Churchianity

[Dave]

Churchianity

Everywhere I go, I make it very clear that I am not a Roman Christian, meaning neither Catholic nor Protestant. However, as a parent, I take my children to a Sunday School setting almost weekly. Usually, I allow then to take me wherever they want to go. As a result, they have friends their own age in several churches (small c intended) of our community.

So, a new pastor comes to town to one of the churches we visited. In an effort to build membership and fill the seats, he actually paid me/us a home visit. He was even interested enough to engage me in my Gnostic version of Christianity for 2 hours. Not only was I invited to attend his Bible Study classes, but even to speak up and participate.

It didn’t take long for everyone to realize that I was not one of them. So, I quickly became the object of comparison. Over and over, the pastor injected negative comments about the Gnostics. In time that grew into comments about the confused individuals, who have websites, and written books, who are still searching.

Do to the pastors continued prodding, the congregation finally spoke up. They came to his classes to listen to him not to hear questions by Dave.

To this I respond:

Any Bible Study, in which questions are unwelcomed, is not a Bible Study at all, but a Bible lecture.

The congregation’s comment that they just came there to listen only to what the pastor had to say – was a restatement of the very way I see most Churchianity congregations – they did want to have to read or think for themselves they just wanted to be told what to think. As if the “MAN” standing at the head of the room was more expert than the Holy Spirit who is supposed to be our teacher.

Churches that are not welcoming to those that have questions about God, Christ, and scripture are closed private clubs!

This is exactly why I refuse Romanism, whether it be in the form of Catholicism or Protestantism.

This is also why I refuse churchianity in any form.

[Dave]

Our areas of disagreement:

They claimed that I was the one that was making scripture confusing, but yet they use their own Roman brand of double speak to justify their version of realty.

God created everything, nothing was made without his wish, - John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

However, God not only did not, but could not, make the evil, even though Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil^(H7451). I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Strong’s word study for the word “evil” used here in Hebrew (H7451)
רַע – ra’ – both masculine and feminine forms –used here as an adjective form of H7489
(feminine form used here – which matters to a Gnostic)
Definition – evil: distress, misery, injury, calamity, injury; evil: distress, adversity, misery; evil: injury, wrong; evil (ethical)
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 663 — evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34

Strong’s word H7489
רָעַע – ra’ a’ – verb
Definition - to be bad, be evil, to be wicked, be evil (ethically), to be injurious, be evil, to be displeasing, to do evil or wickedly, to do an injury or hurt,
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count Total: 83 - evil 20, evildoer 10, hurt 7, wickedly 5, worse 5, afflict 5, wicked 4, break 3, doer 3, ill 3, harm 3, displease 2, misc 13

This is the exact same Hebrew word used in Genesis to describe the tree of knowledge of good and EVIL. (Genesis 2:9, 2:17, 3:5, 3:22)

Genesis 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness^(H7451) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil^(H7451) continually.

Genesis 13:13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked^(H7451) and sinners against Jehovah exceedingly.

Psalms 121:7 Jehovah will keep thee from all evil^(H7451); He will keep thy soul.

Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes; Fear Jehovah, and depart from evil^(H7451):

So, in Isaiah 45:7, what exactly what is saying that he created? I was trying to expound on this point, but no one there could ever entertain that God did something that wasn’t only good

In response the pastor turned to his Bible, in which, this passage is translated as God created the chaos – end of discussion – the pastor is right and their perception of “Feel Good” Christianity was salvaged.

Other references to God creating the evil:

Exodus 4:11 And Jehovah said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? Or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?

Amos 3:6 Shall the trumpet be blown in a city, and the people not be afraid? shall evil befall a city, and Jehovah hath not done it?

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, And say, As I live for ever, 41 If I whet my glittering sword, And my hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine adversaries, And will recompense them that hate me. 42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, And my sword shall devour flesh; With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the head of the leaders of the enemy.

Romanism:

If you are a Roman Christian and the only study guides you will use all point you to the official Roman version.

Scofied’s Reference Notes says, - God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc, to be the sure fruits of sin.

Mathew Henry’s Commentary says - I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment.

Calvin’s Commentary says, - Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences.

Barnes' Notes, a Bible commentary, has this helpful additional comment: "The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace, which is war.”

