God's Love vrs Burn in Hell

[Richard]

The doctrine of eternal Hell Fire torment has always seemed to me in conflict with - Love one another as I have loved you.

I love you - and most of you will burn in hell for eternity - is this really the message of the Gospel?

[loretta]

speaking of love....I would like your thoughts on 1 Cor 13. There are several different interpretations on what is being addressed in verses 8-12. One thing I noticed was the three items mentioned first..prophecies, tongues and knowledge and then in the next section three more items...talking, thinking and reasoning (like a child). Do you think these are in reference to each other? And what is the point of this whole discourse? thanks.

[Dave]

As a scientist, I want to say that we corporeal creatures exist in a duality of nature. It is true! We are simple biology that bleeds and breeds that has a very obvious end – yet – we are more. That inner self – that mind’s eye – our essence – that thing of us we believe, hope, and have faith continues after death!

Just as a photon, and all sub atomic particles are only measurable as particles is when they exist in groups (or when interacting with other particles) – singularly they are only measurable as wave. You and I are also both thing and non-thing. Biology and essence. Animal and spirit.

The goal is to awaken that non-thing side of our natures. Grow and develop that spirit within us.

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

John 3:1 (NIV) Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. " 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The point - Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Now for - 1 Corinthians 13 (ASV)

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Love suffereth long, [and] is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Love never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall be done away; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

You asked: "One thing I noticed was the three items mentioned first..prophecies, tongues and knowledge and then in the next section three more items...talking, thinking and reasoning (like a child). Do you think these are in reference to each other? And what is the point of this whole discourse?"

2 points

1- Greek – the use of three adjectives or adverbs in a series is very Greek. Three branch Government – Legislative, Executive, and Judicial is very Greek

2- This is a clear reference to that duality of nature within us – animal vrs spirit. Look at the expression: faith, hope, love and love is the greatest – in fact, love is the only important fraction.

Faith and Hope - are both of animal origin. These are things we choose to do, we focus on doing

Love – is a gift from above. Love is our tangible evidence of Christ flowing through us. It is our tangible evidence that we “are” born again – or at least suffering birthing pains.

James 2:14 (NIV) What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Boy do I ever know a few “Christians” like this! Clean the church, make all the meals, do all the dishes, make the coffee, take the notes, answer the phone like some type of religious addict. I have seen these people actually cringe when someone new volunteers for a project, as if someone else was stealing their glory.

They do and do and do – but does that yield evidence they are “born again” doing it out of love – or some earthly compulsive disorder ?

The Catholics use this passage of James to validate there compulsion for sacraments – and other never ending list of things to do, or wear, or say in some pagan chant.

Being good and doing good things by the score is not the point! – Awakening that inner spirit, mature it, grow its connection to spiritual consciousness – become born again. – Spiritually walk with Christ / allow Him to live within us – or whatever vocabulary you need to complete the concept.

Just as this Gnostic Scripture tells me:

In Gnostic beliefs, Archons are planetary rulers and guardians of the spiritual planes. The Archons were associated with the planets of our solar system, or more precisely - the visible seven planets. The common language of the time was Greek. In Greek, Archon means authority and comes from the same root as archangel. They are presented as predatory beings who inhibit spiritual awakening by convincing humanity of a false reality, they are the forces of sin, fear, and temptation. (altreligion.about.com/library)

Again notice - sin, fear, and temptation - 3
Sin and Fear is what our biology is responsible for
Temptation is from the outside - choose it or not

"The Archons cast a trance over Adam which caused him to be sleepy, but it was his perception they dulled ... They make our hearts heavy that we may not pay attention and may not see. So we loose the reflection of the Divine Light within us ... The Archons burden the soul, attracting us to works of evil, and pull us down into oblivion, make us forget who we are. (The Apocrypha of John II 22: 14-10, though 27-20.)" (metahistory.org/Gnostic Catechism)

The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, another text of gnostic origin, "... explains how the Archons induce a false plan of salvation into the human mind, a counterfeit of the true plan of self-liberation we can take by developing our innate potential of Nous, 'divine-intelligence.'" the script goes on to say, "... that 'the doctrine of Aliens' is a great deception upon the human soul." (metahistory.org/ExtrarerrestrialRelioion.php)

Perhaps – complete spiritual rebirth doesn’t occur until our physical death and our spirit is set free.

