY ONR TRUE GOD
D"TO - whatever she gave birth = Entropy R" The HS cannot give birth to entropy.... what a contradiction of terms... WHY DO YOU DENY SCRIPTUREIsa 45:5 I am Adonai—there is no other. Besides Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known Me, Isa 45:6 so they may know, from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. I am Adonai—there is no other. Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. And these words SELF are born in us, they become epi-genetic propensities. Ps 7:14SELF – SELFISHNESS – self-preservation and the survival of the species = (yester ra) You absolutely deny this scripture as a man- made invented concept----------------------- D"The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE OPPOSER OF GOD R" talk about word games Dave. What the difference between accusing and opposing? nothing. ABSOLUTEY NOTHING – only you stumble over words – just to be derogatory THE BEAST = "The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE ACCUSER OF GOD--------------------------------------- D"ABSOLUTELY MY TEACHING The HS is the breath of God – the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people God spoke the word – and the breath of God carried the word throughout the distance – and the word became flesh... R" Not so Dave, you contradict yourself. You deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – NOT a Judeo-Christian teaching Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. You deny the feminine aspect of God – you have a male only Catholic theologyD"NOW YOU SUGGEST THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE BEAST OF REVELATIONYou suggest that The Spirit of God is the Beast of Revelation You suggest that the Shekinah (the female aspect of God) is the Beast of Revelation YOU ARE SICKYou deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God– NOT a Judeo-Christian teaching Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. You deny the feminine aspect of God – you have a male only Catholic theology------------------------------------- D" THANK YOU FOR YOUR VALIDATION So – you admit it – you violate the language, grammar, synyax, and parallelism to keep your cherub a separate being with its own theology R" you are weird Dave. You quote the subjects of the verse, not the similes. You wanted a simile that becomes greater than the subjects of the verse. But you quote the subjects. And WHOM is the simile about that is greater than the subjects in this verse? Jesus is, DUH. Are you saying that Jesus is NOT a simile of the lamb, NOT a simile of the ox, NOT a simile of the tree? and NOT a simile of the fruits ? REPEAT – the simile of Ezk 28 is all about man – the King of Tyre – the subject You are teaching that the cherub is the subject – it all about the simile and your satan comes alive as a new and different god opposing (Accusing) God---------------------------------------- D" - First your were frustrated that scripture does not support your teaching Dave quotes RObert saying" Dec 28, 2019 at 8:33am robertt said: All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, R" I was frustrated because of your twisting contexts of the verse. LET’S GO – REVISIT EVERY VERSE – PROVE YOUR THEOLOGYI give you TODAY one problemNu 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the "messenger of " LORD stood in the way as an OPPOSER against Balaam (on the ass on the road). Num 22:22 (TLV) But the anger of God burned because he was going. The angel of Adonai stood in the road to oppose him—he was riding on his donkey and two of his servants were with him— Num 22:22 (KJV) And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. Num 22:22 and the anger of God burneth because he is going, and a messenger of Jehovah stationeth himself in the way for an adversary to him, and he is riding on his ass, and two of his servants are with him, Question" Why is JESUS-YHWH, a messenger for His Father, opposing Balaam on the road?1- Jesus was NOT even born yet 2- Christ is GOD – Christ is not an angel 3- an angel OF THE LORD – opposed Balaam 4- The angel of the Lord was NOT opposing God – was NOT accusing God 5- The angel of the Lord was in the service of the LordQuestion" Why is a messenger of the Lord, opposing Balaam on the road? ANSWER – TO FACILITATE GOD’S WILL ON EARTH – TO FACILITATE GOD’S PLANDoes Jesus oppose humans for humans sake? or does Jesus oppose sinning in the humans? NOW you teach that Jesus Christ opposes man Now you teach that Jesus Christ is our satan SO DISRESPECTFUL – DOES NOT DESERVE A RESPONSEWhy do I say "satan" here is to "oppose" rather than to be an "adversary " ? Hence, "oppose/opposer" not the meaning of opponent/adversary. DUH – and double DUH – FINALLY YOU ADMIT YOUR OWN WORD GAMEZec 3:1 - Question" WHAT is the OPPOSER opposing in this verse? BEING HEAVEN’S PROSECUTOR - FINALLY YOU ADMIT YOUR OWN WORD GAMEBecause He is a prosecutor? This is NOT a court room scene, but a temple scene, with a high priest. IT IS A JUDGMENT SCENE – --------------------------- D"But when I asked you about the times God opposes man - is God your satan or opposing Himself You have NEVER given an answer R" You have to stop making "OPPOSE/OPPOSER into "satan" it simply is a word that means a function to block the flow of something. I do not like how Christians make HaSatan into a word meaning on it's own. It simply means a CHERUB who opposes the flow. Just as GOD also opposes the flow. YOUR JUSTIFICATION = ANYONE OPPOSING MAN IS OPPOSING GODD"But when I asked you about the times God opposes man - is God your satan or opposing Himself You have NEVER given an answerYOUR THEOLOGY IS INCOMPLETE UNABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS----------------------------------------- DP" D"Did your cherub sin from the beginning – or was he perfect in all his ways from the beginning RP" He was both. D" HOW IS THIS NOT A CONTRADICTION? R" Explain please. D"There is a verse that agrees with this, Ezekiel 28, the cherub that sinned. 1Jo3:8 says the Beast sinned against the entirety at the moment of creation Ezk 28 says the King of Tyre (man) was perfect from the beginning You peach a contradictionEze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, R" Why do you stop there? Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. You intentionally leave out a change in the cherub.What change – 1 John 3:8 – the devil was FROM THE BEGINNING But you deny this and say he was perfect first then changed You preach a contradiction
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. God finally showed me a verse Dave cannot answer.The Hypostasis of the ArchonsOpening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.D"When he said this, he sinned against the entirety Robert does not understand how the Beast could sin against stars, plants, rocks, and treesR" You ignore the Gnostic teachings that say you archon sinned. You deny your own teachings. sinned against the entirety - ENTROPY - spoilage – decay – temporary – here today gone tomorrow Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. ALL GOD’S WILL – ALL GOD’S PLAN – a basic Law of God’s Nature
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2022 16:04:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave RP" Dave writes "When a man "misses" he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself D"EVIDENTLY YOU ARE PLAYING WORD GAMES R" You refuse to answer your post. Instead you mock my posts and completely change the theme.
D"God is NOT matter R" correct.
D"The Holy Spirit is NOT matter R" Not correct/ not so simple.
Ruwach is commonly translated as wind. Wind is composed of matter, but is technically not matter, but made observable by matter. The RUWACH is a MEDIUM. Mediums are made observable by matter.
The divine being administrating this MEDIUM is the SHADDAY, who is NOT made of matter.
You seem not to have a Shadday in your view, who is the divine being of the medium.
D"Nothing exist that was NOT made by GOD R" In your view, this means GOD also creates sin, and sinning creatures that do not technically sin, because they do not have free will. You view is weird.
D"THERE IS NO SECOND CREATOR R" You state this, because you do not like change. CHANGE is not allowed in your view.
In my view, all things are perfect and sinless, but GOD also allows creatures to reason, thus things can change in that creature. Change does not require a second creation, it's already a part of the design in the first creation.
D"Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. R" Darkness is a SIMILE of SIN. Where does SIN come from? It's created by GOD. WHY? Because darkness and thus SIN are NOT allowed to normally exist in God's perfect sinless world. But Dave in his view, has the PISTIS creating darkness for a sinless, NON-SINNING world, is entirely against the torah, and therefore not Scripture, come entirely as a new doctrine from Gnostic sources only.
Dave is no longer supporting Scripture, but some other authority. -----------------
D"SELF – SELFISHNESS – self-preservation and the survival of the species = (yester ra) You absolutely deny this scripture as a man- made invented concept R" Another example of Dave stubborness sticking to Jewish inventions and traditions, saying humans have within them from birth "yester ra" a concept not found in Scripture, but completely based on only 2 verses, used out of context by Jews.
However "aven" is a Hebrew word, that all humans are born with, it means in English "propensity" and all humans are born with this "Aven" that means genetic seed. There are dozens of verses that use this Hebrew word, including verses that speak of born, and seed, and how the propensity can become evil if used wrongly.
BUt as for the term "yester Ra", it does not exist in Scripture like that, it is a invented man made term Jews have invented by their traditons.
Dave is no longer supporting Scripture, but some other authority. -------------------
D"THE BEAST = "The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE ACCUSER OF GOD R" I see. Dave didn't comment on quotes that oppose his view, coming from Messanic Jews
"Rev. 12:1-4 The woman referred to in these passages is Israel. Note: the twelve stars is a metaphor for the twelve tribes. The child (compare with Isaiah 66:7 and Ps. 2) being delivered is the Messiah. V. 4 refer to Hasatan (the Dragon) who was ready to devour her son (Yahshua) when he was born, but failed. Yahshua the second Adam defeated hasatan and legally won back humanity"
The SHEDIM was wanting to destroy the child as it was born. Yahshua the second Adam defeats hasatan....
Both of these sentences suggest to me the SHEDIM is also directly opposing GOD. But Dave fails to comment on Rabbi Davis passage. -------------------
D"You deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – NOT a Judeo-Christian teaching Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. You deny the feminine aspect of God – you have a male only Catholic theology R" Yet another example how Dave cannot read or follow one's reasoning, so you twist and post your own view, even when I was not talking about that at all.
Dave wrote , I quote " The HS is the breath of God – the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people God spoke the word – and the breath of God carried the word throughout the distance – and the word became flesh..."
R" Not so Dave, you contradict yourself. Because your PISTIS creates without her consort, yet here you write "the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people" are totally TWO different statements.
NOT a single comment from you. NOTHING. Just a post about mocking me, you change theme.
You didn't even read what I posted. --------------------
RP" Are you saying that Jesus is NOT a simile of the lamb, NOT a simile of the ox, NOT a simile of the tree? and NOT a simile of the fruits ? Rob notes, NOT a single comment from you. NOTHING. Just a post about mocking me, you change theme.
You didn't even read what I posted.
Dave posts this dribble"
REPEAT – the simile of Ezk 28 is all about man – the King of Tyre – the subject You are teaching that the cherub is the subject – it all about the simile and your satan comes alive as a new and different god opposing (Accusing) God
R" I was showing you goofed because the verses here speak of subjects "lamb" "ox" "tree" and "fruit" but the "SIMILE" of the subjects is more important than the subjects.
But Dave does not admit he goofed, only posts his dribble that I am different seeing poetry similes than he is. Again another example I cannot discuss anything with you Dave. Can't you defend your own logic?
And when you goof you do not even admit it. -----------------------
Rp" Question" Why is JESUS-YHWH, a messenger for His Father, opposing Balaam on the road? D" 1- Jesus was NOT even born yet 2- Christ is GOD – Christ is not an angel 3- an angel OF THE LORD – opposed Balaam 4- The angel of the Lord was NOT opposing God – was NOT accusing God 5- The angel of the Lord was in the service of the Lord R" so much weird stuff you follow
1) so you say Jesus never pre-existed? 2) You say this YHWH is a Father YHWH, so how can it be also a messenger?
Why do you suppose "malak" means "cherub" when it means "messenger", so the YHWH cannot be the Father, it has to be a Father's messenger.
3) Not angel, assumed the word "OF" is implied. It's a Hebrew construct two words side by side "malak" "YHWH" , and it means "messenger-YHWH" The Father sends a messenger to Balaam.
Not an cherub or angel. I quote a Messanic Jew, who agree with my assessment of this kind of Hebrew
"This leaves the question moot. You may have noticed that many times LORD is written in capital letters. This indicates YHVH; why not just write YHVH. When it is not capitalized, it is Adonai or Elohim. G-d is sometimes YHVH, Elohim or Adonai. In the English, there is no way to determine which. We might conclude that G-d purposely left out these pronouns because the Angel was a theophany, or the pre-incarnate Yahshua. Nevertheless, the translators included them even though they are not in the manuscript. Unfortunately, translators have included words in the English Bible that have led to false doctrines. That is why it is important to know Hebrew and Koine Greek to fully understand the Bible. Rabbi Davis (R. Milchamah b. David)"
SO yes there is a pre-incarnate Yahshua. Jesus did pre-exist, not in humanity DUH.
Dave splits this divine being into two, the biological and the Father expression.
So you deny that a SON really existed with the Father. You have no dual godhead. You deny that Jewish professor quote I posted long ago too.
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D"NOW you teach that Jesus Christ opposes man Now you teach that Jesus Christ is our satan SO DISRESPECTFUL – DOES NOT DESERVE A RESPONSE R" I didn't say that did I? Can't you read sentences? Obviously NOT.
The word "satan" does not mean "Satan" it means either "Adversary" or "oppose"
It cannot mean "adversary" because the messenger on the road is not functioning as an adversary against the ass on the road. But more functioning as an opposer, opposing the movement of the ass on the road. DO you understand this? Or are you going to ignore my sentences again?
satan comes with verb and noun forms, the word adversary cannot fit both verb and noun forms, but the word "oppose/opposer" can fit all verses.
And adversary is a word game anyway, adversary do oppose you as an opponent. D"DUH – and double DUH – FINALLY YOU ADMIT YOUR OWN WORD GAME R" No I admit I struggle with KJV bias.
I quote Rabbi Davis
"Unfortunately, translators have included words in the English Bible that have led to false doctrines. That is why it is important to know Hebrew and Koine Greek to fully understand the Bible. Rabbi Davis (R. Milchamah b. David)"
So the way I investigate Hebrew is fine according to Rabbi Davis.
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Rp" Because He is a prosecutor? This is NOT a court room scene, but a temple scene, with a high priest. D" IT IS A JUDGMENT SCENE R "Since when does judging somebody always require a formal court room judgment scene?
You twist and flip flop, notice what you are saying....
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
So the messenger of YHWH is functioning as a prosecutor against the ass? you are weird and funny.
Come on Dave get real. Stop making words mean one thing in one verse and something else in another verse, you support polysemy. Obviously the word "satan" cannot mean "prosecutor", the ass saw the OPPOSER opposing the road, blocking the forward movement, so the ass walked off the road. This one verse of context, changes all meanings of "satan" is all the other contexts, because in any language, word meanings remain the same, they do not change. Even words of multiple meanings do not change meanings, if they depend upon context, they remain faithful to the context. But Dave changes the meanings of words all the time, you play word games all the time. And you are a scholar translator. Is this a common things translators do?
SO Greek word never has a single basic meaning? That never changes when in a sentence? Maybe the sentence causes a slight nuance in meaning, but not a completely different word meaning? COme on Dave, get real.
