bowenhandsus
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Just trying to post something
Posts: 8
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Rapture
Aug 13, 2016 11:08:53 GMT -5
Post by bowenhandsus on Aug 13, 2016 11:08:53 GMT -5
Let us discuss the "Rapture" and the easy believe-ism. Or could there be yet another theory?
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Rapture
Aug 13, 2016 17:42:33 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Aug 13, 2016 17:42:33 GMT -5
Great topics
Rapture - I firmly believe in the Rapture as Christ presented. Although, I am not an end-timer. In fact, I believe that "End Times Ministries" actually hurt the faith. 242 times ending dates have been predicted and passed without anything happening. Each and every time a date is set and nothing happens it only serves to discredit the faith.
The legacy of 2000 yrs of Roman "Feel Good" Christianity is the question - Is there a God? If there is why does He allow all the misery? Perhaps He is powerless to stop it. OR - He isn't there at all.
End Times Ministries also serve this same agenda of polluting and diluting the faith. No man will know the time - only the father. Evidently these end time date setters didn't read that verse or have decided to ignore it as modern Roman Christianity ignore many passages that they have redacted from scripture to make the religion more palatable to the masses of the day.
I teach the Rapture to my children. In fact we all just finished the "Left Behind" series. I also teach them to be prepared 24/7, because no one knows when.
BUT - I am not sure if I buy into the whole 1948 Israel Fig Tree scenario - In Mark 11:12-25 Jesus curses the fig tree Israel because there is no fruit upon it and says it will never give fruit. The day of Israel are over - they ended with Jesus Christ Today is the day of the Christian
Everyone speaks of the third temple - as if it was a building like Solomon's or Herod's The true temple to the Lord is the one King David and John the Baptist used - the same place Jesus went to pray The rise of the third temple is a Christian revival like no one has ever seen before
When - 1948 + 40 yrs = 1988 nothing happened. 1948 + 70 yrs = 2018 and man are people nervous today BUT - I cannot forget the word of the Torah - Gen 6 the days of man shall be 120 yrs 1948 + 120 = 2168 -- Rapture may be a long time away - or today. I am betting on a long time away - but preparing my family for today
Easy Believe-ism Valentinius of Rome wrote around 125 AD - that there were three types of Christians 1 those who believe - just take it on faith - afraid to question the status quo (Valentinius believed these Christians would be saved, but lack reward in heaven. The 2nd group of Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and doing the Lord work here on earth. (Valentinius believed these Christians would be saved with reward) The 3rd group are the people that just joined the club. Like you or I would join the Elks. They have club membership but are spiritually empty inside and will be lost in the end.
ME - I am definitely not an Easy Believer. I have more questions than ever. Paul says 1 Thes 5:21 TEST it all, keep the good. Am I spirit filled? and spirit lead? The most honest thing I can say is - sometimes.
I have spent my life railing against people who judge any Christian walk, because of someones behavior or conduct. To judge a heart's love for the Lord by the individuals dress or behavior is forbidden actually. Yet, most Roman Christendom does just that.
The problem is - the assumption that to follow the Lord you have to be a socially agreeable individual. I disagree. Primarily because the false assumption that is made is that there is only one type of follower. Yet, if Judas had not done what he did, would the NT read the same? In the story of Moses God plays both sides of the conflict giving conflicting messages to each side. God sent Moses unto Pharaoh. But, it was also God that hardened Pharaoh's heart each time.
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Rapture
Aug 13, 2016 17:58:17 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Aug 13, 2016 17:58:17 GMT -5
1 John 3:2
This is my most favorite second coming verse.
We will see Him as He truly is. We will be like him.
When I read this, visions of Jesus transfigured upon the mount pop into my head. We will see Him as He truly is - His true form - a multidimensional being. So each time a 'human' claims to be the Christ, I know it is a fraud.
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Rapture
Aug 20, 2016 9:56:17 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Aug 20, 2016 9:56:17 GMT -5
How can you not believe that we are in the end times?
Christians falling away from the faith Islam taking over the world
and everything happening in the Middle East!
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Rapture
Aug 26, 2016 20:09:01 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Aug 26, 2016 20:09:01 GMT -5
Interesting video concluding that the Rapture cannot come until the Rapture occurs Listen to his word study of the Greek word apostasia Makes his point around 16min into the video
Strong's Concordance - 646. apostasia
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: apostasia Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah) Short Definition: defection, apostasy Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
departure (implying desertion) - apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Interesting how word studies and Bible studies in general change over time as the culture changes and yet the scripture remains correct. This video makes the conclusion that the apostasia is the rapture. As in – the faithful leaving earth.
