Fourth discussion "Considering what is poetry, how we deal with Bible poetry"?
Using the poetry example in Ezekiel 28.
D"
Cool - finally a meaningful discussion with youR" glad you are happy ?
---------1-----------definitions of terms
D"
I use a dictionary – so that I am on the same page as the rest of the intelligent worldR" Hmm? I like to learn my own definitions, the world can fit into me, not me into the world.
I see similes as the only poetry term you need. I do not like fancy inventions like metaphor, which is a simile anyway without the use of "As" or "like".
And the world agrees similes are metaphors, so its a word game played by scholars. And I dislike scholars, because they preach they are learned, while the cattle are unlearned.
-----------2-------how do we read poetry
Eze 23:20
For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh { is as} the flesh of asses, and whose issue { is like} the issue of horses.D3"
It does NOT mean these men are horsesR4" CORRECT
but the verse you supplied is interesting, the translators ADD "as" and ADD" like"
My point is Hebrew word not see
their poetry requiring "AS" or "LIKE". (hence inventions like metaphors and similes are inventions of men...)
A "poetry picture" can be seen when the pictures do not match exactly the pictures in the verse, so it must be a SIMILE picture, similar to but not the same as the picture in the verse.
The pictures here is a WOMAN SINNING SEXUALLY with LUSTFUL SINS.
The next picture is AN ASS and a HORSE.
So the way male horse seek female horses and female horses seek male horses with their animal desires to have sex lustfully, is seen as a SIMILE to how woman seek men and with lustful intent have sexual intercourse with them.
Never are the two pictures to be combined, poetry never does that. However secular poetry does this outside of Scripture, and this we have invented metaphors for this .
For example
D" T
here were time when I thought betty was a bitch - metaphorR" correct Dave, but you do not see this kind of thing in Bible poetry. GOD uses the poetry to make things we don't understand, using words we do understand.
Sometimes Jews go to extremes... I found this the other day
Ps 51:7
¶ Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Is GOD water? My answer to this idea is NO. Is God a metaphor of water? My answer is still NO.
However if one asks is GOD a simile of Water, I could say yes to this idea.
Water is a powerful simile for how the various functions of GOD can be explained, but its a far stretch to make GOD and water into an exact nature or a exact comparison.
So when GOD washes away our sins, this is meant to be a simile. As water washes away dirt, God can remove our sinning from His relationship with us.
I do not follow world definitions of terms, I follow
how the Bible poetry is used and the Bible uses of poetry dictates my terms, hence I never use a world dictionary, so we are very different already in where our authority for word games comes from.
D"
Christ is the branch – metaphor – why don’t you argue Christ is a stickAnswer – precept upon precept, line upon line scripture will not support itR" correct, but the Bible never uses the term "Christ the branch" hence the metaphor is not intended.
Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall
the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious,
Jesus is written in Scripture as a "branch".
Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and
a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Jesus is written in Scripture as a "branch".
Joh 15:2 Every
branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Humans saved by the branch are grafted into the Branch and thus we abide as branches to the Branch.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a
tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
The saved are also SIMILES of trees, as well as SIMILES of branches.
SO one has to fathom the SIMILES or Bible poetry pictures, so we fathom the object lessons of Scripture.
I love this type of thing, and
love writing poetry complex poetry full of similes and as many word pictures as I can packed into it.
To appreciate this discussion more, I would like you to post a poem or poetry passage you wrote long ago for us to consider.
-------------2------------
D"
Sure – the whole passage is about a man – King of Tyre
Are there metaphors and similes – sureR" OK how do you recognize similes or poetry pictures in Ezekiel 28 Dave?
D"
None of them rewrite the base text away from the King of TyreR" DIdn't say a SIMILE does that, each picture is independent to the other picture, but both pictures run parallel to each other.
D"
This is about man – every Jewish commentary talks of man’s SIN – Eve’s SINR" Yes that is ONE SIMILE picture, agreed
D"
Man created at the time of creation – Day 1 – host of heavenR" Man was NOT CREATED on day 1, bible never says that, never speaks of "Created"
only speaks of "host of heaven" meaning what?
Man was created on day 6 of creation is clear from the Bible text.
You have to
prove to me Man was "
bara" on
day one....go ahead and do this?
Otherwise man was only created on day 6.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man
Ge 1:27 So God created man
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man
When did these terms get deployed? "make" "create" and "form",
day 6.
-----------3------------
Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cheruv. I placed you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among stones of fire.
D"
This was NEVER the Beast of Revelation
The Beast of Revelation was never God’s friend – man was/isR" Before you begin ...
Is this passage a simile of some other poetry picture?
Answer must be yes, since you are using it already.
But you say it doesn't apply to the Beast of Revelation?
Why doesn't it Dave?
D"
The Beast of Revelation was never God’s friend R" Why can't you call it by the Hebrew word used here "anointed cherub"
Thus the cherub was once loved by GOD.
Don't jump the gun with your application "
The Beast of Revelation was never God’s friend "
Do you agree this verse is talking about a cherub was once loved by GOD?
D"Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
D"
This was NEVER the Beast of RevelationI
S NOT a statement about the Beast of Revelation who appeared in a plurality ready to devour
R" DO you agree this way once a cherub loved by God and is no longer loved by GOD, because the cherub has unrighteousness in him?
Stick to the facts of the verse, and the SIMILE being presented.
King Tyre also was once loved by God and is no longer loved by God because God has found unrighteousness in King Tyre? DO you agree with the other SIMILE picture.
Prince Cherub also was once loved by God and is no longer loved by God because God has found unrighteousness in Prince Cherub? DO you agree with this other SIMILE picture.
D"
The metaphor is all about man – given the garden to keepR" Dave a SIMILE poses TWO poetry pictures, never ONE poetry picture, otherwise its not poetry to begin with.
