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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2022 14:51:05 GMT -5
RP" So the "sons of God" are these biological creature archons coming to GOD for a meeting, and somehow God only talks to a prosecuting angel, but not the "archon creatures" about Job? Why is that Dave? D" All of Israel is at Sini – God only speaks to Moses – why is that Or of all Israel why did God only speak to the Priest Or in all of Jersusalem why did God only appear in the Temple R" Is that an answer? SO you're saying the prosecutor is a leader of the archons who do RA?
I thought prosecuting attorneys only prosecute sinners of their sins, not get involved in making sinners sin, or be an accessory to the sin sinners do?
You force me to misquote you because you do not discuss your own theories.
D"The heavenly prosecutor is there to accuse us of our sin – to oppose our salvation RP" Why would such a being oppose Salvation, D" Because all men are sinners – all men are unworthy of salvation Without the Divine pardon – we are all judge guilty of sin R" Again you do not think through your post.
How can God be a god of love and yet allow an angel to oppose His love of salvation?
Doesn't Scripture say God died while we humans were yet sinners?
So if all humans are sinning, God has to work out which sinning is atoned for and which sinning is not, not the actual sinning we do, that angels might see. An angel cannot see God's work of forgiving sinning, only God reads the heart and mind, not angels recording who only see transgressions and see no signs of forgiveness unless the sinner repents out loud in prayer.
But even than such a prayer out loud may mean nothing to God who reads the heart, where angels cannot read.
SO your whole premise of having an angel prosecute our sinning is meaningless and silly, what's more : not found in Scripture anyway.
The only reason I can think of why an accuser would want to oppose salvation is because the accuser has done mischief to humans and will pay life for his life for this mischief. Hence the accuser is trying to save his own neck, by prosecuting others who sin, rather than have them saved. One saved person means the accuser is killed for the mischief He caused to sinners. Funny, how is accuser, a word you like; different to opposer, a word you don't like? Accuser is a stronger term than opposer anyway.
D" Why are all men made sinner by the actions of one man? R" You do not answer my questions Dave?
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin-offering is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV)
Once Adam made a sin-offering for his sins, all flesh born through Adam has the same problem because sin-offering is an inherited problem. You forget I wrote this before? When cherubims sinned, nobody changed their biology, so they could return and repent to God is they wanted to, and many did return, But many also were hardened by pride and did not repent.
However when Adam sinned, listening to the sinning angel who sinned, in order to get Eve to sin, than once the couple had sinned, the sinning agents of their sinning were given ruling powers over them, and the OPPOSER of GOD, changed the DNA so the couple would have natural tendency to continue sinning through SELF, a product of corrupting the DNA. Hence the flesh was fallen immediately upon Adam's sinning.
Where is my two pennies verse for this idea?
Two
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
This is a court term. What condemnation? A change in the prince of Earth. Our flesh requires a sin-offering. Where is the verse for this two pennies idea?
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
What exactly is this mischief about? The dysfunction of the womb by some mischief maker. Hence a change to the functional nature of our birth. Is there another two pennies idea for this?
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Interesting verse. First it says the dragon had third of the stars of heaven on his side already. To devour the womb and it's contents, is a mischief maker doing mischief. Hence the dragon is already sinning and continues sinning with the womb process involved with humans.
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin-offering entered into the world, and death by sin-offering; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
This is nearly the same idea as your Gnostic RA were are born with, but it is also different, because our inherited RA came from the corruption of the womb, from which humans come from, only after the first humans sinned.
So when the first humans sinned, how did the womb become corrupted? This depends upon where life and living comes from, only and always by biology (not quite true) , or from the HS with a compassion-centre also involved, as only living comes from GOD ( a more complete answer)?
And as Adam and Eve sinned, the covering of light surrounding the couple shank, exposing their nakedness, the HS was affected as their covering and nurturing for their ongoing living. The mischief maker did his work of mischief.
D"Why are all men made sinner by the actions of one man? R" Because our flesh experienced mischief from a mischief maker.
D"Answer – Adam proved man is not trustworthy R" I would not agree Dave, because Adam was so grieved, his only was only one sin, and one sin only for the rest of his days. Adam remained very trustworthy to God.
