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Post by Dave on Nov 7, 2019 9:01:41 GMT -5
First Jews do not consider the NT as torah. So half of Scripture is missing. Now you are saying the Gospel was not in the Tanak? – I see it there You make the NT vrs the OT – I only see scripture www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=el&commit=searchElohim.The most common of the originally appellative names of God is Elohim (V09p161016.jpg), plural in form though commonly construed with a singular verb or adjective. This is, most probably, to be explained as the plural of majesty or excellence, expressing high dignity or greatness: comp. the similar use of plurals of "ba'al" (master) and "adon" (lord). In Ethiopic, Amlak ("lords") is the common name for God. The singular, Eloah (V09p161017.jpg), is comparatively rare, occurring only in poetry and late prose (in Job, 41 times). The same divine name is found in Arabic (ilah) and in Aramaic (elah). The singular is used in six places for heathen deities (II Chron. xxxii. 15; Dan. xi. 37, 38; etc.); and the plural also, a few times, either for gods or images (Ex. ix. 1, xii. 12, xx. 3; etc.) or for one god (Ex. xxxii. 1; Gen. xxxi. 30, 32; etc.). In the great majority of cases both are used as names of the one God of Israel.In the Apocrypha and New Testament. (NT information in the Jewish Encyolpedia - Opps) Since the Shekinah is light, those passages of the Apocrypha and New Testament which mention radiance, and in which the Greek text reads δόξα, refer to the Shekinah, there being no other Greek equivalent for the word. Thus, according to Luke ii. 9, "the glory of the Lord [δόζα Ḳυρίου] shone round about them" (comp. II Peter i. 17; Eph. i. 6; II Cor. iv. 6); and it is supposed that in John i. 14 and Rev. xxi. 3 the words σκηνοῦν and σκηνή were expressly selected as implying the Shekinah. The idea that God dwells in man and that man is His temple (e.g., Col. ii. 9; II Cor. vi. 16; John xiv. 23) is merely a more realistic conception of the resting of the Shekinah on man.
Actually – the Jews are very Gnostic – a female aspect = Shekinah Elohiym = a collective term for all heavenly beings – God, gods, angels, and archon All the heavenly family Elohiym = pluralality El – singular –s very different to me No – means same thing I have said over and over
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 15:10:47 GMT -5
When I spoke to fluent Jews in Jeff's forum, they shut down the NT as torah rapidly.
Maybe a Messianic Jews would consider the OT and NT torah, but not a Non-messianic Jew.
Nehemiah Gordon is a Non-messianic Jew. His assessment of Elohiym is good. Yes he comes up with those things mentioned by you "and the plural also, a few times, either for gods or images (Ex. ix. 1, xii. 12, xx. 3; etc.) or for one god (Ex. xxxii. 1; Gen. xxxi. 30, 32; etc.). In the great majority of cases both are used as names of the one God of Israel."
But "words" and therefore "word meanings" do not work in the great majority of cases, and you ignore the minor cases you don't like. That's not how "words" work. This is why I love Jeff Benner. He follows language rules. Nobody else does. They have invented a kooky word for us, because we are marginalized. Funny that, Martin Luther translated into German the OT and NT torah correctly, each word was faithfully the same word all the time. KJV is NOT faithful in this idea, but the best modern Bible that is faithful , the worst is the NIV.
You speak to Jews in go to their churches, ask them for me...your answer
Elohiym = plurality
El – singular
is OK I suppose, but not in layman English.... you have to translate into simple English, so simply people understand, but not simplistic as Einsten says.
Jeff Benner uses the word "Elohiym powers".
Robert use the word "Family power" for singular context, and "Family powers" for plural context. You will notice for Gen 1:1
In the beginning Family-Power engineered the heavens and the earth.
The terms Family-Power has the image of members of divinity creating, but one member overall is creating with one power, the masculine he singular is there, with the plurality of family members, both at the same time.
You can use this word for "family power of judges", also for "family power of Dagon" and for the "Family power of Moses and Aaron appearing before Pharoah".
This definition also fits Eph 3:15,16 and all the thousands of contexts in the tanak.
I don't have to juggle quantity and quality stuff as Gordon does. Its simple.