Ponder this bizarre metaphor - here we are in a physical realm discussion the spiritual reality so all is speculative – but what if our only possible potential here on earth is to develop our inner spirit – mature it – as if it was a spiritual fetus within our biological womb – so – at the moment of spiritual rebirth (physical death of the body) our spiritual embryos are ready to grow and develop within their new home/environment - regardless of how you read scripture – heaven is promised with different localities, positions, and or, rewards

The choice is prepare for your position now, or, cross over one day and regret your eventual location.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

2 points

1- Just as cartoons and games gives way to responsibilities of finance
2- Our religious walk must also grow from the information we uncover into a more individually personal sojourn within. You you - the ole' "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" stuff.

This a part of my personal frustrations with the local version of Roman church - I have been attending for more than 40 yrs off and on - and it has always just been an entry level experience.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

Ponder this:
For now we see in a mirror, darkly;
As I look at myself and examine my own sin - I subconsciously do it with rose colored glasses - and I don't look so bad in a dim light.

but then face to face:
One day, the Book of Life will open - or as Edgar Cacye would say - the galactic record - all will be made evident - and I will have no excuse

now I know in part;
Ya ya - I know I have a few faults - (but, mostly I am in some corporeal selfish denial)

but then shall I know fully
cuz - the truth will be evident - and self conviction and guilt will be the least of your worries

(Ha Ha Ha - I can't stop laughing - on a re-read of this, I see I wrote I, in the first person everywhere except here - then I said least of your worries - man, isn't that a subconscious Freudian slip! - I meant to say - least of my worries!)

even as also I was fully known.
because - all I do - all I think and dream - all I am - and have always been - has been in full view of (again here it is a choice of vocabulary) - In full view of the Lord is obvious - totally recorded in the Book of Life - imprinted into the fabric of the galactic record - a part of the cosmic consciousness - but no matter how you slice and dice it - all is in full view and memory of our higher power.

Kind of eloquent isn't it? Paul did write an all time best seller you know.

[loretta]

So it looks like we individually and corporately are all, at best still just basically children until we are changed into a glorified body.
...it is so refreshing to feel the freedom to discuss ideas with people who are not fearful and threatened by thinking outside the "box". I have just in the last couple of years seriously questioned the eternal damnation doctrine...so I am WAY outside the comfort zone of most of my old friends. But I LOVE the new image I now have of a loving God who is about reconciliation rather than eternal punishment. It fits the BIG PICTURE I have been trying to understand...IE.. What in the world is God doing?
thanks for sharing your thoughts...(and I liked the insight on the 3 adjectives being a Greek style...fun to know)
Loretta in BEND, OR

[Elflord]

I was exactly where Loretta is now a few years ago. I fortunately found iswasandwillbe.com and bibletruths.com. The first site is Mike Vinson, a dear friend, and the second is Larry "Ray" Smith, another dear friend who's passed away. Both men seem to see the scriptures as the apostles saw them. Mike still has a few conferences a year around the southern US and sometimes Canada.

About Corinthians. One missed point; in the mirror, we are the reflection. If God is the God of the Universe, we are not the creature, but His reflection. That is why our understanding is so limited.

We are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. Quite the opposite; we are physical beings having a spiritual experience. The result is seeing the whole Universe through a fog.

[Dave]

We are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. Quite the opposite; we are physical beings having a spiritual experience.


Thank you ElfLord – here we are at the division in Christian Cosmology and the question that separated The Eastern Orthodox Chruch from Rome and the world. The Fourth Euniminical Counsel, of 461 AD, was held over this very issue.

The heresy of Eutyches - the name Eutychians is given by some writers only to those in Armenia, taught that Jesus was just born an man. Jesus was just biology, exactly like you and I, until he was baptized by John – and then Jesus became Divine.

Pope Dioscorus I, from the Coptic Church in Alexandria Egypt, argued that Jesus was Divine from conception.

The conclusion of the counsel was to agree to disagree. Pope Dioscorus I returned to the Church in Alexandria, Founded by Mark, the interpreter of Peter, who preached a few miles down the road in a town called Babylon Egypt. The Coptic Church became what we today called Eastern Orthodox. The Eutyches followers did not build anything that lasted. This event allowed Rome to step in by corporate decree and usurped Christendom. Although Rome claims that Peter was their first Pope – Peter did not preach from Rome – Paul did. This is exactly why 85% of the NT Canon is written by Paul to the Roman Empire.

For me it is a “Chicken versus Egg” conundrum!

I just posted a segment about being one of the “Human Herd” trying to stand out and be recognized.

On the surface it would seem I am supporting the “physical having a spiritual experience” position. I did refer to God as some type of Cosmic Rancher harvesting the best from possibly many planets with many herds.