RP"If we assume all cherubims have free will to choose, why does the writer not trust cherubims? D" We know man has free will – why doesn’t God trust man? R" Not an answer Dave. I am talking about cherubims.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Seems like Jesus is trusting his friends here?
Ps 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation:
God is faithful towards those who also have faith in God. So GOD does trust humans who also trust Him.
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Funny how can the ten commandment be faithful? Most seem them as don't do's? So the power of victory comes if you return the commandments as promised prayers of power? How many religions misunderstand the commandments?
La 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Ho 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Yada God is far more important than gnosis God, ie daath.
D" We know man has free will – why doesn’t God trust man? R" Therefore, GOD does trust man. Trust is the process of producing a faith flow.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 13, 2022 16:08:23 GMT -5
RP" So the "sons of God" are these biological creature archons coming to GOD for a meeting, and somehow God only talks to a prosecuting angel, but not the "archon creatures" about Job? Why is that I thought prosecuting attorneys only prosecute sinners of their sins, not get involved in making sinners sin, or be an accessory to the sin sinners do? You forget the scriptureJob 1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!” … satan’s hand is NOT extended against JobJob 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” satan is to protect Job’s life – prevent Job’s death You force me to misquote you because you do not discuss your own theories.Why don’t you just quote me?How can God be a god of love and yet allow an angel to oppose His love of salvation?Because Adam proved that all men are not trustworthy Because God does not trust man to obey and keep His mitzvahsDeu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years (this generation in physical reality) in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. God’s Plan – God’s WillDoesn't Scripture say God died while we humans were yet sinners?YEP – Gnostic John 3:16 the Son = God incarnate So if all humans are sinning, God has to work out which sinning is atoned for and which sinning is not, not the actual sinning we do, that angels might see. Sorry – one cross is enough for allAn angel cannot see God's work of forgiving sinning, only God reads the heart and mind, not angels recording who only see transgressions and see no signs of forgiveness unless the sinner repents out loud in prayer. Sorry Robert – your anti-semetic views are well documented herejewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12620-recording-angelRECORDING ANGEL:“The angel that, in popular belief, records the deeds of all individuals for future reward or punishment. The keeping of a general account between man and his Maker is represented by Akiba thus: "Man buys in an open shop where the dealer gives credit; the ledger is open, and the hand writes" (Abot iii. 20). Citing, "He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work" (Job xxxvii. 7), R. Shila said, "Two attending angels follow man as witnesses, and when a man dies all his deeds are enumerated, with place and date of occurrence, and the man himself indorses the statement" (Ta'an. 11a). Again, citing Mal. iii. 16 ("and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord"), R.Shila said, "Whenever two discuss the Law their words are recorded above" (Ber. 6a). All prayers are recorded in heaven by the angels (See Prayer). The principal recording angel appears to be Gabriel, "the man clothed with linen," whom God ordered to place a sign upon the foreheads of the men in Jerusalem who were to be spared (Ezek. ix. 4; see Shab. 55a). The entry in the royal annals recording the meritorious act of Mordecai in saving the life of Ahasuerus was said to have been erased by the royal secretary Shimshai, an enemy of the Jews, and to have been restored by Gabriel, the champion of Israel, which incident brought about the fall of Haman and the victory of the Jews (Meg. 16a; Rashi ad loc.). See Elijah; Enoch; Eschatology.” SO your whole premise of having an angel prosecute our sinning is meaningless and silly, what's more : not found in Scripture anyway.It is clearly described in Zec 3 – your denial of scripture is obviousMatthew Henry CommentaryJoshua is accused as a criminal, but is justified. A violent opposition is made to him. Satan stands at his right hand to resist him to be a Satan to him, a law-adversary. He stands at his right hand, as the prosecutor, or witness, at the right hand of the prisoner. enduringword.com/bible-commentary/zechariah-3/Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him: Satan hated the whole scene. He hates it when God’s people come into the presence of the LORD. He hates it when they come into God’s presence to serve and honor the LORD. “Satan must have been pointing to those [filthy clothes] and declaring forcefully that Joshua was unfit to stand before the Lord in this office.” Because all men are sinners – because all men are guiltyD"Why are all men made sinner by the actions of one man? R" Because our flesh experienced mischief from a mischief maker.So why aren’t all angels made sinners So why aren’t all cherubs made sinners D"Answer – Adam proved man is not trustworthyR" I would not agree OH – so God could trust Adam not to eat of the fruit?Oops - Adam proved man is not trustworthy RP"If we assume all cherubims have free will to choose, why does the writer not trust cherubims? D" We know man has free will – why doesn’t God trust man? R" Not an answer Dave. I am talking about cherubims.Correct – one man sinned – proving all men are sinnersBut you have an angel that sinned – but the rules are different for your satanD" We know man has free will – why doesn’t God trust man? R" Therefore, GOD does trust man.If God does trust man – why do all men have to die because of Adam Why do you have different theologies for different questions?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 22:15:35 GMT -5
D"Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” satan is to protect Job’s life – prevent Job’s death R" Ar you forgetting something here?