I also asked you once for the meaning of "kathistemi" Romans 5:19 remember? You didn't give me a simple answer, a single English word. This is a very critical answer because if is one of the answers for where sin originated from, something Jews do not have in their theology so I discovered.
Even my own SDA Greek and Hebrew scholar disagreed with me on "kathistemi". Seems like scholars cannot give you simple answers. What does "kathistemi" mean?
Well if you look up all the Greek 19 sentences, it means to "rule". And if you look up the Hebrew word where the Greek came from...see no scholar agrees the Greek is a translation of an Hebrew NT torah, only Jeff Benner and me?? Scripture does too, funny that?
Gen 42:6 "shalliyt" And what does this Hebrew word mean?
Jeff Benner says 'master'. I disagree. Jeff has 'baal' as master. 'shallity' must be 'ruler', one who rules. What's the difference between master and ruler? not a lot.
See the pictograph meaning for help: (something Jeff does only occasionally, but I do all the time)
"Press authority active covers" A ruler is a pressing authority actively over his realm covering the power under his power. Master is usually for little power under his control, ruler is more people under his control. Hence I like "ruler".
Get how we translate words? Every sentence has to fit all throughout the tanak.
The Jews and yourself see RA coming naturally from GOD, the Ha-satanas is just a good angel playing negative in a heavenly court.
I don't see RA in this way. It doesn't come from GOD. Romans 5:19 explains where the original sin comes from...
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were "ruled" sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be "ruled" righteous.
So if you want to find the ruler of RA, who makes us sinners, not from natural "yester ha ra" inside of us, but as Jesus says to Jews, you are of the Father of RA, He was a murderer from the beginning...
Jews agree the word "chata" means "missing".... missing what though? If you have already both yester hara and yester hartov in our bodies or mind, your not missing anything. So explain what Jews mean by missing?
I like the Jew science guy Einstein answer on this. RA does not exist. It is engineered by GOD as a concept when people walk away from GOD and thus miss His power in their life. Did you catch the word "miss" in the sentence. "chata" means missing power from relationship.
Cold is a missing of heat. Dark is a missing of light. Ra is a missing of God's power.
So back to this word "ruler", who rules over you. You have two rulers, Yetser God or Yetser Devil. Jews might not like this idea, but if you bring the NT torah in, the passages speak of this so much...
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 7, 2019 21:08:10 GMT -5
All I did was copy and paste from: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=el&commit=searchMaybe you should contact them and inform them that they do not knaow their own language, culture, or faith So back to this word "ruler", who rules over you. You have two rulers, Yetser God or Yetser Devil. Jews might not like this idea, but if you bring the NT torah in, the passages speak of this so much... I am a mono-theist One Omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscience Creator that is in absolute control Two creator gods = Catholic = Pagan
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Post by Dillon on Nov 8, 2019 7:56:18 GMT -5
Robert said, "Jeff Benner uses the word "Elohiym powers".
Robert use the word "Family power" for singular context, and "Family powers" for plural context. You will notice for Gen 1:1"
The trinity is three powers and the powers created the world.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The demons of hell are powers of darkness. They are all Elohim.
Two gods? I am spirit and my spirit god is God. I am animal and my anamil god is mammon. One is forever. One is transient. God is eternal. Hell is transient. To me, tov is eternal, Ra is transient.
As a Christian Soldier, it is wrong to ask God why. Just do or die!
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Post by Dillon on Nov 8, 2019 8:16:26 GMT -5
Your conversation is way over me, but the idea of evil being a byproduct of creation is interesting. This could be any view around me. I love drinking coffee in the morning watching the sunrise over the mountains. The only way to describe it here is PRAISE GOD. Nature in its pure harmony. Then I take my rifle and kill a doe and watch as she runs herself to death, in pain, in agony. Left alone her fawn is soon torn to pieces by a pack of coyotes, death, pain, agony. If the coyotes didn’t feed to maintain their high metabolisms they would freeze to death on a cold winter's night, death, pain, agony. Necessary evil, pain, and agony is one part of the harmony of nature. You can not sustain life without taking life. You can not create planets without exploding stars. You can not make an omlett without cracking a few eggs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 17:10:22 GMT -5
Dillion, Because we live in a world of RA, and Scripture says GOD creates RA, we think demons and angels that do RA like humans who do RA is a part of GOD's natural design. Is this true?