Skeptics of Romanisn claim that the translators of many modern Bible editions are aware of the unsettling implications this verse holds for their faith; and therefore, have attempted to soften the blow by translating it in a more palatable way. The New International Version, for example, has this passage say that God creates “disaster”, while the English Standard Version has it as “calamity”, and the Revised Standard Version says “woe”. The Message translation creatively renders this verse as “I make harmonies and create discords”.

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes says, - All mens comforts and calamities come from thy hand.

Hebrew versus English
Judaism versus Christianity

One of the most interesting differences between Judaism and Christianity is the way they each read the Old Testament. Jesus Christ was a Jew. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Old Testament scriptures. Jesus Christ used the Jewish Old Testament scriptures to verify who He was. So, why don’t Jews and Christians read Old Testament passages the same? Other than the issue of Jesus Christ himself, why don’t the two religions agree on major concepts?

The time stamp of this Isaiah 45 passage:

The text of Isaiah 45 is directed to prove God’s glory to Cyrus, the King of Persia.

Adam Clark’s Commentary says, - From this Biblical text and from the non-Biblical text Xenophon’s Cyropaedia, it was the great principle of the Magian religion, which prevailed in Persia -- those powers who were the original authors of good and evil to mankind, representing them by light and darkness, as their proper emblems, are no other than creatures of God, the instruments which he employs in his government of the world, ordained or permitted by him in order to execute his wise and just decrees; and that there is no power, either of good or evil, independent of the one supreme God, infinite in power and in goodness. But then Clark adds that this is an absurd opinion, held by the person to whom this prophecy is addressed.

So, if Isaiah 45 is addressed to the Persians; then it is authored by the Israel. So, at the time this passage was authored, what did the Jews believe and continue to believe to this day?

Primacy Theory of God being responsible for evil:
From: Jeff Brenner, Ancient Hebrew research center @ www.ancient-hebrew.org/

In Jewish thought is it believed that God created both Good and Evil? Because God is creator and created the capacity for evil (evil being the opposite of goodness) is it then believed in Jewish thought that both Good and Evil come from God?

That is the fundamental communication of the ancient hebrew literature ("ahl"):
The ahl communicates one ultimate message: the divine causes all .....; the good, the bad, and the ugly. job 1:12, 18-19, 2:10 Speaking to a child one might say that the evil "he" creates is for good - surgeons do evil every day .... cutting and hacking on human bodies .... but for a greater good: healing. ...

The response today of most followers of the document called the bible; "we reject that notion.” The modern English translations ("met") of the ahl; and the commentators on the met have sanitized that message to their liking; and to restore the primacy of man. So, the ahl differs dramatically from the met.

God created both good and bad. He created the Malakh Ha-Satan, whose purpose is as his name states. He is "the Adversary", whose sole purpose with which Hashem create him for is to spiritually destroy man. God created evil to test man by presenting him with a choice, you can:

A) Allow Satan to succeed in destroying you spiritually by trampling over the mitzvot, rejecting the Sefer Ha-Torah (thereby accept the curse that is the result of rejecting the Sefer Ha-Torah), rejecting the divine origins of the Torah, etc.

OR

B) Choose good by obeying the mitzvot, accepting the Sefer Ha-Torah (thereby accepting the blessing that comes with accepting the Sefer Ha-Torah); accepting the divine origins of the Torah; acknowledging that there is only one god; acknowledging that the one god reveals himself to his emissaries through his many traits; acknowledging that he is unbound by those traits; acknowledging that there is nobody and nothing that stands his equal; realizing that he has complete and utter control over all of the force of nature and history; realizing that his level thought is so much greater than mankind's level of thought such that no man, nor woman, nor child, nor beast could ever conceive of anything at his level; realizing that mankind is powerless against him, such that even man's emotions are subject to his control; realizing that comparing the greatest weapon that mankind has ever and will ever build to him is like comparing a single grain of sand in a desert to the entire Milky Way Galaxy; etc.

Or, as I commented on their page:
... We are all lead to believe that we have free will and we can make our own choices in everything. But in Exodus 14:8 we learn that ... the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh ... so that God's plan unfolded the way He intended ...

Read more: ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=islam&action=display&thread=45&page=1#ixzz1wqf3UrAD

Proof that God does play both sides. Proof that God can reach out and use any of us to facilitate His will here on earth.

Read more: ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thread/960/primacy-theory-god-responsible-evil#ixzz2j4UBW2ke

[Dave]

Our areas of disagreement:

God’s Will

The pastor of this particular group stood up front of us and declared that he knew God’s will. To which, I responded that I though he was being pompous. This is actually the exchange that caused the congregation to become upset that I dare to question the divine authority and expertise of their pastor.