The accuser could do whatever RA he wanted to Job as long as the accuser didn't kill Job. This accuser, a chief, told his archons to wipe out all of Job's property.
RP"How can God be a god of love and yet allow an angel to oppose His love of salvation? D Because Adam proved that all men are not trustworthy Because God does not trust man to obey and keep His mitzvahs R" What answers are these? DO you even read my question?
Subject of the sentence "God be a god of love " Object of the sentence "allow an angel "
How in the world do you come up with the object of the sentence "Adam and all men" ?
Rp"So if all humans are sinning, God has to work out which sinning is atoned for and which sinning is not, not the actual sinning we do, that angels might see. D" Sorry – one cross is enough for all Again you cannot read my question, and you cannot answer my questions either?
What is the world has a CROSS got to do with angels recording our sinning, and our forgiveness of those sinning, which angels cannot see.
Rp"An angel cannot see God's work of forgiving sinning, only God reads the heart and mind, not angels recording who only see transgressions and see no signs of forgiveness unless the sinner repents out loud in prayer. D" Sorry Robert – your anti-semetic views are well documented here R" What?
Than you post this Jewish stuff: "
RECORDING ANGEL: “The angel that, in popular belief, records the deeds of all individuals for future reward or punishment. The keeping of a general account between man and his Maker is represented by Akiba thus: "Man buys in an open shop where the dealer gives credit; the ledger is open, and the hand writes" (Abot iii. 20). Citing, "He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work" (Job xxxvii. 7), R. Shila said, "Two attending angels follow man as witnesses, and when a man dies all his deeds are enumerated, with place and date of occurrence, and the man himself indorses the statement" (Ta'an. 11a). Again, citing Mal. iii. 16 ("and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord"), R.Shila said, "Whenever two discuss the Law their words are recorded above" (Ber. 6a).
All prayers are recorded in heaven by the angels (See Prayer). The principal recording angel appears to be Gabriel, "the man clothed with linen," whom God ordered to place a sign upon the foreheads of the men in Jerusalem who were to be spared (Ezek. ix. 4; see Shab. 55a). The entry in the royal annals recording the meritorious act of Mordecai in saving the life of Ahasuerus was said to have been erased by the royal secretary Shimshai, an enemy of the Jews, and to have been restored by Gabriel, the champion of Israel, which incident brought about the fall of Haman and the victory of the Jews (Meg. 16a; Rashi ad loc.). See Elijah; Enoch; Eschatology.” end quote.
So all this Jewish written stuff is inspired and worthy of Biblical study? I will quote my own so called inspired stuff, the writings of Ellen White, a known prophet:-
"In vision the prophet beholds “Joshua the high priest,” “clothed with filthy garments” (Zechariah 3:1, 3), standing before the Angel of the Lord, entreating God's mercy in behalf of His afflicted people. As he pleads for the fulfillment of God's promises, Satan stands up boldly to resist him. He points to the transgressions of Israel as a reason why they should not be restored to the favor of God. He claims them as his prey, and demands that they be given into his hands. The high priest cannot defend himself or his people from Satan's accusations. He does not claim that Israel is free from fault. In filthy garments, symbolizing the sins of the people, which he bears as their representative, he stands before the Angel, confessing their guilt, yet pointing to their repentance and humiliation, and relying upon the mercy of a sin-pardoning Redeemer. In faith he claims the promises of God.