Jesus is a Jew speaking to Jews about a totally different interpretation of Scripture. He says you Jews are of the Father of RA, He was a murderer from the beginning. These words are significant. Jesus the Jew, claimed to be of a different Father, a Father of Tov.
Einstein a Jew, also explains this RA easily, but you are not listening to him, whereas I do. Ra technically doesn't exist. Ra is the perception GOD creates when people are missing God's power in their lives. Just as cold is missing heat. And darkness is a missing of light. Thus RA is a missing of GOD's power. So while everything is manifest by GOD, who is the Father of RA? Well Jesus said the Devil is the Father of RA, a murderer from the beginning.
You also say trinity is three heavenly powers. That might be, but nowhere in Scripture does these heavenly powers function on their own. The Son works His Father's works. The Holy Spirit channels the Father's works and the Sons works through this agency.
Dave doesn't like a Devil creating RA, makes two creators....who says a Devil creates? Scripture says GOD creates RA. Einstein says RA doesn't exist. Its a perception GOD creates when men are missing God's power in their lives. Who is the Father of RA? The Devil is, Jesus says. He was a murderer from the beginning.
Where else is this concept spoken of clearly?
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.....2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Here the serpent in Eden is explained by Paul as the angel as Satan.
Personally my GOD is almighty enough to create a universe without RA in it. Where does RA come from? A father of RA, the devil, Jesus says. How is RA created so humans and unfallen beings can see it? God creates it, though He disdains the RA, because He is challenged in court by an attorney bent on bringing the Most High down.
Why do Jews see Ha-satan as good angel doing attorney things in a court? Since when were courts about good all the time? a court is a process where good destroys bad, and when you face a judge, he judges you for bad...nothing good about courts...they serve because something bad is happening... That tells you immediately something wrong in heaven...who's on trial then? The Most High is... who's the prosecutor? Ha-satan is.
Who's in control? Most High is... In the USA, President Trump is under impeachment, so this tells you a president of the USA is not the most High. When you take on the supreme court judge as corrupt, who rules the court? The corrupt judge does..as there is no higher court... its a problem for us living in RA and Tov.
What happens though if an angel (lets say with free will) decides to overrule the Most High... is this technically possible? no, a creature cannot over rule a creator... but out of love, and free will, let's assume the Creator allows the Creature to feel empowered... give the creature a kingdom and a feeling He is in control, but he never is... creatures always serve Creators, but somehow this court process has to take place, because love is being challenged....
If you say love and hate have always existed together for eternity, why have a heavenly court and why have a testing at all? Jews say God loves TOV but disdains RA. Is this an answer? Does this view line up in the NT? no If you read only OT, you might see things that way... assuming you get rid of Ezekiel passages as figurative.
Dillion "Nature in its pure harmony.
Female mossie eat blood, but male mossie eat flower nectar...why is this?
Lions can be vegetarians... All dogs in PNG are vegetarians...meat is so expensive and rare in New Guinea, dogs are thin, and eat coconuts and other tid bits. Sure dogs can take advantage of easier meals, like humans who eat meat...lots of loaded toxins... Most animals in nature are plant eaters....why is that? Maybe the world was originally only with TOV and no RA? Where did RA come from? When Adam first sinned? Who fathered RA? Jesus says the Devil did. The Devil tricked Adam to sin, and this brought RA into our world....who engineers this RA that came in? God does... who brought it in? Sin did... what some call the original sin...
Some Jews ask the ugly question, why does bad things happen to good people? That's a hard question... The Most High is on trial... by whom? Devil wants the Most High power... Since Jews think GOD creates tov and ra naturally, I suppose than Devil thought, if I can have a kingdom of Tov and Ra for eternity, people will think this too, so Devil deceive many, even Jews.... will this world of tov and Ra exist for eternity? no
If Scripture says wolf lie down with lamb, than RA comes to an end. Devil comes to an end. Court is over. Most High is freed from attack. No more challenge. A new world without RA exists for us for ever. No more guns, no more killing animals. No more dying. No friction. it's a place we don't know yet. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 8, 2019 21:28:26 GMT -5
You were out of line at AHR – it is a forum for discussing Ancient Hebrew Language – you only discuss theology – wrong forum – one of the reason it was closed (it got off topic)
Making assumptions again – Angels do not have Free Will – you make an imaginary hypothisis
God didn’t make predators until when? After Eve ate of the fruit? Where in your Catholic OT does it say this? Predators didn’t eat until Eve ate of the fruit? Would all the predators have died out as a result of Eve obeying?