What if this ancient Greek phrase is translated as:
Departing (earth) – deserting (earth) – a leaving from a previous place (earth)
I am an Edgar Casey fan – especially his comments about the second coming and Jesus Christ. Edgar Casey also prophesied / saw humans living on another planet. So perhaps some of humanity is supposed to survive the end by reestablishing God’s people on another planet.
A reset to humanity – just like the Flood of Noah
Up until this era such a comment would have been just outright crazy – BUT the timing and aspirations of Elon Musk and SpaceX seem to be remarkably coincidental
Mars or bust
I have a good friend, and she is a member of this forum, who believes that we are what is left of a once solar system wide human civilization (ancient ruins on the Moon and ancient ruins on Mars) – that was destroyed.
She believes that we are the Martians – or what is left of them – the evidence of a solar system wide human civilization is obvious (according to some)
Interesting idea – from Mars to Earth post apocalypse And now From Earth to Mars coinciding with our own apocalypse
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Rapture
Aug 27, 2016 14:30:36 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Aug 27, 2016 14:30:36 GMT -5
Neat video
What about the question of pre - mid - or post trib as for timing of the rapture This video makes it seem that the trib will not come until the rapture happens first - so pre-trib
If it is positively pre-trib - then what is happening in the Middle East? Is this just warming up to something much worse, or has the rapture already occurred and you missed boat?
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Rapture
Aug 27, 2016 14:51:24 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Aug 27, 2016 14:51:24 GMT -5
Hey D Thanks for playing
Pre mid or post - there is a question for ya I am criticized for my attitude - but I think it a mistake to try and make scripture fit OUR expectations. Because scripture is a living word. To me, there is meaning for every scripture on multiple levels.
Both Noah and Lot are used as an example of how scripture relates one story - but years later new meanings are uncovered - both Noah and Lot are scriptural examples of Christ saving His Bride later. You know I have played with the Noah story for years and new meaning surface from the same ole verses all the time. Layers and layers of meaning and implications.
Is it pre / mid - or post trib
My opinion - after the fact I bet it will be discovered that for some it was pre - for some it was mid and for some it is post.
Everybody is right and everybody is wrong - talk about a full service scripture
The CONFUSION we PONDER over the details keep many away from the bigger picture - Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
Semantics and vocabulary only serve to expand the misunderstanding. Confusion is by design, else the scripture would be extremely abridged.
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Rapture
Aug 28, 2016 9:45:15 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Aug 28, 2016 9:45:15 GMT -5
If I didn't know you I would consider you to be wishy-washy - afraid to commit but I understand what your saying - the world is such a big place how could something happen everywhere at the same exact time. Perhaps the rapture will wash over the planet like a morning sunrise sweeping it way around the globe.
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Rapture
Aug 28, 2016 10:50:35 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Aug 28, 2016 10:50:35 GMT -5
There is an interesting thought
However – as a Christian that believes in Creation, the de-evolution of man, axe heads that float on water, virgins giving birth, and the dead rising from their grave
Then – to place any limits at all on someone omnipotent – just seems like human arrogance
As for being wishy-washy – let me say this again There are only about 3 concepts that I hold on faith as FACT
1- There is only 1 CREATOR, who is a multidimensional being 1st dimension is a singularity that contain all energy, and all knowledge, that can never be located. The point that contains all points. 2nd dimensional SPIRIT, and expressed into the 3rd dimension as Jesus Christ
2 - Therefore Jesus Christ is God incarnate
3 - Jesus Christ came to Earth to demonstrate once and for all – there is a viable and active after-life and faith/belief in Jesus Christ offer a short cut to the most desired portion of that after-life
EVERYTHING ELSE is open to debate. Whenever anyone (myself included) says they absolutely KNOW a thing. It is only a matter of time before they are proven wrong. The Earth is not flat Man can travel faster than the speed of sound and regardless of whatever anyone says – the evidence is overwhelming that Giants (Nephilim) walked the Earth and still do to this day
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Rapture
Sept 3, 2016 10:02:04 GMT -5
Post by Richard on Sept 3, 2016 10:02:04 GMT -5
This is all I'll say:
It could be today or 40 years from now. Regardless of when, the only issue relevant is whether you are right with the Lord and ready to go at any moment.
