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Post by Richard on Jul 14, 2021 11:15:04 GMT -5
You do realize that you are attacking the credibility of Robert’s god Of course he is defensiveDear Robert Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? Everything is wrong with that. This is the adopted theology of the Zoroastrians, brought into Christianity by the Catholic Church. You must understand that no one of Jewish persuasion will never agree with youThe Jews spent the entire ahl struggling against these pagan gods and their religions that infiltrate Jewish culture Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done? Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’” and their gods will be a snare to you1- precept upon precept, line upon line – your cherub chata does not agree with the bulk of scripture Instead of deferring to the bulk of scripture – you choose these two words as Gold 2- of the 23 + 49 verse about ahl satan – not once did satan oppose God – instead he obeyed God and opposed man Precept upon precept, line upon line72 verse saying something opposite to your one verse How is this possible – answer – you do not understand your one versePlease prove to me that satan is God’s opponet – here are the verses And your answer is If the word of God cannot teach Robert scripture Why do you think you can, can't you see he is a disciple of satan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2021 14:20:09 GMT -5
Richard you are funny... Ho 9:7 The days of visitation to this forum is come, the days of recompence are come; Dave, Richard and Dillon shall know it: the spiritual man is mad, ... Dave asked me to prove from the OT Hebrew only, that the Hebrew word "satan" is a word that "hates God".You ignored by discussion completely about the purpose and function of poetry simile. Now you ask me " Prove to me that ahl satan hates God as you claim" Without using Ezekiel, you ask a difficult thing, since we have battled over many texts in the OT. So I have to come up with an entirely new approach. The prickles over the nations strong "XNA" (sana) is one Hebrew word meaning "hate" and The prickles over the nations strong Behold the Person "XNAH" (sanah) is another Hebrew word meaning "hatred". 2Sa 13:15 Then Amnon hated "XNA" her exceedingly; so that the hatred "XNAH" wherewith he hated "XNA" her was greater than the love "Ahabuh" wherewith he had loved "Ahab" her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.This is an interesting verse, when Ammon rapes her sister, breaking several of the ten commandments. Ahab = maleness love Ahabuh = femaleness love Is paralleled to Sana = maleness hate Sanah = femaleness hate. All the extremes of love, both is positive extremes and negative extremes is written here in one verse. Such as the Hebrew words describing love and hate (it's opposite) in fullest terms. The word "hate" has the "thorn" letter over the nations. The prickles cover the nations "XTnN" is spelt as "satan" but this word as Jeff points out has two forms "oppose/opponent". And includes the "thorn" letter, which is hidden from Hebrew and lost, no wonder Jews do not see this meaning of the words anymore. David's prayer the 25th psalm is especially able to answer Dave's question: Ps 25:2 O my Elohiym-Power, I trust in thee: Ps 25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the Elohiym-Power of YASHAH; The Hebrew construct of two nouns, Elohiym-Power YASHAH, tell me to read Yashah as a singular masculine person within this elohiym-power, the same name given to Yasha in Matthew 1:21. What does this Name do for humans? Ps 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD. The whole prayer is about Yashuah forgiving our sin-offering because we have done trangressions of the law, and need the mercy of Jesus. Ps 25:9 The meek will he guide in judgment... Ps 25:11 For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine guilt; Again humans are guilty of sin, breaking the ten commandments of GOD's moral laws. Ps 25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. A poetry simile here, Only Yashah's Seed inherits the earth, NO other Seed. Notice poetry again, kiss the SEED, in Ps 2, who sowed the tares, disciples ask? An enemy Jesus replied. DO we understand poetry similes and symbols of hidden messages? Ps 25:19 Consider mine enemies; for they are many; and they hate me with cruel hatred. Both forms of hate are here, sana and sanah, David prays, Lord consider my enemies. Notice why they are enemies is because they do not follow the moral laws of God. Ps 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred "femaleness-hatred" ; and fought against me without a cause. 4 For my love "femaleness-love" they are my adversaries "satan" (opponents): This verse is a prophecy how Jesus encountered his creatures on earth who love sinning, and hence hate those who oppose sinning. Here is one example how the word "satan" meaning "oppose" is a word to describe creatures who oppose "femaleness-love" with intense "femaleness-hatred". Ps 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil "RA" for good "TOV" , and hatred "femaleness-hate" for my love "femaleness-love". 6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. I moved the suffix/prefix whatever for those to see, the root word is the same, satan. Ps 109:6 has a waw, and Job 1:7 has a hey. What do these little letters do to the root words? KJV says not much, but I suppose you argue this makes the root word into totally different meanings? Bible Hub is good here, satan-ew is an accuser of the brethren. Here is a poetry parallel, where two lines are saying similar things in different ways. Humans are also wicked, and often do RA instead of TOV. Humans are also capable of both forms of love and both forms of hate. Now the poetry parallel is true. The satan word shows that other beings, are also capable of wickedness, in fact are empowering the right hand of man, the active hand. This shows these beings are empowering wickedness through man. And why do these powers do such things? because they love sinning, and GOD hates sinning. Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: ( All these things concern SIN) Now I have never studied "hate" before, looking at Jeff Benner for first time in this study and reading through the torah on this subject for the first time, I encounter truth that just leaps out for you. Notice the Bible gets back to poetry again, a subject you glossed over in my last post. This time the poetry is called verse parallels, even whole themes are similes, pictures of other things that a real. I suppose you also ignore them as well. So if LOVE has an origin, only found in GOD, where does the opposite of love come from? What is the origin of HATE ?, in both forms too, the femaleness hate and the maleness hate. Just as LOVE has two forms, the masculine love and the feminine love. These forms are not based on gender, but on qualities of GOD. The Bible teaches that HATE originated in a creature who SINNED first, who was the closest created creature next to GOD, in charge of guarding the ten moral laws of Love. Because this creature of Creation also sinned. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2021 15:41:34 GMT -5
Dave asked me to prove from the OT Hebrew only, that the Hebrew word "satan" is a word that "hates God". You ignored by discussion completely about the purpose and function of poetry simile. Correct – I asked you about ahl satan and your answer was the serpent of Eden No one denies that the serpent of of the Beast of revelation who is the agl devil You refuse to answer my question – because you cannot without invoking Catholic doctrine Now you ask me "Prove to me that ahl satan hates God as you claim" Without using Ezekiel, you ask a difficult thing, Correct – without your precious two word doctrine – all of your Catholic bull shit falls a partDavid's prayer the 25th psalm is especially able to answer Dave's question: Ps 25:2 O my Elohiym-Power, I trust in thee: Ps 25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the Elohiym-Power of YASHAH; - YES – The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob What does it have to do with proving your satan god disobeys GodAgain humans are guilty of sin, breaking the ten commandments of GOD's moral laws. Yes – Rom 5:12Ps 25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. How can you post this – You do not believe this verse man has no soul is your argument What does if have to do with proving your satan god disobeys GodI moved the suffix/prefix whatever for those to see, the root word is the same, satan. Ps 109:6 has a waw, and Job 1:7 has a hey. What do these little letters do to the root words? KJV says not much, but I suppose you argue this makes the root word into totally different meanings? Bible Hub is good here, satan-ew is an accuser of the brethren. YES! Gnostic Christianity says satan always opposes man You say satan opposes God What does it have to do with proving your satan god disobeys GodA poetry simile here, Notice poetry again, Here is a poetry parallel, Notice the Bible gets back to poetry againPoetry?I notice your authority to claim what you both claim; Dave found and posted.... I quote" King Tyre is described using the poetry images Please bare with me, don't be upset: Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of " Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly", whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Wine is a symbol of man made stuff, not GOD's truth, but man made truth. Why? Because the "Harvard Divinity School, the publishers of the Jewish Quarterly" no longer read the Hebrew, but their own doctrines, the precepts and traditions of men. Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. So tell me when GOD invented poetry, do the similes really become literal as one picture, or do they represent literally something else? this is, other pictures? I see – no one ever knew the truth about YHWY until Rome Now you argue that the precepts of men came before scripture - Judasim is a corruption of Roman Catholic So most of your ahl is poetry – but if the Jews say Ezk 28 is poetry that have to be wrong because it offends your satan godDefend your satan god as hard as you can – at all cost – even if you have to misrepresent scripture Richard called you satan’s disciple And I have said – I know who you are Anyone who does a Bible study and denies what they have learned is just arrogantly trapped within his own brainwashing Your satan God has a large role within scripture Without Ezk 28 – you should be easily able to defend your satan god – but you refuse, because you cannotahl satan - whom you say was perfect until he sinned Has nothing to do with the Beast of Revelation, the devil, the false prophets, and Chaldean satanas - who just appeaqred fully formed in a plurarity ahl satan - the heavenly prosecutor - in service to the Lord - an angels of the Lord Has nothing to do with the Beast of Revelation - who is not an angel of the Lord - but a BEAST with an army of archon - of various ranks and functions - principlaities - shedim - Jinn - archon Am I saying that the Beast is a good guy - no way or the devil, or the false prophets, or the principalities I am saying - he is not an angel of the lord - he is a Beast made with some matter ------------------ Robert – you claim to be a long time student of the ahl – a missionary even Why can’t you answer simple question from the ahlI have asked you to tell me who are the shedim? Who are the 33 other gods of the ahl? And why don’t you have any idea who Beelzebub is? Who is Allah? Who are the gods of the Aborigine, or Native American, or South American? Who are the gods of South East Asia? Who are the Hindu gods? Your best answer – they are all imaginary – they are not real Just like your answer for our real struggle against principalities is imaginary – not real Is satan just your answer for everything?Roman Edit = arrogant self-centered ego In the age of the ahl Israel only represented 1% of the world And Rome forces all reality be confined only to that 1% Rome knows that the One True God – is the only creator therefore all theology must be from that 1% that was given the scriptures OK – what is the theology of the ahl 1% - they stood alone against the 99% and the gods of the 99%Who is the God of the 1% = YHWY Who are the 33 other gods of the 99% - the Chaldean devils – the shedim – the shades – Rome says they are Imaginary – not real – myth – fable Jews knew exactly who they were – Gnostics know who they are – Paul knew who they are When Jesus spoke of Beelzebub – the Jewish and non-Jewish audience knew who he was talking about He is a Chaldean devil – a satanas. In fact he is king of the Chaldean devils satanas and all from the 99% Rome says they are Imaginary – not real – myth – fableWhy would Rome deny the real enemy of the ahl? Why would Robert work so hard to deny the archon of Eph 6 – our real struggle? Why does Rome teach that God’s own angels hate God? Why does Rome teach that even angels can fall from God Grace Why does Rome teach Sun day + Dec 25th + lent for 40 days + Easter Sunday and its colored eggs and ham dinner? Why does the SDA take it even further to make satan a god of evil and deny the soul of man? Answer – Roman Christendom is not the same religion as Messianic Judaism First Century style Messianic Judaism has been usurped by Rome into a pro-satan religion Look at the history of the Roman religion – is it an example of Christian love? Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 4:43:02 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, you didn't read all my study and glossed over it again.
OK so we will try another approach, this time very slowly, so every word we write, you get:
In the Genesis 3 account, there is not a single verse saying Adam and Eve actually sinned.
So prove to me Dave, that Adam and Eve sinned, using only the ahl.
(This is a journey that will answer your question, as you asked of me, and we will answer your query in this approach and method).
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 15, 2021 12:07:51 GMT -5
Still you refuse to answer questions - instead you attempt to change to focus off of yourself Sorry Robert - I have tried to answer every one of your question as best as I could and as honest as I could
Waiting for you to recipricate
In the Genesis 3 account, there is not a single verse saying Adam and Eve actually sinned. So prove to me Dave, that Adam and Eve sinned, using only the ahl. (This is a journey that will answer your question, as you asked of me, and we will answer your query in this approach and method).
Easy – definition of sin – transgressing the Law / disobeying God
(google) Adam's one “law” he had to follow Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.”
Cool now answer my question using the any scripture you want
Personal comment to Robert – I mean this sincerely – you do not see the ahl as a whole Now answer my questions in the following order
1- What happened in Gen 1:2 that caused the choshek? The agl says – Rev 12:3 the Great Red Dragon APPEARED in a plurality Question – do you disagree with the agl?
2- The Great red Dragon is the BEAST / devil /Serpent of old (meaning gen 3) / agl satanas / and false prophets Question – do you agree that the choshek side of theology is a plurality –
3- What happens to the Beast and his entourage -they are ejected from heaven and cast to earth Question – Where does this group of beings live? I say they live in 100% of the earth (either the cosmos or this planet) - the earth belongs to them I say they were on/in earth from the very beginning – this is their kingdom
4- The idea of satan and pitch fork ruling in hell which is a pit of fire and brimstone is from a novel called ‘The Divine Comedy” – chapter 4: Dante’s Infernal, written by Milton around 1600 The kingdom of the Beast and his army according to scripture = earth Question – to you accept Catholic doctrine or scripture
5- Throughout the New Testament, Satan is referred to as a "tempter" (Matthew 4:3),[8] "the ruler of the demons" (Matthew 12:24),[93][8] "the God of this Age" (2 Corinthians 4:4),[94] "the evil one" (1 John 5:18),[8] and "a roaring lion" (1 Peter 5:8)
1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour.
Rev 12:4 … Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour ...
Question – is the devil related to the BEAST?
Your Ezk 28 says you cherub was perfect from the beginning – cherished
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks lies he is just being himself—for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Who lied / murdered / and didn’t stand in the truth from the beginning – cannot be your Ezk 28 cherub
Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you are able to stand against the schemes of the devil. Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (archon / principalities), against the powers,
Question 6 -Again – our real struggle is against the devil and archon Do you deny that the agl devil and the principalities our real struggle?
7- KJV word search for DEVIL in the KJV OT = 0 uses in 0 verses Question – why doesn’t the ahl speak of the devil – ? The answer to this is so simple – and you simply don’t get it
The Beast / the devil / the satanas / archon/ shedim have the whole WORLD – the 100% Eden was a sequested place (1%) then Adam and Eve were cast into the whole – the 100%
Now we have the 1% (lineage of Adam→Israel) alone with YHWY vrs the 99% that does not know YHWY The 1% God’s Chosen People –vrs- the WORLD the 99%
Who is the God of the 1% = YHWY Question – who are the multiple gods (non-God gods) ‘other gods’ of the 99% I say it is still the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets
Question – who are the multiple gods of the 99% I say it is still the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets They just have names like – Baal, Moloch, Chermush, Dogon, and many more And many more in the 100% - Egypt / India / China / South East Asia / the Americas / Africa 100s of gods – false gods – in the void of not knowing YHWY And all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets None of them angels
8- 1Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Ben-Elohim appeared for this purpose—to destroy the works of the devil.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Question - Is this not a rescue from the kingdom of the WORLD - the kingdom of the Beast and his offspring
9- KJV word search for DEVIL in the KJV OT = 0 uses in 0 verses Question – why doesn’t the ahl speak of the agl devil – ? The answer to this is so simple – and you simply don’t get it
The ahl is the story of God’s Chosen People Sure there is the personal message within – but the Tanak is about Israel vrs the WORLD Who is the God of Israel = YWHY Who are the multiple gods of the 99% all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets – who are Baal, Moloch, etc Who was the god of the Philistines = Beelzebub and his shedim In all of the 99% gods are multiple – and selfish – and act like spoiled children = (yester ra) only archon In all of the 99% gods father children – many also have demi-god children In all of these 99% gods and devils shapeshift – appear and disappear In all of these 99% gods and devils – they control matter – wind / storms / rain Just as King Solomon described Beelzebub and his shedim Just as the Gnostic Archon are here to keep you sidetracked with WORLD
The Hypostasis of the Archons Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
FYI – every single creature feature is all 100% Jewish – vampires, werewolves, witches, controlling evil spirits, controlling the elements – all of it is from the 99%
How did it get to be Jewish Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done? Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”
Who are the ‘other gods’ of the ahl all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets – who are Baal, Moloch, etc Who was the god of the Philistines = Beelzebub and his shedim
The agl is a personal story It is about you vrs the WORLD and the multiple gods within it the Beast / archon / devils / principalities / Beelzebub and his shedim
The Hypostasis of the Archons Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
Hab 1:6 For I am about to raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter, impetuous nation, marching all over the land, to seize dwellings not its own.