And
Zechariah's description of Joshua, the high priest, is a striking representation of the sinner for whom Christ is mediating that he may be brought to repentance. Satan is standing at the right hand of the Advocate, resisting the work of Christ, and pleading against him that man is his property since he has chosen him as his ruler. But the defender of man, the restorer, mightier than the mightiest, hears the demands and claims of Satan, and answers him: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.” [Zechariah 3:2-5.] And
As a people, we must stand as did the world's Redeemer. When in controversy with Satan in regard to the body of Moses, Christ durst not bring against him a railing accusation. He had every provocation to do this, and Satan was disappointed because he could not arouse in Christ a spirit of retaliation. Satan was ready to misinterpret everything that was done by Jesus; and the Saviour would give him no occasion, not the semblance of an excuse. He would not turn from His straightforward course of truth in order to follow the wanderings, and twistings, and turnings, and prevarications of Satan.
We read in the prophecy of Zechariah that when Satan with all his synagogue stood up to resist the prayers of Joshua the high priest, and to resist Christ, who was about to show decided favor to Joshua, “The Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” Zechariah 3:2.
The course of Christ in dealing even with the adversary of souls, should be an example to us in all our intercourse with others, never to bring a railing accusation against any; much less should we employ harshness or severity toward those who may be as anxious to know the right way as we are ourselves. " end quote.
D"So why aren’t all angels made sinners R" I suggest you read my posts, because clearly you don't read them.
"Once Adam made a sin-offering for his sins, all flesh born through Adam has the same problem because sin-offering is an inherited problem." I quote my previous post. D"If God does trust man – why do all men have to die because of Adam Why do you have different theologies for different questions? R" I suggest you read my previous post before assuming to write your post.
Clearly you do not read my post, so our discussion is fruitless.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 15, 2022 3:06:33 GMT -5
D"Job 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” satan is to protect Job’s life – prevent Job’s death R" Ar you forgetting something here? The accuser could do whatever he wanted to Job as long as the accuser protected Job’s life. Agreed The Chief Archon, told his archons to wipe out all of Job's property. – as soon as Job was available Agreed
RP"How can God be a god of love and yet allow an angel to oppose His love of salvation? D Because Adam proved that all men are not trustworthy Because God does not trust man to obey and keep His mitzvahs R" What answers are these? DO you even read my question? Subject of the sentence "God be a god of love " Object of the sentence "allow an angel "
R" What answers are these? DO you even read my question? Answer – God allows – correct – agree Is man tested / tempted – Yes – agreed Why do you say God is wrong or sins by allowing His Plan / His Will to unfold as prophesied
How in the world do you come up with the object of the sentence "Adam and all men" ?
Gen 2:7 Then Adonai Elohim formed the man out of the dust from the ground and He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life—so the man became a living being.
H120 – אָדָם - 'âdâm - that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, Adam is Hebrew for a single man and the entire species / humanity – every man – any man
You stumble over your own word game Is all you see is one man? You only see the small word game you play Scripture is not about humanity? – You seriously do not see a deeper message with scripture than it is just Adam’s fault (not Eve’s according to you – she musrt be a different species and Hebrew adam) – OH but you also say – Adam had an excuse because Roman satan made him do it
D" Sorry Robert – your anti-semetic views are well documented here R" What? Than you post this Jewish stuff: "
RECORDING ANGEL: “The angel that, in popular belief, records the deeds of all individuals for future reward or punishment. The keeping of a general account between man and his Maker is represented by Akiba thus: "Man buys in an open shop where the dealer gives credit; the ledger is open, and the hand writes" (Abot iii. 20). Citing, "He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work" (Job xxxvii. 7), R. Shila said, "Two attending angels follow man as witnesses, and when a man dies all his deeds are enumerated, with place and date of occurrence, and the man himself indorses the statement" (Ta'an. 11a). Again, citing Mal. iii. 16 ("and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord"), R.Shila said, "Whenever two discuss the Law their words are recorded above" (Ber. 6a).