I was sharing with my pastor some difficulty I have been having with a neighbor. I confessed to him my level of frustration which borders on the verge of anger. The only thing he said was to remind me how lucky I was the rapture didn't happen while I was adsorbed in my own anger.
Always walk in the spirit, hand in hand, with the goal always in mind.
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Rapture
Sept 3, 2016 14:07:15 GMT -5
Post by Bowen Handsus on Sept 3, 2016 14:07:15 GMT -5
The Rapture: Its Timing, True Purpose, and Surprising Minimum Age Cut-off
Despite all the discussion and debate about the rapture among Christians, several key aspects of the rapture are still not widely understood. Besides the important timing question, there is also the question of the rapture’s purpose (it’s not what you think) and the fact that not only the wicked will be "left behind" but some of the righteous will not make it either! Learn these finer points of the rapture and deepen your understanding of God’s plan.
By Tim McHyde
The Rapture Question
This article is a first for me, addressing the topic of the rapture on its own. That may sound strange coming from a prophecy teacher. Yet, I do not even dedicate a chapter to proving the rapture timing in my comprehensive book on the end time prophecy.
I take a different approach. I lay out the full picture of the end time puzzle. With this as a foundation, the timing of the rapture can be seen clearly in context, despite how confused it normally is out of context. Judging from the lack of questions from readers asking for proof on the rapture timing, this approach works well. No one's asked me to add a chapter on the rapture, either.
It is easy to understand why. We all adopt this same effective approach when working on a jigsaw puzzle. We strive to establish a border framework so we can make sense of the hard pieces. We realize that until we do each piece of a puzzle in the pile can seemingly go almost anywhere. Yet, after you assemble enough of the puzzle to see border or outer frame of the picture, it becomes much clearer what area of the puzzle each piece must go. Later, each piece clearly fits in exactly only one place...unless jammed and maybe taped in the wrong place.
Similarly, the rapture confusion we observe today comes as a result of people trying to determine where one piece of the end time puzzle fits without having enough of puzzle laid out correctly. The many gaps in their end time picture make many wrong positions seem plausible. The rapture can fit fine almost anywhere in a timeline with lots of open space (pretrib, mid-trib, two raptures, etc.).
In this article, I will fill in those gaps and in the process share some rare insights on the rapture that you probably never heard before. You'll have enough missing end time context to see what the timing of the rapture is beyond any doubt.
As for the "tape" in this analogy, these are the myriad pretrib rapture arguments applied to force and tape the rapture puzzle piece where it does not belong. However, we will not deconstruct it or tear it up. Addressing these prop-up arguments is the wrong approach as it will never show you exactly where the rapture piece actually belongs. The right approach is to complete the area of the puzzle where the rapture fits so you can see a rapture-shaped hole for the rapture piece to be moved to—leaving the mess of pretrib arguments "tape" behind to fall to the ground.
Rapture Foundational Verses
Some people become so discouraged with the confusion and ugly discord over the rapture timing that they literally end up in denial about the whole thing. They deny there even is a rapture found in the Bible. You probably have met people using these arguments. They will argue for example that, "the word 'rapture' does not exist in the Bible." However, this could be said about many doctrines that they nevertheless do accept.
They miss that the Bible is not written in easy tutorial format full of organized and clearly stated terms and explanations. Rather, it is very hard. Its doctrines are spread out throughout many scattered verses often using very different terms for the same thing. This requires careful harmonization. As a result of this difficulty, sometimes inaccurate labels get assigned to a doctrine.
A great example of this is how you will not find the word "millennium" in the Bible. However, the Bible clearly talks about a 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints after the rapture. Millennium is just another way of saying 1000 years in a single word. Likewise, the word rapture is just a single word representing an actual phrase from the Bible.
What phrase is that? In 1 Thessalonians we find it:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)— Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
The Greek word meaning "caught up" or "taken by force" is harpazo. The word rapture comes from the Latin word rapio which itself appears in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible for that verse. So the progression is:
(Greek) => (Latin) => (English)
harpazo => rapio => rapture
This verse then gives us our definition for what the rapture is: it is a sky gathering of the freshly glorified saints.
If you look at more verses, you will find that the rapture is actually the fourth event following three other steps.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (HCSB)—15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord:, We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel' voice, and with the trumpet of God [1], and the dead in Christ will rise first [2]. 17 Then we who are still alive [3-almost] will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [4] and so we will always be with the Lord .
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (HCSB)—Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound [1], and the dead will be raised incorruptible [2], and we will be changed [3].