Is there a formal court scene judgement in the Scritpure, with a lawyer, attorney, witness and a prosecutor? Not a single passage anywhere in Scripture. But sure GOD does judge humans, since when does judging somebody also require a prosecutor?
Another invented Jewish invention Dave?
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D"YOUR JUSTIFICATION = ANYONE OPPOSING MAN IS OPPOSING GOD R" you are weird.
You have sinning creatures that do not really sin. Sinning angels that do not sin either.
It's OK to be sinning as a creature if the Lord God created you that way. Really Dave. you change Scripture , play word games. --------------
Rp"You intentionally leave out a change in the cherub. D" What change – 1 John 3:8 – the devil was FROM THE BEGINNING R" OH I see, the Shedim was sinning from it's creation.
No scripture mentions shedim created as shedim. NONE. Shedim is a term, a function, not a creature to begin with.
The word means "SHAD" beast, or "milk" . Ezekiel speaks of a cherub that was once sinless but later because a sinning cherub.
What would this change be described as?
Where does "true milk" come from? The HS/Medium?womb of GOD
Where does "false milk" come from? From missing God, a term meaning to sin, where the creature is opposing the flow of milk from God, thus wanting to drink of it's own milk, which the Scriptures term "SHAD or Shedim". But Dave looks the the verse 1 John 3:8 and says NO the devil was sinning from it's beginning.
Does the word beginning imply this? No
Does the word shedim imply this? No, because a shedim is not created as shedim in Scripture anywhere.
Nor is a human created as a sinning humans anywhere in Scripture either.
Humans become sinning humans, hence termed sinners or missing.
Likewise the creatures that once drunk true milk from God now oppose this true milk, want to drink their own milk, and thus are missing out of the flow of God's milk, instead drink their own milk, are termed shedim. What is milk a SIMILE of ? The torah, the word that exists from eternity from which all creature drink from. Including shedim, but they refuse, hence are sinning, missing, because they oppose the true milk of GOD, and wish to drink their own milk.
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D"Robert does not understand how the Beast could sin against stars, plants, rocks, and trees R" Of course I can't because Dave never writes a discussion.
D"sinned against the entirety - ENTROPY - spoilage – decay – temporary – here today gone tomorrow Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. R" Wrong again, it does not say a brand new earth, but a renewed earth. YOu are a Greek scholar. Start reading the words correctly. The earth is restored to exactly as it was before SIN started.
SO your byproduct entropy thing is bogus, because it does not come back in the renewed earth does it? So must have come from sinning later? DUH, you deny your own understanding of Greek words.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 13, 2022 4:01:27 GMT -5
RP" Dave writes "When a man "misses" he is NOT opposing God – he is disobeying God – and opposing himself D"EVIDENTLY YOU ARE PLAYING WORD GAMES R" You refuse to answer your post. Instead you mock my posts and completely change the theme. WHAT – I agreed with youD" R" study H7843 'destroyer' 136 verses in OT torah Pr 6:32 [But] whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] doeth it destroyeth his own soul. {understanding: Heb. heart}
When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD) Do you mean what you say – or do you just argue to corrupt and tear down?--------------------------- D"God is NOT matter R" correct. D"The Holy Spirit is NOT matter R" Not correct/ not so simple. You deny the Spirit – you deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God
You seem not to have a Shadday in your view, who is the divine being of the medium. Who cares about your word games You deny the Spirit – you deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God
D"Nothing exist that was NOT made by GOD R" In your view, this means GOD also creates sin, God created the option to sin in Gen 2:17 when he gave Adam the choice But sin entered the world through Eve (the feminine)
R" In your view, this means GOD also creates sinning creatures Correct – God made manR" In your view, this means GOD also creates sinning creatures that do not technically sin, because they do not have free will. Almost – technically they are 100% selfish (yester ra) - they abuse man – they are our real struggle – Eph 6:12 Gen 6:1-4 is the story of a group of them that sinned by reproducing out of their kind (yester ra) the COMPULSION to – go forth be fruitful and multiply And this group of ‘sinning angels’ are locked away awaiting to be released again in Rev 9------------------------------ D"Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. R" Darkness is a SIMILE of SIN. IF – you say what happened in Gen 1:2 – choshek = SIN Then – all your sinning angels are locked away from mankind AND – God called choshek / sin TOV – Gen 1:31 IF - you say what happened in Gen 1:2 is a SIN and the satans and devils remain Then God is wrong – he said His creation was tov Gen 1:31 And Jude 1:6 + 2 Peter 2:4 are also wrong – because they say the ‘sinning angels’ are locked away You claim to be the Hebrew word expert IS - H2822 - חֹשֶׁךְ - chôshek – From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity. THE SAME AS - H2398 – חָטָא - châṭâ' - A primitive root; properly to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn: - bear the blame, cleanse, commit [sin], by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend (-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin (-ful, -ness), trespassive IF – Gen 1:2 = SIN – why does God call it tov----------------- R” And these words SELF are born in us, they become epi-genetic propensities. Ps 7:14D” SELF – SELFISHNESS – self-preservation and the survival of the species = (yester ra) You absolutely deny this scripture as a man- made invented concept R" Another example of Dave stubborness sticking to Jewish inventions and traditions, saying humans have within them from birth "yester ra" a concept not found in Scripture, However "aven" is a Hebrew word, Why do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / avenGen 1:28 God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, fill the land, and conquer it. Rule over the fish of the sea, the flying creatures of the sky, and over every animal that crawls on the land.” BUt as for the term "yester Ra", it does not exist in Scripture like that, it is a invented man made term Jews have invented by their traditons. Why do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / aven------------------- D"THE BEAST = "The accuser of our brothers and sisters – NOT THE ACCUSER OF GOD R" I see. Dave didn't comment on quotes that oppose his view, coming from Messanic Jews "Rev. 12:1-4 The SHEDIM was wanting to destroy the child as it was born. Both of these sentences suggest to me the SHEDIM is also directly opposing GOD. But Dave fails to comment on Rabbi Davis passage. Dave did respond ------------------- D"You deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – NOT a Judeo-Christian teaching Gen 1:27 God created humankind in His image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them. You deny the feminine aspect of God – you have a male only Catholic theology R" Yet another example how Dave cannot read or follow one's reasoning, so you twist and post your own view, even when I was not talking about that at all. R" Not so Dave, you contradict yourself. Because your PISTIS creates without her consort, yet here you write "the Spirit of God – God at a distance – the Shekinah, the female aspect of God that comes among the people" are totally TWO different statements. NOT a single comment from you. NOTHING. Just a post about mocking me, you change theme. You didn't even read what I posted. YES I read you post
ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS PROVE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HEBREW and JEWISH IDIOMS Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you. Some things are from the Right Hand – male – Christ – the Hand of instruction and salvation Some things are from the Left Hand – feminine – The Holy Spirit – the Hand of mystery and judgment IT SEEMS TO BE TOO COMPLICATED FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND------------------- RP" Are you saying that Jesus is NOT a simile of the lamb, NOT a simile of the ox, NOT a simile of the tree? and NOT a simile of the fruits ? Rob notes, NOT a single comment from you. NOTHING. Just a post about mocking me, you change theme. NO I am saying the Lamb is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the ox is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the tree is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the fruit is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying that the cherun is a simile of the King of TyreDave posts this dribble" REPEAT – the simile of Ezk 28 is all about man – the King of Tyre – the subject You are teaching that the cherub is the subject – it all about the simile and your satan comes alive as a new and different god opposing (Accusing) GodR" I was showing you goofed because the verses here speak of subjects "lamb" "ox" "tree" and "fruit" but the "SIMILE" of the subjects is more important than the subjects. Nothing is more important than the real subject – Jesus ChristNone of the - "lamb" "ox" "tree" and "fruit" - became an independent being different then its subject----------------------- Rp" Question" Why is JESUS-YHWH, a messenger for His Father, opposing Balaam on the road? D" 1- Jesus was NOT even born yet 2- Christ is GOD – Christ is not an angel 3- an angel OF THE LORD – opposed Balaam 4- The angel of the Lord was NOT opposing God – was NOT accusing God 5- The angel of the Lord was in the service of the Lord R" so much weird stuff you follow 1) so you say Jesus never pre-existed? – Christ pre-existed – Mortal Jesus was born of Mortal Mary in 6-4BC
2) You say this YHWH is a Father YHWH, so how can it be also a messenger? Easy – Trinity – God = Christ = Holy Spirit God = Christ – the male image of God God = The Holy Spirit – the feminine Spirit of God
3) Not angel, assumed the word "OF" is implied. It's a Hebrew construct two words side by side "malak" "YHWH" , and it means "messenger-YHWH" The Father sends a messenger to Balaam. YOUR CLAIM THAT CHRIST IS JUST AN ANGEL IS REJECTEDI quote a Messanic Jew, who agree with my assessment of this kind of Hebrew SO yes there is a pre-incarnate Yahshua. Jesus did pre-exist, not in humanity DUH. Correct NOT IN HUMANITY – Christ – the Creator God Dave splits this divine being into two, the biological and the Father expression. YEP – Jesus Christ was 100% biology just like you and me +100% Christ – God incarnate---------------- Rp" Because He is a prosecutor? This is NOT a court room scene, but a temple scene, with a high priest. D" IT IS A JUDGMENT SCENE R "Since when does judging somebody always require a formal court room judgment scene? Judgment always is a judgment scene – no matter where it takes placeNu 22:22 - So the messenger of YHWH is functioning as a prosecutor against the ass? you are weird and funny. Is Num 22 a judgment scene Mr serious?---------------- D"YOUR JUSTIFICATION = ANYONE OPPOSING MAN IS OPPOSING GOD R" you are weird. ARE YOU DENYING YOUR OWN TEACHING?--------------------------- It's OK to be sinning as a creature if the Lord God created you that way. Really Dave. you change Scripture , play word games. Was if OK? – NO – Jude 1:6 + 2 Pet 2:4 + Enoch those sinning angels are all locked away-------------- D"Robert does not understand how the Beast could sin against stars, plants, rocks, and trees R" Of course I can't because Dave never writes a discussion. My discussion = D"sinned against the entirety - ENTROPY - spoilage – decay – temporary – here today gone tomorrowRev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. R" Wrong again, it does not say a brand new earth, but a renewed earth. Question – is Rev 21 a real prophesy – is Rev 21 God’s PlanIs NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary placeOr do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2022 16:24:19 GMT -5
Greetings Dave RP" When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD) D"Do you mean what you say – or do you just argue to corrupt and tear down?
R" This verse is one of many, you cannot make it the only theme for a topic, as you are doing.
Sure I agree when we sin, we become our own destroyer, and destroy our own soul. But if you read my discussion, I add more.
This is achieved by breaking relationship to the HS who administrates the medium of relationships within you to GOD, so your sinning opposes GOD because you have become a destroyer of the medium, cutting off GOD from communion with you. When you study a topic you must study line upon line, here and there, all the verses, not as Gordon does, the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't like.
D"You deny the Spirit – you deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God R" Are you suggesting that the HS is a mere force of the Father, or a Father feminine expressions, and not a co-eternal, divine being from eternity, that co-exists with the Father from eternal, as a family picture shows us in Scripture?
SO you have only cardinally one strong authority. Why do you call it a Father, when it's not?
Actually the Hebrew word "ab" does not mean Father anyhow, but "provider". So when the "messenger of YHWH" is seen in Scripture, your coping theme is to make this a cherub, is pure assumption.
Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Since when do we know of an angel that can forgive sin, because the Father has given the angel this power? And therefore the angel came to die on a cross to forgive our sins?
And a messenger cannot be a Father expression of masculine character either, because its not a being carrying a messenger, as the word "malak" means. Not a single case anywhere in Scripture of a person carrying the person as a clone or expression, you violate the meaning of messenger, with your expression idea. As you do with a expression having to pray to the expression, in John 17 for example.
Obviously messenger-YHWH is a pre-existing Jesus, the SON of the Father, who existed from eternity with heavenly parents, also from eternity.
You are preaching false doctrines about the "elohiym" and the other members within the "elohiym". In the oldest book of the torah, Job, why is "elohiym" hardly mentioned, but YHWH, Eloah and Shadday, mentioned many times?
D"God created the option to sin in Gen 2:17 when he gave Adam the choice But sin entered the world through Eve (the feminine) R" Why is this a big deal for you? I consider it wrong.
Sinning entered the world through Adam, the masculine, even though the feminine sinned first. The reason is because Adam was prince of creation, and Lord over the family of man, and thus king over his kingdom. Adam did not want another wife, He wanted Eve to remain with him, so He choose to sin with her. His sin changed the kingdom, not her sin. Hebrew always is masculine in nature, and everything is referenced this way. And humans were not the first creature to have sinned. Cherubs sinned first. But Adam was the first to have sinned in his kingdom, because this causes a spoiling of his world, just as the sinning caused a spoiling of the cherubs world too, hence why the earth was void and formless. Our earth is once again heading in the same way, to becoming void and formless, as man continues to destroy the earth with his sinning.
Again Dave, notice I add discussion, you don't? Don't you care? Or have you not thought your view through?
D"Almost – technically they are 100% selfish (yester ra) - they abuse man – they are our real struggle – Eph 6:12 Gen 6:1-4 is the story of a group of them that sinned by reproducing out of their kind (yester ra) the COMPULSION to – go forth be fruitful and multiply And this group of ‘sinning angels’ are locked away awaiting to be released again in Rev 9 R" Nice theory Dave. I do not agree with any of this, but I accept your theory, its also an invented idea of the Jews. God does not create dysfunction normally. How can I be so sure?
Read the whole of Isaiah 45.
YHWH speaks to a anointed, called Cyrus, who is a SIMILE of yasha the Divine YHWH who Yasha's. This word is mentioned many times, but is also a verb and a noun. "yasha", the Divine one who saves. A simile of Cyrus.
In verse 7 is a parallel
YASHA forms light but creates dark. YASHA does peace but creates ra.
This shows us that either YASHA is normally making His world with both contrasts, or with one contrast. Which is it? Well darkness normally cannot exist in the presence of light, so normally under a seven fold brightness of light more brighter than our sun, darkness does not exist.
Einstein says darkness does not exist.
So if darkness does not exist, than RA does not exist either under the normal world of YASHA.
The poetry parallel forces us to this conclusion.
But Gnostic teachings teach wrong application of poetry parallel, that YASHA creates both tov and ra in mankind and other creatures get 100% yester ra ONLY in their makeup, it totally wrong.
Verse 12 says "I made the earth" Not a single verse says earth was created, Earth was already here.
Verse 17 tells us the YASHA saves us with an eternal salvation
Verse 18 repeats (Dave wants things repeated over and over) that heavens were created, but earth was formed (not created) , made to be inhabited and not left void and formless.