It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that is in your face It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that wants you in his kingdom – be in the WORLD It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that tempts you with WORLD – lust / greed / power / fame All agl satanas had to offer Jesus Christ was – this WORLD
This is why the Jehovah’s Witness see this world as both heaven and hell the Cathars just see the Great Red Dragon that consumes is the WORLD
A is a lot of teaching that this earth = hell (quora) Yes Earth is Hell. Lucifer was thrown out of heaven to where? Earth(Hell) Lets look at Earth. There is war, pain, suffering, death, greed, deception, corruption, murder, backstabbing, liars, false accusations, false witnesses, haters, adulterers, and division. Sounds a lot like Hell to me. Do you notice only evil people are the ones that make it to the top? The good people suffer. That sounds like Hell to me. Look at all the corruption and evil in politics and nothing is ever done about it. Sound like Hell to me. Look at this world now. Anything good is attacked and ridiculed. Anything that is perverted is praised and honored. Sounds like Hell to me. Earth is Hell. The only way out of Hell is to give your soul to Christ. When you die, you get out of Hell. The Earth is an illusion by Satan himself. He rules in Hell which is Earth. Get saved and you will get out of Hell when you die. Good luck and I hope you make the right choice.
(quora) My definition of hell: It’s a place where suffering is unavoidable and people are always struggling with psychological, physical and/or financial problems. It’s a place where people are suffering from: poverty, wars, diseases, lack of basic needs, infrastructure, health and education, human rights abuses and exploration.
Rom 16:20 Now the God of shalom will soon crush satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Yeshua be with you.
Cathars see this as the WORLD Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Gnostics just see this as a New World without the BEAST / The Great Red Dragon / the devil / the satanas / the false prophets
Gnostic Christians have NO HELL Hell is the Greek word hades which means – NOT SEEN In Greek all dead people good or bad went into hades the realm of the unseen In Greek within hades is a location for the evil ones = Tartarus
Jews – have no hell – you are purified by Proportional Punishment until you join in at the Bosom of Abraham – or you remain in proportional punishment until judgment day – or you are granted a Divine Pardon – or you get a do over
Gnostic Christians – Messianic Jews – have Proportional Punishment – each man his due, deeds, works, fruit - or you remain in proportional punishment until judgment day - or you are granted a Divine Pardon (Salvation in Christ) – or you get a do over
Catholic Christians = your either in or out – and your done
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Last comment If you haven’t got it yet – I spend hours a day online – it is my job If I am not talking to you I am busy elsewhere Therefore – I honor the amount of time you put in
Jewish and Gnostic Reincarnation I just experience this by private email
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 19:54:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You wrote a lot, I appreciate this, many things to ponder, some of which is in harmony with me. D" Easy – definition of sin – transgressing the Law / disobeying GodOK Where is this definition found in the ahl? It's not. In fact there is no definition of sin in the ahl, only that the word "chata" means to miss. Notice what Paul says of Adam's moral choice: Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence...paraptoma Please discuss since your are a Greek scholar the difference between this word Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Here we have a fuzzy translation. By one man sin-offering entered into the world and death by sin-offering, passed onto all men because all men sin. So what Adam did according to Paul is "paraptoma" what is "paraptoma"? rk#:3900 paraptwma / par-ap-to-mah (noun): Trespass Freq:&23 Heb#:5766 עול / ul (noun): Wicked—A violation of right or duty Heb#:6588 פשע / pe-sha (noun): Transgression—The exceeding of due bounds or limits. Jeff Benner suggests paratoma means "pesha" the transgressions, makes sense, Adam diobeyed a commandment of GOD, but note, this is not termed "missing" (sin). The concept of missing (hence sin) is developed over time. ------------------ My reason to raise this is because salvation, truth and knowledge is revealed gradually to Adam and Eve and all of mankind, slowly. A child learns by learning. Nobody is given all the details of wisdom immediately upon birth. We grow up into the wisdom of GOD, ever learning. The torah is a book for children to learn the learnings of GOD, and so we grow into more of the torah's teachings, one at a time. So we do not expect all the details of all things in the former torah teachings. ---------------------- D"1- What happened in Gen 1:2 that caused the choshek? The agl says – Rev 12:3 the Great Red Dragon APPEARED in a pluralityR" I do not see as you see, the Beast power different from a Devil power, you present these powers as separate and from different origins. I see them as the same. So I do not agree with these statements posted here. Gen 1:2 Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is clear Earth was already present before Creation Week began, when the process of day one, began. Before Creation Week, the earth without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. You do not get this, you assume the earth began that way from RA, and thus RA always exists with GOD. I do not support this idea. GOD is only perfect and all things are perfect. So the question one must ask is why is the earth without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep ? We must find a torah answer to this question. choshek (darkness) is a word we have studied in the torah: Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. I note you see this as Satanas, not the same being as Satan. But the word choshek (darkness) is here, translated into the Greek skotos. Is "skotos" a translation of "choshek"? rk#:4655 skotoV / skot-os (noun): Darkness Freq:&32 Heb#:2822 חושך / hho-shekh (noun): Darkness—The state of being dark. As the darkness of a moonless night.From Jeff Benner, H2822, is choshek, BINGO. This proves the satanas being must be the agent of RA that wrought choshek, upon the earth. Is there another torah to back up this idea? Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains The angels that left their beginnings, is reserved in a different darkness zophos because they await being judged. The Greek does not translate the angels as cherub, but as messengers, so one has to assume these beings are cherub. The question is how far back in time does the word "arche" go? In this context? Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. It has to go back before Creation Week, and hence when these sinning angels were banished from heaven and cast onto earth, the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. NOT was always without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Why? Because GOD left earth, and leaving earth plunges the earth into a place form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. No light. Minus 200 degrees. No heat. Nothing. Only angels there who sinned. And Dave says the BEAST was created before anything else was created? Most animals were created days 5 and 6, but you have a creature created before the first day begun even? I don't think so. The torah does not support your view. And why was the earth without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep? Because angels banished there were sinning. (Jude says this, Rev 12 says this, Ezekiel 28 says this) At least three verses all mention angels doing things we term sin. And Acts 26 places Satanas with choshek, the darkness during the Genesis 1:2 time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rest of your presentation is a great read, but we differ already in the origin of the beast. D"5- Throughout the New Testament, Satan is referred to as a "tempter" (Matthew 4:3),[8] "the ruler of the demons" (Matthew 12:24),[93][8] "the God of this Age" (2 Corinthians 4:4),[94] "the evil one" (1 John 5:18),[8] and "a roaring lion" (1 Peter 5:8)
1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour.
Rev 12:4 … Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour ...
R" the parallel passages are convincing Dave, but you say the Beast is a different being to the Satan in the ahl, the Satanas refers to the RA dealings of this Beast power. So in the ahl the Satan is a good angel volunteering to be God's prosecutor? Making sure sinners do not enter heaven.... Does God need really need a prosecutor for judement? No, books already written by angels in heaven watch our actions, God also ready the unseen actions, there is no need of a prosecutor, and no such picture of judgement is depicted as one. Look in the day of atonement, no prosecutor. Read the judgements of God, no prosecutor. But instead your being influences men to sin, hardly a function of a prosecutor? How come Jews ignore this? Question: When Adam sinned, sin-offering had to come for pardon. God cannot pardon transgression unless a law was already written for such things. So instead an animal died for Adam that very day, as well as Adam beginning to died internally. GOD promised to die later in the future. Why did an animal die for the first 4,000 years of sinning, and GOD die later after 4,000 of sin? On the Cross? Because time is necessary for all the universe to understand the gradual development of salvation themes. Hence we the latter torah explains more the the former torah. But you challenge me to explain things using only the former torah? -------------------------------- Question – who are the multiple gods of the 99% I say it is still the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets They just have names like – Baal, Moloch, Chermush, Dogon, and many more And many more in the 100% - Egypt / India / China / South East Asia / the Americas / Africa 100s of gods – false gods – in the void of not knowing YHWY And all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets None of them angels
Rob replies" So only the Beast power, known in Greek as Satanas is behind this thing, not the Hebrew OT Hebrew, who is an angel volunteering as the lying medium for God, and obeys God's will and instructions? The Bible speaks little of angels, so you demand lots of texts, because for you such a theme shoudl have lots of texts, after all it's an important theme for you, otherwise you mock and doubt. Salvation is a major theme for GOD don't you think? Where are the major and numerous texts for sinners to be saved by GOD? What did Adam do when He transgressed? Nothing is recorded that Adam did, only some things GOD did, like clothe them. Why the lack of details Dave? And such a major theme too? So if Satanas, the great beast, the red dragon archon is so mentioned in the NT, where are the numerous text references to Satanas in the OT Dave, your loved ahl? How would you write Satanas in the Hebrew language so we could go looking for the power you speak of? I see the two words as the same, Satanas and Satan, just a suffix or prefix adds to the root word, you have to explain to me how Satanas is in the OT Hebrew, and which verses speak of this power. Very fex texts on dragon in the OT Dave, you would have trouble convincing me of your dragon archon thing as anything, never existed as you say in the OT, where is it mentioned? It's not. If you wish to present two separate powers of RA, than where is your lots of ahl texts? Stop demanding I show you stuff, when you can't show me your stuff? Rev 20 labels all the agents of RA as the same being, and other verses like Acts 26 places Satanas as the agent of RA, long ago in the choshek of Gen 1:2. So your Greek has an extra suffix? So? means nothing. It's the same Satan, the same angel that sinned long ago. --------------------------- Just as King Solomon described Beelzebub and his shedim Just as the Gnostic Archon are here to keep you sidetracked with WORLDNo mention of this by Solomon in Ecclesiastes Dave, only other books we assume Solomon wrote. Maybe he did when he was an evil king, lost to Satan for a few years, and later found GOD again. Inspired scrolls are chosen for a reason by people who support GOD. Not a single mention of archon in the OT hebrew Dave. Show me your numerous texts. ------------------------------- Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’”
Who are the ‘other gods’ of the ahl all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets – who are Baal, Moloch, etc Who was the god of the Philistines = Beelzebub and his shedimRob replies" Yes Dave Satan has marketed many gods to trap people away from GOD. All right Dave, prove to me that your Satanas power is mentioned in the ahl? Judge 2:3 does not do this. Shedim has only two minor mentions in the ahl? Is that all you have for all this massive power of Satanas in the AHL? When are you going to realize that Satanas, the beast and the serpent, while satan are all the same power as Rev 20 explains? -------------------------- Hab 1:6 For I am about to raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter, impetuous nation, marching all over the land, to seize dwellings not its own.
It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that is in your faceRob replies" Nice twist Dave. Who are the Babels ? The Hebrew word for confusion. The Chaldean word for gateway to the GOD of heaven. Who started this? Nimrod did, who was behind this human to pretended to rise as the Sun God and be a star forever? Have you never read The Two Babylons, by Hislap? A book that denies all you are saying. So if Satanas is already in the days of Nimrod, where is the Hebrew term for this pagan false god? --------------------------- Yes Earth is Hell. Lucifer was thrown out of heaven to where? Earth(Hell) Lets look at Earth. There is war, pain, suffering, death, greed, deception, corruption, murder, backstabbing, liars, false accusations, false witnesses, haters, adulterers, and division. Sounds a lot like Hell to me. Do you notice only evil people are the ones that make it to the top? The good people suffer. That sounds like Hell to me.R" ------------------------ Gnostics just see this as a New World without the BEAST / The Great Red Dragon / the devil / the satanas / the false prophetsRob replies" So Satan the angel who volunteered as a lying medium, obeying God, and as a prosecutor is allowed to live forever with GOD, its Satanas that is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Is this your idea Dave? ---------------------------- Last comment If you haven’t got it yet – I spend hours a day online – it is my job If I am not talking to you I am busy elsewhere Therefore – I honor the amount of time you put inRob replies" I am glad you hnour my time discussing with you, even though we disagree, we both value our time with GOD and want this to be absolutely right. When we gather in the City looking over the walls to every human who ever lived will be raised in their bodies with their soul in their old bodies, I will look for you. We will either hug each other, or only see our tears of regret. Shalom for now. I will post more, but my computer is running out of power. This post is sent from my car, the wife is shopping and I am on my own with you and my GOD. God bless you Shabbat with Him. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 17, 2021 10:56:38 GMT -5
D" Easy – definition of sin – transgressing the Law / disobeying God OK Where is this definition found in the ahl? It's not. Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!” So you think eternal life is available to those to disobey GodIn fact there is no definition of sin in the ahl, only that the word "chata" means to miss. Agreed – you have no definition of sin – you would rather play a word gamePlease discuss the difference between this wordRo 5:17 For if by one man's offence...paraptoma G3900 – παράπτωμα - From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass. Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: So what Adam did according to Paul is "paraptoma" what is "paraptoma"? Jeff Benner suggests paratoma means "pesha" the transgressions, makes sense, Adam diobeyed a commandment of GOD, Yep – that’s what I said – “Easy – definition of sin – transgressing the Law / disobeying God” Adam diobeyed a commandment of GOD,(google) Adam's one “law” he had to follow Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” God said - of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eatIf God said it – it is a commandment The Free Will choice = obey God or NOT------------------ D"1- What happened in Gen 1:2 that caused the choshek? The agl says – Rev 12:3 the Great Red Dragon APPEARED in a plurality R" I do not see as you see, the Beast power different from a Devil power, you present these powers as separate and from different origins. I see them as the same. So I do not agree with these statements posted here.Honesty Robert – you try to slip away by twisting Great Red Dragon, the Beast, the Dragon, the devil, the serpent, the satanas, and the false prophets are all of the same family archon – all belong to the Beast of RevelationGe 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is clear Earth was already present before Creation Week beganDay 1 is before the week began?choshek (darkness) is a word we have studied in the torah:Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satanas unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. I note you see this as Satanas, not the same being as Satan. But the word choshek (darkness) is here, translated into the Greek skotos. Is "skotos" a translation of "choshek"? rk#:4655 skotoV / skot-os (noun): Darkness Freq:&32 Heb#:2822 חושך / hho-shekh (noun): Darkness—The state of being dark. As the darkness of a moonless night. From Jeff Benner, H2822, is choshek, BINGO. This proves the satanas being must be the agent of RA that wrought choshek, upon the earth. Is there another torah to back up this idea?Absolutely Agree – Correct – satanas belongs to the Great Red Dragon of Rev 12:3 – yes the family archon and responsible for the choshek of Gen 1:2Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. It has to go back before Creation Week, and hence when these sinning angels were banished from heaven and cast onto earth, the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.YES – Absolutely Agree – the Beast and his plurality of archon were cast into earth of Gen 1:1 And entropy is introduced into physical creation = choshekAnd Dave says the BEAST was created before anything else was created? Most animals were created days 5 and 6, but you have a creature created before the first day begun even? I don't think so. The torah does not support your view.More of the Robert Honesty Gnostic Cathars saw Rev 12:3 as physical creation Dave said The Beast is just the first sentient made with some matter--------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rest of your presentation is a great read, but we differ already in the origin of the beast. R" the parallel passages are convincing Dave, but you say the Beast is a different being to the Satan in the ahl, the Satanas refers to the RA dealings of this Beast power. So in the ahl the Satan is a good angel volunteering to be God's prosecutor? Making sure sinners do not enter heaven....
