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Post by Dave on May 6, 2015 4:50:30 GMT -5
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Shalaamu Dave, Rich and Stella,
I disagree on the trinity. Yahweh has 7 Spirits (רוחות) according to Isaiah 11:1-2 and Revelation 4:5. So the רוח הקדש (literally the Separated Wind, i.e. "Holy Spirit") is only one of 7 attributes of Yahweh, therefore it cannot be a part of a triune god. In Deuteronomy 6:4, Elohim emphasizes is oneness by saying: שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד Hear, O Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh is One (אחד, from Proto-Semitic אחד or וחד meaning "to unite").
Blessings to all of you,
Shalaamu ʕAlaykum
-- Seitz (הלתואם Hal-Tawʔam)[/quote] You must have read my mind - I have been craving this conversation for a long timeI have so many questions for you - as some one into the language - Ponder the following: again - clarification - there are several different concept at play - Holy Spirit - is this the same as the comforter of John 14? - is the the same as Jewish Shekinah Genesis 1:27 NKJV) So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Is this one sentence in which our image = male and female or is this two sentences in which man is made in God's image only and then made different? Doesn't Gen 1:27 support the concept of the Jewish Shekinah - ancient Gnostics called her the Goddess of Wisdom / Sophia |
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Post by Dave on May 6, 2015 4:58:11 GMT -5
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Shalaamu Dave, Rich and Stella,
I disagree on the trinity. Yahweh has 7 Spirits (רוחות) according to Isaiah 11:1-2 and Revelation 4:5. So the רוח הקדש (literally the Separated Wind, i.e. "Holy Spirit") is only one of 7 attributes of Yahweh, therefore it cannot be a part of a triune god. In Deuteronomy 6:4, Elohim emphasizes is oneness by saying: שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד Hear, O Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh is One (אחד, from Proto-Semitic אחד or וחד meaning "to unite").
Blessings to all of you,
Shalaamu ʕAlaykum
-- Seitz (הלתואם Hal-Tawʔam)[/quote] This is from myself - ponderingconfusion.com/papers.php?id=3dtrinityJudaism and 7 heavens
The most orthodox teaching of Judaism clearly identifies 7 heavens: 1) Vilon - Isa 40:22, 2) Raki'a Gen 1:17, 3) Shehaqim - Ps 78:23, 4) Zebul - Isa 63:15, I Kings 8:13, 5) Ma'on - Deut 26:15, Ps 42:9, 6) Machon -1 Kings 7:30, Deut 28:12, 7) Araboth - The seventh Heaven.
Supplemental Jewish literature such as the Merkavah and Heichalot, found within the Mid Rash; and the Third Book of Enoch dedicate themselves with the details of these heavens.
Islam and 7 heavens
To be clear, the word heavens in English translations are of the Arabic word, Samaa’a; which in modern Arabic is often translated as sky. However, many Islamic scholars argue that the original meaning of this word was actually the multiverse, or worlds of space and time, and not simply sky as used in modern Arabic. The seven heavens are the seven layered realms of the spiritual upper world where generally angels and other spiritual beings reside. These seven heavens are all apart of the Islamic Al-Ghayb, or the unseen reality.
Koran 67:1-3 “… He is the Almighty, the Oft-Forgiving; Who has created the seven heavens one above another; you can see no fault in the creation of the Most Gracious.”
Koran 71:15-16 “See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the Sun a Lamp?”
The Sunni teach that Muhammad visited each of the seven heavens on his journey to meet God and The Divine Throne. Shiite writings names the seven heavens as follows: 1) Rafi', 2) Qaydum, 3) Marum, 4) Arfalun, 5) Hay'oun, 6) Arous, 7) Ajma'.