With the example of Adam and Eve in the garden, I asked if God knew the outcome before He placed them in the garden. Of course He did. He is God after all. He knows all. He only allowed it to happen, but it wasn’t His will.

This is another big difference between Gnostic Christianity and churchianity. If my brother is a known drug addict, and he is staying at my house, yet, I left the house with drugs lying open on the table; could any lawyer ever defend me from having no responsibility for my brothers using those drugs. It would be called negligence at best or criminal culpability at worse. But God knew Adam and Eve would fail His test, yet, He tested them anyway; how can anyone say the outcome was not God’s will?

The churchianity double speakers say, although it is true God put everything in place for the failure, placed Adam and Eve in harm’s way, knew the outcome before the transgression occurred; but the outcome wasn’t God’s will – Adam and Eve choose it, because they had free will.

My second example was if it was God’s will that Jesus Christ be betrayed, tortured, and killed. Of course it was, that is the whole point of the New Testament. My question was then – would it have seemed to be God’s will to the disciples at the time? No, I suggested, it only became obvious as God’s will after the fact, just as Adam and Eve’s transgression has come to be seen as part of God’s plan for humanity.

As a Gnostic, I am very comfortable with the idea of God playing both sides of the struggle, just as God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that God’s will could play out according His plan. Much like the Rabbinic statement that – “Speaking to a child one might say that the evil "he" creates is for good - surgeons do evil every day .... cutting and hacking on human bodies .... but for a greater good: healing. ...”

The gap in their theology:

churchianity claims it is I that makes these discussion confusing, yet, it is chrchianity that has painted itself into a theology that doesn’t answer many of the questions that all Christians ask. Why are we here? What is it all about? Why do bad things happen to good people? Nice little Timmy, a precious sweet little boy dies and the question always comes – how can God let these things happen.

In fact, this gap in their theology is a major factor from keeping many people from their congregations. How can there be a “loving” and ”caring” God that allows so much trauma happen in the world. The “Feel Good” theology that churchianity preaches just doesn’t match up against the reality people see all around them and on the nightly news.

The Great Contest:

As previously stated, the Zoroastrian religion of Persia believed that man was trapped and required to choose between God’s good and God’s created evil. God also sent more than one Zoroastrian Magi to Bethlehem to honor the birth of Christ. Christianity validates this fact by having Zoroastrian Magi in every Nativity Scene at Christmas.

Also as previously stated Jews embrace the notion of the “Primacy Theory of God being responsible for evil,” where man is also trapped and required to choose between God’s good and God’s created evil.

Gnostic scripture restates these ideas as the Great Contest. From: The text of Authoritative Teaching, Nag Hammadi Library

And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.

And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We are to have nothing in this world, lest the authority of this world should detain us in this world.

Dave’s paraphrase

I speak of the Herd Mentality. A rancher here in Colorado has a herd of cattle. Does the rancher know each of his cows? – Yes. Does the rancher care for each of his cows? – Yes. Does the rancher only want the best for each of his cows? – Yes. But also, the rancher free ranges his herd among the lion and the dangers of great outdoors, so, sometimes in the back forty shit happens. What is the end game for the herd? – death and slaughter. Yet, some cows stand out and catch the ranchers attention. Those cows that stand out are saved back from the slaughter. My question to my readers is this – when God looks down upon the human herd, do you stand out?

[Dave]

The dangers of the Roman compromise

As far back as documentation exist; this idea of the Great Conflict was common place throughout the Middle East and Canaan. Common at the time Isaiah 45 was drafted and common to the first-century Christians that wrote the Nag Hammadi Library. For more than 3000 years of theological history it was seen this way, but over the last 1000 years of Roman editing and misrepresentation modern day Christendom or churchianity has adopted the more “Feel Good” attitude.

During one study at this church, the pastor’s wife proclaimed that her God would never do any harm, especially to a believer – I totally disagree with her statement. If she would have said no harm to the righteous among us, I probably would agree. It seemed to go very well for Enoch and Elisha. However, for every other servant of the Lord throughout scripture the process of being tested by God has been very hard on man.

Deuteronomy 13:3 ... for Jehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

James 1:3 Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.

King David, the most beloved by God – yet God caused his son to die as a punishment for David’s transgression.