All prayers are recorded in heaven by the angels (See Prayer). The principal recording angel appears to be Gabriel, "the man clothed with linen," whom God ordered to place a sign upon the foreheads of the men in Jerusalem who were to be spared (Ezek. ix. 4; see Shab. 55a). The entry in the royal annals recording the meritorious act of Mordecai in saving the life of Ahasuerus was said to have been erased by the royal secretary Shimshai, an enemy of the Jews, and to have been restored by Gabriel, the champion of Israel, which incident brought about the fall of Haman and the victory of the Jews (Meg. 16a; Rashi ad loc.). See Elijah; Enoch; Eschatology.” end quote.
So all this Jewish written stuff is inspired and worthy of Biblical study? Robert – your views about ancient Judaism is only what your church has taught you Needless to say – IT IS BIASED to present the Jews as deniers of Christ – therefore deniers of their own scripture
Therefore - your only context is the Roman view - not Judaism
What a bunch of man-made religious crap The Jews must reject Christ – to open the Age of the Gentile The Jews must be dispersed into every nation to fulfill prophesy The Jews must be recalled from all those nations for the end times to fulfill prophesy All of end times prophesy is about Israel –vers- Islam and the King of the North This is prophesy – it is written – it is God’s Plan / God’s Will D" Sorry Robert – your anti-semetic views are well documented here
So all this Jewish written stuff is inspired and worthy of Biblical study? Robert – your views about ancient Judaism is only what your church has taught you If you would ever would actually take the time to know what your talking about If you would take the time to actually try to understand Judaism – you would learn that the Zohar come with 5 opinions on almost every subject Rabbi A says – and Rabbi B says – and Rabbi C from 1250AD said – but Rabbi someone else said something different Only arrogant Christian claim to have the only way
You claim that the Rabbis don't sound like Christian Evangelist trying to win sould for the Lord You claim that the Rabbis talk od secular things DUH The Jews of the ahl/OT lived the ahl/OT - there is no seperation from their secular walk as a Jew and their religious walk as a Jew
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Just how much more secular can it be?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Just how much more secular can it be?
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
The Passion of Christ Just how much more secular can it be?
I will quote my own so called inspired stuff, the writings of Ellen White, a known prophet:- Not approved by Rome – therefore Gnostic
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from pointless chatter and the contradictions of so-called knowledge— 1Ti 6:21 by professing it, some have missed the mark concerning the faith.
"In vision the prophet beholds “Joshua the high priest,” “clothed with filthy garments” (Zechariah 3:1, 3), standing before the Angel of the Lord, entreating God's mercy in behalf of His afflicted people.
Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
OK – And it is also 100% about Joshua himself – upon Joshua’s death
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And it is also 100% about Joshua himself – upon Joshua’s death[/b]
Satan stands up boldly to resist him. He points to the transgressions of Joshua Absolutely agree – all men are sinners – even Joshua – as is Israel / Jerusalem
as a reason why they should not be restored to the favor of God. He claims them as his prey, and demands that they be given into his hands. Only takes one sin to be a sinner – just ask Eve
OH WAIT – according to you Eve must be from a different species – not human being It wasn’t until ADAM the man sinned that the sin changed your world
Only takes one sin to be a sinner – just ask Eve Maybe you think it takes two sins Or only males sin and women are exempt for some reason
In filthy garments, symbolizing the sins of the people, which he bears as his personal sin YES – very common Jewish concept – we enter heaven with dirty clothes that must be cleansed / purified
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
and relying upon the mercy of a sin-pardoning Redeemer. In faith he claims the promises of God. YEP – Divine Pardon
D"So why aren’t all angels made sinners R" I suggest you read my posts, because clearly you don't read them. "Once Adam made a sin-offering for his sins, all flesh born through Adam has the same problem because sin-offering is an inherited problem." Biology – is all you see – you only focus upon the world – this is the goal of the archon to convince you that world is all there is – no spirt Is this correctly stating you views?
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