If we believe that we are merely biology that has learned its way to spiritual awakening, then does the capability extend to all biology? Will my cat, or your gold fish, have a chance? – OR – is this phenomena limited to the human experience? If so, why?

But then I read:

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

What does it mean to be a BEING? Does a fly qualify? Or does this choice of vocabulary imply something more?

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Gnostic Text

“The Archons cast a trance over Adam which caused him to be sleepy, but it was his perception they dulled ... They make our hearts heavy that we may not pay attention and may not see. So we loose the reflection of the Divine Light within us ... The Archons burden the soul, attracting us to works of evil, and pull us down into oblivion, make us forget who we are. (The Apocrypha of John II 22: 14-10, though 27-20.)" (metahistory.org/Gnostic Catechism)


Biology begets biology – In my opinion as a Human Being, biology cannot beget spirit. Therefore, my spirit has always been a part of my composition – it remains a conscious choice to “Grow” it not create it from nothing. The ability to create is reserved for a much higher power than you or I.

Even the notion of reincarnation implies that essence existed prior to physical birth.

You can only awaken that which is already within you.

If this is true – is there a chance that – whatever it is that is within us might be evil?

Are some men predestined to be the Judas, Ganges Cons, Hitler, Stalin, or serial killing psychopaths that serve some purpose in the big picture? As apposed, to those around us that were just born EMPTY.

[Alan McDougall]

May 10, 2012 4:14:49 GMT -5 Richard said:

The doctrine of eternal Hell Fire torment has always seemed to me in conflict with - Love one another as I have loved you.

I love you - and most of you will burn in hell for eternity - is this really the message of the Gospel?

God is love, however he is more than just love and has other attributes as well.

From the Bible?

"It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

"God is a consuming fire"

Dont make the mistake of turning Almighty God, into a fatherly "Father Christmas"

[Dave]

May 26, 2015 12:05:33 GMT -5 Alan McDougall said:

"It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

"God is a consuming fire"

Dont make the mistake of turning Almighty God, into a fatherly "Father Christmas"

Father Christmas

I like it - I criticize (what I call) "the feel good message" - "feel good Christianity" that is the predominate message throughout Roman Christendom

I see people come to church, because they need something - they long for something - Mom has cancer, I am in a divorce, we are loosing our home to the bank - anything - and everything that makes life "un-rewarding" - these people come to church and are feed the Roman's 8:28 bandaid for everything.

Just believe - just trust - and all will be OK

Gnosticism teaches - The Great Contest
If you are lost - the opposition doesn't even notice you - you are already Damned
But - if you move closer to piety - the enemy is in your face making your pious walk as hard as possible

I think the point of this thread is -

Roman Christendom - for the most part - preach the empty 'feel good' message - God is LOVE
Although Romans 8:28 is correct and God is love, the way it is presented by Christendom is an empty message. Mon still dies, the divorce happen anyway, and the Bank still re-poed the house.

The end result of this empty message is - "If" there is a God as Rome preached, then why doesn't He fix things here on earth. Why does He allow bad things to happen to good people. Why does sweet innocent little Jimmy have to die? People turn on the nightly news and ask - where is this loving God Rome preaches. Either God doesn't care, is ineffective, is evil, or doesn't exist.

The Baptist - on the other hand, preach that you better believe or you are going to rot in hell for all eternity. This leaves the question - God is LOVE or are 99.99% of people just going to BURN IN HELL?

Gnosticism - Of course God is love - or we wouldn't be having this conversation. He made all of creation just so you and I could experience this reality and seek Him in it. However, scripture tell us that God TEST his people. Deut 8:2, Jer 17:10, James 1:3.

In fact Isa 45:7-8, Job 20:29, Prov 16:4 tells us that God made the wicked, evil, 'RA' for the testing of His people

Conversely - when a Gnostic turns on the evening news - all we see is the CONTEST

[Alan McDougall]

The best Humans can be in relation to the total perfection of the Almighty is "Infinitely remote from his Holy perfection.

It is incorrect to suggest that God is OMNI-BENEVOLENT. 

We minute mortal beings need to approach Almighty God with great reverence and love.

I shudder when I hear these televangelists demanding and shouting at the Almighty. When Moses approached the presence of God in the burning bush, he was told "Take off your shoes, because you stand on Holy Ground"

Where, where has the sacred respect and awe for the Supreme Being in these times?

[Dave]

Where, where has the sacred respect and awe for the Supreme Being in these times?