Does God need really need a prosecutor for judement? No, And Yet – Zec 3 exist
Psa 109:6 Set a wicked man over him, let an accuser stand at his right hand.
-------------------------------- Question – who are the multiple gods of the 99%Rob replies" So only the Beast power, known in Greek as Satanas is behind this thing, not the Hebrew OT Hebrew, who is an angel volunteering as the lying medium for God, and obeys God's will and instructions? The Bible speaks little of angels, so you demand lots of texts, because for you such a theme shoudl have lots of texts, after all it's an important theme for you, otherwise you mock and doubt. Salvation is a major theme for GOD don't you think? Where are the major and numerous texts for sinners to be saved by GOD? What did Adam do when He transgressed? Nothing is recorded that Adam did, only some things GOD did, like clothe them. Why the lack of details Dave? And such a major theme too? WOW Robert – where is your answer? – Who do you say the 33 ‘other gods’ of the ahl areSo if Satanas, the great beast, the red dragon archon is so mentioned in the NT, where are the numerous text references to Satanas in the OT Dave, your loved ahl? EasyAdrammelech (2 Kings 17:7-37; 19:12-37) Adramelech, also called Adrammelech, was a form of sun god related to Moloch, worshiped by a people known as the Sepharvaim. The Sepharvites were originally Assyrians that settled in Samaria after the fall of the Northern Kingdom. Child sacrifices were made to Adrammelech by burning them in fire. Anammelech (2 Kings 17:7-37) Anammelech was another god of the Sepharvaim, whom they worshiped by sacrificing by burning their children in fire. Ashima (2 Kings 17:30) Another god worshiped by people in Samaria after the fall of the Northern Kingdom called the Hamath. Ashima was a goddess of fate and closely related to the Akkadian goddess Shimti, who is also known as Damkina and Ishtar Ashtoreth (Judges 10:6-16; 1 Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10, 31:10; 1 Kings 11:2-33) Ashtoreth was the goddess of the Sidonians and is also the name by which the Canaanite goddess Astarte is called in the Old Testament. She was the consort of the Canaanite storm god, Baal. Astarte, a.k.a. Ishtar, was worshiped by the Greeks as Aphrodite. The worship of Aphrodite was most concentrated on the island of Cyprus, but also held major importance in the city states of Sidon, Tyre, and Byblos. Ugaritic texts speak of the goddess Astarte as the goddess Athtart and is known as the "Face of Baal,” because together with the goddess Anat they restrained Baal from waging war upon deities. Astarte was the goddess of fertility, sexuality, and war. Her symbols were the lion, the horse, the sphinx, the dove, a star within a circle indicating the planet Venus, and has been called the evening star.6 Her cult must have been very popular, as it even swayed, or corrupted, the heart of wise King Solomon, for which he was criticized in I Kings 11:5. Astaroth, a.k.a. Ashtoreth, is described as a fowl angel, sitting upon an infernal dragon, with a viper on his right hand, and a breath of an intolerable stench. She could accurately speak about the past and predict the future. She knew the secrets of heaven and taught is followers sciences. He often spoke about the creator of spirits, and their sin and fall from grace, claiming that she fell not of her own accord.7 Baal (Numbers 25:3; Judges 10:6-32; 1 Samuel 7:3-4, 12:10; I Kings 16:31-32, 18:18-40; II Kings 10:18-28; II Kings 11:18; Jeremiah 19:4-13, 23:13-27, 32:29-35) Baal is referred to at least 78 times throughout the Old Testament scriptures. The word ‘Baal’ means lord or husband. He was the Canaanite storm god, the god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name, he was often called by many names, but most refer to a variety of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult idols. As a result, the name Baal came to refer to any god and even to human officials. Exact information is difficult because only the context of a text can indicate which god or goddess a text is describing because more than one god was called Baal and more than one goddess was called Ballat or Baalah. The god Baal normally required the sacrifice of children, by fire, often the first-born male child. Baalberith, a.k.a. Baal (Judges 8:27-33; 9:4-46) Baalim, aka Baal (Judges 2:3-19, 3:6-7; I Kings 18:18-40; II Chronicles 17:3-6, 24:7-18, 33:3-19, 34:3-25; Hosea 2:8-17, 11:2) Baalpeor, a.k.a. Baal (Numbers 25:1-5: Deuteronomy 4:3-28; Psalms 106:28-39; Hosea 9:10) Baell, another non-Biblical name for Baal, is often used to represent Baal as the first and principal king over all the powers of the east. When he is conjured up, Baell appeared with three heads; the first like a toad, the second like a man, and the third, like a cat. He also had the power to make man invisible and commanded sixty-six legions of devils. Bael is also the first demon listed in Johann Wierus’ Pseudomonarchia daemonum, 1563 and the Dictionnaire Infernal, by Collin de Plancy, 1863.8 Balam, also another non-Biblical name for Baal, is described as having three heads, the first of a bull, the second of a man, and the third of a ram. He also had a serpent’s tail, flaming eyes, and rode upon a furious bear, and claimed to be of the angelic order of dominations.9 Bel (Jeremiah 51:44) The name by which the Babylonian god, Marduk, is called in the Old Testament books of Jeremiah and Daniel, in addition to the Catholic Apocrypha. Chemosh (Numbers 21:29; Judges 11:24; 1 Kings 11:2-33; II Kings 3:5, 23:4-20; Jeremiah 48:7-46) Chemosh, also known from Ebla as Kamish, was the god of the Moabites. Judges 11:24 seems to indicate that he was also a god of the Ammonites as well. The name Chemosh meant destroyer, subduer, or "fish god. The worship of Chemosh was well known in the Old Testament. Some Biblical scholars indicate that the worship of this god, ‘the abomination of Moab,’ was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon, who built a temple to Chemosh in the mountains east of Jerusalem; while “The Talmud quoted by Rashi says that his wives built the temples and he is considered responsible for not stopping them.”10 However, later in scripture we are told that king Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). During one of the many wars between the Moabites and the Iraelites, On the Moabite stone, Mesha (2 Kings 3:5) ascribed his victories over the king of Israel to this god, "And Chemosh drove him before my sight."11 Dagon (Judges 16:23; 1 Samuel 5:2-7) Dagon was the god of the Philistines after they settled in the land of Canaan. Originally a Mesopotamian fertility god worshiped by the Akkadian, Amorites, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Ugarit. Confusion still exists if Dagon was a grain god, as symbol of fertility, or fish god, as symbol of multiplying. Dagon first appears on non-biblical Mari texts about 2500 BC. Dagon was the head of the large city complex which was home to some 200 deities.12 Kaiwan or Kiyyun (Amos 5:26) Associated with the planet Saturn, Amos calls Kaiwan “your star-god.” Kaiwan was an astral god worshiped by some people of the Northern Kingdom after they became servants of the Assyrians. Molech (Leviticus 20:2-3; I Kings 11:2-33; II Kings 23:4-20; 2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6, 32:35) The name Molech, the shameful king, comes from a combination of the Hebrew words ‘melek’, king, and ‘bosheth’, shame. He is an Ammonite god13 worship by the Canaanites, Phoenician and several cultures of North Africa. The name Molech is found in several forms, such as, Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. Jeremiah says that the Israelites offered their sons and daughters as a sacrifice by burning them. Molech is also known as Molcom a god worshipped by the Phoenicians and Canaanites. Nebo (Isaiah 46:1) In Hebrew, Nebo only appears once as the name of a Babylonian god. From non-Hebrew sources Nabu is the son of the god Marduk of Samaria and worshiped in Assyrian and Babylonian as the god of wisdom and writing. Originally, Nabu was introduced by the Amorites into Mesopotamia, at the same time as Marduk, somewhere around 2000 BC.16 Marduk became Babylon's main deity; Nabu was called the scribe and minister of Marduk. A major celebration of the Babylonian New Year Festival, the statue of Nabu was transported to Babylon in order to commune with his father Marduk. Nehushtan (Numbers 21:4-9; 2 Kings 18:4) Archaeologists have shown that snake cults were well established in Canaan in the Bronze Age. Serpent cult artifacts have been found at the pre-Israelite cities of Megiddo,18 Gezer,19 Hazor,20 and Shechem.21 The deity Nehushtan was associated with the 'fiery serpent' Moses made in the form of a snake of brass upon a pole to cure the Israelites from snakebites, during their journeys through the Sinai wilderness. Once it became an idol of worship by some people in Judah in the days of Hezekiah. In an act of religious reform King Hezekiah destroyed ‘the brazen serpent’ that Moses had made (2 Kings 18:4). Nibhaz (2 Kings 17:31) Nibhaz is the Hebrew word for ‘the barker.’ This god was worshiped by the Avvites, of Samaria. Non-Biblical record indicate this god was also worshiped in Syria, in the form of a dog.22, 23 Nisroch (2 Kings 19:12-37; Isaiah 37:12-38) Nisroch was the Assyrian god of agriculture. In the nob-Biblical text there is some confusion as to Nisroch’s true identity. Some scholars say he is the same god as Nusku or Dagon. A few theologians have even suggested that he was a fallen angel of the order of Principalities and an associate to Belphegor. I would clearify the terminology as an Archon, Nephilim, or Watcher. Johann Weyer and Collin de Plancy wrote that Nisroch is chief of cuisine to the princes in Hell.24 Rimmon (2 Kings 5:17-18;) A Syrian god mentioned rarely by name in scripture and is most likely just another name for the god Baal. Sakkuth or Sikkuth (Amos 5:26) Sakkuth is a Babylonian star god, who is mentioned alongside of the god Kaiwan, in the book of Amos. Succoth-benoth (2 Kings 17:7-37; 2 Kings 18:11) Whose name means ‘Booths of Daughters’ was a god of Babylon and Samaria. The Bible clearly says that says that these gods were idols, but because these Samaritans also worshipped the God of the Israelites they escaped punishment, at the time. Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14-15). Tammuz, meaning the faithful or true son, was a Sumerian god of food and vegetation, associated with the cycle of the harvest. In Babylonia, the month Tammuz coincided with what we would call today, autumn harvest celebrations. Although, in Babylonia, Ancient Near East, as in the Aegean, the decline in daylight hours, the waning of the summer heat, and oncoming drought resulted in a six-day "funeral" for the god. In a vision, the prophet Ezekiel saw these mourning ceremonies being observed at the very door of the Temple in Jerusalem. This was given as a Biblical prophecy, which expresses YHWH's message about His people's apostate worship of idols. Tartak (2 Kings 17:31) The god worshiped by the Avvites, of Samaria. The Queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-25) The goddess, Queen of Heaven, is only referred to in the book of Jeremiah. Although unidentified by scripture, she is inferred to be the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar, or possibly, the Canaanite goddess Ashtoreth. and of course do not forget The Serpent of Gen 3 satan's seed of Gen 3 The bane elohiym of Gen 6 and their Nephilim / Rephiem The Sons of Anak and the 7 tribes of Amorite Beelzebub and his shedimHow would you write Satanas in the Hebrew language so we could go looking for the power you speak of? G1228 – διάβολος - From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer. G1228 – KJV word search = 0 uses in 0 verse in the ahl G1228 – KJV word search – 38 uses in 36 verses in the agl I see the two words as the same, Satanas and Satan, One is of Hebrew origine and one is of Chaldean originHebrew H7854 - śâṭân - From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, H7853 - śâṭan - A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: Hebrew satan is the accuser – as in a prosecutor – accusing you of sin Chaldean G4567 – satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - satanas. G1228 – διάβολος - From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer. Here is the differenceHebrew satan accuses you truthfully – he points out our sin proving we are unworthy This is the role of a prosecutor – an angel of the lord – in service to God Chaldean satan = the devil – who is a FALSE ACCUSER – liar – a trouble maker – a deceiverBut you choose not to see the difference Just lump it all together in English and call it Catholic Fallen Angels Very fex texts on dragon in the OT Dave, you would have trouble convincing me of your dragon archon thing as anything, never existed as you say in the OT, where is it mentioned? It's not.So you deny that the serpent of Gen 3 is the same as the serpent of Rev 12:9 If the serpent of Gen 3 is not of the devil or the beast or satanas – who is your serpent?Very fex texts on dragon in the OT DaveYou say this because you do not grasp the difference between the ahl and the agl 9- KJV word search for DEVIL in the KJV OT = 0 uses in 0 verses Question – why doesn’t the ahl speak of the agl devil – ?The answer to this is so simple – and you simply don’t get it The ahl is the story of God’s Chosen PeopleSure there is the personal message within – but the Tanak is about Israel vrs the WORLD Who is the God of Israel = YWHY - Who are the multiple gods of the 99% all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets – who are Baal, Moloch, etc Who was the god of the Philistines = Beelzebub and his shedim In all of the 99% gods are multiple – and selfish – and act like spoiled children = (yester ra) only archon In all of the 99% gods father children – many also have demi-god children In all of these 99% gods and devils shapeshift – appear and disappear In all of these 99% gods and devils – they control matter – wind / storms / rain Just as King Solomon described Beelzebub and his shedim Just as the Gnostic Archon are here to keep you sidetracked with WORLD Who are the ‘other gods’ of the ahl all of them = the Beast / the devil / the agl satanas / the false prophets – who are Baal, Moloch, etc Who was the god of the Philistines = Beelzebub and his shedim The agl is a personal story It is about you vrs the WORLD It is about you vrs the archon of this WORLD – satan’s seed of gen 3:15 It is about you and the satanas in your face It is about your vrs the BEAST - and the multiple gods within it the Beast / archon / devils / principalities / Beelzebub and his shedim Hab 1:6 For I am about to raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter, impetuous nation, marching all over the land, to seize dwellings not its own. It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that is in your face It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that wants you in his kingdom – be in the WORLD It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that tempts you with WORLD – lust / greed / power / fame All agl satanas had to offer Jesus Christ was – this WORLD The Beast, The devil, satanas, the serpent were cast into 100% of the WORLD – it is their WORLD They were here first – then came Adam and Israel the 1% with YHWY as their God The rest of the WORLD – the 99% still belong to The Beast, the devil, satanas, the serpent Who are the gods of the 99% the ‘other gods’ – they are still the Beast, the devil, satanas, the serpent The entire saga of the ahl was Israel as a nation / as a people vrs the WORLD and their other gods You say there is not much mentioned about the Beast in the ahl – I say you have never read the ahlAnd in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutor This is an angel of the lord – working for the Lord – doing a hard job It is not the Best of revelation – the devil – or any god of evil The Gospel of the agl is about YOU and your struggle with the principalities of Eph 6 You against the satanas who is of the Beast, the devil, and the serpent If you wish to present two separate powers of RA, than where is your lots of ahl texts? Stop demanding I show you stuff, when you can't show me your stuff?The serpent of Gen 3 – satans’s seed of Gen 3 – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – the neplilim and rephiem – the 7 tribes of Amorite – the Sons of Anak – the 33 other god of the ahl – who are they – where do you say they came from? Still awaiting your answer?--------------------------- Just as King Solomon described Beelzebub and his shedim Just as the Gnostic Archon are here to keep you sidetracked with WORLD No mention of this by Solomon in Ecclesiastes Dave, only other books we assume Solomon wrote. Maybe he did when he was an evil king, lost to Satan for a few years, and later found GOD again. Inspired scrolls are chosen for a reason by people who support GOD. Not a single mention of archon in the OT hebrew Dave. Show me your numerous texts. The serpent of Gen 3 – satans’s seed of Gen 3 – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – the neplilim and rephiem – the 7 tribes of Amorite – the Sons of Anak – the 33 other god of the ahl – who are they – where do you say they came from? Still awaiting your answer?------------------------------- Hab 1:6 For I am about to raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter, impetuous nation, marching all over the land, to seize dwellings not its own. It is agl satanas of Chaldean origin that is in your face Rob replies" Nice twist Dave. Gnostics just see this as a New World without the BEAST / The Great Red Dragon / the devil / the satanas / the false prophets Rob replies" So Satan the angel who volunteered as a lying medium, obeying God, and as a prosecutor is allowed to live forever with GOD, its Satanas that is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Is this your idea Dave? You have failed to answer why it is a sin to be a servant to the Lord?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2021 16:30:01 GMT -5
