|
Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 13, 2015 12:49:20 GMT -5
Yes there was a being who claimed to be God, just like many people in mental hospital. There is absolutely NO WAR IN GOD'S HEAVEN. The angel CAME FROM GODS HEAVEN, to fight a battle of good against evil in OUR PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. If there were a war in heaven where God dwells, then the scripture lies and we can't trust it An Almighty Being such as God is, would not tolerate evil in his domain. Who are what entity could engage in battle for even one attosecond against a Being of Infinite Might, Infinite intelligence, Infinite Knowledge and Omnipresent? Absolute idiotic nonsense. Much like saying a single little cockroach, got in the boxing fight with Mike Tyson and knocked him out in the first round. God has allowed evil to exist in our physical universe, not in Heaven , where he has absolute control.Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” God would have had to be insane to create evil, " where he dwells in heaven."
OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN. HEAVEN EXISTS IN A TIMELESS PLACE OUTSIDE THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. (I am not shouting just trying to get over my understanding) When God created the physical universe, he created both evil and good, to test our free-will, in order to have companions who love him. Those people he promised to bring them where he was. "I go to prepare a place for you, for in my FATHERS HOUSE(HEAVEN) are many mansions etc etc" The angels in Daniel and Revelation came out of HEAVEN into our physical universe to battle against evil or battle through to reach Daniel with a message etc etc And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Cast into hell does that say after a battle with the Almighty? Infinitely Powerful Being............ .Battling ........... a finite being? (The ultimate impossible oxymoron)
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 13, 2015 13:22:04 GMT -5
There is absolutely NO WAR IN GOD'S HEAVEN. The angel CAME FROM GODS HEAVEN, to fight a battle of good against evil in OUR PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. [/b]OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN. HEAVEN EXISTS IN A TIMELESS PLACE OUTSIDE THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. (I am not shouting just trying to get over my understanding) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Cast into hell [/quote] Hmmmmm? We will have to study this one together Rev 12 - when does this take place - after the rapture and the Bride of Christ is where? (in heaven) why does it happen - because the beast continues to test the Bride even after the rapture what was the result of the war in heaven - the Dragon and a 1/3 of the angels were cast to earth Do Christians not go to the same locality as God? Are you saying that all demons and devils are only in this physical reality? Would that make the war of Rev 12 happen in this physical reality Then the Rapture only places Christians back into this physical reality? Lake of Fire After the Great Judgment at the end of the story do not confuse this with being cast to earth of Rev 12 - two different events - two different times and the Lake of Fire is not the same as the English word - Hell
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 13, 2015 13:31:39 GMT -5
Infinitely Powerful Being............ .Battling ........... a finite being? (The ultimate impossible oxymoron) You are absolutely correct No one here is even suggesting such a thing No Gnostic literature anywhere suggests such a thing Even Zoroasterism never suggests such a thing I do not know where you got this idea from - but it is not from this forum There is only one Creator - Who has place a opposing paradigm in place which plays out before Him
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 13, 2015 13:58:02 GMT -5
Mat 6:10 (KJV) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:10 (YLT) `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth.
Mat 6:10 (ASV) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
Is God's will done on Earth? Is God in absolute control? Turn on the Nightly News - is this God's will for Earth? or - is God's will not playing out on Earth?
Does God's will include our past Histories? - or - are we waiting for a future date for God's will to begin?
|
|
Larry
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by Larry on Jun 14, 2015 10:49:40 GMT -5
Many people ask, why does God allow all the evil in the world? You ask, is God's will being done on Earth?
Read your Bible! How does it end? Tribulation so bad that God has to shorten the days! Now turn on the news and watch it for just one moment. Looks like God's plan is unfolding just as foretold.
Is God's will being done on Earth? YES
|
|
|
Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 14, 2015 12:16:30 GMT -5
Many people ask, why does God allow all the evil in the world? You ask, is God's will being done on Earth? Read your Bible! How does it end? Tribulation so bad that God has to shorten the days! Now turn on the news and watch it for just one moment. Looks like God's plan is unfolding just as foretold. Is God's will being done on Earth? YES Not so Gods Divine will is absolutely not being done on planet earth. Even Jesus said the Devil is the god of this world. Larry you are welcome to the God of your understanding, but the entity you have come to believe in, is most decidedly not Almighty God of Infinite Power and Intelligence.
Demons are evil beings that have been cast out of heaven , with Satan and it is they that are restricted to the physical universe.
Angels on the other hand, are permitted, and sometimes instructed by the Almighty to travel from Gods Domain in Heaven, into our physical universe for some purpose given to them by the Almighty or the Archangels. They are free to return to heaven after completing the task given to them.
There are countless Angels always in our physical world to guide us through life and to counter the evil work of demons.
Demons do not have physical bodies, that is why they are always trying to possess the vulnerable.
You remind me of the Scripture, where it was said, "Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth" What makes you make a ridiculous statement that " I must read my Bible" do I come over as some sort of unschooled ignoramus?. I have been reading my Bible for over 40 years, so stop making assumptions about a person!
Mankind has messed up with the precious free-will that God gave them almost right from the beginning.If gods will were being done on Earth, then that god is not the Almighty Father God, but some evil malicious entity?
|
|
Larry
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by Larry on Jun 14, 2015 14:00:49 GMT -5
Now wait a minute
If you say YHWY is in absolute control - then how can God's will not be done on Earth?