Hinduism and 7 Heavens
Hinduism also has the concept of seven heavens called the Vyahritis: 1) Bhoor-Loka, 2) Bhuvar-Loka, 3) Svar-Loka, 4) Mahar-Loka, 5) Jana-Loka, 6) Tapa-Loka, 7) Satya-loka
Do the math 7 + 3 = 10
Do the math; seven heavens, dimensions, or localities of reality, plus the three dimensions of our coporeal reality equal a 10 dimensional reality. Interesting enough by itself, but extremely fascinating in the light of the most current scientific theories that also mathematically predict 10 dimensions of space and one of time.My Point hereThere is an overwhelming themne here of a 10-dimensional multiverse You asked me about Enoch - how do you hold the value of the Jewish Zohar? I am not at my own desk and don't have the ref at hand - but the Zohar speak of 10 being the number of things - not 98 it says or 11 - but 10 Am I saying this is the only answer - no way [/b]- it is all speculative (or is it really just testing different scientific hypothesis?) |
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Post by Dave on May 6, 2015 12:16:56 GMT -5
Not the Zohar
THE BOOK OF CREATION 1:2 “Ten are the numbers, as are the Sephiroth, (the 10 attributes/emanations in Kabbalah through which God created the world and/or manifests Himself) and twenty-two the letters, these are the Foundation of all things. Of these letters, three are mothers, seven are double, and twelve are simple. 3 The ten numbers formed from nothing are the Decad: these are seen in the fingers of the hands, five on one, five on the other, and over them is the Covenant by voice spiritual, and the rite of Circumcision, corporeal (as of Abraham). 4 Ten are the numbers of the ineffable Sephiroth, ten and not nine, ten and not eleven. Learn this wisdom, and be wise in the understanding of it, investigate these numbers, and draw knowledge from them, fix the design in its purity, and pass from it to its Creator seated on his throne. 5 These Ten Numbers, beyond the Infinite one, have the boundless realms, boundless origin and end, an abyss of good and one of evil, boundless height and depth, East and West, North and South, and the one only God and king, faithful forever seated on his throne, shall rule over all, forever and ever. 6 These ten Sephiroth which are ineffable, whose appearance is like scintillating flames, have no end but are infinite. The word of God is in them as they burst forth, and as they return; they obey the divine command, rushing along as a whirlwind, returning to prostrate themselves at his throne. …23
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Post by Dave on May 6, 2015 13:37:44 GMT -5
I've asked the question about the Holy Spirit
In line with that question I would like to explore the difference between 'el and 'elohym
Romanology simply lumps these two words togheter into one meaning. I am aware of the traditional arguments. The plurality of the different qualities of the Lord justify / mandate the plurality of the word. If you are a Trinity believer - then that's the plurality that = 'elohym
Josh 22:22 says - twice - Yahweh is the God (singular) of gods (plural) - the 'el of the 'elohym
Several times scripture tells us not to worship other 'elohym but only 'el
Scripture is packed with reference to - conflict with - "other 'elohym" - 'other gods'
Enoch says that the 'son's of God' (actually the sons of 'eloym) came to earth and desired to be worshiped as gods themselves
Enoch tells us that there were approximately 200 of them - who became as gods - male and female with children
The oldest writing on the planet - sat that the Annanaki came down and acted as gods - again about 200 of them
The Hittites - had 200 storm gods - the Canaanites has 200 gods the Greek, Rome, Norsemen, Aztecs, more, more
all the same theme - male and female with children that fight amongst themselves
Isn't this always the deception being played out against man - worshiping creation, instead of the one true Creator
Even the no-God camp - result in a love of self - a worship of self - I can do it on my arrogant self - Toasist / Buddhism
Even science-ology is a worship of creation's ability to self-create (by an unexplained mechanism)
In Hebrew 'elohym doesn't always get translated as even gods - judges - angels?
It was the singular 'el - I am - that Moses could not behold
Because the 'elohym have been seen by many
A fundamental Christian my claim that all creation is held with the hand of God - or that God maintains the Heavens singularly
But Enoch gives the impression that many of the maintenance routines of te universe are carries out by a staff of (for the lack of a better term from a human's physical experience spiritual beings. Less than God, but more than man.
Does Enoch's plurality diminish, in any way, the majesty and glory of the Fundamental Christian's Singularity?
Gen 1:26 - God said ('el - singular) let us ('elohym - plural) make in our (plural) image
The 'elohym did it all from Gen 1:1 on - scripture is clear
Gen 1:27 leave me with the impression that the plurality of God's image is male and female
The Jewish Shekinah is an orthodox / fundamental Jewish view of - the feminine aspect of God / Holy Spirit
Gnostic Pagan Beliefs
In OT say s that no man can see the 'el - the I am - only His Glory
Steven saw Christ standing next to the Glory of the Lord - (implying a third unseen component)
Am I saying people need to suddenly embrace the Trinity and that the Trinity = God the androgynous Father, a manliness Messiah, and a female Holy Spirit - No - but, it feels closer to the ancient whole than the modern macho male only version.
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Larry
Junior Member
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Post by Larry on May 10, 2015 12:59:19 GMT -5
I cannot respond anything intelligent about your discussion here, but it stirs a long held question of my own. I have never understood how in the Gen 1 both man and woman are form in God's image. But then in Gen 2 it appears as if God only made man alone then made Eve from his rib. Flesh of my flesh they say. This is why marriage is between one man and one woman because this is the only arrangement that equals a whole person in the eyes of the Lord.
If God created Adam from dust and then breathed in the life, how did Eve get her breathe of life, or does she even have one?
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Post by Dave on May 15, 2015 20:57:43 GMT -5
I have the perfect answer -- I don't know
What I am sure of - is it is more complicated than we think - who could know. That isn't the point.
Gnostic literature is criticized for its reference to - The Goddess of Wisdom - The Goddess Sophia -- PAGAN
However - Judeo-Christian cosmology about the feminine aspect of the Creator is not simply black and white.
In Hebrew tradition, Shekinah is supposed to be the feminine aspect of God that comes down from heaven and mingles with the people.
Messianic Jews believe this to be the Holy Spirit
Jesus promised us the Comforter - to guide/teach/sustain us - spiritos in Greek and Aramaic is feminine
Ancient man saw gods as male, but their thoughts as female
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  
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