D" Yep – that’s what I said – “Easy – definition of sin – transgressing the Law / disobeying God” Adam diobeyed a commandment of GOD,R" Yes Dave, Adam broke a commandment of the LORD, but He (adam) did not miss the power of the Lord, it was not termed a SIN. So Which creature SINNED first? Obviously NOT man. The only torah Scripture that answers this question is Ezekiel 28 with cherub chata. And angel sinned first, not a human. This is a significant statement you totally miss from the torah. And if you read Rev 20 this angel is termed the serpent in the Garden of Eden. D" Honesty Robert – you try to slip away by twisting Great Red Dragon, the Beast, the Dragon, the devil, the serpent, the satanas, and the false prophets are all of the same family archon – all belong to the Beast of RevelationR" You are not honest Dave. How many strong authorities of TOV are there ? One two or three? Just ONE. So how many strong authiorities of RA are there? the opposite powers of GOD? One two or three? Has to be ONE. You even twist to make these powers from the same GOD. Than you twist to make one RA power into two separate RA powers, the dragon is different from Satan, the prosecuting angel. Now you have three powers of RA, GOD, Angel Prosecutor and Archon Yalboath. D"It is clear Earth was already present before Creation Week began Day 1 is before the week began? R" Yes Dave, but time is not an absolute thing to GOD. There is no time with GOD. There are only 2 fundamentals with GOD, there are Matter and Space. Time is not a fundamental. Time is the movement of matter relative to space. And so GOD moves over the Matter of Earth, already present there in darkness because angels are banished there, and GOD needs to resolve the SIN problem they caused (not the first creatures to SIN are angels) and so places HIS presence over earth for a limited TIME, and from a particular day, TIME begins to move forward relative to light hitting it, this is termed DAY ONE. The Creation of things added to earth begin, while the sinful angels banished there watch on the earth, while sinless angels watch also above. D"A (lost it in edit) R" OK if you agree with me, where is the Satanas Hebrew word for Satanas? There isn't one. The only word in Hebrew for this being is Satan, the opponent. D" YES – Absolutely Agree – the Beast and his plurality of archon were cast into earth of Gen 1:1 And entropy is introduced into physical creation = choshekR wow so far so good D" More of the Robert Honesty Gnostic Cathars saw Rev 12:3 as physical creation Dave said The Beast is just the first sentient made with some matterR" now you mention crap Dave. Come one show me the Creation of Satanas, the Beast power here in Genesis. You can't, because it was the angels created trillions of years before this Creation make over of Earth began. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness... Where is this place ? Earth. When did this happen? before Earth got it's Creation makeover. I have verses that fit Dave, where are yours ? DR " Does God need really need a prosecutor for judement? No,D" And Yet – Zec 3 exist
R" Come on Dave, its a scene of the Day of Atonement, with a temple, not a court room. Zec 1:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, God's house, a temple, not a court room. Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 ¶ Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. Notice again, the temple, God's house, also we have clues to the Branch, Jesus. Jesus is our High Priest, in a temple house in Heaven, not one earth. Does the Devil visit heavens temple to prosecute the sinners declared as saints by Jesus there? DO a study of court room judgements in heaven.... are there any with a prosecutor there ? None Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Here is a judgement, no mention of a prosecutor Re 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. A second judgement, again, no mention of a prosecutor. Why two judgements here in the end of time? The first are the saints who judge the wicked.... we investigate the records carefully, including the sinning angels and Satan. The second judgement, GOD gives the wicked reasons for their sins, and all who sin are thrown into the fires to become non-existent. Not a single prosecutor mentioned. R" So if Satanas, the great beast, the red dragon archon is so mentioned in the NT, where are the numerous text references to Satanas in the OT Dave, your loved ahl? D" EasyR" Dave lists a pile of texts without supplying the texts. Adrammelech Anammelech Ashima Ashtoreth Astarte Astaroth Baal Baalberith Baalpeor Baell Balam Bel Chemosh Dagon OK readers you get the idea here, a huge list of different pagan deities. OK Dave and where is the Hebrew word listing all these pagan deities as Satanas? There isn't one. D" Here is the difference Hebrew satan accuses you truthfully – he points out our sin proving we are unworthy This is the role of a prosecutor – an angel of the lord – in service to God
Chaldean satan = the devil – who is a FALSE ACCUSER – liar – a trouble maker – a deceiver But you choose not to see the difference Just lump it all together in English and call it Catholic Fallen Angels R "Ok if there is a difference, where is the Hebrew OT writing the difference? There arn't any verses Dave. First of all if these different deities were in fact Satanas, the Hebrew would say so, but it doesn't. In fact the Hebrew tells you that Nimrod, the first opponent of GOD on earth as a human, began Babylon, a Hebrew word meaning confusion, or in the Babylonian language later, meaning gateway to the Gods of heaven. So Satan has many ways to confuse humans. Hence the many names of Himself as pagan deities. D" So you deny that the serpent of Gen 3 is the same as the serpent of Rev 12:9R" No I don't Dave, the serpent is a functional descriptor of a sinning angel called Satan, the opponent of GOD, the first creature who sinned. You suggest only Satanas is the bad one, and this good angel prosecutor as Satan is a good guy helping God. Does God really need the help of angels dealing with salvation? Isn't God divine enough on His own, that He required finite creatures to see sin, only the infinite sees anyhow. Really Dave. a finite creature would be a lousy prosecutor? A creature cannot read sinning in the mind, but GOD can. You are silly thinking the infinite judge requires a finite investigator. D" The Beast, The devil, satanas, the serpent were cast into 100% of the WORLD – it is their WORLD They were here first – then came Adam and Israel R" COrrect. Why was the serpent, devil satanas already in the world on earth? Because they sinned. Why was earth getting a Creation Makeover with non sinning citizens brand new, because such creatures have never sees sin before, so in a court room stage, you require law abiding citizens to witness to SIN afterwards, to convict the SINNING that happened before. The purpose of Man was to witness against SIN, from these angels sinning. But alas the sinning angel tempted man to transgress. SO GOD lost His witness to the SIN problem. D" And in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutorR" What? The "messenger of elohiym" is Jesus-YHWH, not some cherub malak as you claim Dave. Read the Hebrew carefully not fuzzy translations. D" The serpent of Gen 3 – satans’s seed of Gen 3 – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – the neplilim and rephiem – the 7 tribes of Amorite – the Sons of Anak – the 33 other god of the ahl – who are they – where do you say they came from?R" Made up stuff Dave. Satan and his angels can make any deity of RA they wish, and they do. Hence over the years they market different gods for different times and cultures. R" Not a single mention of archon in the OT hebrew Dave. Show me your numerous texts. D" you copy and paste, you didn't even read my words. D"Yo u have failed to answer why it is a sin to be a servant to the Lord?R" And you have failed to show me the numerous Satanas texts in the Hebrew OT. There arn't any. 1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. This has to be a time when cherub could travel to earth and back again to vist GOD in heaven on His throne. 1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. The word here is ruwach, also known as MEDIUM, referenced as the holy Spirit. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. Notice the Holy Spirit will go forth and be a lying medium in the mouth of the false prophets. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. So the Holy Spirit becomes an administrator for the lying medium to make RA over the false prophets. There is not a single reference here to malak, cherub, only ruwach. Our Hebrew English translator Mrs White speaks of this verse as Satan is the agent of RA. So so does this work in the way the Hebrew presents it? A medium, is a function of the HS, that channels a flow of power from somebody else. That flow of power is mentioned in other OT verses, such as when Saul lost his flow from GOD and Satan flowed into Saul. This verse is not presenting as Dave claims some angel volunteering to go the lying medium. Not a single reference to cherub, malak or any other reference to an angel. The term here is ruwach, the HS. The HS does not empower good or bad, it only is a medium, a conduit for the flow of other powers flowing through it. Hence the HS allows good or bad to flow through it. Where does the power of any of us come from? From the HS medium. None of us are an island, this includes the devil. All things are administrated by GOD. D" why it is a sin to be a servant to the Lord? No where does this verse imply GOD is asking any creature to do GOD's work ? The HS is an administrator of all works of GOD. If GOD relaxs his powers of TOV, the Devil-Satan-opponent automatically fills in the void with his flow of RA. That is what I see here. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 17, 2021 18:03:39 GMT -5
R" Yes Dave, Adam broke a commandment of the LORD, but He (adam) did not miss the power of the Lord, it was not termed a SIN. So Which creature SINNED first? Obviously NOT man. The only torah Scripture that answers this question is Ezekiel 28 with cherub chata. So you demand that scripture liesRom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. Persinaaly – I’ll stick with scriptureD"Honesty Robert – you try to slip away by twisting Great Red Dragon, the Beast, the Dragon, the devil, the serpent, the satanas, and the false prophets are all of the same family archon – all belong to the Beast of Revelation R" You are not honest Dave. How many strong authorities of TOV are there ? One two or three? Just ONE.
So how many strong authiorities of RA are there? the opposite powers of GOD? One two or three? Has to be ONE. This must be you reasoning for your doctrine Dave writes: " See – you have two Kings and two godsYes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that? Sorry Robert – Rev 12 speaks to a whole family of beings - a plurality – The Beast – the devil – the satanas – the serpent - and false prophetsDR "Does God need really need a prosecutor for judement? No, D" And Yet – Zec 3 exist R" Come on Dave, its a scene of the Day of Atonement, with a temple, not a court room.Come on Robert – every rabbi and Christian leader see this passage as satan the prosecutor R"So if Satanas, the great beast, the red dragon archon is so mentioned in the NT, where are the numerous text references to Satanas in the OT Dave, your loved ahl? R" Dave lists a pile of texts without supplying the texts.EXCEUSE ME – the scripture references were providedEither the other gods of the 99% are real – or scripture is filled with errorYour personal efforts to deny the principalities of our real struggle is obvious They don't really exist you say - just focus upon satan the god of evil like a good CatholicMake a person ponder which side you are on - all you have done for two years is defend your satan god Does God really need the help of angels dealing with salvation? Sure Robert – all of God’s angels are useless – they don’t do anything – they just watch God and your satan war with one another – Sure – like anyone believes thatD" And in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutor R" What? The "messenger of elohiym" is Jesus-YHWH, not some cherub malak as you claim Dave. Read the Hebrew carefully not fuzzy translations.Why can’t you answer – why is it a sin for ahl satan to obey the LordD"The serpent of Gen 3 – satans’s seed of Gen 3 – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – the neplilim and rephiem – the 7 tribes of Amorite – the Sons of Anak – the 33 other god of the ahl – who are they – where do you say they came from? R" Made up stuff Dave. Satan and his angels can make any deity of RA they wish, and they do. Hence over the years they market different gods for different times and cultures. Correct – for your theology to be correct = most of the ahl and agl must be error Why doesn’t your version of the ahl just call all these different entities satan – why all the different names if you only have R"Not a single mention of archon in the OT hebrew Dave. Show me your numerous texts. D" you copy and paste, you didn't even read my words. OK – them you answer my question – who are the other gods of the Levant Who is Allah
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Post by Richard on Jul 18, 2021 5:03:06 GMT -5
D" And in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutorR" What? The "messenger of elohiym" is Jesus-YHWH, not some cherub malak as you claim Dave. Read the Hebrew carefully not fuzzy translations. Old Testament satan is not an angel but actually Jesus Christ. How could a Christian say such a thing?Satan is not a creator, because satan is not a god!Num 23:19 God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind! Does He speak and then not do it, or promise and not fulfill it? Tit 1:2 based on the hope of eternal life. God—who cannot lie—promised this before the beginning of time. Heb 6:18 So by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us Robert, in your effort to defend the doctrine of satan, you seem to have no problem disrespecting the Lord. You need to stop and consider your own words.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 15:34:43 GMT -5
D" And in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutorR" What? The "messenger of elohiym" is Jesus-YHWH, not some cherub malak as you claim Dave. Read the Hebrew carefully not fuzzy translations.Richard says" Old Testament satan is not an angel but actually Jesus Christ. How could a Christian say such a thing?
Rob replies" Do you have any idea what you're saying Richard? As a Pastor do you read Hebrew and Greek behind the Bible texts like Dave and I do? I assume Dave is referring to this text: Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. (KJV) Let's see the Hebrew behind this translation Nu 22:22 And Elohiym-Power's anger was kindled because Baalim went: and the messenger of the LORD stood in the way for an satan against him. Now Baalim was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with Baalim. What Dave, I assume says" in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutor", I assume Dave is saying this "messenger of YHWH" is an angel functioning as a satan and as a prosecutor for YHWH. One has to assume malak always means cherub, which it does NOT. Malak means messenger always, and sometimes the messenger can be angels, often humans, and sometimes even the prexisting Jesus of Elohiym. The word satan meaning oppose/opponent (I use Jeff Benner's meanings this time) is always this meaning for every use of the word in both verb and noun forms. The meaning cannot mean "doing a few hard jobs for the Lord" implies the meaning can be used for something else than opponent. SO why was the messenger of YHWH being an opponent to Baalim? Because Baalim was going to curse Israel instead of bless Israel , since Baalim was a sinning false prophet. The context of satan as a word is always in every sentence about SIN or RA or transgressions of the LAW, hence these things oppose GOD and the functional goodness of GOD. SO Richard I never said your statement , you have assumed this yourself. Since you love occasionally to be my opponent, would you like to discuss what the term satan means in Scripture than? Richard says" Satan is not a creator, because satan is not a god! OK Richard, you're a Pastor of a congregation, with no satan in your doctrine, just how than do your explain the origin of this word, and the origin of sin? DO you understand the term " bara" meaning what ? Jos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down (bara) for thyself there Jos 17:18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down (bara) : and the outgoings of it shall be thine: 1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat (bara) with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? Of course Richard , Satan cannot create like GOD can, ( ), but you go on to further getting off the track... These above verses cannot have "create" in them, it does not fit. Nor as Dave world like, "fat/fatted" in them either, it does not fit. But the term "engineer" fits does fit all the verses. Jos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and "engineer" for thyself there (ie make something from wood) Jos 17:18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt "engineer" : and the outgoings of it shall be thine: (ie make something from wood) 1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to engineer yourself fat, with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? "make yourself fat" the idea of biologically engineering - eating food that makes you fat" So creatures do have a limited ability to engineer. I have heard first hand of demonic spirits in Papua New Guinea changing into animal forms, or inhabiting humans, etc. What say you Richard, on this matter, limited ability to engineer? Richard says " Robert, in your effort to defend the doctrine of satan, you seem to have no problem disrespecting the Lord. You need to stop and consider your own words.