Verse 20 says do not pray to strong authorities that cannot yasha, so there is only one yasha in the whole of the universe of eternity. Verse 21 describes elohiym as a "power" concept, for there is no "el" , "yasha" but Me. So this makes "elohiym" a "family power" from which "el" and "yasha" come from.
What I showed Dave before by a professor Jew, a godhead, with a real Father and a real Son.
R" nice to see you finally put quotation marks over your view D" And this group of ‘sinning angels’ are locked away awaiting to be released again in Rev 9 R" Because Dave does not have "sinning angels" like the torah teaches. Your messengers cannot really sin because they have no free will.
So you cannot answer the 1 John 3:8 verse can you?
Who is the shedim that sins like a human sins, both with free will to sin? D"Then – all your sinning angels are locked away from mankind AND – God called choshek / sin TOV – Gen 1:31 R" Been through this before Dave, the "everlasting chains of darkness" is NOT a literal chain that restricts you every movement. It's a bondage of sin over you, a trapping of RA within you, does not mean you are locked away unable to do anything further. Your Gnostic teachings of 'sinning angels' hanging upside down in agony, is a myth. If you read the torah and the torah only, no such prison exists, when a sinning creature sins, they are still able to continue sinning. But the sins become over them as everlasting chains of darkness.
Like when I see a drunk, you cannot witness to them, they have no sound mind, or a person high on drugs, it's useless to witness to them, no sound mind. They are trapped in the everasting chains of darkness because of the choices of their sinnings. Some poor humans are born with genetic defomities and are truly trapped in chains that restrict them, like K21 disease, they can't talk properly and live not very long.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
This verse is written using "hamartano" a Greek word for "chata" the Hebrew word, so the "aggelos" messengers truly did sin, not a pretend sin as Dave claims. Thus these messengers have free will to sin.
The chains of darkness, is not literal, how can a chain be made of darkness? It's a reference to the chains of sin.
Where does it say the messengers that sin, are locked away? Are you adding to the verse something not there? They are banished to "hell".... is a place. --------------------
D"IF – Gen 1:2 = SIN – why does God call it tov R" WHere does GOD declare darkness as good?
Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. I see no Scripture where the darkness is declared good?
D"Why do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / aven R" aven is not evil, its a recording genetic process of the DNA, what is recorded by the aven is up to you.
D"YES I read you post
ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS PROVE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HEBREW and JEWISH IDIOMS R" Oh, so I am allowed to ignore your sentences too, and make up stuff that you do not understand my idioms?
D" Mat 6:4 so that your tzedakah may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, shall reward you. R" to context is about giving, sharing, loving, NOT creating.
D"IT SEEMS TO BE TOO COMPLICATED FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND R" Yes, you use verses out of their context.
D"NO I am saying the Lamb is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the ox is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the tree is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the fruit is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying that the cherub is a simile of the King of Tyre
R" WOW, that was a shocker to me?
So you deny the verse applying to Jesus do you?
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee.
So Israel is a SIMILE of the tree, the LORD planted.
Jer 11:18 ¶ And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings.
R" The me here is the prophet, and I here is the prophet, a SIMILE of WHOM?
Jer 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
So in seeking poetry parallels, we seek line upon line, here and there:
Ho 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
Ho 14:8 ...From me is thy fruit found.
Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious,
Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
Isa 53:8 ..for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
Ps 23:1The LORD is my shepherd;
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm,
Ps 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me:
Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water,
OK so you deny the SIMILES referring to Jesus do you? What else could these similes be about than?
D"and your satan comes alive as a new and different god opposing (Accusing) God R" Unlike you I don't have to pretend sin isn't sin, and that your 'sinning angels' are locked away because of 'sinning' they cannot do because the cherubs have no free will to 'sin'. In my torah, sinning is real and any creature that sins, has free will to choose to sin. I even agree that Alex the gray African parrot had intelligence to sin, but the Scriptures record their "spirit" goeth downward, so there ability to be saved is not granted by the Lord. You imply yester ra is some forceful inclination and nothing about intelligence or choice. If a creature has intelligence, than that creature can choose to do sinning.
"Thus has free will do choose sinning", but not all creatures can be saved, Scripture tells us that only man can choose a Saviour. Again Dave, I take time to write discussions. You don't.
D"None of the - "lamb" "ox" "tree" and "fruit" - became an independent being different then its subject R" Now who's playing word games and watering down the fun of poetry and similes?
D" Christ pre-existed – Mortal Jesus was born of Mortal Mary in 6-4BC R" What? explain. In my view, Jesus is eternal and uncaused. He simply chose to add humanity to His divinity and also volunteered to switch off his divinity nature so the humanity could grow up and become fully human, a mystery I cannot write justice to. Your GNostic writings imply angels can do similar things, changing shape and changing function to allow their inherent yester ra to sexually deprave the angel, but the 'sinning angel' is locked away for this 'sin' that is not a real sin. How is that a fair judgement.
Really Jews invent stuff, made up garbage really, corrupting minds of the 8 yr olds forced to think l;ike this. Talmud read with Torah. Brainwashed training.
Only divinity can do mystery things, not angels.
D"Easy – R" No Dave, not possible in your view.
"malak" "Flowing authority strong on palms"
If the word read "Flowing Strong Authority on palms" I might agree, but it intentionally reverses the "god" element, and has "Flowing authority strong on palms" So a messenger carries on his palms the flowing messages of God, they are not God directly themselves. This is why the SON is a written as a messenger, because the SON is carrying the Father's authority on His palms, not the expression of the Father, functioning as a messenger of the Father, what a absurd notion you pose.
You violate the meaning of messenger. You violate the meaning of ambassador You violate the meaning of carrier You violate the meaning of courier You violate the meaning of representative You violate the meaning of comforter You violate the meaning of "us"
Really Dave, stop pretending you are a Jew, they have cardinally one god, and there "us" is a bunch of angels. Not some additional expressions of one being.
D" The Holy Spirit – the feminine Spirit of God
R" Pr 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
R" One could say the instructions are expressions of the torah, so the father is an expression of the mother.
In some ways this is OK, in other ways you deny the real father and real mother and the "US" that created gender male and gender female in their image.
Pr 1:10 ¶ My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Scripture is abound with family pictures of elohiym, but you ignore this.
D"YOUR CLAIM THAT CHRIST IS JUST AN ANGEL IS REJECTED R" I didn't say that did I? I said "malak" means "messenger" not "cherub". Can't you read? Rp" Dave splits this divine being into two, the biological and the Father expression. D" YEP – Jesus Christ was 100% biology just like you and me +100% Christ – God incarnate Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
(KJV) R" I so disagree with you.
The HaSatan is trying to get the real Jesus mind that is divinity to sin. Since when can a human pray for stones to become bread. I cannot do such miracles, nor can you. But divinity can.
Proof the divine mind with divine power was also present with the human mind and the human power. But Jesus chose not to use His divinity. And thus did not sin by breaking faith. He choose to get his powers always and only by His Father via faith.
D"Judgment always is a judgment scene – no matter where it takes place R" I judge your posts all the time, and I need no prosecutor to tell me you posts are wrong, not following the torah, in fact the HS functions as my tutor, and Jesus, helps me too. What do I need a creature angel for ? When I have divinity for help? Not denying the help of angels, but you seem to think an angel is required to help God with sins humans do.
That idea is bogus.
RP" Nu 22:22 - So the messenger of YHWH is functioning as a prosecutor against the ass? you are weird and funny. D" Is Num 22 a judgment scene Mr serious? R" so where is your discussion Dave? You can't write one?
Nu 22:23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field. The ass saw the messenger YHWH and turned off the road, into the field, to go around the opposer opposing the movement along the road. DUH
Where is a prosecutor function? There isn't one here. Therefore "prosecutor" cannot fit the meaning of "satan/verb/noun"
Where is your defense discussion? You cannot write one.
D"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place R" NO Dave. Wrong. Try reading Greek. You are a Greek scholar.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new "kainos"heaven and a new "kainos" earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new "neos" wine into old bottles:
Scripture does NOT say Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new "neos" heaven and a new "neos" earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
You are dead wrong. The earth is restored to it's original condition before SIN.
Therefore inherent entropy could not have existed.
Nor inherent yester ra.
Nor natural death and decay
You are so wrong, And you are a Greek scholar.
D"Or do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over R" Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
SIN never is allowed to be created again, because no free will creature ever chooses to sin again. All sinning creatures cease to exist Dave, DUH.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 14, 2022 7:12:46 GMT -5
RP" When a human sins, He destroys his own soul. (Severs the connection of the MEDIUM, that connects the human to GOD) D"Do you mean what you say – or do you just argue to corrupt and tear down? R" Sure I agree when we sin, we become our own destroyer, and destroy our own soul. But if you read my discussion, I add more. This is achieved by breaking relationship to the HS This is achieved by disobeying God - transgression his commandments ---------------------------------- D"You deny the Spirit – you deny that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God R" Are you suggesting that the HS is a mere force of the Father, or a Father feminine expressions, and not a co-eternal, divine being from eternity, that co-exists with the Father from eternal, as a family picture shows us in Scripture? Exo 33:20 But He also said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.” God the Father – unseen by man – uncomprehendable by man – beyond man’s ability to understand 1st dimensional point that contains all Knowledge and Power -un locatable In the Beginning was the word – the speaker of the word
Exo 33:21 Then Adonai said, “See, a place near Me—you will stand on the rock. Exo 33:22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and cover you with My hand, until I have passed by. The Glory of God – The Spirit of God – The Holy Spirit – the Shekinah – the ether – the matrix God in the 2nd dimension – our planar reality – the base EM for all creation – God at a distance The word was with God – the word spread throughout reality – all 10Ds of itExo 33:23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face will not be seen.” God in 3D – the image of God – Christ And the word as GodYou have never explained to me how you get 3 different gods out of this passageSO you have only cardinally one strong authority. YES – there is Only One True God – Father – that is beyond man You can interact with His Spirit – the Left Hand – feminine – Holy Spirit – Mother / Womb You can inter act with His image – the Right Hand – male – Christ – SonWhy do you call it a Father, when it's not?God is NOT the Creator? - Now what satanic crap are you trying to push?I have asked you and asked you to explain why you see three different gods in this passage Actually the Hebrew word "ab" does not mean Father anyhow, but "provider". Argue words – to obscure the message – it is what you have been trained to do as an SDA-------------------- Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Since when do we know of an angel that can forgive sin, because the Father has given the angel this power? And therefore the angel came to die on a cross to forgive our sins? I REJECT YOUR SATANIC TEACHING – the messenger of the Lord that forgives sin = Christ You just want to play word games – to obscure the message And a messenger cannot be a Father You certainly deny His messageD"God created the option to sin in Gen 2:17 when he gave Adam the choice But sin entered the world through Eve (the feminine) R" Why is this a big deal for you? I consider it wrong.YES – you need scripture to be wrong – you need Judaism to be wrong – you need mainstream Christianity to be wrong - for your Ellen White satan religion Sinning entered the world through Adam, the masculine Just arrogant male only Catholic crap – male or female – we are all man / mankindD"Almost – technically they are 100% selfish (yester ra) - they abuse man – they are our real struggle – Eph 6:12 Gen 6:1-4 is the story of a group of them that sinned by reproducing out of their kind (yester ra) the COMPULSION to – go forth be fruitful and multiply And this group of ‘sinning angels’ are locked away awaiting to be released again in Rev 9 R" Nice theory Dave. I do not agree with any of this, YES – you need scripture to be wrong – you need Judaism to be wrong – you need mainstream Christianity to be wrong - for your Ellen White satan religion
-------------------- Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. I see no Scripture where the darkness is declared good? R" WHere does GOD declare darkness as good?Gen 1:31 So God saw everything that He made, and behold it was very good.D"Why do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / avenR" aven is not evil, its a recording genetic process of the DNA, what is recorded by the aven is up to you. Gen 1:28 God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, fill the land, and conquer it. Rule over the fish of the sea, the flying creatures of the sky, and over every animal that crawls on the land.” Jews claim this is (yester ra) the God given instinct for Self-preservation and the survival of the species + the desite / compulsion to (KJV) subdue it: and have dominionWhy do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / avenH205 - אָוֶן - 'âven From an unused root perhaps meaning properly to pant (hence to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble, vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol: - affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners (-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain, vanity, wicked (-ness.) Compare H369. www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/aven.htmlDefinition trouble, wickedness, sorrow trouble, sorrow idolatry trouble of iniquity, wickedness affliction 1, distress 1, evil 4, false 1, harm 1, idol 1, iniquity 37, misfortune 1, mourners' 1, mourning 1, sorrow 1, trouble 2, unrighteous 1, vanity 1, wicked 6, wickedness 15, wrong 1, wrongdoers 1 Why do you call it a blessing by God to be evil / wicked / aven
---------- D"NO I am saying the Lamb is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the ox is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the tree is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the fruit is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying that the cherub is a simile of the King of Tyre R" WOW, that was a shocker to me? So you deny the verse applying to Jesus do you? WHAT – learn to read EnglishD"None of the - "lamb" "ox" "tree" and "fruit" - became an independent being different then its subject R" Now who's playing word games and watering down the fun of poetry and similes? You claim that the cherub of Ezk 28 is NOT about the King of Tyre or mankind – you claim that the simile comes alive as a new individual with a theology all of its own
The simile of the ox is about Jesus Christ – the ox does not become a new and different god The simile of the tree is about Jesus Christ – the tree does not become a new and different god The simile of the fruit is about Jesus Christ – the fruit does not become a new and different god AND The simile of the cherub is about King of Tyre – the cherub does not become a new and different god ------------------ D" Christ pre-existed – Mortal Jesus was born of Mortal Mary in 6-4BC R" What? explain. Really Dave, stop pretending you are a Jew, they have cardinally one god, and there "us" is a bunch of angels. Not some additional expressions of one being. YEP – Only One God – (US = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and there are a bunch of angels all around us + there are entities that are anything but human that have manipulated this world form the outside for eons
---------------- Rp" Dave splits this divine being into two, the biological and the Father expression. D" YEP – Jesus Christ was 100% biology just like you and me +100% Christ – God incarnate R" I so disagree with you. Of course you do - you teach that Christ is just a man of biology - killed by satanD"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place R" NO Dave. Wrong. Try reading Greek. You are a Greek scholar.
Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new "neos" wine into old bottles:NOT THE QUESTION PUT TO YOUD"Or do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over R" Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. GOOD – NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIOND"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2022 15:09:51 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You do not use Jeff Benner to explain Hebrew words, so you miss much H202 is the same as H205. Your dictionary does not do this. Job 18:7 The steps of his strength (Aven) shall be straitened, and his own counsel shall cast him down. The word has both both positive vigor and negative vigor Use Jeff Benner, not secular dictionaries where we disagree. ------------------ D "The simile of the ox is about Jesus Christ – the ox does not become a new and different god The simile of the tree is about Jesus Christ – the tree does not become a new and different god The simile of the fruit is about Jesus Christ – the fruit does not become a new and different god AND The simile of the cherub is about King of Tyre – the cherub does not become a new and different godR" An example of how you twist "ox" subject Dave" The simile of the ox is about Jesus Christ Rob " wow, you agree Dave" – the ox does not become a new and different god Rob" No because it's the subject, only the simile becomes the " new and different god""tree" subject Dave" The simile of the tree is about Jesus Christ Rob " wow, you agree Dave" – the tree does not become a new and different god Rob" No because it's the subject, only the simile becomes the " new and different god""fruit" subject Dave" The simile of the fruit is about Jesus Christ Rob " wow, you agree Dave" – the fruit does not become a new and different god Rob" No because it's the subject, only the simile becomes " new and different god" BUT Dave changes the order now....... "King Tyre" subject Dave should say The simile of King Tyre is a cherub. But Dave does NOT say this. Dave" The simile of the cherub is about King of Tyre Rob" Wrong Dave. King Tyre is the subject, the simile of King Tyre is the cherub. D" the cherub does not become a new and different godR" technically not, nor does King Tyre become a new and different king. But both sinned. King Tyre sins. Cherub sins. They both remain creatures, even though both sin. King Tyre was once a good king, but through sinning became a bad king, whom GOD will destroy. this is a simile of A chief cherub who was also "prince" but chose to sin, and though sinning became a bad cherub, whom GOD will destroy. Why do you twist Ezekiel 28? D" YEP – Only One God R" SO you are saying there is only ONE "el" in Scripture? Explain these different "els" than? "el" shaddai "el-oah" "Micha-"el" So all these three "els" are the Father, "el"shaddai is the left hand of the Father and the right hand is the "Micha-el" you call Christ. But you happily acknowledge three "el" in Scripture but marry them as three expressions of one "el". You cannot say the Father becomes three "els" calling this three expressions, because the term "el" means a "god of strong authority" any being of strong authority, including trees, mountains and humans, understood NOT to be expressions of some other "el". You twist the meaning of "el". So in your view compound unity cannot exist, as echad teaches, gender male and gender female become echad in marriage. In your view the feminine "el" and the masculine "el" are not heavenly parents? So the use of echad cannot exist with GOD? De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Why the use of this term echad than? Why not just say Hear O Israel the YHWH is elohiym el. It does not say that. The word elohiym has "el" and "eloh" meaning "Father-el" and finally "m" the letter than means flow. SO elohiym means the Father's power flows. D" Of course you do - you teach that Christ is just a man of biology R" I teach Jesus Christ is YHWH, the YAH part of YHWH and the WH part is the Father, the two YHWH are one (echad), the messenger YWHW is Christ who is from eternity, uncaused and divine. D" NOT THE QUESTION PUT TO YOU GOOD – NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION D"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset this world was created as a passing temporary placeR" Again, NO Dave THis world was created ONCE to last for eternity with humans on it clad in bioogical bodies to remain clad that way for eternity, all witnessing to a temporary problem, SIN. Creation is to be restored back to it's sinless perfection. Including mankind. Including our DNA. and including the Creation before SIN. Not a reset . No BUT a restoration. A renewal of that way lost. Noah's flood was not a Brand New beginning either, but the same biology placed upon spoiled earth. It is the sinning and spoiling that is removed. Sin is forever removed and the sinners with it. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 15, 2022 3:37:06 GMT -5
"King Tyre" subject Dave should say The simile of King Tyre is a cherub. But Dave does NOT say this. REPEAT – the King of Tyre is like a cherubDave" The simile of the cherub is about King of Tyre Rob" Wrong Dave. King Tyre is the subject, the simile of King Tyre is the cherub. REPEAT – the King of Tyre is like a cherubD"the cherub does not become a new and different god R" technically not, ABSOLUTELY CORRECT 1- Ezk 28 is all about the King of Tyre – not your cherub 2- your cherub did NOT become another god – separate and different than the King of Tyre---------------------------- D"YEP – Only One God R" SO you are saying there is only ONE "el" in Scripture? THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – ONE TRUE CREATOR!28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only Godmit.irr.org › 28-biblical-passages-which-explicitl... Aug 22, 2011 — 28 Biblical passages that teach there is only one God THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – ONE TRUE CREATOR! Any other teaching is satanic heresy------------------------- D"Of course you do - you teach that Christ is just a man of biology R" I teach Jesus Christ is YHWHYou absolutely deny the concept of God incarnate You argue - How Can YHWY and Jesus talk together if they are the same person D"NOT THE QUESTION PUT TO YOU GOOD – NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION D"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset this world was created as a passing temporary place R" Again, NO Dave THis world was created ONCE to last for eternity So you teach - your satan is more powerful and your god has to start over ME – All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is ABSOLUTENot a reset . No BUT a restoration. A renewal of that was lost. Just Robert’s word game so he can disagree and mock me, Christianity, God and scriptureExplaining why Robert will Not answer questions - only ask them Explaining why Robert refuses to defend Ellen White's SDA doctrine I tire of your game!
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Post by Dillon on Nov 15, 2022 7:51:52 GMT -5
Just Robert’s word game so he can disagree and mock me, Christianity, God and scripture Explaining why Robert will Not answer questions - only ask them Explaining why Robert refuses to defend Ellen White's SDA doctrine
Robert’s academic acuity is obvious Explaining why no one else will engage him What a waste of time!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2022 15:24:16 GMT -5
Greetings Dillon, ask your friend Dave, what is the difference in the Greek word "neos" and "kainos" and than ask your friend Dave, what word does Rev 21 show?
Such a word completely changes the world view between Dave, your friend and my view, which you seem to think, I waste time. I do not argue for argue's sake, but your Greek scholar friend should know better.
If something is renewed, it isn't a brand new creation, but a restored creation.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Here is the same word again, translated completely wrong. Ask your Greek translator what the meaning should be.
SO when I become a Jesus Christian, I become completely brand new, and my body of biology leaves me, and I get this spirit body Dave raves about that is completely promised when connected to Jesus?
No that is not what the words are saying. It says when you become a Jesus Christian you are restored, renewed and made sinless like before Adam sinned, except you still have your old biological body with you. But Adam was born sinless in a perfect world, without a body that was spoiled by sin.
Next you will notice how your friend now posts what I agree with.
Dave" REPEAT – the King of Tyre is like a cherub
Rob " this is correctly stated, but this is NOT what Dave originally posted. The King of Tyre is a simile of a cherub. But your friend tried to make the cherub a simile of King Tyre.
Either your friend is lazy with words, or just doesn't care to check the communication, or is being obstinate, I don't know. But words are important especially if you are trying to seek truth.
And finally your friend boasts in the Jewish understanding their is cardinally one Father as three expressions of Himself.
This is not mainstream Christian belief, for there are several views of the trinity, and none say the Father is comprised of three expressions of the Father.
However I note, the Jewish understanding is changing:-
I quote"
Why a 'divine' messiah was not beyond belief A new book by a leading Jewish scholar turns some of our preconceptions about Jesus and the origins of Christianity on their head
The JC BY THE JC
APRIL 22, 2013 12:54 One of the more intriguing trends in Jewish circles is growing interest in Jesus. The work of scholars such as Geza Vermes who have explored the Jewish background of the Christian messiah has filtered into the mainstream. Shmuley Boteach published his book Kosher Jesus last year; Naomi Alderman’s recent novel The Liar’s Gospel was an alternative version of the Jesus story. The American academic Amy-Jill Levine, author of the Jewish Annotated New Testament, found a ready audience at the Limmud conference in Warwick last winter.
There is now a greater willingness to reclaim Jesus as a radical rabbi who preached Jewish teachings to Jews. Christianity is explained as the creation of his followers who introduced into it pagan notions such as the rebirth of a dying god.
But a daring new book by one of the world’s leading Jewish scholars challenges this simple contrast. The Jewish Gospels is a short work aimed at general readers by Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmud at the University of California in Berkeley. In ancient times, the borders between what Judaism and Christianity were far more porous than we conceive today, he argues: it was not until the fourth century that the doctrinal differences were clarified, not least because of the desire of the Roman-backed church to put clear water between the spreading new faith and those it considered Jews.
His most explosive contention is that the concept of a divine messiah was not an alien import but part of the cauldron of ideas that bubbled in the volatile world of classical Judaism. “The basic underlying thoughts from which both the Trinity and the incarnation grew are there in the very world into which Jesus was born,” he writes.
Jesus could have plausibly claimed to be the “son of God”, or rather the “son of Man”, as was the more potent phrase, which goes back to the Book of Daniel. In his dreams, the prophet sees heavenly thrones — the plural is significant. On one sits the “Ancient of Days” whose hair is white as wool (Daniel 7:9): but emerging from the “clouds of heaven” is another apparition, who is likened to a “Son of Man”, whose “dominion is an everlasting dominion” and who is to be served by all peoples and nations (7:13-14).
Some interpreters may regard the Son of Man simply as the symbolic representation of a warrior-Messiah , who does not enjoy divine status, or of heroic Israel. But Boyarin suggests that Daniel’s vision reflected earlier traditions of a dual Father-Son godhead — which later rabbis successfully fought as heresy but which underlay the Gospels’ depiction of Jesus.
It is fair to say that the apocalyptic visions of Daniel are not familiar territory even to most shul-going Jews. Even less known are other texts on which Boyarin draws to bolster his argument that “Gospel Judaism” was a “Jewish messianic movement”.
The Similitudes of Enoch is an apocryphal work dated by scholars to the tumultuous first century CE — the same era as Jesus — and named after the mysterious character who appears briefly at the start of the Bible and is whisked to heaven.
In the Similitudes, the narrator Enoch recounts a heavenly vision of a figure with “a head of days” like “white wool”, accompanied by another “whose face was like the appearance of a man”. That “Son of Man” sits on “the throne of glory”: he will deliver judgment, vanquish the wicked and be worshipped on earth. Enoch comes to understand that the Son of Man is actually himself.
Another first century Jewish text, the Fourth Book of Ezra, depicts a redeemer “like the figure of a man”, flying with the clouds of heaven to initiate some kind of judgment day. “The forms of many people came to him, some of whom were joyful and some sorrowful; some of whom were bound and some were bringing others as offerings.”
Boyarin also shows how Daniel’s vision could be decoded to lend credence to the idea of suffering redeemer. The New Testament, he concludes, is “much more deeply embedded within Second Temple Jewish life and thought than many have imagined, even… in the very moments that we take to be most characteristically Christian as opposed to Jewish: the notion of a dual godhead with a Father and a Son, the notion of a Redeemer who himself will be both God and man, and the notion that this Redeemer would suffer and die as part of the salvational process.”
Of course, this is by no means a consensus view among scholars. PeterSchäfer, author of The Jewish Jesus, for example, believes that Boyarin overstates his case. But investigations of first-century Judaism are shaking old certainties. We all build our worldview on ideas about the past. The effect of works like Boyarin’s is to make the solid ground on which we think we stand seem more like ice that can melt into something more fluid.
The implications of such radicalism could extend beyond the halls of academia and theological exchange between Christians and Jews. If Boyarin is right, then messianic Jews whose belief in Jesus as messiah puts them currently beyond the Jewish pale might have more claim to be an offshoot of Judaism than we think.
End quote.
I do not know of any major Christian religion that says that Jesus Christ roaming upon the earth, as the Father dressed up in masculine form as an expression of Himself.
I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before.
I am also happy to leave this forum too, if you both seem to think that defending the torah is a waste of time.
I thank both of you for the chance to learn about Jewish and Gnostic writings, and how they are not the same as the truth from the Hebrew torah.
D"Just Robert’s word game so he can disagree and mock me,
Dave understands that matter came with inherent entropy. So if the next creation is "brand new" the inherent entropy will not be there, and Dave is hoping for a creation like this, one that is perfect without flaws.
But my understanding is the creation is "renewed" meaning it is restored back to what it was before SIN spoiled things. This proves that "inherent entropy" never existed before SIN in the first place.
So word meanings are important, and playing word games, leads to errors in thinking. Thus thinking also implies we walk into heaven and earth in the renewed bodies we have, not something completely brand new, not made of matter, as Dave implies. Enoch walked into heaven unchanged, and so did Elijah, so we have evidence that sinless biological bodies are possible, and that "inherent entropy" never existed in our bodies, as Dave claims. Enoch would be thousands of years old, so the biology never ages either, unlike our bodies do, because of sin.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 16, 2022 4:25:26 GMT -5
I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. Question – is Rev 21 a real prophesy – is Rev 21 God’s PlanIs NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place Or do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over Dave, what is the difference in the Greek word "neos" and "kainos" and - what word does Rev 21 show? Such a word completely changes the world view between Dave, your friend and my view, which you seem to think, I waste time. I do not argue for argue's sake, but your Greek scholar friend should know better. WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMED"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place R" NO Dave. Wrong. Try reading Greek. You are a Greek scholar.
Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new "neos" wine into old bottles:NOT THE QUESTION PUT TO YOUD"Or do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over R" Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. GOOD – NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIOND"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary place I do not argue for argue's sake WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAME---------------- Such a word completely changes the world view between Dave and Robert Differences between Dave and Robert#1 – at the top of the listYes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? D"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset this world was created as a passing temporary place R" Again, NO Dave THis world was created ONCE to last for eternity So you teach - your satan is more powerful and your god has to start over ME – All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is ABSOLUTE Dave teaches – God is Absolute – God is sovereign – God is in control – God’s Creation is tov – and from the beginning or the end of scripture was always God Plan because it is God’s Will Rev 21 is God’s Plan – It was always God’s Plan from the very beginningGen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. H3966 – מְאֹד - From the same as H181; properly vehemence, that is, (with or without preposition) vehemently; by implication wholly, speedily, etc. (often with other words as an intensive or superlative; especially when repeated): - diligently, especially, exceeding (-ly), far, fast, good, great (-ly), X louder and louder, might (-ily, -y), (so) much, quickly, (so) sore, utterly, very (+ much, sore), well. H2896 – טוֹב - tobe From H2895; good (as an adjective) in the widest sense; Gen 1:2 … darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved … Darkness is not evil – It is IGNORANCE Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. The Light is always – the TRUTH of God Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Rev 21 is God’s Plan – It was always God’s Plan from the very beginning God is Absolute – God is sovereign – God is in control – God’s Creation is tov – and from the beginning or the end of scripture was always God Plan because it is God’s Will Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: This world was created as a passing temporary place and God divided the light (New Heaven and Earth) from the darkness.(Gen 1:2 – Rev 20)Robert teaches that God tried to make a tov creation – but lost control to his satan god God’s creation is NOT tov and Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 are proof that satan is in controlTHis world was created ONCE to last for eternity Therefore - because of your satan god – The Creator’s Will is DENIED – and the Creator is forced to start over I do not know of any major Christian religion that says that Jesus Christ roaming upon the earth, as the Father dressed up in masculine form as an expression of Himself.Proof that you are outside of mainstream Judeo-Christianity Proof that you are proud of your own ignorance Proof that you anti-Christianin·car·nate(especially of a deity or spirit) embodied in flesh; in human form. "God incarnate" (google) Incarnation, central Christian doctrine that God became flesh, that God assumed a human nature and became a man in the form of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the second person of the Trinity. Christ was truly God and truly man. This is the foundation of Christianity Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, ------------------- Dave" REPEAT – the King of Tyre is like a cherub Rob " this is correctly stated, but this is NOT what Dave originally posted. The King of Tyre is a simile of a cherub QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refuge And finally your friend boasts in the Jewish understanding their is cardinally one Father as three expressions of Himself. QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refugeI quote"Why a 'divine' messiah was not beyond belief A new book by a leading Jewish scholar turns some of our preconceptions about Jesus and the origins of Christianity on their head
One of the more intriguing trends in Jewish circles is growing interest in Jesus. YES – the end times - what a chance to witness Too bad Robert is anti-semetic and would force them to become Catholic SDA – NOT Messianic Jews Christianity is explained as the creation of his followers who introduced into it pagan notions such as the rebirth of a dying god.Robert teaches that his satan killed god on the cross (powerful satan – weak / helpless god)In ancient times, the borders between what Judaism and Christianity were far more porous than we conceive today, ABSOLUTELY MY POINT – THE CONTEXT OF JESUS CHRIST What was the theology of Jesus and His disciples – what did they believe – all of them were Pentecostal Messianic Jewshe argues: it was not until the fourth century that the doctrinal differences were clarified, not least because of the desire of the Roman-backed church to put clear water between the spreading new faith and those it considered Jews.ABSOLUTELY MY POINT – THE ROMAN EDITSynod of Laodicea - Canon 29Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. Roman Catholicism with its fallen angels and satan IS A DIFFERENT RELIGION – changed – altered from the original – corrupted from the original – a satanic replacement What was the theology of Jesus and His disciples –all of them were Pentecostal Messianic Jews If you are led by the Spirit – you do NOT NEED AN ORGANIZED RELIGION OR A PREISTAnother first century Jewish text, the Fourth Book of Ezra, depicts a redeemer “like the figure of a man”, flying with the clouds of heaven to initiate some kind of judgment day. “The forms of many people came to him, some of whom were joyful and some sorrowful; some of whom were bound and some were bringing others as offerings.”THIS IS NOT TORAH – SO ROBERT CALLS IT GNOSTIC AND ERRORinvestigations of first-century Judaism are shaking old certainties. We all build our worldview on ideas about the past. YEP – ROBERT’S VIEW OF ANCIENT JUDAISM IS THE CATHOLIC VERSION Therefore Robert is surprise at true Jewish teachingsThe implications of such radicalism could extend beyond the halls of academia and theological exchange between Christians and Jews. TOO BAD ROBERT DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THIS SENTENCEIf Boyarin is right, then messianic Jews whose belief in Jesus as messiah puts them currently beyond the Jewish pale might have more claim to be an offshoot of Judaism than we think.DUH – but lacking the birthright – I call myself a Gnostic Christian The Gnostic Gospels DO NOT contradict Torah or Gospel – but do reembrace Jewish demonology ABSOLUTELY MY POINT – THE CONTEXT OF JESUS CHRISTWhat was the theology of Jesus and His disciples – what did they believe – all of them were Pentecostal Messianic Jews
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 14:23:26 GMT -5
Greetings Dave I cannot find any website that talks about the idea of three expressions of a heavenly Father. You will have to supply me with proof, as such a concept does not exist in the Internet. I found this written by Dale, that opposes you, and I agree with him:- kainosproject.com/2018/05/17/4-bad-ways-to-explain-the-trinity-and-1-good-one/Bad Ways To Explain The Trinity (And 1 Good One) WRITTEN BY DALE CHAMBERLAIN Few topics of discussion in the Christian faith are more confusing than the idea of the Trinity.
The God of the Bible is one God. He has one essence—one substance. In other words, one “stuffness.” However, He exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Each Person in the Trinity (or the Godhead) is fully God and fully a Person. They are equally eternal, powerful, sovereign, and worthy of worship. But they are one God.
Confusing, I know.
But this idea is central to the Christian faith. So much of what we know about what God does is wrapped up in who He is.
For instance, we know that God is perfectly loving. And the reason we know that is because the Persons of the Godhead have perfectly loved each other for all eternity.
We also know that God didn’t create humanity out of loneliness or boredom. Rather, He created us in order to bless us. And we know that because the Persons of the Godhead have perfectly blessed and exalted each other for all eternity.
So when God created us and revealed Himself to us, what He did was to invite us into the perfect goodness He has always known within Himself.
Pretty awesome, I know.
But while this idea is central to the Christian faith, it is also incredibly mysterious to us. It’s downright hard to understand. And in our efforts to grasp it, we’ve come up with a number of analogies.
Unfortunately, most of them actually give us the wrong idea about what the Trinity is. Here are four.
1. The Trinity Is Like H2O. This is perhaps the most common analogy for the Trinity. God is like H2O—like water. Water can exist in liquid at room temperature. Heat it up, and it turns to vapor. Cool it down, and it’ll eventually freeze into a solid. But it’s all water.
This analogy seems to make a lot of sense, but it actually reinforces a fatal misconception about the Trinity called modalism.
According to modalism, God does not actually exist in three persons. He is one God who expresses Himself in three modes—Father, Son, and Spirit. But it’s all the same person, operating in three roles or functions. In the same way, water is all the same molecular structure, expressing itself in three different modes.
But if modalism is true, and the Trinity really is like water, then the story of Jesus (the Son) praying to the Father as recorded in the Bible seems like an awfully strange masquerade.
This error denies something central to God that makes Him God. So comparing God to water isn’t really as helpful as it seems on the surface.
Rob" Well said Dale. 2. The Trinity Is Like A Father Who Is Also A Husband, Who Is Also A Son. In this analogy, God is compared to a man. A man might be a father to his children, a husband to his wife, and son to his parents. He can even be all three at the same time. Surely this is a better understanding of the water analogy! But not really. This analogy actually falls prey to the same error of modalism. It’s all one person, simply functioning in three different roles.
Rob" Well said Dale. 3. Trinity Is Like A Shamrock (Or An Apple Or An Egg). The idea that the Trinity can be compared to a shamrock is largely attributed to St. Patrick. The analogy explains that in the same way that one shamrock can have three leaves on it, the Trinity has three Persons that constitute one God.
Modernizations of this analogy include that of an apple (with the peel, the flesh, and the core) or an egg (with its shell, yoke, and white).
These images fall short, because these components aren’t enough to be considered a whole on their own. If you looked at a single cloverleaf, you wouldn’t call it a shamrock. If all you had were an eggshell, you wouldn’t have a very exciting breakfast. If you only had an apple core, you wouldn’t pack it in your lunch.
But in the Godhead, each Person is fully and completely God unto Himself (even as they are all one God).
Rob" Well said Dale. 4. The Trinity Is Like The Sun. This analogy explains that the Father is like the sun. The Son is like the light rays that visibly reveal the sun, as Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The Holy Spirit is like the heat that the sun produces, unseen yet powerful and effective in making the sun felt.
This analogy sounds pretty good, but it is fatally flawed in that is describes the Son and Spirit as creations of the Father. This is the error of Arianism (not to be confused with Aryanism, which is also bad).
In Arianism, the Son is not eternally equal with the Father, but was the Father’s first and best creation. This would make Jesus something less than fully God.
Then How On Earth Should We Explain The Trinity? So, I shot down a lot of images that seems to be pretty helpful. But if they give us a warped idea of what they are trying to explain, they aren’t helpful illustrations.
So what’s one good way to explain what the Trinity is?
I believe that the best way to talk about the Trinity is to simply say that God is one God, who eternally exists in three Persons. These three Persons are all equally God and all equally Persons. Yet there is only one God.
Still confusing. But still awesome.-------------------------------- R" So if you wish to stick to your modalism idea, that is fine. You didn't like me calling your theory modalism, but that is what it is. A Father GOD in three expressions. Or three modes. It is not the mainstream idea of trinity, three divine persons in one. ------------------------------ R" I stumbled across this video on Gen 6: youtu.be/qKtHwc3mMY8 (16 minutes) R" Even though this professor says the angels sinned, all the problems of the human world is about humans that sinned. I get the impression, he says there is no story in the OT about the fall of an an angel called "satan". So the video does not support a Satan Angel, the professor makes a wrong conclusion in Job, saying the "sons of God" are only angels, they could also be "other sinless intelligent beings in other unfallen worlds" The professor does not find the same exact expression as these for some reason: Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV) He leaves out these 5 verses, and is biased to 2 Peter and Jude only. ------------------------- D" Proof that you are outside of mainstream Judeo-ChristianityR" Show me a website that speaks of your view implicitly. ----------------------- D" QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refugeDave said " Nov 13, 2022 at 8:01pm " NO I am saying the Lamb is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the ox is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the tree is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying the fruit is a simile of Jesus NO I am saying that the cherub is a simile of the King of TyreRob" I did not misquote you, you said " the cherub is a simile of the King of Tyre"This is wrong. The King or Tyre is a simile of a cherub, is correct. Than you agree with me Dave " Nov 15, 2022 at 7:37pm REPEAT – the King of Tyre is like a cherubR" This is correct. So why do you post " QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refuge"I never lied nor misquoted you?? You goofed Dave ---------------------- D" Robert teaches that his satan killed god on the cross (powerful satan – weak / helpless god)R" I teach no such thing , yet you " QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refuge" Why don't you only stick to your view instead of mocking my view, where you invent things I never said. If the penalty for mischief is LIFE for LIFE, a DIVINE being has to forfeit living in order to rescue mankind for DEATTH, hence the LAW explains the conditions of mischief. Jesus died to redeem mankind from MISCHIEF. Nothing to do with a mischief maker. However the mischief maker gets to die as well, hence why he is nervous and angry. ----------------------- D" Roman Catholicism with its fallen angels and satan IS A DIFFERENT RELIGION – changed – altered from the original – corrupted from the original R" That's funny so only the JEWS have the correct doctrines do they? Paul speaks a lot of amanuah, and the JEWS have invented their own righteousness. altered from the original, not support by JEWS. A different religion. Really Dave, if it's in the torah, the TORAH is our authority, not a bunch of secular Jews writing TALMUD. D" The Gnostic Gospels DO NOT contradict Torah or Gospel – but do reembrace Jewish demonologyR" You have never answered 1 John 3:8, how the humans that sin is the same as the SHEDIM that sin. You can never explain that clinging to your Gnostic teachings. You don't have sinning archon shedim do you? Not possible. so you ignore answering 1 John 3:8, because you do not support John or the NT torah. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2022 5:20:07 GMT -5
I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. Question – is Rev 21 a real prophesy – is Rev 21 God’s PlanIs NOT Rev 21 – a reset – without the Beast, satan, and the false prophets If Rev 21 is God’s Plan – then this world was created as a passing temporary placeOr do you prefer to teach that your satan force God to start over Dave, what is the difference in the Greek word "neos" and "kainos" and - what word does Rev 21 show? Such a word completely changes the world view between Dave, your friend and my view, which you seem to think, I waste time. I do not argue for argue's sake, but your Greek scholar friend should know better. WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMERev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Is this prophesy correct or error? If this is God’s Plan – God’s design – then this world was deliberately created as a temporary placeGOOD – NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION D"Is NOT Rev 21 – a reset - this world was created as a passing temporary placeR" Again, NO Dave THis world was created ONCE to last for eternity So – you teach Rev 21 is NOT God’s plan You teach that God tried to make a world to las forever – but was prevented by your satan god You teach that God made a tov creation – then lost control to your satan who then corrupted God’s Plan against God’s Will You teach Rev 21 is NOT God’s plan – your weak helpless god is forced to try again by your powerful god of evil Differences between Dave and Robert#1 – at the top of the listYes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE?R" Have you never read the opposes objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a ruler. ME – All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is ABSOLUTE