You have two creator gods – if God didn’t make predators then your satan must have I am using Robert logic - you sure give your creator satan god a lot of creating power
If angels are beautiful beings of light – how did they change into demons? Did they change forms? Or are your Christians demons – beautify beings?
Dillon is correct – elohiym is a plural of all the pleroma – all the heavenly beings good and bad
You are Mr Hebrew expert – more expert than globally recognized scholars – tell me what Isa 34:14 means to you - why don't you answer - you never answer these questions
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Post by Dave on Nov 8, 2019 21:55:49 GMT -5
Maybe a Messianic Jews would consider the OT and NT torah, but not a Non-messianic Jew. You are just wrong - Jews do not consider Jesus the Messiah But in each and every Jewish video I have posted here - they all mention something like - 'the christians say' as a prt of their commentary - even the Jewish Encylopedia gave a Chjristian counter view Catholics are the only group on the planted that go around telling everyone else they are wrong. In the history of your post - all the Jews are wrong -the Rabbis do not understand their own faith - thousands and thousands of historical documentrs are fake - King Solomon knew nothing - no Jew ever wrote anything other than just Hebrew scripture (Catholic version) Oh ya - and you have two gods - two creations - and creation does not have to obey God's will
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 14:47:39 GMT -5
Well here's your chance to prove to me all Jewish document interpretation is right.
I emailed once a Jewish about The Most High as a Father... she didn't like the nuances such thoughts involved.. I asked here if the Most High was a king... she didn't answer that well, only that the Most High is sovereign above all things. And you only get one reply per question. Than communication stops. I also asked Gordon, and he said your welcome to your poly theistic views...on Elohiym. Jews are very similar to SDA, both not friendly enough to defend their theology... I emailed many SDA Pastors, and you get 1 email only.
So if take Gordons assessment on the Hebrew word Elohiym
"It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural."
Words in a language do not work like this? Change radical meanings depending upon context? Different nuances, yes, but not different meanings.
"(Gen 1:26). Who is this "us" and "our"? Does God have multiple personalities? Is there more than one God?"
Notice Gordon mixes contrasts : "Does God have multiple personalities? " Yes "Is there more than one God?" No
He doesn't consider this idea?
"Since this is not what Scripture says we must conclude once again that Elohim is a singular individual."
If Gordon read the NT (OK they don't like Jesus as Messiah) they would read a Jew writing a completely different torah meaning which other Jews like Gordon follow:
in Ephesians3:15,16 that "elohiym" is "family".
"Since this is not what Scripture says we must conclude once again that Elohim is a singular family."
Use this word and every context fits, both divine and pagan... why doesn't the OT have verses that link elohiym to family? It doesn't. Because earthly families continue, the heavenly family does not. Only in the NT times does the heavenly family continue, in a simile way as earthly families do.
"What is the "council of YHWH"? We find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures that YHWH is said to be surrounded by a large host of angels. For example, in one vision Daniel sees YHWH sitting like a king surrounded by millions of attendants:
"(9) And the Ancient One sat down, His garment like white snow, and the hair of His head like clean wool, His throne flames of fire and its wheels burning fire. (10) A river of fire flowed forth; a million attended Him and a hundred million stood before Him. The judgment began and the books were opened." (Dan 7:9-10)"
Strange Gordon uses this scroll but misses an important verse here:
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, The Aramaic says "bar-man" the "Grain of Man" does not refer to angels, but fits the image of "family" a divine Son, coming to a divine Father to receive a kingdom, Gordon does not see this?
"The terms "angel" and "son of God" are also used synonymously." This is not so... Where does "ben elohiym" refer to "cherub" ? It never does.
"When YHWH says in Gen 3:26, "Let us make man in our image after our likeness" He is also addressing the heavenly council of angels." Not so
"(5) I am YHWH and there is no other; besides Me there are no gods;..." It doesn't say that... (Gordon does not quote the tanak, so can't find his exact words)
Mixing terms like YHWH and gods is strange. There is no Hebrew term for "god", the closest Hebrew term is "el", meaning "Strong Authority", not sure if "el" can ever be written as plural? Is it not always singular?