Rob replies, now you know why I sometimes avoid discussing certain Hebrew verses, for some readers, publicly, I am sorry if I have caused readers to doubt. Sometimes hard Hebrew verses are best left alone, but Dave your friend keeps wanting answers from this verse, which does not have angel in it or a messenger, but the term ruwach, which always means the HS functioning as a medium. Do you even understand what a medium is or does Richard? for example wind is actually a medium, the energy from the Lord acts on the air (media) and causes a flow of moverment through the medium of air, which we term wind, but the ruwach is no ordinary wind, but the flow of Elohiym Power. Sometimes hard Hebrew verses are best left alone, and so we concentrate on the easier Hebrew verses instead. Check the Hebrew verses yourself. 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. Here the KJV translation does a nice job to avoid this issue for readers, but the Hebrew makes it into a hard subject to understand. 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the ruwach of the LORD departed from Saul, and an RA ruwach from the LORD troubled him. See the problem? If you understand the ruwach is a medium, and agency for different flows administrated by GOD, it makes sense, otherwise stick to the KJV, it does a nice job, without telling you anything why it writes the way it does. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 18, 2021 22:37:52 GMT -5
Richard says" Old Testament satan is not an angel but actually Jesus Christ. How could a Christian say such a thing?
Rob replies" Do you have any idea what you're saying Richard? As a Pastor do you read Hebrew and Greek behind the Bible texts like Dave and I do?
I assume Dave is referring to this text:
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. (KJV)
Let's see the Hebrew behind this translation
What Dave, I assume says" in the ahl there is an ‘Angel of the lord’ that does a few hard jobs for God called satan the prosecutor", I assume Dave is saying this "messenger of YHWH" is an angel functioning as a satan and as a prosecutor for YHWH. The word satan meaning oppose/opponentThis is the Robert methodYou brought this argument to this forum – satan is the opposer And you are the one who brought Balaam into the discussion The angel of the Lord opposes Balaam – therefore the angel of the lord is a satan And my question to you was – why is it a sin for this angels to obey God
You even went further to discuss – God is opposing Balaam And my question to you was – So God is an opposer – a satan – does this mean God opposes Himself Because your opposer always opposes GodRemember your own proof - any being opposing man is opposing GodThe word satan meaning oppose/opponent (I use Jeff Benner's meanings this time) is always this meaning for every use of the word in both verb and noun forms. The meaning cannot mean "doing a few hard jobs for the Lord" implies the meaning can be used for something else than opponent. SO why was the messenger of YHWH being an opponent to Baalim? One has to assume malak always means cherub, which it does NOT. Malak means messenger always, and sometimes the messenger can be angels, often humans, and sometimes even the prexisting Jesus of Elohiym.Sorry Robert – cherub is just one of 9 basic types of angels You also deny this theology that has been held for 4000 yearsRichard says" Satan is not a creator, because satan is not a god! OK Richard, you're a Pastor of a congregation, with no satan in your doctrine, just how than do your explain the origin of this word, and the origin of sin? Quakers Engaging with the World - What are Quaker testimonies?Quakers find that attending to the Light Within influences the ways we act in our personal lives, as well as the changes we work for in the wider world. We have noticed that certain values seem to arise more or less consistently when we try to stay close to the guidance of the Inward Teacher, and we call these principles our “testimonies.” They are not so much rules that we try to obey as the outcomes of our efforts to live in harmony with the Holy Spirit. Some commonly recognized testimonies include peace, integrity, equality, simplicity, community, and care for the earth. Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” Doctrinal Statement – Friends Church Malone UniversityOne God, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The deity of Jesus Christ, in whose person are united the divine and human natures so that He is truly both God and man; His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, vicarious and atoning death; His bodily resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father, and His personal return in power and glory. The present ministry of the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of sin and regenerating, sanctifying, guiding and empowering believers. The plenary inspiration of the Scriptures, their essential unity and their inviolable authority. The fall of man through the sin of our first parents; the death and hopelessness of man apart from the work of redemption wrought by Jesus Christ. Reconciliation with God through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ by repentance for sin and receiving forgiveness and new life by faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. Sanctification of the reconciled believer through the operation of the Holy Spirit by the complete dedication of believers to God and the receiving by faith of cleansing from enmity against God; by walking in daily obedience as true and fervent disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ and growing more like Him in maturity of character; and by following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and receiving His empowerment for continuous victory over sin and service unto God. Our obligation to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ, making disciples of all men everywhere. The spiritual unity of all believers in our Lord Jesus Christ. The immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, the final judgment of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ, resulting in the eternal fellowship of the righteous with God, and the eternal separation of the wicked from God. The struggle is with self and our desire for this world – (yester ra) vrs (yester tov) Rich and I have had many discussions over the years we have known one another (2002) Paul chapter 7 – Paul struggles with his only fleshly nature Eph 6:12 – our real struggle – rulers of this world – of course it is the dragon / beast / devil / satan Are they something to fear – no – they are just things of the WORLD – it’s their WORLDPsa 23:1 A psalm of David. Adonai is my shepherd, I shall not want. Psa 23:2 He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. Psa 23:3 He restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for His Name’s sake. Psa 23:4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me: Your rod and Your staff comfort me. Psa 23:5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You have anointed my head with oil, my cup overflows. Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the House of Adonai forever. Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Man is souljourning through the WORLD of the archon While we are here we are tested by God, by the WORLD, and by the rulers of this WORLD Just as Paul tells us in Eph 6DO you understand the term "bara" meaning what ? Of course Richard , Satan cannot create like GOD can, ( ), but you go on to further getting off the track...
These verses cannot have "create" in them, it does not fit. Nor as Dave world like, "fat/fatted" in them either, it does not fit. But the term "engineer" fits does fit all the verses.Jos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and "engineer" for thyself there (ie make something from wood)Jos 17:18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt "engineer" : and the outgoings of it shall be thine: (ie make something from wood)OK – I said once that they fattened the wood into weapons – and you laughed at me Now you say – make something of wood You could also argue that the rocks and soil of the mountain – is to used in the making (fattening) I say the weapons were fattened out of the mountain and the wood - and you disagreeYou say the weapons were made from the wood – and that’s OKYou just choose to stumble over words – just to argue and cast doubt1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to engineer yourself fat, with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? Correction1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? H1254 – בָּרָא - bârâ' - A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat). to make yourselves fat To be honest your verse should read1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to engineer yourself, with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? Then you say - "make yourself fat" the idea of biologically engineering - eating food that makes you fat"Where do you get that from your version of the verse? What does - to engineer yourself, with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people – mean?You present some statements here – but leave us pondering – what does it mean? What is your point? – do you have one?Gen 1:1 In the beginning God bara the heavens and the earth. God did not make something out of nothing – but nothing existed before God except God Gen 1:1 God fattened into the heavens and the earth – and this is just another example of how the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God at a distance – sustains all things – it also explains how God is omnipresent Richard says "Robert, in your effort to defend the doctrine of satan, you seem to have no problem disrespecting the Lord. You need to stop and consider your own words.You deny that God is absolute You preach that God is weak and your satan strong You preach that even God’s own angels hate God You preach even angels can fall from God’s Grace You preach that there is no way Jesus Christ could have been God on earth You preach the idea of One True God is error – it is actually 3 different and independent gods working together as a team – you say this is the only way Love can exist You absolutely deny the soul – and the salvation of the soul You mock Jews or Christians who claim to have a spiritual encounter All of this is disrespectful to the teaching of the Torah and the Gospel All of your doctrine is anti-Christian to most any Christian I have ever studied with. All of your doctrine is opposed to everything I hold dearAnd for any question – you only have one answer – cherub chatah satan is a god Then fail to answer the real question put to youD- Job was righteous - why was he afflicted - he believed R" Job was afflicted because GOD wanted to answer every possible accusation the Opposer could throw at GOD's salvation process. YES – Thank you for finally admitting it – God tested JobHow did God test Job – he sent satan after Job Satan obeyed God and opposed Job Satan – God’s loyal servant – obeyed God – did what God wanted – for GodAnd you refuse to answer why it is a sin for satan to obey God You cannot answer my question because it conflicts with your bias You bias demand that ahl satan be evil and a sinner and opposing God – yet scripture fail to support your doctrine
2Sam24 +1Chr21 does not support your bias 1Kings22 does not support your bias The entire Book of Job does not fit your bias
Either scripture is wrong – or your bias is wrong R" Well than my friend explain the reason why do disagree with Scripture here? How else can an angel be written as cherub with also the term chata, if the law is not also eternal and binding to all creatures, as well as the Creator?1- precept upon precept, line upon line – your cherub chata does not agree with the bulk of scripture Instead of deferring to the bulk of scripture – you choose these two words as Gold 2- of the 23 + 49 verse about ahl satan – not once did satan oppose God – instead he obeyed God and opposed man Precept upon precept, line upon line72 verse saying something opposite to your one verse How is this possible – answer – you do not understand your one verse 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. Here the KJV translation does a nice job to avoid this issue for readers, but the Hebrew makes it into a hard subject to understand. 1Sa 16:14 ¶ But the ruwach of the LORD departed from Saul, and an RA ruwach from the LORD troubled him. See the problem? If you understand the ruwach is a medium, and agency for different flows administrated by GOD, it makes sense, otherwise stick to the KJV, it does a nice job, without telling you anything why it writes the way it does.
but the term ruwach, which always means the HS functioning as a medium.Now you preach that the Holy Spirit is an evil spiritAnd you don’t think this is disrespectful to God or scripture?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 3:21:12 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave says" not once did satan oppose God – instead he obeyed God and opposed man Precept upon precept, line upon line 72 verse saying something opposite to your one verse How is this possible – answer – you do not understand your one verse.Rob replies" You say not once does Satan, the angel oppose GOD? Every verse that uses the term "satan/verb/noun" is about mankind, never about GOD? When you define Satan, the angel, as a prosecutor obeying GOD, who tempts man to sin, is this a functional role of a prosecutor? There are certainly many websites, with Jews, that agree with your views"I quote" criminaldefenselawyertx.com/satan-was-a-prosecutor-jesus-was-a-defense-lawyer/I watched the 3 minute video even. blog.dianoigo.com/2015/02/satan-prosecutor.html
Satan is portrayed here as an overzealous prosecutor who engages in what would be called ‘entrapment’ in a modern legal context. He induces people to sin so that he might prosecute them (and, having won his case, he also plays the role of executioner)."R" Wow. entrapment is even seen as OK? www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/
The Hebrew word śāṭān, meaning “accuser” or “adversary,” occurs several times throughout the Hebrew Bible and refers to enemies both human and celestial alike. When referring to the celestial adversary, the word is typically accompanied by the definite article. He is ha-satan—the Accuser—and it is a job description rather than a proper name. From the Accuser’s appearances in the Books of Job and Zechariah, it seems that the job entails calling attention to the unworthiness of mankind. The Accuser is essentially the prosecuting attorney of the divine court of YHWH, and part of his job includes collecting evidence to prove his cases.
The Greek word diabolos (from which “devil” is derived), meaning “slanderer,” comes from a verb that means “to hurl” (i.e., accusations).
Diabolos was typically used as the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew śāṭān (in the Septuagint version of Job, for example), though it was not uncommon to simply transliterate the word into the Greek satanas (1 Kings 11:14).
Belial, a popular name among the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which means “worthless” or “corrupt.” “Children of Belial” (Hebrew: bene-belial) was a typical phrase used to describe evil people in the Hebrew Bible (e.g., Deuteronomy 13:13; 1 Samuel 1:16; 2 Chronicles 13:7, etc.). If someone were searching for a name that personified evil in the Hebrew Bible, it would be Belial, not Satan. Interesting enough, the name only occurs once in the New Testament (2 Corinthians 6:15), as Paul’s stark contrast to Christ.
End quote: OK, show me the texts where GOD requires a prosecutor? There aren't any. All your evidence, (Job and Zechariah) is human interpretation of the verses. But I do see your point, just do not agree. The only way I can oppose your idea, is to prove to you that Satan is no prosecutor. So let's study the judgement scenes in the OT, no mention of a prosecutor. So let's study the Day of Atonement scene, here is the Azarial Goat, but no prosecutor in the Lev 16 process. You have a problem Dave, not a single mention of a prosecutor. Why would GOD require one ? God sees our sins before we sin. A creature cannot do that. Prove to me Satan as a prosecutor, is required by GOD. You can't. But if you use the NT, where the Satan is termed an accuser of the brethren, Satan is one who accuses us of sin. Why? To stop GOD saving people. This is a different role as a prosecutor. More like the catalyst who temps man to keep on sinning. Ask yourself why would a creature want humans to sin? Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2021 14:17:22 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
This is perhaps the best article on the topic of Satan and answers all your queries. It includes some Gnostic thoughts, OT Jew thoughts, and NT thoughts, really well written.
I Quote it all"
MARCH 26, 2016 BY JACOB WRIGHT The Real, Biblical Satan is Not At All What You Think
The Bible shows a progression of thought concerning the divine. Coming out of the pagan cultures of the Earth, Israel’s faith evolved from polytheism, or henotheism, to monotheism. Just as with many concepts within the Bible – through its different authors and writings spanning thousands of years – we see a plurality of views wrestling with each other and evolving into new ways of thinking concerning the nature of the divine.
Many Christians today seem to think that there is a unanimous voice in scripture concerning the nature of the metaphysical concepts that it describes. However, in dealing with metaphysical concepts, we must admit that it is a “through a glass darkly.” Metaphor, analogy, anthropomorphism, parable, poetry, and myth are constantly employed by the writers of the Bible. There is not always consistency with language when trying to grasp existential and metaphysical realities.
When we actually read and study the Bible and its history and culture, we find that the concepts within the Bible are very much evolving and progressing with new voices being added to the discussion. The Bible, after all, was written not by one person, but by dozens of people over the course of thousands of years. The story of human existence and culture and awareness is one of learning and growing and evolving into new understandings, and religion is not exempt from this process.
The multivocal and progressive nature of the Bible, instead of being seen as a threat (shaking the self-certain evangelical insistence of inerrancy), should be viewed as a beautiful testament to this faithful universal Presence that is drawing us up and forward into truth, relating to us where we are at, and summoning history towards himself. God is with us in the process.
With the generations that unfold from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we see a progressive nature to the way people see God, and this was all leading up to Jesus, as discussed in a previous article. But there are other metaphysical ideas that are evolving in the scriptures too, such as what we normally see as the antithesis to God, the character that we call “Satan.”
We are told many times in the New Testament that all before Christ was a shadow – that no one saw God or knew God before Christ – but that Christ fully displays what God is like. All revelation of God before Jesus was a shadow, but Jesus is the reality and the fullness. The living, breathing, walking and talking man Jesus is God-incarnate.
“The image of the invisible God.” (Col. 1:15) “The radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God’s being.” (Heb. 1:3) “In whom all the fullness of God dwells in bodily form.” (Col. 2:9)
Christ said of himself, “Whoever sees the Son has seen the Father” (John 14:9). So, whereas in the Old Testament you see a shadowy revelation of God, it was progressing and leading up to the fullness of divine revelation in the person of Christ. Not just a vision, not just an epiphany, not just an inspired writing, but the unveiled Word of the Father in the flesh, of whom it is true, “everything the Father does, the Son does likewise” (John 5:19).
A shadow is very… shadowy. It can be misconstrued and misinterpreted. For example, in the Old Testament, the saints believed God was sic’ing evil spirits on people to deceive and torment them (1 Kings 22:22, 1 Samuel 16:14-16). They believe that God was holding the power of death and destruction over them, wielding it upon humanity according to his pleasure, exactly as the surrounding nations perceived their own gods. This application of destructive power was viewed as “the wrath of God.”