Dave teaches – God is Absolute – God is sovereign – God is in control – God’s Creation is tov – and from the beginning or the end of scripture was always God Plan because it is God’s Will Rev 21 is God’s Plan – It was always God’s Plan from the very beginningI cannot find any website that talks about the idea of three expressions of a heavenly Father.WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMEIt is obvious – if you answer – God is in control - then all your satan nonsense is suddenly meaningless error It is obvious – if you answer – God is NOT in control - then you realize your praise the wrong godRom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: All of God’s tov creation was lost to corruption – so you teach this passage proves your satan is the god that is in controlRom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. You teach this passage proves your satan is the god that is in controlRom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, They become satan believing Roman Catholic SDARom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. One of us teach that Jesus Christ was a man that your satan killedRom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: You teach that your satan is god WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMEIt is obvious – if you answer – God is in control - then all your satan nonsense is suddenly meaningless error It is obvious – if you answer – God is NOT in control - then you realize your praise the wrong godI cannot find any website that talks about the idea of three expressions of a heavenly Father. You will have to supply me with proof, as such a concept does not exist in the Internet.I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer?Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. God the Father androgynous (neither male or female) – beyond description A First Dimensional singularity that contains all data and all power - omniscient and omnipotent The speaker of the word The “E” before the (=mc2)Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: The Glory of God – the Spirit of God – the Holy Spirit - the word with God – God through a distance 2nd Dimensional – omnipresent – foundation of creation – the womb of creation – the mother – the feminine aspect of God – the Left hand of God The medium – the ether – the matrix – force beneath the sub-atomic - the “E” that sustains all of creation “E” on the other side of (E=mc2 – as C2 – ethereal - invisible)Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts The Image of God – the 3D image of God – Col 1:15 the image of God The male image of God – the male representation of God = Christ “E” on the other side of (E=mc2 – as m – corporeal - visible)Androgynous God – beyond man’s ability to comprehend – Called HE/HIM out of respect The Creator in the ahl/OT Male Christ – the male image of God – the Right Hand of God – the hand of instruction and salvation The Female aspect of God – Shekinah / Holy Spirit - The Left Hand of God – the hand of mystery and judgment I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer?Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer?-------------------- I found this written by Dale, that opposes you, and I agree with him:- Few topics of discussion in the Christian faith are more confusing than the idea of the Trinity. The God of the Bible is one God. He has one essence—one substance. In other words, one “stuffness.” However, He exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Robert argues against the concept of one essence – one substance – he has 3 different godsEach Person in the Trinity (or the Godhead) is fully God and fully a Person. They are equally eternal, powerful, sovereign, and worthy of worship. But they are one God. Robert argues against this concept – Christ and God must be two different individuals because they talk to one anotherConfusing, I know. Not Confusing Father – beyond man’s ability to comprehend Christ – the male 3D image of the Father – the Right Hand Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God – the Left HandBut this idea is central to the Christian faith. 1. The Trinity Is Like H2O. Not my teaching – Solid, Liquid, Gaseous - can’t be all 3 at the same time2. The Trinity Is Like A Father Who Is Also A Husband, Who Is Also A Son. In this analogy, God is compared to a man. Not my teaching – an anthropomorphism This analogy actually falls prey to the same error of modalism. It’s all one person, simply functioning in three different roles. 3. Trinity Is Like A Shamrock (Or An Apple Or An Egg). These images fall short, because these components aren’t enough to be considered a whole on their own. Belongs in a Sunday School for toddlers – where is the serious discussion from Robert4. The Trinity Is Like The Sun. This analogy sounds pretty good, but it is fatally flawed in that is describes the Son and Spirit as creations of the Father. This is the error of Arianism (not to be confused with Aryanism, which is also bad). In Arianism, the Son is not eternally equal with the Father, but was the Father’s first and best creation. This would make Jesus something less than fully God. SUN worship pagan crap – where is the serious discussion from Robert So what’s one good way to explain what the Trinity is? I believe that the best way to talk about the Trinity is to simply say that God is one God, who eternally exists in three Persons. These three Persons are all equally God and all equally Persons. Yet there is only one God. Still confusing. But still awesome. NOT CONFUSING AT ALL – there is Only One True God But man can never see the father But can see / experience – the image of God – Christ But can feel / experience – the Spirit of God-------------------------------- R" So if you wish to stick to your modalism idea, that is fine. You didn't like me calling your theory modalism, but that is what it is. A Father GOD in three expressions. Or three modes. It is not the mainstream idea of trinity, three divine persons in one. No one cares what word game you play there is Only One True God But man can never see the father But can see / experience – the image of God – Christ But can feel / experience – the Spirit of God My example – a coin3D man can never see the whole coin 3D man can see the head’s side 3D man can see the tail’s side But there is only one coin Every time you see the tail’s side – you see the coin Every time you see the head’s side – you see the coin ------------------------------ R" I stumbled across this video on Gen 6: youtu.be/qKtHwc3mMY8 (16 minutes) Didn't watch itR" Even though this professor says the angels sinned, all the problems of the human world is about humans that sinned. I get the impression, he says there is no story in the OT about the fall of an an angel called "satan". Correct – Gen 6 some messengers (angels) – ARCHON - sinned Correct – there is NO falling angel in the ahl/OT
So the video does not support a Satan Angel, the professor makes a wrong conclusion in Job, saying the "sons of God" are only angels, they could also be "other sinless intelligent beings (ARCHON) in other unfallen worlds (Aliens to this world = ARCHON)" The professor does not find the same exact expression as these for some reason: Joh 1:12, Ro 8:14, Php 2:15, 1Jo 3:1, 1Jo 3:2 He leaves out these 5 verses, and is biased to 2 Peter and Jude only.More of Roberts word game5 Plumbers come to do a job – which one is THE PLUMBER There is an American in Jail in Australia - for drug smuggling There is an American in Jail in Iran - for preaching Christianity Are all Americans drug smugglers – or Pastors – or drug smuggling Pastors? ------------------------- D"Proof that you are outside of mainstream Judeo-Christianity R" Show me a website that speaks of your view implicitly.AGAINyoutu.be/LFGKX4oJlegJohn 1:1 How the Greek text argues that Jesus is God (and why it doesn't mean "Jesus is a God")11:57 min - Master Biblical Languages youtu.be/XgslCbXOOIEJohn 1 – The Word Becomes Human6:41 min – Bible Project youtu.be/_S82ZPs5ZAUJesus is God: How Greek supports the deity of Christ14:56 min - Master Biblical Languages ----------------------- D"Robert teaches that his satan killed god on the cross (powerful satan – weak / helpless god) R" I teach no such thing , yet you "QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refuge" Why don't you only stick to your view instead of mocking my view, where you invent things I never said. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
It says LIFE for LIFE, more than just rising from the dead... its says eternal LIFE for eternal LIFE. When Jesus died, the soul died,… Why do you preach that God is deadRP" When the Father expression dies the second death LAKE OF FIRE 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: PUT TO DEATH IN THE FLESH – MORTAL DEATH – DEATH OF BIOLOGY 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. R" How is this possible D” Why do you teach us that the New Testament is wrong?------------------------ R" So if God never died, the Muslims say Jesus is not God, because God cannot die? So now you are saying only a human died, and the god incarnate did not die? Can you explain this to us, the Muslim and me? D"Robert teaches that his satan killed god on the cross (powerful satan – weak / helpless god)R" I teach no such thing , yet you "QUOTE ME – Why is lying and misrepresenting your only refuge" Why don't you only stick to your view instead of mocking my view, where you invent things I never said. See the problem with making up stuff as you go along Sooner or later you forget your own lies And you dedication to serious study exposed----------------------- D"Roman Catholicism with its fallen angels and satan IS A DIFFERENT RELIGION – changed – altered from the original – corrupted from the original R" That's funny so only the JEWS have the correct doctrines do they? DUH – God gave the Torah to the Jews – they are God’s chosen people – they prepared the world for the Messiah – Jesus was a jew – all His disciples were jews – all the First Christian were all Pentecostal Messianic Jews – the CONTEXT of the GOSPEL is Jewish
Jesus says Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. REPEAT - D"Roman Catholicism with its fallen angels and satan IS A DIFFERENT RELIGION – changed – altered from the original – corrupted from the original Paul speaks a lot of amanuah, and the JEWS have invented their own righteousness. altered from the original, not support by JEWS. Prove to me that Abraham, Moses and the Prophets did NOT know God personally------------------------------ I am happy to answer your questions Dave. I have done so before. D"Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. R" And what does this verse describe for you Dave? DO you follow Pentecostal church ideas? ABSOLUTELY – all of the original Christians were Pentecostal – DUHYou posted this verse, now what does it mean to Dave, because you failed to add your discussion?All ancient Jews were Pentecostal – just more difficult to attain – those who did were called prophets1 Samuel 19:19-24 It was told Saul, saying, “Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah.” Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied. When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. Question – IS THE OLD TESTAMENT REAL OR NOT?Why is the Holy spirit coming upon prophets in the ahl real But the Holy Spirit coming upon Christians is satanic in your viewprophecytoday.uk/study/teaching-articles/item/279-ministry-of-the-prophet-schools-of-the-prophets.htmlThe 'Sons of the Prophets' and the Spirit The Spirit had come upon individuals such as Othniel, Gideon, Jephthah and Samson (Jud 3:10, 6:34, 11:29 and 13:25), but it was at the schools of the prophets that the first corporate stirrings of the Spirit came down upon the seventy elders during the time of Moses (Num 11:24-29). Why were there SCHOOLS – student that clung to the prophets trying to learn While you are at it – why do you deny ahl/OT scripture and historical fact? Then answer MY QUESTION – why did God leave the 99% in ignorance Your consistent answer that God did give all the world the Torah and all the world is God’s chosen people called Israel – IS NOT SCRIPTURAL OR HISTORICAL … I do not like your idea that God as a God of love refuses to seek the lost, and the 99% of people were not witnessed to. Don’t care if you like the reality of history and scripture Answer – why did your Feel Good God of Love leave the 99% in ignorance Or – why didn’t your Feel Good God of Love walk with them for 40 years in their wildernesses And of all your talk about the duality of the God-Head Answer this question poses by Jesus ChristMat 22:41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Yeshua asked them a question, Mat 22:42 saying, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son is He?” “David’s,” they say to Him. Mat 22:43 “Then how is it,” He says to them, “that David by the Ruach calls him ‘Lord’? Mat 22:44 For he says, ‘Adonai said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ Mat 22:45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his son?” Mat 22:46 No one was able to answer Him a word. Nor did anyone dare from that day on to question Him any longer. You claim to have the absolute correct theology – why can’t you answer basic Christian foundational questions?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2022 15:48:31 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" Is this prophesy correct or error? If this is God’s Plan – God’s design – then this world was deliberately created as a temporary placeR" You can tell by the use of the word "kainos" rather than "neos", that the world God created was intended to remain like it was for eternity. But Adam sinned causing God to react but allowing Adam's sin to spoil Adam's creation God intentionally created for Adam. But if you notice the creation, darkness is not created, as it needs to be from Isaiah 45:7, so darkness already existed on the earth, which also already existed as void and formless, because sinning angels were already there on earth, so the darkness is a consequence of their sinning, long before God created creation for Adam. This is different to you view, for you seem to think earth was created along with creation, but many verses indicate earth was made upon, not created from scratch like the rest of creation. You also deny that angels existed before humans too, billions of years before man. Not that time is matters here, because God is not subject to time. The first heaven and first earth pass away with no more sea, indicates the fullest restoration possible, before any sinning occurred. D" WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMER" I have answered this three times already? What is your problem? WHere is your answer? And yes words, and the writing of words do matter. D" So – you teach Rev 21 is NOT God’s plan You teach that God tried to make a world to las forever – but was prevented by your satan god You teach that God made a tov creation – then lost control to your satan who then corrupted God’s Plan against God’s Will You teach Rev 21 is NOT God’s plan – your weak helpless god is forced to try again by your powerful god of evilR" You are weird. Must you exclude free will from God's creation? If creatures have free will, than one can choose to sin, is this idea correct? If God created angels with free will, you would expect the angels to be recorded in scripture, as having sinned, so the angels do indeed have free will to make choices. Why even your Jubilee writing says angels asked God if they could go down. Hence choice, hence free will to leave their first estate and go down to earth, find human women attractive and begin sinning. Assuming Gen 6 is OK, with this view, which I do not agree with, but it serves my point, that angels can make decisions and thus sin, so have free will. Yet you continue to deny this. Why? It's written in Jubilees and its written in Ezekiel and its written in 1 John 3:8. Dave keeps posting" Jun 6, 2020 at 9:55am robertt said: Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. Rob replies, so Dave has no creatures that sin like humans sin, so Dave you deny Jubilees, Ezekiel and now 1 John 3:8. Are you denying Scripture for what reason? So you can pretend your a Jew? Obviously Jews do not follow their own Hebrew torah. (2) Dave also posts :- Jul 12, 2022 at 7:09am robertt said: The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. GOD’S RIGHT TO RULE THE UNIVERSE?R" Have you never read the oppose's objective? Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The opposer wishes to replace the Father as a rulerRob replies" So SIN is something GOD has to deal with, because when a creature sins the creature becomes proud and opposes everything God stands for. And God opposes the sin, and all the chaos and RA and wickedness SIN brings. D" ME – All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is ABSOLUTER" Dave teaches sin is not a big deal to God, only man sins, all other creatures cannot sin, they do as they are told to do. Funny Jubilees has angels asking God to go down, that is a choice. Hence free will to make decisions. Yes but God is in control of the angels, and allows them to sin, and punishes them for sinning. D"Dave teaches – God is Absolute – God is sovereign – God is in control – God’s Creation is tov – and from the beginning or the end of scripture was always God Plan because it is God’s WillR" How can you say "God’s Creation is tov " when the matter has inherent RA in it? and creatures intentionally designed to tempt humans to sin? D"I t was always God’s Plan from the very beginningR" SO you view is GOD wanted the creation to sin, so GOD could created it all over again brand new, with a brand new design of matter this time without natural ra and natural entropy in it, and no nature death either. Get real Dave. Seems like GOD is both flawed and perfect, wanted to created imperfection on purpose? to make man sin? are you sick? D" It is obvious – if you answer – God is in control - then all your satan nonsense is suddenly meaningless error It is obvious – if you answer – God is NOT in control - then you realize your praise the wrong godR" My answer is GOD is always in control, but the opposer in his sin, cannot see this. When a sinner sins, he becomes blind to truth and reality. So God is always in control and rational, while the sinner sinning becomes irrational and blind. If God was to wipe out the sinning creature with His love, the other creatures who also have free will would not understand. SO God have to deal with sinning carefully and purposefully as GOD does. D" all your satan nonsense is suddenly meaningless errorR" not at all. Scripture cannot be error. the torah says what the torah says. I follow torah. Dave does not, You follow Jews. SIN is something that GOD hates. SIN requires a Hebrew word that means oppose/opposer. Otherwise you have no way to describe a relationship that opposes GOD in relationship with you. Hence the word "satan" in both verb and noun forms means to "oppose" . It's the only Hebrew word that we have that means to "oppose". D" All of God’s tov creation was lost to corruption –R" Bible does not teach that, the spoiling of creation due to RA is gradual, a wearing out, a slowing down, humans groan for restored bodies. SO things are slowly falling into more disorder. Much of creation is still functional, despite the curse of sin. D" One of us teach that Jesus Christ was a man that your satan killedR" I do not teach this, second time I have posted this - why do you insist on misquoting my view? D" You teach that your satan is godR" Scripture has no such word as "god", the word "el" means "strong authority" Again you misquote me, sure I used the layman words sometimes because laypeople are used to them. When a creature sins such a sinning creature becomes a 'strong authority' and tempts other creature to also become sinning. THis is like peer group pressure. No where does this imply the sinning creature is powerful like the true elohiym power is in heaven. Get your facts right Dave. D" WHERE IS YOUR ANSWER? – NOWHERE – INSTEAD YOU OFFER ANOTHER WORD GAMER" Another copy and paste? Can't you write discussions that make sense? Dave posts my request " I cannot find any website that talks about the idea of three expressions of a heavenly Father. You will have to supply me with proof, as such a concept does not exist in the Internet. Rob replies" OK so where is your website that speaks of the Father with three expressions of the Father? You don't have one obviously....?? D" How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer? Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.R" this passage is about one member of the elohiym family showing his back to Moses, DUH. D" God the Father androgynous (neither male or female) – beyond descriptionR" I hope readers take note of your weirdness and silly ideas. In Hebrew the word "ab" translated as "father" is "masculine" in Grammar case, so it is assumed the word "heavenly Father" means one who functions with masculine love. DUH. But not Dave, he writes " the Father androgynous (neither male or female) – beyond description" is a real laugh. Sure the shape of the Father is unknown, but so the the HS shape also unknown, as NT torah says. But the personality of the Father's love is very known, it's masculine love. DUH. So stop using the term Father than Dave, your GOD is an IT, it is neither male nor female, the left hand the IT becomes feminine and the right hand the IT becomes masculine. And seeing your IT does not follow ten commandment laws of love, your IT can sin as much as IT likes. Weird picture of GOD if you ask me. Jews says God is a Father and is a king. SO Dave does not even follow what Jews support. You have an IT for a God. Gen 1:26 is another verse you ignore? D" The speaker of the word The “E” before the (=mc2)R" So your IT is just E, energy. No shape, no personality of love, description unknown. Funny Scripture describes God very well in places. Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. God functions as humans function, in the image of gender male and gender female. In the human termed ADAM both personalities of love was inside the man. D" The Glory of God – the Spirit of God – the Holy Spirit - the word with God – God through a distance 2nd Dimensional – omnipresent – foundation of creation – the womb of creation – the mother – the feminine aspect of God – the Left hand of God The medium – the ether – the matrix – force beneath the sub-atomic - the “E” that sustains all of creation “E” on the other side of (E=mc2 – as C2 – ethereal - invisible)R" Who's playing word games now? So many complex meaningless words....you write... Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there:
So the HS /wisdom/feminine love was there when the masculine love/YHWH was creating. Simple, both divine beings were both present from eternity, uncaused. D" Androgynous God – beyond man’s ability to comprehend – Called HE/HIM out of respectR" NO Dave, the "Ab" is called "father" because GOD told the writers to write "ab" and it comes with human word meanings humans understand for a reason. Where do you think Hebrew came from? From GOD. The word "Ab" means "provider" not "father", so the Most HIgh is our "provider" makes more sense, and we humans have assumed He looks like us, as a "Father". A mute point really. D"Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer?R" Easy, go to where the word "imrah" is used. The Greek spoils the "imrah" by using "logus" instead. Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. There "names of the divine family" here Dave. In Hebrew the Son is "imrah" the Father is "eloah" and the Mother is "ruwach", all three present here. This word "imrah" is supposed to be used in John 1:1 Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Imrah. D" My example – a coin 3D man can never see the whole coin 3D man can see the head’s side 3D man can see the tail’s side But there is only one coinR" OK where is a website that agrees with you over your three expressions idea? D" More of Roberts word game 5 Plumbers come to do a job – which one is THE PLUMBER There is an American in Jail in Australia - for drug smuggling There is an American in Jail in Iran - for preaching Christianity Are all Americans drug smugglers – or Pastors – or drug smuggling Pastors?R" Who's playing word games ? Can't you write a serious discussion? "sons of GOD" refer to any creature that follows GOD. both human "Joh 1:12, Ro 8:14, Php 2:15, 1Jo 3:1, 1Jo 3:2" Also angel "Jude and 2 Peter". What is the problem here? ---------------------------- Dave wants me to watch a video " John 1:1 How the Greek text argues that Jesus is God (and why it doesn't mean "Jesus is a God") 2:29 definite or indefinite article. noun to describe quality to another noun "word was God" R" I do not say Jesus is "a elohiyim" , but Jesus is "elohiym" , the term "elohiym does not mean "god" anyway. Jeff Benner says the term means " power" or as Rob says " a family power". Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. This passage explains John 1:1 better. D" Why do you preach that God is deadR" elohiym cannot die in the sense of man can, because elohiym is only living. The dying is understood as separation. In Ps 22 we read the two el separate themselves from Yashua, their Son. The separation causes a dissolution of power , when we humans term "death". The Son was separated from the Father and the HS, hence "experienced the second death." D" See the problem with making up stuff as you go along Sooner or later you forget your own lies And you dedication to serious study exposedR" I do not make up stuff, I have thought out my view long before I met you, and you do not stretch me into bounds I do not already know. What your doing is misquoting me. D" DUH – God gave the Torah to the Jews – they are God’s chosen people – they prepared the world for the Messiah – Jesus was a jew – all His disciples were jews – all the First Christian were all Pentecostal MessianicR" Yes correct But OT Jews do not understand amanuah, and so the NT Jews are trained under Yasha the Jew to experience amanuah correctly. Amanuah is about using power from Yasha the Jew who is divine from the heavenly elohiym. Who is elohiym. Dave assumes elohiym means ONE GOD or ONE EL. It's does not. ELohiym is a family power, as any pagan notion of elohiym tells you. Dagon is a father deity along with other deities as well. Roman had Jupiter along with other deities, and Greek had Zeus along with other family deites. The idea of family gods goes back to when elohiym was first used by God. Jews assume elohiym is a solitary power coming from ONE YHWH. But close inspection shows elohiym is a family power and they are two YHWH, in heaven not ONE YHWH as we assume. See Gen 19. D" Prove to me that Abraham, Moses and the Prophets did NOT know God personallyR" I said JEWS, I did not say Moses and Abraham did I? Must you always disagree with me. Many Jews did not understand amanuah, hence invented their own religion. Just as many Jews do not read Ezekiel 28, many Jews do not read Daniel 8 either. Or Isaiah 53. D" ABSOLUTELY – all of the original Christians were Pentecostal – DUHR" SO you practice speaking in tongues than Dave? Many Messanic assembles practice glossalia which is NOT what speaking in tongues is about. D" Question – IS THE OLD TESTAMENT REAL OR NOT?R" Yes real, Nothing wrong with speaking in tongues, just have a problem with speaking glossalia. D" I do not like your idea that God as a God of love refuses to seek the lost, and the 99% of people were not witnessed to.R" A light source beams to all the earth. Israel was a light source, the light went everywhere. We have evidence that in King Solomon's time the world was touched by his light, even the USA and Africa. D" why did your Feel Good God of Love leave the 99% in ignoranceR" He didn't. D" Answer this question poses by Jesus ChristR" The YHWH David bowed to as his LORD, chooses to gamete with David's seed and become David's literal son later on through Mary. Jews do not understand this. D" You claim to have the absolute correct theology – why can’t you answer basic Christian foundational questions?R" You cannot answer basic foundational questions. still waiting. 1 JOhn 3:8 Who is the shedim that sins like humans sin?Dave has no idea, nor do Jews. Jews do not support all of the Hebrew torah correctly, as the amanuah example shows, but some Jews do, but most Jews don't. They are swayed by cultural traditions. And Dave, you are caught in their traditions of men too. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2022 23:04:39 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" Is this prophesy correct or error? If this is God’s Plan – God’s design – then this world was deliberately created as a temporary place R" You can tell by the use of the word "kainos" rather than "neos", that the world God created was intended to remain like it was for eternity. But Adam sinned causing God to react OH – so it wasn’t your satan god that cause all creation to corrupt – it was man For 3 years you have argued it was satan’s fault – satan deceived Eve Your satan kathistēmi-ed Eve – ruled her – forced her to sin At least you finally agree with scripture – Sin entered the world through Eve (the feminine) Rom 5:12 You teach that God tried to make a world to las forever – but was prevented by your satan god You teach that God made a tov creation – then lost control to your satan who then corrupted God’s Plan against God’s Will You teach Rev 21 is NOT God’s plan – your weak helpless god is forced to try again by your powerful god of evil R" You are weird. Must you exclude free will from God's creation? If creatures have free will, than one can choose to sin, is this idea correct?Make up your mind – God’s Plan all along – or NOT?If you say God say – God’s tov creation is changed against God’s Will – so God has to change His original Plan – then you teach God is Not in control------------------ This is different to you view, for you seem to think earth was created along with creation, but many verses indicate earth was made upon, not created from scratch like the rest of creation. Robert cannot tell the difference between Gen 1:1 earth and Gen 1:9 planet Earth Dirt and dry land are the same word – earth – so Robert is all confused You also deny that angels existed before humans too, billions of years before man. Not that time is matters here, because God is not subject to time.The Host of heaven were all created on Day 1 – angels – man – and archon Gen 2:4 These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens; If God created angels with free will, IF – IF – IF – Angels do not have free will Orthodox Jewishwww.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmonly man has been endowed with the inclination for both good and bad. And only man has been given free choice to choose either one. An angel, on other hand, has no evil inclination and therefore no free choice. This would seem to mean that an angel is something like a robot, which cannot rebel or sin. Even the oft-cited example of the Satan as a rogue angel is a gross misunderstanding. Satan is merely the name of an angel whose divinely assigned task is to seduce people towards sin. What is said here is correct – but is not the whole storyMainstream Judaismoutreachjudaism.org/if-angels-dont-have-freewill-do-they-know-the-difference-between-good-and-evil/Do angels possess the knowledge of good and evil? As it turns out they do, and one angel was tasked to seduce man into sin. Angels possess the knowledge that man only acquired following the sin in the Garden. Angels do not act upon this knowledge because they do not have free will; they have no independent agency. Angels are, however, supernal beings. They are not subject of the material limitations of death. Moreover, angels have no carnal needs; they do not crave physical pleasure. It is in this sphere that man stands alone as a unique being in the universe. Unlike animals, he fully apprehends the difference between good and evil. On the other hand, like animals, man craves physical pleasure. 1- angels (messengers) are intelligent and know tov and ra 2- one angel (messenger) was tasked to seduce man into sin – archon – the serpent – the Beast – created for a function – created for a purpose 3- man only acquired following the sin in the Garden – the only sin was Eve’s - Rom 5:12 4- they do not have free will; they have no independent agency Correct – cows are only cows / ants are only ants / baboons are only baboons – and they just do what they do Angels (messengers of the Lord) – serve and praise – that is what they do Archon – the Beast – are destroying angels – shedim – they do what they do Man is the creature that can chooseDo angels have free will? - CARM.orgcarm.org › about-angels › do-angels-have-free-... Angels possess free will, but their wills are consistent with their natures. Good angels choose good. Bad angels choose bad. YES – this is an intelligent thing to say Their will is limited to their created nature It is the nature of angels to serve and praise It is the nature of the Beast – to destroy / entropy It is the nature of man to PONDER THE CHOICEBut any Roman Christendom web-site will support Roman Catholic Fallen angels And two words – of a failed simile – taken out of context is Robert’s only proof ---------------------- WHAT AN INSULT TO THE CREATORIsa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, Isa 45:5 I am Adonai—there is no other. Besides Me there is no God. Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: YOUR TWO GOD RELIGION IS NOT TORAH(google) Which religion has dualistic cosmology?Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism or "Mazdayasna" is one of the world's oldest continuously-practiced religions, based on the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster. It has a dualistic cosmology of good and evil and an eschatology which predicts the ultimate conquest of evil by good. Ahura Mazda (meaning 'Wise Lord'). He is compassionate, just, and is the creator of the universe. Angra Mainyu, (Avestan: “Destructive Spirit”) Middle Persian Ahriman, the evil, destructive spirit in the dualistic doctrine of Zoroastrianism. BINGO – CALLED OUT BY RICHARD 3 YEARS AGO-------------------------------------- Rob replies" So SIN is something GOD has to deal with, YEP - מות תמות - mûth (present infinity) + mûth (future perfect imperitive) But – GOD IS FAIR 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad. because when a creature sins the creature becomes proud Really – You have spent all your efforts denying thisThe Hypostasis of the ArchonsOpening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'. sinned against the entirety – Entropy of rocks, dirt, molecules, and stars Gen 1:2 = DARKNESS - IGNORANCE------------------ Rob replies, so Dave has no creatures that sin like humans sin, so Dave you deny Jubilees, Ezekiel and now 1 John 3:8. Are you denying Scripture for what reason? So you can pretend your a Jew? Obviously Jews do not follow Ellen White torah. Correct Judaism – uses Enoch to address Gen 6If – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture D"ME – All God’s Plan – All God’s Will – because God is ABSOLUTE R" Dave teaches sin is not a big deal to God, only man sins, all other creatures cannot sin, they do as they are told to do. Correct Judaism – uses Enoch to address Gen 6 If – you do not understand what happened in Gen 6 Then – you will not understand scripture----------------- D"Dave teaches – God is Absolute – God is sovereign – God is in control – God’s Creation is tov – and from the beginning or the end of scripture was always God Plan because it is God’s Will R" How can you say "God’s Creation is tov " when the matter has inherent RA ENTROPY / DARKNESS in it? and creatures intentionally designed to tempt humans to sin? TEST CREATIONI say it because God proclaims itGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. ------------------- D"It was always God’s Plan from the very beginning R" SO you view is GOD wanted the creation to sin, Either – God knew His own creation – and knew what was going to happen – and He Planned for it OR – God tried to make a tov world – but your satan denied Him Either – God is in control – and it is all God’s Plan – all God’s Will OR – your satan is in control and bosses God around – forcing God to react and change his Plan D"It is obvious – if you answer – God is in control - then all your satan nonsense is suddenly meaningless error It is obvious – if you answer – God is NOT in control - then you realize your praise the wrong god ---------------------- D"All of God’s tov creation was lost to corruption – R" Bible does not teach that, the spoiling of creation due to RAYou teach that all your vegetarian sharks changed You teach that all creation changedR” the spoiling of creation due to … a gradual, a wearing out, a slowing downTHE DEFINITION OF ENTROPY – word man------------------ Rob replies" OK so where is your website that speaks of the Father with three expressions of the Father? D"How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer? Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. R" this passage is about one member of the elohiym family showing his back to Moses, DUH. YES – ONLY ONE TRUE GODD"The speaker of the word The “E” before the (=mc2) R" So your IT is just E, energy. No shape, no personality of love, description unknown. YOU ARE INSULTINGD"Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. How do you get 3 different gods from this passage? – Where is your answer? R" Easy, go to where the word "imrah" is used. The Greek spoils the "imrah" by using "logus" instead. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REWRITE SCRIPTUE – change the words to fit Ellen Whites doctrine ---------------------------- Dave wants me to watch a video " John 1:1 How the Greek text argues that Jesus is God (and why it doesn't mean "Jesus is a God") 2:29 definite or indefinite article. - noun to describe quality to another noun - "word was God" R" I do not say Jesus is "a elohiyim" , but Jesus is "elohiym" , the term "elohiym does not mean "god" anyway. Jeff Benner says the term means "power" or as Rob says " a family power". ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REWRITE SCRIPTUE – change the words to fit Ellen Whites doctrineD"Why do you preach that God is dead R" elohiym cannot die in the sense of man can, 1 Peter 3:18-20 – YOU INSIST SCRIPUTURE IS WRONG – Jesus Christ died an eternal death – Lake of FireD"DUH – God gave the Torah to the Jews – they are God’s chosen people – they prepared the world for the Messiah – Jesus was a Jew – all His disciples were Jews – all the First Christian were all Pentecostal Messianic R" Yes correct So why do you teach everything they believes is Jewish error and teach a replacement religion D"ABSOLUTELY – all of the original Christians were Pentecostal – DUH R" SO you practice speaking in tongues than Dave? NOT THE ONLY GIFT - MOCKER-------------------- D"Question – IS THE OLD TESTAMENT REAL OR NOT? R" Yes real, Nothing wrong with speaking in tongues, just have a problem with speaking glossalia. YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SPEAKING IN TONGES YOU JUST HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SPEAKING IN TONGUESAnd you wonder why anyone would doubt your sincerityD"I do not like your idea that God as a God of love refuses to seek the lost, and the 99% of people were not witnessed to. R" A light source beams to all the earth. Israel was a light source, the light went everywhere. We have evidence that in King Solomon's time the world was touched by his light, even the USA and Africa. D"why did your Feel Good God of Love leave the 99% in ignorance R" He didn't. So you teach – all the ancient world was Jewish – both history and scripture is wrong - there were no other tribes worshiping other gods AMAZING – so intellectual And you wonder why anyone would doubt your sincerity
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2022 17:17:46 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Shabbot D" Make up your mind – God’s Plan all along – or NOT?