Dave: "Oh ya - and you have two gods - two creations....
What do you mean by this statement?
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2019 17:33:31 GMT -5
and you have two gods - two creations.... What do you mean by this statement? So back to this word "ruler", who rules over you. You have two rulers, Yetser God or Yetser Devil. Jews might not like this idea, but if you bring the NT torah in, the passages speak of this so much... Lets stop discussing your satan god Lets say - you win the argument - and I now believe in your creator satan god Pick the appropiate thread and: Tell me how this applies to UFOs - when did they first appear - their purpose - their origin Next - discuss ancient astronaut gods Then explain to me who the gods of the 99% are Explain to me who Allah is Your turn - answer some questions - now that I believe as you do Or - explain to me why Luke and Mathew disagree as the the date of the Birth of Jesus 4BC fefore herod died - or 6AD 2 kings of Israel later Here is your chance - I want to believe in Christ as presented in the NT Witness your truth to me
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 4:59:53 GMT -5
OK all my texts use GREEK words... they are the same...and I use NT torah only
2Co 11:3 the serpent "ophis" beguiled Eve, 2Co 11:14 Satan "satanas" himself is transformed into an angel "aggelos" of light. Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: the dragon "drakon" fought and his angels "aggelos", Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon "drakon" , that old serpent "ophis", which is the Devil "diabolos", and Satan "satanas", and bound him a thousand years, Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil "diabolos", and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
These NT torah texts in Greek make a Being who deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden as
ophis=satanas=drakon=diabolos who is a father of ra (murder, lusts, no truth) and has been this father of RA from the beginning. This Being has many "aggelos" (a Greek term meaning both "messenger or angel" depending upon context.)
As for the answers to your questions, some are outside of Bible answers.
The Being(ophis=satanas=drakon=diabolos) deceives, has many markets of belief for many cultures, so as to deceive, even the very elect. His angels would help in his deception, in various ways, we can only postulate about.
It's hard to cross reference Hebrew back to Greek:
Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil "poneros" thoughts,
Ge 8:21the imagination "yester" of man's heart is evil "ra".
Forgive me for a rush study, but I think "poneros" is a translation for "ra".?
Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked "ra" from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Lu 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil "Ra" spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils "daimonion",
Mr 3:22 ¶ And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince "archon" of the devils "daimonion" casteth he out devils. 23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan "satanas" cast out Satan "satanas"?
It seems "archon daimonion" is a Prince of Devils, Satan. Thus other "daimonion" must be the other fallen angels with Him?
The study of words is not as clear cut as I would like, but this is a study so far.
You can present your view, but make sure it is also based on the NT Greek. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2019 8:20:06 GMT -5
As for the answers to your questions, some are outside of Bible answers. Correction - you mean to say - outside of your Catholic Canon OT(which you think is the same as the Hebrew scriptures) and your Cathicolic Canon NT Making your response sound Just like Pope Urban VIII decree - If Galileo saw moons around jupiter - then they must be in his telescope because they are not in the Bible This is ABSOLUTELY why I an not a Roman Christian You are unable to witness to your neighbor - because Rome doesnt train you how - because they do not want you to understand the world as it is - so you do not know how to fight an enemy you do not even know - yet you exult their leader to godhood Why can't you apply your religeon to the real world? Why can't you defend a Christian attack? Both Dan Black and har raked me over the coles about Ceaser's Messiah Yet, when i ask you a question about Luke 2 - you respond with a long essay about Luke 16 Discuss the Rephiem - or why Goliath still had 4 brothers Tell me who Allah is - Allah and his worshipers want you dead! Just because you are a Christian They want to destroy Israel - do you know why? Tell me why - the answer is so simple, yet no Christian I have ever asked knows why - why not - because Rome teaches you to be ignorant - be unaware - be stuck in the pages of a book instead of living your faith as a sheep amoung the wolves. Catholic theology is an edit - so that its followers don't know and are easy to manipulate from the pulpet Your unwillingness to even address my question is such validation of my views of the Roman editEvery Christian Pastor I engage - will only answer preprogramed and prepackaged sound bites of things they have been taught. Any other questions they just make the ROBERT EXCUSE Why cannot Christians discusse their walk amoung the wolves - when they do not even know who the wolves are or what their adgenda is There are ancient cave paintings in your home country showing ancient astronauts wearing space suits There are stone carving of ancient asteonauts wearing space suits in South America The Egyptians had space gods from the star Sirius Abram was from Ur - they had the Annanuki gods from the planet Neberu The Hindus have Space gods that fly around in Vemenas And he science of Evolution is emptying your churches Catholic theology is an edit - it does not define all of reality - it only makes you weak before your enemy