But in the New Testament, we never see Jesus partnering with evil spirits, only casting them out. He portrays the Father, not as the author of death and destruction, but rather the author of life. The writer of Hebrews says that it is the devil who wields the power of death, not God, and that Christ came to destroy him who holds the power of death (Heb 2:14).
In Acts 10:38, we are told that Christ went about healing all those under the power of the devil, because God was with him. Furthermore, John says that the reason Jesus was revealed was to undo all the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This means that sickness, torment, and death, the things Jesus undid and healed people from, were of the devil rather than from God, and the reason Christ was able to heal them was because God was with him.
So what’s the deal here? Is satan the author of death and destruction or is God? Is God revealed in Jesus, who opposes satan and all of his works of death and destruction and disease and demons…. or not?
All of theology comes down to this question: What is God like? But more specifically, we could ask questions like:
Is God like the devil sometimes? Does God steal, kill, and destroy human lives sometimes? Is all of the Bible equally true, or does the God we see in Jesus trump conflicting views in the Old Testament? Does God partner with evil to bring destruction and torment on people for their wrongs as shown sometimes in the Old Testament? If God is like the father in the parable of the prodigal son, does there ever come a point where if the son doesn’t return, the father sets out on the road to hunt the son down in order to angrily kill him? Is sin a crime that God needs to destroy us for, or a deadly disease that God desires to heal us from? Is God out to both destroy us and save us? Is God both our enemy and our Savior? Is God trying to save us from his own plan to destroy us? Is God schizophrenic? To answer these questions, we need to understand the multivocal and progressive nature of scripture. One important aspect is to understand the development of the concept of the character called “satan” in the scriptures.
“The Satan”
In the days of the Old Testament, “satan” was a general term for that which was opposed or adverse. It means “enemy/adversary”. The angel of the Lord that stood in the way of Balaam and his donkey is called a “satan” against Balaam (Number 22:32), God raises up Hadad of Edom as a “satan” against Solomon (1 Kings 11:14), God raises up individuals, nations, and spiritual entities as “satans” numerous times for various adversarial purposes (1 Samuel 29:4). In this way “satan” is just a generic term for an adversarial role. To this day, much of Jewish tradition believes “satan” to be the evil inclination of humans and having no power except through our evil actions.
The book of Job is the first place the word “satan” is used in an actual personified way, because this is a parable using an adversarial archetype as a main character. However, every time this character is mentioned in Job, it appears with the article “the” in front of it, as in “the satan”, or literally “the adversary” as a generic descriptive term. Although English Bibles capitalize the word “satan” in Job as well as leave the article “the” off, it is clear that “the satan” is not meant as a personal name, because Hebrew never puts “the” in front of a personal name, ever. And in the Hebrew text, “the” appears in front of the word “satan” in Job every time without exception.
In Hebrew tradition, all things, both evil and good, came from the hand of God. “The satan” then represented God’s destructive agency, a kind of “prosecuting attorney” appointed by God, who watched for those who did not obey the law so he could accuse and punish them on God’s behalf. In this way, the adversary was not “evil” per se, he just fulfilled God’s destructive will. “The satan” therefore came to be known as “the accuser”.
In those days, “the satan” was not the wicked, demonic idea of a being that he is now. Those conceptual demonic entities were more along the lines of false gods such as Baal and Moloch and other malevolent pagan deities to whom people participated in bizarre rituals and human sacrifice. During all this time, the serpent of Genesis was not yet equated to “satan”.
In the New Testament the personification of “the satan” as a character is followed, as apocalyptic writings became more popular in the intertestamental period such as the book of Enoch, and this genre of literature predominantly imagined an archetypal enemy and personification of evil. Thus the generic adversarial title “the satan” evolved into the personal name “Satan”, and came to be seen in a more diabolical sense.
So from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we see “the satan” conceptually evolve from an adversarial agency of God through which God exercises his destructive will, to a demonic enemy of God whom God has come to defeat. Jesus solidified the progressive breaking off of this satanic/adversarial element from our concept of God. Jesus refined our understanding of God and exposed the adversarial destructive agency as opposed to God instead of part of God. For God is not the accuser and destroyer of mankind, he is a Father and a giver of life..
Not until later centuries did Satan begin being equated with “Lucifer” which just means “morning star” and comes from a prophecy about the earthly king of Babylon in Isaiah 14. Like the unbiblical doctrine of the rapture which was developed in the 1800’s and was novel enough to become indoctrinated into multitudes within 200 years, the power of tradition turned “morning star”, the earthly king of Babylon, into “Lucifer”, a pre-existent spiritual being who wanted to become like God and fell.
At some point, it just became a “fact” that satan was always the fallen angel who rebelled against God in pre-existent times. People will often point to Revelation 12:7-9 to defend the idea that satan was a pre-existent angel who fell, but that scripture has no ties to the Isaiah 14 prophecy about the king of Babylon, nor does it mention any type of fall of a good angel. Rather it is about the deceiver and accuser being cast down and losing his place of authority.
This is what Jesus alludes to when he says “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven”. He is not talking about some pre-creation rebellion of an archangel that is nowhere in the scriptures. He is talking about the eschatological defeat of the adversary. This is clear from the context.
Preceding this statement of Jesus in Luke 10:18, the disciples return from going forth demonstrating the power and faith of the Son:
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, ‘Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name!'”
Jesus, happy to hear that his disciples are walking in his faith and authority, prophesies the adversary’s defeat and all the powers of darkness:
He replied, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Jesus becomes even more excited and joyful, such that he begins praising the Father for how he is accomplishing his triumph, through the faith of children:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.'”
Jesus continues in the same vein describing how this triumph over darkness is happening through the revelation of the Father and the Son:
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Jesus tops off his rejoicing that satan and the powers of darkness are being cast down through the children of God by saying how blessed his disciples are to see this day in history:
Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, ‘Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.'”
Jesus’ declaration “I saw Satan fall like lightning” is his prophetic declaration of the existential downfall of the powers through his revelation of the Father and the Son, which is also the revelation of humanities sonship.
The Evolution of the Satan
As we can see, the biblical witness concerning the ontology of “the satan” and his “demons” is not exactly consistent. Much of it is most likely myth, which serves a purpose to get at a reality we don’t understand… but is not literal. Just to be clear, the word “myth” is not to say something is not true. It is to say that a certain story or parable is created to relate to us on our conceptual level concerning a higher reality that we cannot yet comprehend.
“Satan” (“adversary”) is not a myth – we all experience a dark adversarial dynamic in this universe. Rather, it is possible that some of the stories regarding this evil cosmic presence are myth, using personification and the power of narrative to denote a reality of the cosmic presence of evil, its accusatory and adversarial element, and its destiny of being defeated.
To me, the issue of the ontology of “the satan” is not really that important. Whatever the cosmic powers of evil are, we believe they exist, and the best way to fight them is to simply follow the way of Jesus.
However, the near absence of satan in the entire Old Testament is an important dynamic to understand concerning progressive revelation. Even though the Old Testament is significantly larger than the New Testament, a character called “the satan” is only mentioned nineteen times, and not as a personal name but with the article “the”, as in “the satan”, indicating a generic adversarial role. Fourteen of these mentioning’s of “the satan” are in the book of Job, because the satan plays a key role in this story. This means, besides the book of Job, the Old Testament only mentions “the satan” five times, which is just a generic adversarial title. When this character does appear, he serves as God’s agent of destruction, as part of the “divine council” (also called “the council of the gods”), revealing a facet of the divine nature while serving as God’s adversarial tool.
To give an example of this, there are two biblical accounts of David’s sin in numbering Israel. One blames God for it, and the other blames the satan, because to Israel, there was no difference. All destructive behavior was attributed to God, and sometimes it would specifically make “the adversary” (the satan) as the angel or servant that was fulfilling God’s destructive decree.
This demonstrates that the Israelites sometimes saw God’s destructive anger as synonymous with the satan. Here I will quote two different passages of the account of Davids numbering of Israel, but notice the two different causes in each account:
The anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, ‘Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.'” (2 Samuel 24:1)
“Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.” (1 Chronicles 21:1)
Same exact event, but two different causes. In one, it is the Lord that caused Davids destructive behavior, and in the other, it is the satan that caused Davids destructive behavior. Is this an error in the text? Or is this an example of the general perspective of Israel that the satan was synonymous with Gods destructive wrath?
This is not just a minor little obscure thing here in these passages, but rather, a blatant example of a more general Old Testament perspective of God. There are many other places where Israel attributes things to “the Lord” because believed the Lord was behind everything. If an angel of destruction or the satan did something, it was ultimately “the Lord” doing it.
Take another look at the book of Job for example. In the book of Job, a character called the satan (the adversary) enters God’s presence and has a casual conversation with God about a man named Job, one of God’s best men. The satan convinces the Creator to team up with him in a kind of cosmic bet to see if Job is truly faithful to God or not.
Where in this story is the prince of darkness, the demonic archenemy of God, who is only full of deception and lies, whom Jesus declares he has come to overthrow? Nowhere. God casually goes along with the satans antagonistic endeavors and that’s that. That’s because in this story, and in this time, the satan is not conceptualized as an enemy of God. He is conceptualized as merely an adversarial mechanism that serves God’s adversarial purposes.
Contrast this with the New Testament, where Satan is an actual name no longer having the article “the” in front of the word, has developed a history in Jewish tradition as a demonic enemy of God, and plays a main role in every book (mentioned 100’s of times in a portion of the Bible that is significantly smaller). Satan is now always shown as a cosmic rebel who is the antithesis of the Father and whom Jesus has come to destroy. Jesus goes about his whole life completely opposed to a character named Satan and all of his works, heaven-bent on driving him out of the world.
This is quite an interesting distinction to think about when reading the Old Testament. The evolution of the concept of “the satan” reflects on the evolution of the concept of the nature of God. Since both good and evil could no longer be attributed to God, since God could not be both the enemy and Savior of mankind, all of the sudden, there is a supernatural entity that personifies evil who is mentioned hundreds of times throughout the New Testament.
Think about that for a second. The Old Testament takes up 2/3 of the Bible and covers thousands of years of Israel’s history, and the New Testament is about 1/3 of the Bible and was all written in the span of several decades.
I would point out however that even though the satan is only mentioned nineteen times in the Old Testament, (fourteen of which are in Job), other characters like “the angel of the Lord”, “the angel of death”, “the angel of destruction”, and “the destroyer” are also employed to describe this adversarial element of God. The scriptures sometimes said, “The Lord did this destructive thing” or “The Lord sent an evil spirit” or “the Lord sent this deception” but then would attribute the actual action to an angel or “the destroyer.”
Later on, Jewish literature began to identify “the angel of death/the destroyer” who fulfilled God’s destructive will as synonymous with the satan as well. The Old Testament simply did not differentiate the Lord and the satan, and all stealing, killing, and destroying was attributed to God.
Jesus reveals his Abba as never coming to steal, kill, or destroy, but only to bring life. “For this reason the Son of God was manifest, to destroy the works the devil.” (1 John 3:8)
Old Testament saints wrongly included Satan in their functional definition of God. Whenever there was temptation, destruction, wrath, and death, all activities which the New Testament would later assign to Satan, the Old Testament would instead attribute these destructions to God Himself. They would not pray against the wiles of the devil, the way the New Testament instructs, but would rather beg God to stay His own wrathful hand. Satan was nowhere in their causative equation. God was the ONLY cause of both good and evil.
The New Testament, by contrast, DIFFERENTIATES the identities of God and Satan totally. What is joined at the conceptual hip in the Old Testament is separated and forever severed in the New. Jesus, it could be argued, IS the DYNAMIC DIFFERENTIATION of God’s image from Satan’s image. He is the refining fire which burns all the unworthy attributes the Old Testament God out and away from the pure and perfect divine nature. Simply stated, the Old Testament view of Satan is lacking New Testament illumination. And, as a result, the Old Testament often blends the identities of God and Satan TOGETHER, which ends up confusing the true source of Old Testament ‘wrath.’ Only as we NOW reinsert Satan back into the destructive Old Testament passages can we rightly understand what Jesus was doing in the Old Testament versus what Satan was doing. Learning to do this instinctively will forever free up our thinking and our understanding of the Old Testament.”
– Richard Murray, Satan: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?
Author Stephen Harris notes that the Old Testament Satan is not the same entity as the New Testament Satan:
[In the Old Testament] the Satan figure acts as Yahweh’s spy and prosecuting attorney whose job is to bring human misconduct to the deity’s attention and, if possible, persuade Yahweh to punish it. Throughout the Old Testament the Satan remains among the divine ‘sons,’ serves as God’s administrative agent, and thus reveals a facet of the divine personality. At the outset, some Bible writers saw all things, good and evil alike, as emanating from a single source– Yahweh. Israel’s strict monotheistic credo decreed that Yahweh alone caused both joys and sorrows, prosperity and punishment (Deut. 28). The canonical Hebrew Bible grants the Satan scant space and little power. Whereas the Old Testament Satan can nothing without Yahweh’s express permission, in the New Testament he behaves as an independent force who competes with the Creator for human souls.
According to Mark’s Gospel, one of Jesus’ major goals is to break up Satan’s kingdom and the hold that he and lesser evil spirits exercise on the people. Hence, Mark stresses Jesus’ works of exorcising devils and dispossessing the victims of demonic control. The New Testament, then– in sharp contrast to the Old– shows Satan and the devil as one, a focus of cosmic evil totally opposed to the Creator God. This ‘evil one’ is the origin of lies, sin, suffering, sickness and death.”
– Understanding the Bible, A Readers Introduction, pages 26-28.
The renowned International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is in full agreement with this in its entry on Satan:
The Old Testament does not contain the fully developed doctrine of Satan found in the New Testament. It does not portray him as at the head of a kingdom, ruling over kindred natures and an apostate from the family of God.
It is a significant fact that the statements concerning Satan become numerous and definite only in the New Testament. The daylight of the Christian revelation was necessary in order to uncover the lurking foe, dimly disclosed but by no means fully known in the earlier revelation.
In the early states of religious thinking it would seem to be difficult, if not impossible, to hold the sovereignty of God without attributing to His agency those evils in the world which are more or less directly connected with judgment and punishment.
The progressive revelation of God’s character and purpose, which more and more imperatively demands that the origin of moral evil, and consequently natural evil, must be traced to the created will in opposition to the Divine, leads to the ultimate declaration that Satan is a morally fallen being to whose conquest the Divine Power in history is pledged.”
Scholar Jeffrey Burton Russell, who has written multiple volumes on the historical development of our understanding of Satan, notes that the reason early Jewish thought saw Satan as God’s servant is as follows:
Since the God of Israel was the only God, the supreme power in the cosmos, and since, unlike the abstract God of the Greeks, He had personality and will, no deed could be done unless He willed it. Consequently, when anyone transgressed morality, God was responsible for the transgression as well as for its punishment.”
– The Prince of Darkness: Radical Evil and the Power of God in History, Cornell University Press, 29-30.
And finally:
‘The satan’ in Job is an officer of the divine council (sort of like a prosecutor). His job is to ‘run to and fro throughout the earth’ to see who is and who is not obeying Yahweh. When he finds someone who isn’t and is therefore under Yahweh’s wrath, he ‘accuses’ that person. This is what we see in Job — and it actually has a distinct New Testament flavor. (We also see it in Zechariah 3). But the point here is that this satan is not evil; he’s doing his job. Over time (specifically the idea of ‘being an adversary in the heavenly council’ was applied intellectually to the enemy of God — the nachash (typically rendered ‘serpent’) in Eden, the one who asserted his own will against Yahweh’s designs. That entity eventually becomes labeled ‘Satan’ and so the adversarial role gets personified and stuck to God’s great enemy (also called the Devil). This is a good example of how an idea in Israelite religion plays out and is applied in different ways during the progress of revelation.”