The four steps marked in the verses with brackets above are as follows:
1.The last trumpet blast by an angel (1Cor 15:52=1Th 4:16).
2. (Note: The King James says "last trump." Donald Trump's sensational presidential run caused many to quoted this verse as referring to him as the "last Trump". It's a humorous idea, but of course requires torturing the text. The context refers to the trump as an unmistakeable sound-making trumpet coinciding with the first resurrection and rapture.) The resurrection of the dead in Christ to incorruptible glorified bodies (1Cor 15:52=1Th 4:16).
3.The quickening of the "alive" in Christ to incorruptible glorified bodies (1Cor 15:52=1Th 4:16).
4. Rapture: all glorified saints rise with the help of angels to a gathering in the clouds where Christ meets them (1Th 4:17).
What's missing from these verses? A highly desirable 5th event mention would be the Great Tribulation!
If these clear rapture passage only mentioned the rapture's relationship to the Great Tribulation then the rapture timing controversy would be nonexistent. Unfortunately they do not.
Nevertheless, they do firmly establish there is a catching up gathering to the clouds, or rapture. Other rapture passages we will show later do mention the Great Tribulation, however they do not as clearly describe the rapture as these.
"Behold I Show You a Mystery..."
This, then, is where it gets hard. I say this because it is helpful to set the right expectations. Given its centrality to the end time discussion, you would think that the rapture timing question would be pretty clear and easily established.
Not so. By comparison, it is not nearly as obvious as the Bible's teaching that the Millennium follows the Great Tribulation.
On the contrary, the Bible states that this subject is a "mystery":
1 Corinthians 15:51 (HCSB)—Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
Revelation 10:7 (ESV)—but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
Mysteries are advanced doctrines. They require great care or there is going to be misunderstanding. You cannot figure them out without some serious foundational wisdom from the entire Bible.
Part of what makes this doctrine such a mystery is that it has little coverage in the Old Testament, and vague coverage at that. Like with the resurrection of the dead (Dan 12:2), there is only one or two clear reference to it in the OT. Here are the two rapture verses I could find in the OT.
Isaiah 26:20 (HCSB)—Go, my people, enter your rooms and close your doors behind you. Hide for a little while until the wrath has passed. 21 For look, the LORD is coming from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth will reveal the blood shed on it and will no longer conceal her slain.
Psalms 50:3-7 (HCSB)—3 Our God is coming; He will not be silent! Devouring fire precedes Him, and a storm rages around Him. 4 On high, He summons heaven and earth in order to judge His people. 5 "Gather My faithful ones to Me, those who made a covenant with Me by sacrifice." 6 The heavens proclaim His righteousness, for God is the Judge.
It is important to note for later that both of them relate the gathering to heaven with the coming wrath of God on the earth. Revelation tells us the wrath of God is the seven bowls that follow the 7th trumpet (Rev 15:1) while the Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12).
Timing: When is the Last Trumpet?
Just as I said at the start, the key to establishing the timing of the rapture in relation to the Great Tribulation lies in understanding the end time framework in which it fits.
We need to know what is this "last trumpet" that the rapture happens at? Given that Revelation has seven trumpets that precede the seven bowls, the natural conclusion is that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet. But is it?
Let's look again at a verse we quoted earlier on the rapture. Notice that it says the rapture happens at the last trumpet also when the resurrection of the dead happens:
1 Corinthians 15:52 (HCSB)—in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
In other words, for there to be a pretrib rapture there must be a pretrib resurrection. Now notice what Revelation tells us about when the resurrection of the righteous is:
Revelation 11:15-18 (HCSB)—15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever! 18 The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.
This passage clearly says that the resurrection of the just and rewarding of the saints is at the 7th and last trumpet, the same as Paul told the Corinthians about the resurrection and transformation of the just. The 7th trumpet is after the Great Tribulation and leads into the wrath of God. This means the rapture, too, must be after the Great Tribulation at the 7th trumpet.
This happens to be just what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse:
Matthew 24:29-31 (HCSB)—29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
I mentioned this passage earlier as less clearly identifying the one and only rapture of the saints. The trouble with this one is the word elect. Pretribbers claim the elect are the Jews. If you don't want to fall for that one, go investigate yourself the New Testament usage of that term. You will find that it refers to any saint, Jew or Gentile (1Pe 1:1-2; Col 3:12; Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7; Rom 8:33; 2Jn 1:1,13).