Every End Times Ministry today goes around yelling - Look another fulfilled prophesy Each fulfilled prophecy validate scripture and therefore its author each prophesy moving us closer and closer to the 'End of Days' each prophesy moving us closer to Revelations
Who is the god of this world - the Serpent
Is this God's will or a mistake?
If you say YHWY is not in control - then what prevents humanity from changing the ending? What prevents the Serpent from changing the ending. In a lot of churches they preach that the Serpent is trying to change the ending, but he cannot because YHWY is in absolute control?
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 14:23:12 GMT -5
2 hours ago Alan McDougall said:
Demons are evil beings that have been cast out of heaven , with Satan and it is they that are restricted to the physical universe.
OK Alan - I have asked this of you before and I'll ask again - when does Revelation 12 take place?
This statement of your seems to indicate that you are an advocate of the Christian GAP theory. Basically saying that Rev 12 happened sometime between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2
The war in heaven happen long before Adam was created and all of the 'opposition' force was cast out of heaven.
Yet, every Christian commentary I read about Rev 12 says that the Bride of Christ is the Church (Rev 19:7 and 21:9)
The Church does not enter heaven as a whole until the Rapture.
So when does Rev 12 take place - at the beginning before Adam, or at the end after the Rapture?
|
|
|
Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 14, 2015 16:33:09 GMT -5
Dave the Battle is in our physical universe, not in HEAVEN where the mighty presence and awesome of the Almighties pervaded it with light.
1 John 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Now you people want me to believe that darkness exists in heaven where God is?
Our universe is both light and dark, however most decidedly there is absolutely no evil and no/zero darkness the presence of the Almighty
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 16:40:19 GMT -5
Our universe is both light and dark, however most decidedly there is absolutely no evil and no/zero darkness the presence of the Almighty
I think I see a flaw in your argument - not attacking, just discussing
God is omnipresent - correct? You say there is no darkness in the prescience of the Lord
Therefore there can be no darkness
Now you people want me to believe that darkness exists in heaven where God is?
If God is omnipresent - then where can the darkness be? Where is it?
I have had this conversation with many - Roman theology of only 1 heaven does not work. Paul says there are 10 Enoch say there are 10 Hebrew literature says there are 10 Science says there are 10
Even the Catholics have at least 5 - Heaven, Hell, purgatory, and then these 3D The Greeks make a distinction between Hades and Tartarus The Hebrews make a distinction between Sheol and Gehenna Was Luke 16 Hell and Heaven or what
|
|
|
Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 14, 2015 16:50:52 GMT -5
Dave revelation 12 takes place in mid-tribulation. The Woman is the Invisible true Church of God. Today we already see the likes of ISIS persecuting Christian by beheading and even by crucifixion
. The Dragon "Satan" His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven: This is obviously referring to stars in our physical universe or of our world order symbolic of Kings, leaders etc
"The Devil was given power over"
There are no stars in heaven in God Holy Domain of light and goodness.
Revelation 21:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 The city does not need the sun (Star) or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
|
|
|
Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 14, 2015 16:55:47 GMT -5
Our universe is both light and dark, however most decidedly there is absolutely no evil and no/zero darkness the presence of the AlmightyI think I see a flaw in your argument - not attacking, just discussing God is omnipresent - correct? You say there is no darkness in the prescience of the Lord Therefore there can be no darkness Now you people want me to believe that darkness exists in heaven where God is?If God is omnipresent - then where can the darkness be? Where is it? I have had this conversation with many - Roman theology of only 1 heaven does not work. Paul says there are 10 Enoch say there are 10 Hebrew literature says there are 10 Science says there are 10 Even the Catholics have at least 5 - Heaven, Hell, purgatory, and then these 3D The Greeks make a distinction between Hades and Tartarus The Hebrews make a distinction between Sheol and Gehenna Was Luke 16 Hell and Heaven or what You are correct about the existence of many heavens, however I am speaking about the highest heaven, where God dwells there is no darkness there or evil. In fact many of these so-called heavens are dark hell like places separated from the love of God. Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. That is just one of many hells, God is just and punishes people outside the salvation of Christ Jesus in accordance with their severity of evil, depravity they did during their lives on earth. It is obvious that God is not going to punish a person whole stole a load of bread to feed his starving family. Like would an unspeakably evil cannibalistic serial child molester and murderer. Jesus said "Some will be beaten with few stripes and some will be beaten with many stripes"
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 16:56:08 GMT -5
I don't know where I am on the pre- /mid- /post- trib thing - but
If, as you say, Rev 12 has not happened yet - then where is the Dragon and his 1/3 now?
If I understand what you are trying to say -
God is in heaven - but the Dragon and his 1/3 are in space, outer space, with planets and moons?
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 16:57:55 GMT -5
OK - I am with ya - the Highest Heaven - a rabbi would say 7th heaven
Then - you are admitting to other heavens?
and to me - heaven = dimension - two different word = same meaning
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 17:17:11 GMT -5
In fact many of these so-called heavens are dark hell like places separated from the love of God.
Not according to Enoch or Paul
In both versions, God's angels were working, performing deeds, in all but 3 Hs In both versions, there was one H that looked really inviting and the angel told Enoch this heaven was called Paradise. (Islam comes to mind)
Yes, they saw dungeons and prisons in 6 of the 10Hs - but even the term dungeons or prisons sound as if YHWY is in absolute control there as well - as He should be
|
|