– Michael Sheiser, The Naked Bible: Biblical Theology Stripped Bare of Denominational Confessions and Theological Systems
“I Come to Give Them Life” (John 10:10) Surrounding pagan beliefs of the time influenced Hebrew thought, because after all, the Semitic people came out of these cultures. As Judaism moves from hanotheism (plural gods) to monotheism (one God), the evil things that happen in the world are explained as this “adversarial element” to God which is part of his wrath, and part of the attempt at explaining bad things happening in the world. This idea evolves into the idea of “the adversary” or “the satan” who is part of the “council of the gods”, who is Gods “prosecuting attorney”, who is Gods tool to both tempt people to transgress the law and then report them to God to be condemned and destroyed for doing so. This divine adversarial character became known as “the accuser.” As the evolution of the satan in Hebrew thought progresses, there emerges a breaking off of this adversarial characterization from the concept of God and the satan begins being conceived as an independent will that is opposed to God.
The satan therefore evolves in Hebrew conception from being a adversarial facet of God, administering Gods death and destruction, to a cosmic rebel who is in direct opposition to God.
This character who personifies opposition to God is now mentioned hundreds of times in a portion of writings that take up less than 1/3 of the Bible and were written over the span of a few decades. Since the good nature of God became much clearer, and no longer could everything be attributed to God, it followed that the source of all the evil, destruction, and death in the world had to be something else.
This should give us pause. What do we find revealed in the life of Jesus? We find a clear and consistent ethic of non-violence, enemy-love, peacemaking, and reconciliation, teaching that he comes to bring life and he is the image of his Abba. Yes, we find warnings of the self-destructive consequences of sin, but these destructive consequences do not come from the hand of his Abba. Jesus declares himself to be the exact representation of the Father, and nowhere is violence and destruction found in the actions of God when he walked into history in his flesh and blood Son.
Consider the following passage:
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. Saul’s attendants said to him, ‘See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the lyre. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes on you, and you will feel better.’” (1 Samuel 16:14-15)
As we know, the story goes on to say that David plays the harp for Saul and, by the Lords anointing, drives away the evil spirit the Lord sicced on Saul. So here we have God tormenting Saul with an evil spirit, and David under Gods anointing interfering with Gods tormenting plans and driving away the God-sent evil spirit. David, under God’s anointing, going against what God himself is doing.
This comes back to what the Hebrews commonly believed about God vs. what is revealed in Jesus. The Hebrews simply saw in part and didn’t have the whole revelation of God’s character. There are other places as well where it says that God sent evil spirits to deceive people (1 Kings 22:22). The God of truth, who wants people to live in truth, sends evil spirits to deceive people? Jesus reveals otherwise. Jesus reveals that God is not in line with everything the Old Testament attributed to God simply because they thought he was the author of everything. Jesus reveals God as opposed to evil, chaos, destruction, deception, retribution, evil spirits, etc. whereas the Old Testament commonly attributed all these things to God.
This is not “throwing out the Old Testament.” This is reading it discerningly, with Jesus as our guide. The Old Testament is full of powerful pointers to Christ. But the revelation of God in Jesus is actually significant, folks. God actually came into history in a man, and in flesh and blood revealed the fullness of what God is like.
Whereas in the Old Testament the Hebrews saw God as inflicting people with evil spirits, in the New Testament we have Jesus casting out evil spirits. Whereas in the Old Testament we have the satan as Gods obedient servant angel of destruction, who carries out Yahwehs disasters, in the New Testament the satan is shown as completely opposed to the will of the Father and whom Jesus has come to drive out and destroy.
Jesus shows the satan to not be an expression of Gods anger who does Gods dirty work, but to be the antithesis of the Father and who Jesus has come to cast down. Jesus says that God is the God of giving life, and not stealing, killing, and destroying. Jesus spends his whole ministry destroying the works of the devil and then it culminates in Jesus declaring, “’Now I will cast the ruler of this world out…’ Signifying what death he should die.” (John 12:31) Everything Jesus did contradicted the work of a wrathful destroyer, and this perfectly reveals God.
In Jesus, we see the full disclosure of the character of God as he completely divorces the idea of God from the idea of the satan so that the two are directly opposed. God is not the accuser, the destroyer, or the enemy of humanity. God is the Savior of humanity
End quote.
Rob has some comments"
Many are concerned with the idea of "Job rendering of the NAME"
In Ancient Hebrew, and I include the prefix "hey"
"Behold the Being!" "Pressed Thorns covers the Nations"
The Ancient Hebrew "hey" letter does not mean "the" it, is a picture of a Personal Being we are to behold as a Power. The thorn letter is a symbol of sin, or things that make use turn. Thus this "Job rendering of the NAME" is actually a proper Name, it's just we do not read Ancient Hebrew, and hence some of our understanding in the OT Hebrew is misunderstood.
Some of the Author's thoughts I find hard to wrestle, like the idea that the OT is a shadow of thoughts and the NT is better? Hmm? Maybe GOD chose to hide revelation of things for a reason. Poetry is all about hiding things in simple pictures, and often we look at the simple pictures with the wrong understanding.
But I do find the article answers alot of Dave's queries.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jul 20, 2021 16:33:04 GMT -5
I am posting as serious and as honestly as I am possibly ableRobert – the original question to you has always been – give me a pre-Rome reference to your cherub chatah and the doctrine of Fallen AngelsYou have just answered my question There are certainly many websites, with Jews, that agree with your views"Correct – the Gnostic view is the Jewish view – it is the theology of the time of Jesus Christ When Jesus said that He did not come to change a thing – what did he mean?www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/who-is-satan/The Hebrew word śāṭān, meaning “accuser” or “adversary,” occurs several times throughout the Hebrew Bible and refers to enemies both human and celestial alike. When referring to the celestial adversary, the word is typically accompanied by the definite article. He is ha-satan—the Accuser—and it is a job description rather than a proper name. From the Accuser’s appearances in the Books of Job and Zechariah, it seems that the job entails calling attention to the unworthiness of mankind. The Accuser is essentially the prosecuting attorney of the divine court of YHWH, and part of his job includes collecting evidence to prove his cases. Agree – this is basic Jewish teaching – and it was the theology at the time of Jesus ChristOK, show me the texts where GOD requires a prosecutor? There aren't any. All your evidence, (Job and Zechariah) is human interpretation of the verses. But I do see your point, just do not agree. Point – as a Roman Catholic you are forbidden to see / read / or even know about all the evidence Everyone in the audience of Jesus Christ understood who Beelzebub was When Lilith or the shedim or the Sirium are mentioned in the ahl – no definitions are needed Enoch is the second most quoted Hebrew text of the agl – 64 times – Isaiah has 68Several times the ahl and the agl just takes a shortcurt - saying(google) The following are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible:1- The Book of Jasher is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18 and also referenced in 2 Timothy 3:8.[1] From the context in the Book of Samuel, it is implied that it was a collection of poetry. Several books have claimed to be this lost text, some of which are discounted as pseudepigrapha. Certain members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints secured the copyright to a particular English translation of one of these and republished it in 1887 in Salt Lake City.[2] 2- The Book of the Wars of the Lord[3] is mentioned in Numbers 21:14. It is speculatively associated with one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness.[citation needed] The Book of the Wars of the Lord is also cited in the Book of Jasher[disambiguation needed] (trans. Moses Samuel c. 1840, ed. J. H. Parry 1887) Chapter 90:48 as being a collaborative record written by Moses, Joshua and the children of Israel. 3- The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel and Chronicles of the Kings of Judah are mentioned in the Books of Kings (1 Kings 14:19,29). They are said to tell of events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of Israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively. The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel is again mentioned in 1 Kings 16:20 regarding King Zimri, and many other times throughout 1 and 2 Kings. 4- The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet and Visions of Iddo the Seer (also called Story of the Prophet Iddo or The Annals of the Prophet Iddo) is mentioned in the 2nd Book of Chronicles. (2 Chronicles 9:29, 2 Chronicles 12:15, 2 Chronicles 13:22). This book has been completely lost to history, save for its title. 5- The Manner of the Kingdom. - Referenced at 1 Samuel 10:25. 6- The Acts of Solomon. - Referenced at 1 Kings 11:41. (Testement od Solomon / the Key of Solomon – with Beelzebub and shedim?) 7- The Annals of King David. - Referenced at 1 Chronicles 27:24. 8- The Book of Samuel the Seer. Also called Samuel the Seer or The Acts of Samuel the Seer, which could be the same as 1 & 2 Samuel. - Referenced at 1 Chronicles 29:29. 9- The Book of Nathan the Prophet. Also called Nathan the Prophet or The Acts of Nathan the Prophet or History of Nathan the Prophet. - Referenced at 1 Chronicles 29:29, and also 2 Chronicles 9:29. 10- The Book of Gad the Seer. - Referenced at 1 Chronicles 29:29. 11- The Prophecy of Ahijah,[9] might be a reference to 1 Kings 14:2–18. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 9:29. 12- The Book of the Kings of Judah and Israel. - Referenced in 2 Chronicles 16:11, 2 Chronicles 27:7 and 2 Chronicles 32:32. Might be the same as 1 & 2 Kings. 13- The Book of Jehu, could be a reference to 1 Kings 16:1–7. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 20:34. 14- The Story of the Book of Kings. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 24:27. 15 - The Acts of Uziah. Also called The Book by the prophet Isaiah. Perhaps the same as the Book of Isaiah. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 26:22. 16- The Vision of Isaiah. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 32:32. 17- The Acts of the Kings of Israel. Also called The Acts and Prayers of Manasseh.[14] May be identical to The Book of the Kings of Israel, above. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 33:18. 18- The Sayings of the Seers. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 33:19. 19- The Laments for Josiah. Also called Lamentations. This event is recorded in the existing Book of Lamentations. - Referenced at 2 Chronicles 35:25. 20- The Chronicles of King Ahasuerus. - Referenced at Esther 2:23, Esther 6:1, Esther 10:2, and Nehemiah 12:23. See also: Deuterocanonical books 1- Book (or Wisdom) of Ahikar referenced by Tobit 1:22, Tobit 2:10, Tobit 11:18, Tobit 14:10[17] Aesop's fable of The Two Pots referenced at Sirach 13:2–3[17] 2- The Egyptian Satire of the Trades, or another work in that tradition[18] referenced at Sirach 38:24–39:11 3- "The archives" referenced by 2 Maccabees 2:1[17] 4- Memoirs of Nehemiah referenced by 2 Maccabees 2:13,[17] could be the same as the Book of Nehemiah. 5- "letters of the kings" referenced by 2 Maccabees 2:13[17] 6- "five books by Jason of Cyrene" referenced by 2 Maccabees 2:23: the author of 2 Maccabees here tells us that the work is abridged from the history by Jason. 7- "the king's letter" referenced by 2 Maccabees 11:22[17] New Testament Non-canonical books quoted or alluded to:[20] NUMBER #1 - Book of Enoch (Jude 1:4, 1:6, 1:13, 1:14–15,[22] 2 Peter 2:4; 3:13,[23][24] and John 7:38 [25]). 2- The Book of Jannes and Jambres, according to Origen (2 Timothy 3:8 "... as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses") 3- Epistle to the Laodiceans (Colossians 4:16 "read the epistle from Laodicea") 4- Life of Adam and Eve (2 Corinthians 11:14 "Satan as an angel of light", 12:2 "Third Heaven") (AKA – the 1st and 2nd Books of Adam and Eve) 5- A lost section of the Assumption of Moses (2 Timothy 3:8, Jude 9 "Michael.. body of Moses") 6- Martyrdom of Isaiah (Hebrews 11:37 "they were sawn in two") 7- Paul's letter to the Corinthians before 1 Corinthians (1 Corinthians 5:9 "I wrote to you in my letter...") (YES! – the mysterious 3rd Letter to Corinth which talks of Paul’s journey through the 10 heavens – even much like Enoch) 8- Paul’s letter to the Ephesians before Ephesians (Ephesians 3:3 “As I wrote afore in few words...”) 9- An unknown messianic prophecy possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Matthew 2:23 that states "...he will be called a Nazorian." ("ὅτι Ναζωραῖος κληθήσεται"). "Nazorian" is typically rendered as "Nazarene" ("from Nazareth"), as in Acts 24:5, where Christians are referred to as "the sect of the Nazorians/Nazarenes" ("τῶν Ναζωραίων αἱρέσεως"). This is speculated to be a vague allusion to a quote about Samson in Judges 13:5 that uses a similar-sounding word: "the child shall be a Nazirite" (ναζιρ) An unknown version of Genesis (possibly a targum, midrash or other commentary), quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45, as a reference to Christ's being "the Last Adam who became a life-giving spirit" (οὕτως καὶ γέγραπται· Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν· ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν.). It has been speculated that Paul is simply paraphrasing Genesis 2:7, but there is no clear indication that this is not a complete quote. 10- An unknown text quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:9, suggested by Origen to be a lost apocryphal book:[27] "But as it is written, 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him." This may also be an allusion to the similar Isaiah 64:4, "For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.'".[28] 11- An unknown messianic prophecy, possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Luke 24:46, speculated to be a vague allusion to Hosea 6:2:[29] "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." 12- An unknown messianic prophecy, possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Mark 9:12, speculated to be a vague allusion to Isaiah 53: "and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought." AND EVEN - Mennonite scholar David Ewart has mentioned that Nestle's Greek New Testament lists some 132 New Testament passages that appear to be verbal allusions to paracanonical books. In the Jewish temple at the time of Jesus Christ all of this literature was RESPECTEDAND – these are only the books that were quoted into scriptureThe Jews have even more that is not mentioned – The Testament of Solomon / The Book of Creation The Library at Cumron had over 2000 individual documents The Library at Nag Hammadi contains the Gnostic Gospels (as they are called) + commentaries from sethites – and even some Greek Poetry (Plato) The only way I can oppose your idea, is to prove to you that Satan is no prosecutor.Here is part of scripture you simple missHeb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, You claim everyone just goes to the grave to await the First Resurrection – then the Judgment Paul suggest that we are judged after death And you deny any evidence Romes forbids you to look at but say you understand Jewish theology better than they doAsclepius 21-29 - The Nag Hammadi LibraryNow the body dies when it is not able to support the man. And this is death: the dissolution of the body and the destruction of the sensation of the body. And it is not necessary to be afraid of this, nor because of this, but because of what is not known, and is disbelieved (is one afraid)." "But what is not known, or is disbelieved?" "Listen, Asclepius! There is a great demon. The great God has appointed him to be overseer or judge over the souls of men. And God has placed him in the middle of the air, between earth and heaven. Now when the soul comes forth from (the) body, it is necessary that it meet this daimon. Immediately, he (the daimon) will surround this one (masc.), and he will examine him in regard to the character that he has developed in his life. And if he finds that he piously performed all of his actions for which he came into the world, this (daimon) will allow him ... (1 line missing) ... turn him [...]. But if he sees [...] in this one [...] he brought his life into evil deeds, he grasps him, as he flees upward, and throws him down, so that he is suspended between heaven and earth, and is punished with a great punishment. After our mortal death were are judged 1- we are getting in - Divine Pardon - Salvation in Christ 2- or we receive Proportional Punishment – (no guarantee of ever getting out)Jer 21:14 I will punish you according to the fruit of your deeds.” Rom 2:6 He will pay back each person according to his deeds. The Apocryphon of John - The Nag Hammadi Library(same author as – the Gospel of John, 1,2,& 3 John + Revelation) And I said, "Lord, where will the souls of these go when they have come out of their flesh?" And he smiled and said to me, "The soul in which the power will become stronger than the counterfeit spirit, is strong and it flees from evil and, through the intervention of the incorruptible one, it is saved, and it is taken up to the rest of the aeons."