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Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2019 8:36:58 GMT -5
ophis=satanas=drakon=diabolos who is a father of ra A creator god - I do not belive this - I only have one Father - One Creator Question Christian - has Rev 12 already happened - or are you using future events to validate past events to justify your present I can use the same verses to validate that it is the archon who are the δαιμονίζομαι The ἄρχων are the clones of the Chief ἄρχων who is a consequence of creation - a byproduct Just as entropy is a byproduct of creation - a consequence RA has no free will it only corrupts To rule over this corruption - an άγγελος stepped forward / charged / commissioned to reign over the RA You can miss read Job all you want - but God gave satan the task and then gave him limits Gnostic - yester TOV is my soul from heaven - it is always there as my conscious / sub-consciuos yester Ra is my Mind-Body - always with the carnal desire Thus - the Great Contest Just becaues we become Born Again - does not mean we stop being Mind-Body
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Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2019 9:37:05 GMT -5
Thank you - finnally maybe we can build Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon "drakon" , that old serpent "ophis", which is the Devil "diabolos", and Satan "satanas", and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:10 - the devil and the beast are not the same entity - TWO ENTITIES - the Cheif Archon and 'the overseer' In your Christian world - which one of these is Allah? or is Allah something else? Actually there is a Trinity of evil in Rev The Beast, the dragon, and the false prophet Islam is very clear who the false phrophet is - what do christians say?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 12:56:55 GMT -5
I am not sure Dave, Uriah Smith wrote making commentaries on Revelation and this Kabbalah the SDA church follows...though I don't buy it much...I see things happening again and again, Scripture prophecy tends to repeat...
Uriah Smith writes that some were able to foretell the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the very day from reading Revelation, and it came to past as they read. Can't remember the exact verse, but the Ottoman Empire is in Revelation for sure, so is America, the lamb like power that speaks as a dragon in time.
A general summary for the last days:
Re 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
A woman is seen as a simile of the true church...down through time...
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The woman begins way back in heaven, when there was war...so this woman is also a simile of the Holy Spirit, a nurture Being for the true Church.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
This true child is Jesus...who is a King and has a throne...
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
1230 years (each day for a year during prophecy) is the dark ages...
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
This war began first in heaven, and continues on earth. Jews do not consider this, a war is a very strong term... in heaven... against GOD ? Yes
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Cast out? yes, his angels with Him? yes... you see the story of war began in heaven and continues on earth.... not testing...but a war.... a war is not a nice thing...
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And as soldiers for Christ, we die for Christ, like the Coptic people beheaded by Muslims in the name of Allah... whatever that power stands for...
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
A war... people die in wars...tortured...death....a war that began in heaven...
12 ¶ Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Satan, the devil, has a short time left in this war... (not a testing...not a good guy)
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Satan killed Christ on the Cross, not the Jews... just as Satan beheads the Coptic people by the name of Allah, a name meaning Father of RA and TOV....which our heavenly Father is not. The true Father is all only TOV.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The Church nurtured by the Holy Spirit, sank into the dark ages...
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Satan swallowed up the truth by making many people swim in confusion.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
The earth, is America, a place where people following Jesus could flee from Satan and His war...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Notice the war continues, against those who follow the ten commandments of the Father and have the testimony of Jesus.
Jews see Job as testing...really? what is a court about? good prosecuting the bad? Revelation paints the picture vividly... its a war...not testing...sure we become tested...but Satan is a war general with an army of soldiers... Jesus also is a war general with soldiers, and his followers are pawns in this war...
Do Jews have a concept of war in heaven? that began long before earth had humans on it?
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