Alan - what an amazing statement - I wish I said this!

My exposure to Romanology, church leader, Sunday School, board member - the mistake I saw all around me was this: Many people felt this exact same way once - but the adoption of personal reverence is mistaken or misdirected as the practice of tradition - I mean religion

I come from a community deep with the tradition of plain clothes, I have a beard, I wear a hat, and I have often thought of wearing a yamaka at work. I walk into a Christian church I stand out - they cannot decide if I am orthodox or just some cowboy hippy guy. I enjoy the controversy because it creates the debate. I am by no means a Bible expert, but I know a few things and I wait for the opportunity to ask a question. Once the congregation sees that I am more knowledgeable than the pastor (on this particular topic) - I am not longer welcome. Here in Trinidad Colorado, The Church of 'Christ', the congregation and the pastor asked me to shut up or leave in the middle of a "Bible Study" - they really didn't want to study anything - the pastor did a little home work and everyone just wants to be told - so they don't have to do their own search.

My dress, my job, my house, my image, my knowledge has absolutely nothing to do with my faith
other than being a possible side effect

When I made the comment about being a Monk - I mean this as seeking personally, walking personally, one on one,

How does an individual give sacred respect and awe for the Supreme Being in these times?
other than alone in the dark (Mat 6) Listening not asking or apologizing
and witnessing as best we know how, on as many levels as we know how to the world

as we are now

[Deleted]

So many wonderful things written in this thread, by you all. Thank you.

As a scientist, I want to say that we corporeal creatures exist in a duality of nature. (DAVE'S point is true)

we are physical beings having a spiritual experience. (Elflord's point is correct)

As physical beings yoked in relationship to the Holy Spirit, who lives personally within us, recording daily how our character develops (something spiritual from GOD, which we make unique as our own - ie we become clones of GOD's character but not personality clones- all become uniquely different); this spiritual being is all we take to heaven, and the only "divine thing" we own in relationship with GOD (our character is neither fully owned or created by GOD, nor fully owned or created by man- it is the result of relationship)

The verse that explains this so simply?

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The Holy Spirit itself bears witness with our character recorded daily by the Holy Spirit who lives with us, that we are the children of Elohiym.

About the matter raised that GOD is love. Love is a relational generation of Providers and Responders with the Son as a Collector, together in relationship making things move emotionally and physically in relationship with material beings like man.

Do the wicked burn forever in hell as a Being, by love? No. Love is an immense burning, much like the simile of our Sun. If "matter with it's associated character" as a Being, moves closer to our Sun, the intense burning removes and destroys the atoms within, until nothing is left. The "righteous" have a different experience. Their character is developed and retained by Divinity and when such spiritual beings come close to the Sun of Burning, we are "fire-proof" because "character" is not made of matter, it comes from a different dimension.

The wicked who have no character developed by relationship of matter with divinity, retain only a physical character by matter alone (ie self), are consumed to nothingness by the Burning Nature of Love. Love developed by the "Straight Ones" on the other hand, have their hands in the hand of Jesus, and His character flows into us, so we develop "characters of divinity", not "characters made from matter alone", so we can endure the Burning of Love and NOT perish. Shalom

[Dave]

Love is a burning fire that purifies us - I like it

Love is neither polite or kind - true love is tough love - sometimes it burns - yet necessary

Their hands in the hand of Jesus, and His character flows into us, so we develop "characters of divinity", not "characters made from matter alone", so we can endure the Burning of Love and NOT perish.

so we can endure the purification process by fire in the after life

[Deleted]

Yes Dave, I like that. Love like fire does purify us, removes the dross from our character, much the same way a blacksmith refires metal from other inferior metals.

As some have said, Jesus does not cut and polish worthless stone, and while the refining process is an intense burning, the reason behind it is for our good.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Here is what happens if the reverse occurs in people who want riches, greed and a love for self, the riches rust and their flesh burns them up when exposed to God's love. Interesting poetry picture isn't it?

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(KJV)

The same poetry picture, but this time used for the righteous ones. What do they do differently?

Pr 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
13 ¶ Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

This passage relates the discipline of the heavenly father to us an adopted son, as one finding Wisdom (a divine Being), also a simile to rich metal, the same idea as refining metal in a fire. She (the Holy Spirit) is our tree of living.


Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

What is your take on Mammon, how does this fit with "master" and "metal" and what is Jesus saying here?


Have a blessed day in Jesus. Shalom

[Dave]

Zec 13:9 - before mortal death? - after mortal death?