And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."I love this verse – for those who forgot – they will be Proportionally Punished until they “FORGET what they FORGOT”After our mortal death were are judged 1- we are getting in - Divine Pardon - Salvation in Christ - 2- or we receive Proportional Punishment – and a promise of potential purification, then we get in And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."After our mortal death were are judged 1- we are getting in - Divine Pardon - Salvation in Christ - 2- or we receive Proportional Punishment – until we are purified, then we get in 3- or we get a do-over Reincarnation Does everyone have many past lives – NODoes anyone have a past life – YESBecause we all are presented with an equal opportunity to repent God is fair and patientHeaven for the Jews was always open to everyone – Jew or non-Jew – if you deserve it Even a non-Jew pagan in a 3rd world country – knows there is a creator Rahab was a prostitute The King of Tyre was Israel’s best friend – helped King Solomon built his temple – send craftsmen and Timbers Then betrayed Israel – to stay out of harm - To protect self Ezk 28 Roman Christendom – EDITS what you are allowed to read and believeYou claim that all these – ‘non-canon – meaning non-Roman approved’ mentioned within scripture itself are all just lies and error – none of it is trustworthySo – I ask you – why are they mentioned in the ahl or agl as credible sources of good information? THIS IS YOUR FIRST ROMAN BIAS – ignore the what the Jews went through – are still going through to present a Messiah for you – and you absolutely deny everything about the theology Jesus Christ said He did not come to change – nope not even one iota - Christian So let's study the judgement scenes in the OT, no mention of a prosecutor.Zec 3 – the prosecutor is right their standing next to Joshua accusing him of sin/unworthiness But God says – stand down satan the prosecutor – Joshua receives a Divine Pardon This is the story of salvation – as presented later in the agl It amazes me that your church never taught this amazing evidence of God’s Grace and SalvationPsa 109:6 Set a wicked man over him, let an accuser stand at his right hand. A Rabbi will say – the Right hand is the hand of instruction – the hand of God – so why is the Right hand present – to illuminate the wicked as wicked – as in - accusing him of sin/unworthiness It was not the left hand – the hand of mystery So let's study the Day of Atonement scene, You have a problem Dave, not a single mention of a prosecutor. Why would GOD require one ? God sees our sins before we sin. A creature cannot do that.Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds. In your view – who keeps the Books – and who opens the Book to read out the names? In Lev 16 – who illuminates the sin? – Just because it is not listed does not mean no one knew!Dave says"not once did satan oppose God – instead he obeyed God and opposed man Precept upon precept, line upon line 72 verse saying something opposite to your one verse How is this possible – answer – you do not understand your one verse. Rob replies" You say not once does Satan, the angel oppose GOD? Every verse that uses the term "satan/verb/noun" is about mankind, never about GOD?Correct – as we studied the 23 + 49 verses in detail – satan was always obedient or in service to God – helping to facilitate God’s Will on earth The only evidence you could offer to support your Catholic Fallen Angel claim was Rev 12:7 and Ezk 28 Rev 12:7 is about the Beast / the Devil / the serpent / and Chaldean satanas / and false prophets And Ezk 28 is about man – King Tyre – any man – mankind - AdamWhen you define Satan, the angel, as a prosecutor obeying GOD, who tempts man to sin, is this a functional role of a prosecutor?This is the error of not paying attention to scripture Hebrew satan is the heavenly prosecutor in service to the Lord Chaldean satanas – is of the Beast of Rev 12--------- Robert – the original question to you has always been – give me a pre-Rome reference to your cherub chatah and the doctrine of Fallen AngelsYou have just answered my question There are certainly many websites, with Jews, that agree with your views"Correct – the Gnostic view is the Jewish view – it is the theology of the time of Jesus Christ When Jesus said that He did not come to change a thing – what did he mean?You reference - blog.dianoigo.com/2015/02/satan-prosecutor.htmlSatan is portrayed here as an overzealous prosecutor who engages in what would be called ‘entrapment’ in a modern legal context. He induces people to sin so that he might prosecute them (and, having won his case, he also plays the role of executioner). "R" Wow. entrapment is even seen as OK?“About the author I am a Canadian residing in Cape Town, South Africa. I was received into the Roman Catholic Church at the 2017 Easter Vigil, having previously been a Baptist and, before that, a Christadelphian.”Thank you for making my pointNo one believed in Catholic satan until Rome invented himBelial, a popular name among the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which means “worthless” or “corrupt.” “Children of Belial” (Hebrew: bene-belial) was a typical phrase used to describe evil people in the Hebrew Bible (e.g., Deuteronomy 13:13; 1 Samuel 1:16; 2 Chronicles 13:7, etc.). If someone were searching for a name that personified evil in the Hebrew Bible, it would be Belial, not Satan. Interesting enough, the name only occurs once in the New Testament (2 Corinthians 6:15), as Paul’s stark contrast to Christ. —In Rabbinical and Apocryphal Literature: In the Ḥasidic circles from which the apocalyptic literature emanated and where all angelologic and demonologic lore was faithfully preserved, Belial held a very prominent position, being identified altogether with Satan. In the Book of Jubilees (i. 20), Belial is, like Satan, the accuser and father of all idolatrous nations: "Let not the spirit of Belial ["Beliar" corrupted into "Belhor"] rule over them to accuse them before thee." The uncircumcised heathen are "the sons of Belial" (ib. xv. 32). In the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Belial is the archfiend from whom emanate the seven spirits of seduction that enter man at his birth (Reuben ii.; Levi iii.; Zebulun ix.; Dan. i.; Naphtali ii.; Benjamin vi., vii.), the source of impurity and lying (Reuben iv., vi.; Simeon v.; Issachar vi.-vii.: Dan. v.; Asher i., iii.), "the spirit of darkness" (Levi xix.; Joseph vii., xx.). He will, like Azazel in Enoch, be opposed and bound by theMessiah (Levi xviii.), "and cast into the fire forever" (Judah xxv.); "and the souls captured by him will then be wrested from his power." In the Ascensio Isaiæ, Belial is identified with Samael (Malkira [Dan. v.]; possibly Malak ra = the Evil Angel [i. 9]), and called "the angel of lawlessness"—"the ruler of this world, whose name is Matanbuchus" (a corrupt form of "Angro-mainyush" or Ahriman?) (ii. 4). In Sibyllines, iv. 2 (which part is of Christian origin) Belial descends from heaven as Antichrist and appears as Nero, the slayer of his mother. In the Sibyllines, iii. 63 (compare ii. 166) Belial is the seducer who, as the pseudo Messiah, will appear among the Samaritans, leading many into error by his miraculous powers, but who "will be burned up by heavenly fire carried along by the sea to the land [an earthquake?] to destroy his followers," "at the time when a woman [Cleopatra] will rule over the world."Belial held a very prominent position, being identified altogether with Satan.(Hebrew satan – or- Chaldean satanas?)like Azazel in Enoch, be opposed and bound by theMessiah (Levi xviii.), "and cast into the fire forever" (Judah xxv.); (Azazel in Enoch – the father of demons – the leader of the bane elohiym of Gen 6) "—"the ruler of this world, (Since Gen 1:2 / Rev 12:7)Belial descends from heaven as Antichrist(another reference to the agl Book of Revelations)will appear among the Samaritans,(Who are the Samarians – they are the Northern 10 Caucasian tribes that become lost and reemerge as Caucasian Western Roman Christendom – who accepts Catholic fallen angels and god satan)But if you use the NT, where the Satan is termed an accuser of the brethren, Satan is one who accuses us of sin. Why? To stop GOD saving people. This is a different role as a prosecutor. More like the catalyst who temps man to keep on sinning.YEP – the mission of the archon – the Beast /the devil / the Chaldean satanas / all the 33 other gods of the ahl Ask yourself why would a creature want humans to sin?From with your Fallen Angel bias – I understand your question – but do not think it is the right questionGen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. H342 – אֵיבָה - From H340; hostility: - enmity, hatred. To the question – do the archon hate manAnswer Yes – they were the original Canaanites – they had the land – then God added Adam and gave him dominion over the land Adam was the original Israelite to cross over a barrier and enter the land of the archon (earth) Islam says – this is exactly what they are jealous of man To a Jew – they are a snare – Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’” Snare – to entrap in an alternative religion with an ‘other god’ a non-God god as the focusJews are told – do not eat pig – or even touch the dead skin of a pig Ezk 8 – the Abomination = the worship of Tammuz with pigs inside the Temple Today – everyone knows – fall or spring – either way Jesus was not born on Dec 25th Today – everyone knows – Passover and the Spring Equinox have nothing in common Yet today – Christians celebrate Easter (Istahar) at the Spring Equinox – with colored eggs and pig The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryMoreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit. Ask yourself why would a creature want humans to sin?From with your Fallen Angel bias – I understand your question – but do not think it is the right questionSIN? – Is it a sin – to love football – Answer – no – Jesus said go forth and enjoy God’s creation – appreciate the beauty What if football consume you to the point you have no time to commune with the HS You say – the football fan misses OK – misses what I say misses the chance to know the Lord – misses a chance to remember his commission Jer 1:5 – misses a chance to repent – all of them misses – but what is the sin Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, … The (First) Apocalypse of JamesThe Lord said, "James, I praise your understanding and your fear. If you continue to be distressed, do not be concerned for anything else except your redemption. For behold, I shall complete this destiny upon this earth as I have said from the heavens. And I shall reveal to you your redemption." James said, "Rabbi, how, after these things, will you appear to us again? After they seize you, and you complete this destiny, you will go up to Him-who-is." The Lord said, "James, after these things I shall reveal to you everything, not for your sake alone but for the sake of the unbelief of men, so that faith may exist in them. For a multitude will attain to faith and they will increase in [...]. And after this I shall appear for a reproof to the archons. – all of them misses – but what is the sin Not obeying the commandment -Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, … Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. SIN = disobeying God / Transgressing the LawAsk yourself why would a creature want humans to sin?From with your Fallen Angel bias – I understand your question – but do not think it is the right questionWhat of – two men placing dogs in pit to fight Do the men want the dogs to sin? What of places where they place to Roosters in a pit to fight Do the men want the Roosters to sin? The part of the ahl you totally missThe Holy Land has been the mixing ground of all the ancient peoples and all their other-gods. The Assyrians with their Strom Gods fought Babylon with its god Moloech The Hittites fought the Babylonians – and they all took turns fighting the Chaldeans and Egypt Egyptian God Ra – places his humans in a battel against the Hittites with their gods Enky and Anu at the battel of Kadesh Did the gods Ra, Enky, and Anu want their humans to sin YES – because they are missing the commandments of the one true God Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, … What about – war – fighting – killing – lying – hating your enemy – protecting your own people from its enemies – saying damn it – or shit – or losing your temper at a school board meeting I say show me the commandment Some people actually believe in vegetarian sharks because sin was not yet introduced into the WORL to man Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. But scripture says Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law. Scripture also says God’s commandment to all biological creation = Gen 1:22 Then God blessed them by saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the water in the seas. Let the flying creatures multiply on the land.” How can many – if not any – of God’s creatures can grow and die to be reborn in the cycle of life without causing harm A virus – needs to destroy / kill its host to multiply I say – show me the commandment for animals – other than Be fruitful and multiplyAsk yourself why would a creature want humans to sin?From with your Fallen Angel bias – I understand your question – but do not think it is the right questionTo make my answer plain and clearThe mission of the archon is NOT to make you sin – or make you turn evil – or even to hate God The mission of the archon – is the trap you / snare you / keep you focused in this WORLD Many many altruistic people – have done good deeds all their lives Shindlers List – doctors dedicated to saving lives – philanthropic people that gave away millions – or even gave it all away – all good deeds AND ALL OF IT A DISCTRACTION IN THIS WORLD – INSTEAD OFExo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, … 613 Laws of the Torah remain in place – but simplified into Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, … AND Joh 13:34 “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, so also you must love one another. Joh 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” What does this mean to a Jew – a Messianic Jew – or Gnostic Christian Christ came from heaven – walked as a man (souljourned) and WITNESSED to all the nations the Glory of God – Jer 1:5 – then he died for his fellow man – and returned to God How am I to love my fellow man like Jesus Christ did – I have to WITNESS to God’s Glory – to help my fellow man WAKE UP and recognize what is in their sight – the Reality of the ahl + agl and the promise of eternal life Why should I be willing to die for you – what if you just murdered my family – why should I die for you? Answer – if I kill you – or allow you to die without trying to save you – or watch you commit suicide I am – ending / stopping your ability to Repent If I love you as Jesus Christ and - ending / stopping your ability to Repent Am I - Loving you like Jesus? ------------------ The Greek word diabolos (from which “devil” is derived), meaning “slanderer,” comes from a verb that means “to hurl” (i.e., accusations). Diabolos was typically used as the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew śāṭān (in the Septuagint version of Job, for example), though it was not uncommon to simply transliterate the word into the Greek satanas (1 Kings 11:14). Full answer hereponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/515/satan-vrs-satanas?page=1&scrollTo=5917Hebrew satan = accuser – Greek devil = Greek satanas = who is a FALSE ACCUSER / a SLANDERER Correct - Agree – not the same meaning at all because they are from different origins Origin #1 – Book of Job, 1Chr 21 + 2Sam 24 + 1 Kings 22 + Psa 109:6 + Zec 3 In Zec 3 – satan the prosecutor is “accusing the brethren” Question – Joshua was a man right – did Joshua have a sin to be accused of – absolutely But God gave Joshua a Divine Pardon – the story of salvation Origin #2 – King Solomon tells us – the shedim control things like rain – storms – lightening The very attributes of any ancient ‘other-god’ A Chaldean devil - all ancient ‘other-gods’ had devils Lilith was known to all the Canaanite tribes as the baby snatcher Strom gods (Assyria) controlled you know what War gods – knowledge / science gods / fire gods / weather gods 33 different times / or types ‘Chaldean Devils’ posed as ‘other-gods’ -------------------- Dave storyGnostic literature says – if you love your flesh – you are not getting in Over and over Gnostic text speak of – denying flesh – throwing off flesh Be not of the flesh – because flesh is not getting in Jesus says – Seek ye first the Kingdom of heaven – and no great love has a man than to lay his life down for another St Francis – 5th Crusade – meets with the nephew of Saladin the commander of a large army. The Muslim version aleteia.org/2017/06/28/st-francis-and-the-sultan-an-encounter-of-peace-between-christians-and-muslims/Francis proceeded to preach the Gospel to the Sultan in such a way that al-Kamil was not offended and did not end Francis’ life immediately for blasphemy. The Sultan could see the love that flowed from Francis and was astonished by his boldness. They spoke together of the spiritual life and reflected on each other’s traditions. The two friars stayed in the Muslim camp for several days and departed on peaceful terms. Before they left al-Kamil wanted to give Francis lavish gifts, but Francis refused according to his vow of poverty. This too left al-Kamil speechless as he was not aware of a man who refused earthly honors. What St Francis report back to Rome www.missionstclare.com/english/people/oct4.htmlFrancis proposed that a fire be built, and that he and a muslim volunteer would walk side by side into the fire to show whose faith was stronger. The Sultan said he was not sure that a muslim volunteer could be found. Francis then offered to walk into the fire alone. The Sultan who was deeply impressed but remained unconverted. Francis proposed an armistice between the two warring sides, and drew up terms for one; the Sultan agreed, but, to Francis's deep disappointment, the Christian leaders would not.
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