A Brief Glimpse of the Newly Raptured Saints In Heaven
Now witness how this rapture position fits like a puzzle with other pieces of the puzzle given in Revelation. We can see what happens to us right after we are raptured, and right before the wrath of God falls. Revelation 15 shows it:
Revelation 15:1-3 (HCSB)—1 Then I saw another great and awe-inspiring sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven last plagues, for with them, God' wrath will be completed. 2 I also saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had won the victory over the beast, his image, and the number of his name, were standing on the sea of glass with harps from God., 3 They sang the song of God' servant Moses and the song of the Lamb... 8...and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Here we find the raptured saints exactly where you would hope: in the throne room of heaven where earlier are shown our brothers the 24 elders (Rev 15:2=Rev 4:4-6). There is no doubt we have both the "Old Testament saints" and "New Testament saints" represented here. This is implied by their singing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb, respectively. (God has the same opportunity and salvation plan for all saints of all time regardless of whether they lived a life in service to God before Jesus came or after. Don't let anyone tell you different.)
The Overlooked Reason for the Rapture
While these raptured saints watch from the throne room, the seven angels with the seven bowls of God's wrath walk out of the temple past them to deliver their payload on the inhabitants of the earth.
However, do not get the wrong idea. The rapture is not about escaping God's wrath. Nor anything else including the Great Tribulation (as pretribbers think). This escape idea is one of the errors that serves as "tape" for the pretrib positioning of the rapture puzzle piece.
Let's look again at a previous passage again to note what it says is the real purpose behind the rapture:
Revelation 11:15, 18 (HCSB)—15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom; of our Lord and of His Messiah, and He will reign forever and ever!...18 The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.
Notice that it is all about giving the reward to the saints. What reward is that? Eternal life. And the timing is perfect. Because we find immediately after this comes the Millennium when Jesus will reign with his saints for 1000 years. You cannot rule even 100 years without eternal life, so that is why even those of us who are alive must be changed to "incorruptible" bodies right before taking our part in the Millennial reign.
Revelation 20:4-6 (HCSB) — 4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people, who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God' word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. 5 ...This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Did you notice another clincher that rules out a pretribulation resurrection and with it a pretribulation rapture? It says that this resurrection of the just to rule is the "first resurrection." This leaves no wiggle room for another resurrection before this post-tribulation resurrection.
Left Behind But Still Protected
And now for the last of the finer points of the rapture. This point is only possible to see after you fully internalize the previous points on timing and reason behind the rapture.
For if the rapture is not about saving anybody but is about rewarding saints who are ready to rule, then what about the saints who are not ready?
See, the pretrib rapture teaching puts Christians in fear of being "left behind" and suffering alone on an earth engulfed with the Great Tribulation. Yet when you think about it, protecting us on the earth from Satan is not a problem at all for God. And, in fact, God must leave behind plenty of otherwise righteous saints as we will see.
The first thing to consider is that there is no requirement for anyone to leave the earth to survive God's wrath (or Satan's wrath in the Great Tribulation for that matter). It is a straw man argument that pretribbers have invented.
We can know this from another precedent of God's wrath (which is far worse than anything Satan can do). The precedent of the Ten Plagues of the Exodus (Ex 7:14-11:10). They were called God's wrath (on Egypt) as well. Yet God was able to spare Israel from most of them in the midst of the Egyptians who suffered them all. God made a "difference" for the Israelites he wanted to save (Ex 11:7). He did not have to rapture Israel then and he will not need to rapture anyone he wants to protect on earth from the last seven plagues, either.
Left Behind—Not Just For the Wicked?
The second thing to consider has to do with who those people left on the earth are. We would think after the righteous are raptured that the only people left must be wicked.
However, you have to understand what is in store for the raptured before you conclude that. All of the raptured become the Bride of Christ and attend the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9). They are given thrones and will rule on the earth over the survivors (Rev 19:5; Zech 14:16). No one raptured is going to clean latrines or be a bell hop, as wonderful as even those jobs may be in the Kingdom. All will be kings and priests (Rev 1:6;5:10).
While they indeed are given new glorified bodies, nothing is said about a change of personalities, minds or understanding. We have to expect that to remain intact and not suddenly transformed, filled, and expanded and corrected. God uses organic growth of character and knowledge consistently. Our minds are already spirit-based so changing the venue for them from physical to spiritual bodies does not imply a concurrent mind change, except perhaps in abilities (perfect memories?). We can expect to continue learning in our new bodies for eternity which is a good thing to prevent getting bored with eternal life. Therefore after we are raptured into a new glorified body, we can expect to be only as mature and ready as we were before in our physical body.