If you say God say – God’s tov creation is changed against God’s Will – so God has to change His original Plan – then you teach God is Not in controlR" Why do you cling to extreme views? Of course GOD knows the end from the beginning and planned his reactions to actions, long before sinners sin. In fact we see from Scripture, GOD creates RA, so even the sinning cannot exist in God's world, unless GOD is always ultimately in control. But you negate the idea that GOD deals with SIN. The first creatures to sin were the cherubims. You deny this. You cannot answer who were the shedim who sinned like humans sin, in 1 John 3:8. --------------------- D" Robert cannot tell the difference between Gen 1:1 earth and Gen 1:9 planet Earth Dirt and dry land are the same word – earth – so Robert is all confusedR" Have not noticed this before. Thank you. Ge 1:9 ...let the dry <yabbashah> land appear <ra'ah>: and it was so. 10 And God <'elohiym> called <qara'> the dry <yabbashah> land Earth <'erets> What does "yabbashah" mean, that is eventually called "earth"? Ne 9:11 And thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; "yabbashah" means "dry" and so far always has supplied the word "ground" or "land". Jon 1:13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them. Why does KJV translate "dry" adding "land or ground" and here they translate "land" only? Jon 2:10 ¶ And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. (KJV) The word "land" is added to the text. Jeff Benner ) 7FM (7FM YBSh) ac: Dry co: ? ab: ?: A dried up and withered land. V) 7FM (7FM Y-BSh) — Dry: To be dried up as well as withered, ashamed or confused. [freq. 78] (vf: Paal, Hiphil, Piel) |kjv: dry up, withered, confounded, ashamed, dry, wither away, clean, shamed, shamefully| {str: 3001} Nm) 7FM (7FM Y-BSh) — Dry: [freq. 9] |kjv: dry| {str: 3002} Nf1) )WFM ()WFM YB-ShH) — Dry: A dry land. [freq. 14] |kjv: dry, dry land, dry ground, land| {str: 3004} Nf2) 8WFM (8WFM YB-ShT) — Dry: A dry land. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 3] |kjv: dry, land| {str: 3006, 3007} Ancient Hebrew " "active hands at home pressed from the Divine Being Behold" The "active hands at home pressed" is the meaning of "dry" to "dry up" or "wither away". Strange? -------------------------- When I am stuck in understanding the Hebrew, I do consult EGW writings, as my Hebrew English translator.... than I make sure reading Hebrew is correct... ellenwhite.org/media/document/10078cannot copy and paste document sentences This website is the best so far in precise summaries www.grisda.org/earth-antedated-by-other-created-worldsOther Worlds Already Existed When Satan Rebelled " Satan was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong. Some course must be pursued to uproot him from their affections. God’s government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the created worlds; and Satan thought that if he could carry the intelligences of heaven with him in rebellion, he could also carry with him the other worlds. — RH March 9, 1886". The Controversy Not to be Taken to Other Worlds The controversy was not to be taken into the other worlds of the universe; but it was to be carried on in the very world, on the very same field, that Satan claimed as his. — RH March 9, 1886.Universe in Existence When the World was Created Would it not have cast a reflection upon God if He had destroyed him [Satan], he who had taken hold of the very heart of the universe, and the world that was created? — Ms. 8, 1888. The Hosts of Heaven Created Before the Earth The Son of God had wrought the Father’s will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. — PP 36. (Published in 1890.)Lucifer Insinuated Doubts to Heavenly Beings He [Lucifer in heaven before creation week] began to insinuate doubts concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that though laws might be necessary for the inhabitants of the worlds, angels, being more exalted, needed no such restraint. — PP 37. Inhabitants of Other Worlds in Existence When Rebellion Began God’s government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the worlds that He had created; and Lucifer had concluded that if he could carry the angels of heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also all the worlds. — PP 41.2 (See also GC 497.)Rob" We see these other unfallen worlds and the unfallen "sons of God" in Job, which state these other unfallen worlds existed long before Creation upon Earth existed. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? "Morning stars" are "cherubims". "Sons of God" are "unfallen creatures of unfallen worlds, similar to humans, but unlike humans, also have free will to sin, but choose not to sin" Being a poetry parallel, these two groups of creatures are both sinless and unfallen, have free will to sin, but choose not to sin. " The inhabitants of heaven and of the worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice of God in the destruction of Satan. — PP 42. (See also GC 499.) Man Was Created a Free Moral Agent Like the Inhabitants of Other Worlds Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience. — PP 331, 332. The Plan of Salvation for the Good of all the Worlds God Had Created Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determined counsel of God that man should be created and endowed with power to do the divine will. The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing, not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. — ST Feb. 13, 1893.STATEMENTS CONCERNING THIS EARTH AND OTHER WORLDS Millions of Worlds Are Inhabited Should all the inhabitants of this little world refuse obedience to God, He would not be left without glory. He could sweep every mortal from the face of the earth in a moment, and create a new race to people it and glorify His name. God is not dependent on man for honor. He could marshal the starry host of heaven, the millions of worlds above, to raise a song of honor and praise and glory to his name. — RH March 1, 1881. Ellen White Given a View of Other Worlds The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. . . . The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. . . . Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. . . . I begged my attending angel to let me remain in that place. . . . Then the angel said, “You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.” — EW 39, 40. (Published in 1882.)God’s Creative Work Finished God has finished His creative work, but His energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of His creation. — ST, March 20, 1884. Earth Is Small Compared to Other Worlds How grateful we should be that, notwithstanding this earth is so small amid the created worlds, God notices even us. The nations are before Him as the drop in the bucket, and as the small dust in the balance. — RH March 9, 1886. Unfallen Beings See the Controversy in This World Every eye in the unfallen universe is bent upon those who profess to be Christ’s followers. Here in this atom of a world, an earnest warfare is going on. — RH Sept. 29, 1891.Diversity in the Universe Forms a Perfect Whole The universe contains one great masterpiece of infinite Wisdom in innumerable diversities of His great works, which, in their matchless variety, form a perfect whole. — YI Aug. 19, 1897.
The World but an Atom in God’s Vast Domain This world is but a little atom in the vast domain over which God presides. — TM 324. (Reprinted from Sp. Test., Series A, No. 8, 1897.)The Plan of Salvation Set up Before the World Was Made God and Christ knew from the beginning of the apostasy of Satan and of the fall of Adam through the deceptive power of the apostate. The plan of salvation was designed to redeem the fallen race, to give them another trial. Christ was appointed to the office of Mediator from the creation of God, set up from everlasting to be our substitute and surety. Before the world was made, it was arranged that the divinity of Christ should be enshrouded in humanity. — 1SM 250Rob" Just because God knows all things, does not mean GOD intentionally planned to bring SIN into the unfallen universe. But God controls all things, including the SIN problem, when and if SIN might come, God had solutions to the exercise of free will. This World a Speck in Comparison to the Universe In this speck of a world, the heavenly universe manifests the greatest interest: for Jesus paid an infinite price for the souls of its inhabitants. — HP 359He endured the cross, despised the shame. He made it of small account in consideration of the results that he was working out in behalf of, not only the inhabitants of this speck of a world, but the whole universe, every world which God had created. — RH, July 5, 1887. Rob" Hmm? Cannot find out if other universes also exist, and whether earth existed before the Creation over earth, after Lucifer sinned and before Adam sinned. ----------------------- Rob's conclusion" I get the earth was formless and void, and a place for the sinning angels to be banished to. But they were also free to visit other unfallen worlds and tempt them to sin, but these sinning angels could not tempt them to fall, like they had fallen. "yabbashah" "The active hands at home pressed. Behold the Divine Being" God called the "yabbashah" earth "erets" only after the "yabbashah" apppears out the the "mayim". It seems the "Wet/Dry" or "liquid/solid" picture appears here, the planet was once formless and void, a picture of liquid magma the "mayim"? And the "dry land" appeared " termed "erets" or "land". Thus the "dry land" floats upon the "fluid magma", or as "blocks of wood floating upon water". So in the beginning the "dry land" "termed yabbashah" was formless and void. A picture of barren cold rock, disordered and in chaos. Ps 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. The "dry land "yabbashah" termed "erets" was called forth "chuwl" like a child in birth, so the "dry land" came forth from the "fluid magma" termed "mayim". So when GOD arrived to visit the cold planet, formless and void, the planet became hot and fluid once again, and this time God made a Creation over it, for a purpose... The "world" "tebel" has existed before "erets" came forth, thus we have a planet home for the sinning angels, existing before the sinning angels sinned, and existing before the Creation over this planet. ------------------------ So looking at the Hebrew we can conclude:- Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. R" who is "me", if YHWH is the Most High, than "me" is the Son of the Most High, they were together as one from the beginning, from eternity, before the Father's works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. R" Not only the SON from eternity as divinity uncaused, but also wisdom, the feminine love pictured as the HS was also present. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: "Wisdom is called forth, as a child in childbirth. Why? The medium was created for a reason during Creation over the pre-existing planet, for a reason, to deal with the darkness, formless and void already on this planet, from the place where sinning angels lived. The medium is able to cope with sinless things and sinning things, as GOD creates RA, the Creation over this planet included but also excluded provision for SIN should and if it happened after mankind was created, the first creatures to have been created with free will, after some of the angels had sinned. 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. R"the dry land termed earth" is made, not created. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: R" the dry land termed earth, rests upoon foundations, that pre-existed Creation over it. 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 ¶ Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. R" It seems from Scripture "The "dry land "yabbashah" termed "erets" was called forth "chuwl" like a child in birth, so the "dry land" came forth from the "fluid magma" termed "mayim", tells us this "world" pre-existed CREATION over this world, which was used as a home for the sinning angels that sin. ------------------------- R" I welcome your discussion to your idea, Dave; that earth was created from scratch. Where is earth to which the sinning messengers in Rev 12, were cast unto? Your answer is to involve all of the creations and universes, making time meaningless,a nd thus the sinning angels no time to gradually develop their sin, which they did not understand at first, your 6 second bustle makes no sense. -------------------------------- D" The Host of heaven were all created on Day 1 – angels – man – and archon Gen 2:4 These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;R" your lack of discussion astounds me? Care to detail? Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. R" COuld be a reference to physical works of creation and thus all host of physical work was finished. Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And additional physical work is added to the other six days, when God rests, so making time exist as a special time , called Ceasing Day, the Sabbath. Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Time becomes a generation of time in a single day, from this Sabbath onwards, thus a reference to time, rather than your view, to future and every spirit being created. The word "and" means to join this verse to the other verse. Ge 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. Again physical works are detailed, the same theme, of growing in time. D" IF – IF – IF – Angels do not have free willR" OK Dave, who is the shedim than that sin like humans sin in 1 John 3:8? Still waiting for your answer? D" Orthodox Jewish www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmR" I remind you not all things Jews write about is trustworthy and inspired. Only the torah is inspired because GOD moved holy men to write only what God wanted written. Ezekiel, Jude and Peter and John were such inspired writers. D" What is said here is correct – but is not the whole storyR" What is said here is false, Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Jesus taught the same idea Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. So stop listening to false teachings. D" Mainstream Judaism outreachjudaism.org/if-angels-dont-have-freewill-do-they-know-the-difference-between-good-and-evil/R" SO you teach other writings are more important than the torah? Which is your Authority Dave? D" Do angels have free will? - CARM.org carm.org › about-angels › do-angels-have-free-... Angels possess free will, but their wills are consistent with their natures. Good angels choose good. Bad angels choose bad.R" Why follow such inconsistent dribble? Not inspired. D" But any Roman Christendom web-site will support Roman Catholic Fallen angels And two words – of a failed simile – taken out of context is Robert’s only proofR" You admit to mocking torah, you mock inspired prophets like Ezekiel and John. Who are the shedim Dave who sin like humans sin, in 1 John 3:8? D" YOUR TWO GOD RELIGION IS NOT TORAHR" no point discussing error until you answer one error at a time. Who are the shedim Dave who sin like humans sin, in 1 John 3:8? D" YOU ARE INSULTINGR" sorry, I didn't like writing it either. D" ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REWRITE SCRIPTUE R" Many Jews, messanic ones admit imrah is meant to be in JOhn 1:1, ask them, D" ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REWRITE SCRIPTUE R" I do no such thing, even Rabbi Davis says we are to study the Hebrew and Greek carefully. D" So why do you teach everything they believes is Jewish error and teach a replacement religionR" Who says I do, not all Jewish stuff is wrong. D" YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH SPEAKING IN TONGES YOU JUST HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SPEAKING IN TONGUESR" Really Dave, get real. Nothing wrong with speaking in tongues, just have a problem with speaking glossalia. Try looking up my word meanings? Glossalaia is gibberish nonsense sounds, a tongue is a known language, or unknown language that follows known rules of communication, such a subject has been studied by science. D" So you teach – all the ancient world was Jewish – both history and scripture is wrong - there were no other tribes worshiping other godsR" You forget free will. Noah founded Chinese and they lived the torah they knew correctly for over 1000 years, but eventually they lost the truth and no longer support the Shing Dai correctly. So they worship now other gods, DUH. And all this happen long before a Jew even existed. Only the Hebrew has existed since Adam, the term means those who cross over, hence they were once worldly, and now they cross over to God's side. You need to be more kind, and start reading torah with me with respect and kindness. Otherwise we are we writing to each other? I ask you one simple question you cannot answer because you do not support the torah. Who are the shedim Dave who sin like humans sin, in 1 John 3:8? This answer requires you to abandon Jewish talmud and support only Hebrew torah. As long as you deny sola Scripture , you remain confused. Shalom
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