Mammon - labeling things is difficult - how do you sum up all of any subject in a single phrase or description

I look at from a different perspective

There is the Creator - and His creation
(A) Worship of the Creator = TOV = recognizing Him as Creator, respect Him for this opportunity, and then seeking Him, seek the kingdom, seeking improved relationship - seeking salvation how ever you want to say it - becomes our FOCUS

(B) Sin - Error - RA is any distraction that interferes with A

Mammon - Google Dictionary - wealth regarded as an evil influence or false object of worship and devotion. It was taken by medieval writers as the name of the devil of covetousness, and revived in this sense by Milton.

The Greek is uncomplicated G3126 Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified)

Avarice - extreme greed for wealth or material gain.

What is wealth?

To a hungry man - a bowel of stew (Esau) may seem more important than our inheritance

Is Mammon money - sure - but is greed alone without the cash equally as guilty - sure
If your FOCUS is on anything within creation - instead of on the Creator = fame - reputation - recognition - cash - power it is Mammon

Yet - here I am trapped within the American culture, and more importantly, system

Should I give it all away to the poor - and walk away to follow Christ? I have the urge to become a Monk and dedicate my life to nothing but study and prayer -

Gnostic literature suggest I should hate this life and be willing to lay it down anytime. He that clings to life will loose it.

I say I would - I think I would - I hope I would - never deny Christ
But until that moment comes when a Muslim blade is at my neck - will I hesitate to save my own neck?

The Gospel of Philip

Fear not the flesh nor love it. If you fear it, it will gain mastery over you. If you love it, it will swallow and paralyze you.

The Book of Thomas the Contender

"Woe to you who hope in the flesh and in the prison that will perish! How long will you be oblivious? And how long will you suppose that the imperishables will perish too? Your hope is set upon the world, and your god is this life! You are corrupting your souls!

However, I come to this revelation after I am a father. Scripture also tells me that I have a responsibility to them as well - their education - to set them upon their own paths to find Him.

Scripture also says - when it gets tough - I should be willing to turn them over to RA - just as Lot did - will I hesitate to save my own family?

Who do I love more - Him or them?

Mathew 10:34-39

The Apocryphon of James

Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour. For the good will not enter into the world. Scorn death, therefore, and take thought for life!

And what is there to trouble them? As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death.

The Gospel of Thomas

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

[Deleted]

Always enjoy reading the Gnostic literature you select Dave.

Consider this verse in Hebrew:

Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters(baal): for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (baal).

1Ki 18:21 ¶ And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

My electronic Bible software cross references Baal to Mammon, whether this is obvious I am not sure. The word "two masters" tells you anyway.

The word "baal" is an interesting word. It comes in two forms, the verb form meaning "master" and the noun form meaning "master-idol", so something like that.
Nouns describe an action fully complete, the master is no longer listening to the conscience via the Holy Spirit and is fully "self", or "alone" "doing as they please" as "Baal" the idol god they become themselves. This is a simile of rich merchants chasing money, ie the love of money.

I tend to see two masters in every free will to choose:

We choose ourselves as master, and become wicked, wandering far from relationship with divinity.

We choose Jesus as our master. And He saves us. We ask Him to remove the natural Baal master powers of self, and let Jesus powers rule over us.

1Ki 18:21 calls this religious process "hop" the verb, The noun is "Passover" but is actually mean to the "hopping feast day" when we decide to hop over to Jesus side more and more until our Baal master powers of self is made dead.

The is the true source of missing or sin. Our Baal master powers of self. It's the only Hebrew word I think for master, self and thus the term surrender or subdue.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul explains people do Baal masters power of self to follow the torah by human effort alone, while this is possible (legalism) it means nothing to GOD.

We must support Jesus instead, sowing his words in our minds to obey the directions of the torah by supporting the promises that allows Jesus power to empower us, not our natural baal master powers of self.

See the difference. On the outside both are seen as torah followers.
One does the torah by humans baal master powers of self, as Paul calls works of the Law
and the other does them by supporting Jesus words, and those words support us back with Jesus power flowing as we claim those words in hope via pray.

This is how I see God and Baal. and the hopping over process.

I do not claim to see this as "inspired" because nobody on the Internet talks about salvation, self and what faith is supposed to do in followers of Jesus. It's an important question. No Internet source explains how to do get more and more faith from Jesus, and what is faith for? A Bible study shows faith means support. And baal means master. And Paul is showing us how these words work. Just my two pennies on this theme.

Shalom