Given that our knowledge does not change at the rapture, note what it says about those who are raptured, besides the fact that they of course are righteous and faithful to get there:
Revelation 19:7 (KJV)—Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Revelation 14:4 (HCSB) ...These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They were redeemed, from the human race as the firstfruits for God and the Lamb.
Rapture Maturity Requirement?
Firstfruits are those harvested first because they came to maturity first. Immature grain is not harvested. It's not ready. Those who are young and immature are also not "ready" yet and do not fit the picture of firstfruits. There will be lots of babies and children of the saints who are simply not ready to be in the harvest. Then there are the teens who may have more maturity, but they have not finished developing mentally or are not yet competent to rule. Scientists tell us that the human brain does not finish developing until the early 20s. (Yes, King Josiah ruled at age 8, but not because he qualified, rather because Amon his father was assassinated.)
In America and many countries you are considered a minor under adult authority until the age of 18. In the Old Testament a similar precedent is set for an age of accountability. We deduce this from the fact that you were not allowed to serve in the army until 20 (Nu 1:3). Likewise those under 20 were not held accountable for doubting God and believing the false report of the ten spies of the land of Canaan. They survived the punishment of 40 years of wandering the desert while their accountable parents or elders of 20 and older all died (except Joshua and Caleb).
Therefore, I believe that it would be inconsistent if there was no age of accountability cut off for the rapture (and first resurrection) as well or God would have a double standard. However, it may not be as simple as being 20 in this case. God knows the hearts and can use discretion in this judgment that the human judges over Israel could not (they only judged by outward appearances and needed a simple test like age). I can imagine exceptions for those who packed more into their minor years than is typical. Minors, children and babies will remain on the earth (probably with assistance from angels) while their older righteous parents, siblings or peers will go on (but don't worry, they will return shortly to rule on the earth and glorified people who never sleep and who teleport should have plenty of time to continue being parents). They will have their chance later in the post millennial resurrection period (Rev 20:5,11-15).
(Note: don't misunderstand the difference between salvation and reward: not all the saints will have the reward of being firstfruits who get to rule with Christ, but all will have the salvation of eternal life sooner or later.) I know some will be offended by me saying it would make sense for there to be a maturity requirement to be raptured. But before you reject it as a grave error or adding to Scripture, think it through. Everyone who is raptured is the bride, marries Christ and rules as a king-priest. To reject that there is a rapture age/maturity requirement is to say that babies, toddlers, children and the immature will all be raptured, marry Christ, put on thrones and responsible for ruling and teaching people per Revelation 20:4. Now ask yourself which of these two scenarios is more plausible?
Conclusion
The rapture is a certified mystery of God's plan from the Bible which means we cannot expect to explain correctly without understanding God's plan. The rapture will happen at the 7th and "last" trumpet, after the Great Tribulation and the resurrection of the righteous. This timing fits the purpose behind the rapture perfectly. It is about rewarding the living and dead saints with eternal life so they can rule in the Millennium that immediately follows. Those "left behind" on the earth might not be just the wicked, but the immature righteous and children of the righteous do not seem to fit the term "ready" given to the Bride. The righteous will be protected on the earth during the seven bowl plagues just as the Israelites were during the Ten Plagues.
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Rapture
Sept 3, 2016 17:33:41 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2016 17:33:41 GMT -5
WOW – there is a lot here. This certainly is not my type of Christianity. This author makes so many anthropomorphized assumptions. If “ALL” his assumptions are correct then this may well be an interesting article. BUT – I am going to pick at some of his statements.
"Similarly, the rapture confusion we observe today comes as a result of people trying to determine where one piece of the end time puzzle fits without having enough of puzzle laid out correctly. The many gaps in their end time picture make many wrong positions seem plausible. The rapture can fit fine almost anywhere in a timeline with lots of open space (pretrib, mid-trib, two raptures, etc.)." I whole heartedly agree – confusion – AND after reading this article I think there is a lot more confusion going on than just timing.
"In this article, I will fill in those gaps and in the process share some rare insights on the rapture that you probably never heard before. You'll have enough missing end time context to see what the timing of the rapture is beyond any doubt." OH BOY – he knows a thing beyond any doubt – already I am suspect
"… the Bible is not written in easy tutorial format full of organized and clearly stated terms and explanations. Rather, it is very hard. Its doctrines are spread out throughout many scattered verses often using very different terms for the same thing. This requires careful harmonization. As a result of this difficulty, sometimes inaccurate labels get assigned to a doctrine." Absolutely agree – incorrect assumptions lead to misunderstandings, but the phrase “requires careful harmonization” can also be used to justify any justification you care to make.