Here is a song I made from poetry based as closely I could to the Prayer of David 23.
My Saviour feeds me, day by day;
He lays me down, in His green way;
He leads me to the Spirit's side,
Where I drink of Him inside.
He turns my soul, and guides my way;
In well worn paths, I do not stray,
He straightens me, I hold His Name,
Tenderly we show God's Fame.
Yea I walk, through a steep valley,
Shadows of death, flow all round me,
I have no fear, no evil see,
Your branch and staff comfort me.
A table set, facing His pressers;
My fattened head, with oil dressers,
My cup is soaked, with Your presence,
Our running flows, in righteousness.
His goodness shows, mercy in flow,
Our living days, with Him will glow,
I will sit down, in the house of the Lord,
Eternal days, praising GOD.R" There are many similes in this poem, pictures of functions that run parallel to each other.
My Saviour feeds me, day by day;
He lays me down, in His green way;
"
A sheep shepherd herds his sheep, calling them by name to follow Him out to today's pastures and lays down the sheep in the green grass the Shepherd has selected, later the Shepherd will lead them to a watering hole, maybe draw out the water and call them into his coral of thorn bushes for the night, sleeping himself in the opening passage with His sheep. "
This is ONE poetry picture from the opening prayer of David number 23.
The other poetry picture parallels this
A Saviour who is DIVINE but also HUMAN comes to earth to care for HUMAN, calling them by name to follow Him, and once these SELECTED humans follow, they are led out to today's witness and the humans speak and do and love other humans in the community setting the Saviour has selected for these Selected Humans. Later the Saviour will lead them to a a REFRESHING PLACE, maybe draw out the HOLY SPIRIT and thus breathe REFRESHMNENT unto the Selected Humans, listening to the joys and pitfalls of their experiences with joy. Later at night, the Saviour places the humans to sleep under the protection of the Saviour who Himself is sleeping near His selected humans who follow His voice and hear His voice.
Once you have two poetry pictures, the parallels run as deep as you wish to experience them.
But you must keep the parallels separate, a human is never a sheep, and GOD is never a shepherd. However the two pictures parallel each other and function along similar lines.
D"
The entire passage does not fit your satan god – and two standalone words do not a doctrine makeR" Again you jump to hasty conclusions, stick to the evidence one verse at a time.
D"
Precept upon precept, line upon line – the 23+49 verses about your satan do not support your doctrineR" Again you jump to hasty conclusions, stick to the evidence one verse at a time.
D"
The reality of textual variants = to pick two standalone words as an entire doctrine is problematicR" Who says I do, the Bible is full of poetry parallels about the opposing elohiym. Dozens of them.
You just don't see them.
D"
You have a doctrine base on two standalone words – taken out of contextR" Well we will see. Based on two Hebrew words? hardly.
RP"
Please explain to me why you do not consider the word "cherub" as a creature?D"
I have never said this – stop putting words in my mouthR" good, than the word "cherub" can be considered a SIMILE running with the "humans" in the poetry of Ezekiel 28.
D"
Cherubs are one of the 9/10 types / classifications of angelsR" I disagree with that assumption, no proof. Only one class of cherub makes many functional descriptors of messengers. a Jewish idea not based on Hebrew words of facts. Many of the inventions refer to functions not created creatures,
the term "bara" is missing.
Another topic, outside of this topic.
D"
YES – they guard / protect the ThroneR" DO not get bogged down in Hebrew words,
cherub means angel
Adam means human.
DO you get nit picking and say all humans are DIRT people? And all they do it eat dirt, poo dirt and die as dirt? So the word "adam" means DIRT, does not spoil the beautiful functions of the human.
---------------
Dave mocks and I reply, GREAT, I am glad you understand how to use SIMILES
------------
RP: "
This poetry passage is a parallel of humans who claim to be GOD, sitting in the seat of GOD and pretending to be GOD. This is what a opposing elohiym power is.D"
King of Tyre is a good example
Pharaoh is a good example
Caesar is a good example
NOT one of them changed their form or functionR" Hang on Dave
Augustus was a good emperor ruling over Jesus time
Nero was a bad emperor maybe good in the beginning and became bad
Solomon was good in the beginning became bad and later became good again?
So what
do you mean "changed their form or function" ? You never discuss do you....
Why do you do this?
D"
NOT ONE OF THEM BECAME THE GOD OF EVILR" Who says they did?
But they can become a god of sinning that opposes GOD can't they?
The word "hey" means "Behold the Being!" So God wants to put out a sinning creature to us who is the first to have sinned.
Correct they did not become THE_FIRST to have sinned, they were only ONE of many others who have sinned.
DO you agree with me?
----------another post-----
Please do one post, not make this more difficult
D"
TRUTH – the metaphor never changes the base textR" base text?
since when is poetry with a base text?
A sheep shepherd herds his sheep, calling them by name to follow Him out to today's pastures and lays down the sheep in the green grass the Shepherd has selected, later the Shepherd will lead them to a watering hole, maybe draw out the water and call them into his coral of thorn bushes for the night, sleeping himself in the opening passage with His sheep. "
BASE TEXT for a shepherd and his sheep
How does the SIMILE change the base text?
It doesn't. It can't? Not allowed to. Otherwise the poetry is false.Poetry chooses similes carefully so the parallels match and are in harmony to each other.
King Tyre also was once loved by God and is no longer loved by God because God has found unrighteousness in King Tyre?
Base text?
the simile does not change the base text?Prince Cherub also was once loved by God and is no longer loved by God because God has found unrighteousness in Prince Cherub?
No where does the SIMILE change the base text? come on Dave, get real and understand how poetry SIMILES work, they function as parallels.
Shalom