"What phrase is that? In 1 Thessalonians we find it: 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)— Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord. The Greek word meaning "caught up" or "taken by force" is harpazo. The word rapture comes from the Latin word rapio which itself appears in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible for that verse." G726, ἁρπάζω, harpazō From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). G138, αἱρέομαι, aihreomai Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - choose. G142, αἴρω, airō A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor);
"1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (HCSB)— 17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord . This verse then gives us our definition for what the rapture is: it is a sky gathering of the freshly glorified saints." I agree – to choose for one’s self, to take by force – BUT, to say: “… our definition for what the rapture is: it is a sky gathering …”
G3507, νεφέλη, nephelē From G3509; properly cloudiness, that is, (concretely) a cloud: - cloud.
For me there is an important verse overlooked 1 John 3:2 (ASV) Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is
I am a multidimensionalist and this verse always makes me think of Jesus Christ being transfigured upon the mount, standing between Moses and Elisha. Being who appeared within this dimension but clearly something more that glowed with glory. Something a lot more amazing is happening here than just human bodies being caught into the physical atmosphere (sky)
Eph 2:2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
the prince of the powers of the air – does this imply that the beast has no power underwater? No – how silly is that. In this case the AIR implies something a lot more spiritual than just molecules of oxygen and nitrogen
Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
the prince of the powers of the air here is located in the heavenly places.
How about the expression - so we will always be with the Lord
How does this expression fit with being caught up into the atmosphere of oxygen and nitrogen - to always be with the Lord certainly implies something much more spiritual
The author says himself: "1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (HCSB)—Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed."
We will be changed – this implies a lot more than just physical bodies flying through the atmosphere – this implies a spiritual / dimensional awakening
"The resurrection of the dead in Christ to incorruptible glorified bodies (1Cor 15:52=1Th 4:16)." How can physical bodies be either incorruptible or glorified?
"The quickening of the "alive" in Christ to incorruptible glorified bodies (1Cor 15:52=1Th 4:16).
Here are the two rapture verses I could find in the OT. Isaiah 26:20 (HCSB)— Psalms 50:3-7 (HCSB)— It is important to note for later that both of them relate the gathering to heaven with the coming wrath of God on the earth."
A gathering to a heavenly realm – not the sky
Matthew 24:29-31 (HCSB)—29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Stars will fall from the atmosphere?
Mat 24:31 (ASV) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
different translation and a totally different meaning
G3772, οὐρανός, ouranos Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God);
Conclusion When Jesus Christ returns, we will see him as Peter and John saw Him transfigured upon the mount. We will be changed like Him, we will be like Him We will be caught up into the clouds of our atmosphere – NO – but to the smoke, cloud, mist of a heavenly dimension.
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Rapture
Sept 3, 2016 17:55:58 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2016 17:55:58 GMT -5
Rewards in Heaven
This author implies that the reward for the elect is simply - eternal life
Google says there are about 33 verses that teach otherwise. Roman Christendom teach different rewards for different groups. Saints, elect, and the just. My question has always been - if eternal life is the only goal, if it is the only reward - then just exactly how far inside the back door of heaven do I have to be to be in Heaven?
If some are at the right hand - implies that some are elsewhere
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Rapture
Sept 3, 2016 18:37:10 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2016 18:37:10 GMT -5
"The Overlooked Reason for the Rapture
Let's look again at a previous passage again to note what it says is the real purpose behind the rapture: Notice that it is all about giving the reward to the saints. What reward is that? Eternal life. And the timing is perfect. Because we find immediately after this comes the Millennium when Jesus will reign with his saints for 1000 years. You cannot rule even 100 years without eternal life, so that is why even those of us who are alive must be changed to "incorruptible" bodies right before taking our part in the Millennial reign." You cannot rule even 100 years without eternal life – Gosh, not one of the patriarchs before the flood would have had a problem with a 100 year rule and none of them had eternal life at the time. John time traveled to the future to record Revelation. Is God bound by the constraints of time? I think not.
"Revelation 20:4-6 (HCSB) — 4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people, who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God' word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. For if the rapture is not about saving anybody but is about rewarding saints who are ready to rule, then what about the saints who are not ready?
However, you have to understand what is in store for the raptured before you conclude that. All of the raptured become the Bride of Christ and attend the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9). They are given thrones and will rule on the earth over the survivors (Rev 19:5; Zech 14:16). No one raptured is going to clean latrines or be a bell hop, as wonderful as even those jobs may be in the Kingdom. All will be kings and priests (Rev 1:6;5:10)."
More anthropomorphizing
While they indeed are given new glorified bodies, nothing is said about a change of personalities, minds or understanding. We have to expect that to remain intact and not suddenly transformed, filled, and expanded and corrected. God uses organic growth of character and knowledge consistently. Our minds are already spirit-based so changing the venue for them from physical to spiritual bodies does not imply a concurrent mind change, except perhaps in abilities (perfect memories?). We can expect to continue learning in our new bodies for eternity which is a good thing to prevent getting bored with eternal life. Therefore after we are raptured into a new glorified body, we can expect to be only as mature and ready as we were before in our physical body." Again with the anthropomorphizing – agreed “… nothing is said about a change of personalities, minds or understanding …”
But nothing is said to suggest that after being transformed into multidimensional beings, like Jesus Christ Himself – we will be like Him 1 John 3:2 – that we will continue to be ignorant and stupid.
On the contrary, if you just want to continue the anthropomorphizing just what new understanding will we have once we stand in the presence of the Lord, or step across to the other side – seeing that which we have never seen before. Personally, I believe that suddenly everything will make sense. Just look at the texts from Enoch and Paul who both journeyed into Heaven and came back with much new information and understanding.
"Rapture Maturity Requirement? Firstfruits are those harvested first because they came to maturity first. Immature grain is not harvested. It's not ready. Those who are young and immature are also not "ready" yet and do not fit the picture of firstfruits. There will be lots of babies and children of the saints who are simply not ready to be in the harvest. Then there are the teens who may have more maturity, but they have not finished developing mentally or are not yet competent to rule. Therefore, I believe that it would be inconsistent if there was no age of accountability cut off for the rapture (and first resurrection) as well or God would have a double standard. However, it may not be as simple as being 20 in this case. God knows the hearts and can use discretion in this judgment that the human judges over Israel could not (they only judged by outward appearances and needed a simple test like age). I can imagine exceptions for those who packed more into their minor years than is typical. Minors, children and babies will remain on the earth (probably with assistance from angels) while their older righteous parents, siblings or peers will go on (but don't worry, they will return shortly to rule on the earth and glorified people who never sleep and who teleport should have plenty of time to continue being parents). They will have their chance later in the post millennial resurrection period (Rev 20:5,11-15)." I don’t buy into any of this – do spirits have an age? Are some spiritual being older than others? The Rabbi’s say – from God we came and to God we return. Therefore we are already there in Heaven before our physical births. The Book of Enoch talks of the angels dragging a soul back down to be place into another body. Our bodies may be born animal, but our souls are ageless.
It also depends on exactly how you interpret the word RULE. Will each and every Christian sit as a king on a throne literally – or is the mere presence of a true born again Christian of any age enough to change the behavior within a group, room, or people?
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Rapture
Sept 4, 2016 7:40:39 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Sept 4, 2016 7:40:39 GMT -5
Let me clarify my continued reference to the multidimensional aspect of this conversation. When Adam and Eve were created - they were immortal and they had more abilities than we do today. After Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, Adam is complaining to God about the extent of his de-evolutionary demise. First Book of Adam and Eve (Found in the Coptic greater canon)
The Forgotten Books of Eden, by Rutherford H. Platt, Jr., [1926], at sacred-texts.com
CHAP. VIII.
The "Bright Nature" of man is taken away.
THEN Adam wept and said, "O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us."
2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish."
3 When Adam and Eve had heard these words from God, they went their way; praising and worshipping Him with a sorrowful heart.
4 And God ceased to commune with them.The Creation institution takes it even farther from text of the Jewish Midrash. They say that Adam and Eve could even see the music being sung by the angels in heaven. Luke 16 - Lazarus and the rich man were in two different spiritual / heavenly locations separated by a vale. They could see one another clearly. We here in this 3rd dimensional construct cannot see into higher dimensions because our "BRIGHT NATURES" have been taken from us. But it is obvious that we are in full view of those beings in those higher dimensions. While in the heavens, Enoch was told to look upon the Earth. When Peter and John saw Christ transfigured upon the mount they were able to see Moses and Elisha (who are both beyond the vale of this world) 1 John 3:2 - we will be able to see Christ as He is - we will be like Him.
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