King Solomon went out of his mind

John the Baptist was beheaded

Many of the original disciples were put to death

Steven was stoned to death

Paul was put to death

Rome filled the Coliseum with Christian sacrifices

Etc. etc, etc, etc

The nation of Israel was/is God’s chosen people, but which people have been afflicted more than Israel?

The real harm in believing in the Roman compromise and downplaying of evil is being unprepared for the war against our adversarial evil forces spoke about in Ephesians 6.

This churchianity club of which I am speaking, doesn’t believe that demonic possession is possible any longer. Unfortunately I never got to discuss the reality of the Nephilim being on earth among us in human form today, the reality of space gods, aliens, UFOs, and/or extraterrestrials, - or – the power of other gods on earth today.

I believe it is a huge mistake of churchianity to make this warfare simply a human struggle against our individual subconscious desires of lust, greed, and hate, totally misses out on the grand scale of the war’s battlefield.

[Dillon]

I don't know who created the evil. But if God created all things then it does seem like some slick political lie to say there is something that was created that didn't come from God. Can you really have it both ways.

Sort of like saying George Bush didn't create war in Iraq, he just allowed it to happen. Or Obama not taking the credit for the unrest in our country today. It isn't his fault, after all, that a fraction of congress actually wants to stand up for the constitution.

You know the story about my mother-in-law and my son. Each time the church was zero help to us. They pretty much just said Helen was a liar and when Dylan died our church actually had the balls to ask for a large donation. They kept throwing their new construction in our face. If we donated more than $10,000 Dylan would get his name on a plaque somewhere and therefore remembered within the church for ever.

Money money money that was all our church cared about. Sermon after sermon about giving in order to receive.

After each trauma in our lives, all the church could tell us is that it was a part of God's plan. How or why they didn't have a clue.

[Richard]

I am on several committees that spend our Churches money.

Camp, trips, books, the electric bill, new gravel for the parking lot, etc. Sometimes the business of Church does detract from the enjoyment of Church.

I admit that 100%

[Virginia]

I find it difficult to attend church because I think they are misunderstanding what the words are really saying. When they talk of flying chariots or being taken up to heaven. What do these words really mean.

Could these words mean something other than God did it or Angels?

[Dave]

Absolutely perfect assessment – you and I are in 100% agreement!

Rome usurped the Christian faith long ago, edited its book, burned or banned alternative books, and molded it’s mythology to hide Rome’s collusion with evil. If you had a differing opinion they just found you guilty of heresy and burnt you at the stake. (although I missed that teaching of Jesus myself)

Flying chariots is a perfect example. Flying chariots are all through the OT.

Gen 6:1-4 clearly says that “Sons of God,” Angels, or Heavenly Beings came to earth from the heavens. Were these Sons of God born in earth? – NO! Therefore by definition they had to be alien and extraterrestrial.

After the flood the Abraham story begins with the gods RA, O-Sirus, and Hours, from the star Sirius in Egypt; and Marduk form the star Nebiru in Samaria- both groups known today as space gods.

The UFO/Extraterrestrial phenomenon has been with man since the very beginning, or at least since Genesis 6. The UFO/Extraterrestrial phenomena is real today with credible people telling us that there is something to it – Presidents, Astronauts, Commercial Airline Pilots. Over 3 million Americans have claimed close encounters.

But how does Romanism deal with this? BIG DENIAL! UFOers are not welcome in the congregations, or called wackos, or even worse – as if the church (small c intended) cannot comment, but to perpetuate the cover up. In fact, the cover up has grown to such proportions that the common though of most of the population is that if we ever did find evidence of life in space – theologians would have to re-address their entire belief system.

Not me, my cosmology has the heavens populated with many life forms of various shapes, sizes, and function. The Jews believe that God possible made many worlds before He made this one – the universe a big place – and it has been demonstrated over and over that we are not the center of it.

You already know my opinion – these creatures that plague man are of the dark side. Lucifer’s realm is the realm of the fiery stones (space). 2 different Biblical scriptures tell us that the gods live IN the earth. Enoch tells us that they live IN the earth. America’s Admiral Perry reported space being living IN the earth at the North Pole. There are many reports of underground alien bases – Dulce NM, Porte Rico, and the Antarctic. Neil Armstrong searched the caves of the Yucatan Penicillin looking for the gods of the Inca.

Am I saying that I BELIEVE 100% that all these things are absolute fact? – NO! However, one cannot ignore the overwhelming evidence. If you say God created it all – then all of it has to be a part of God and fit somewhere within the theology!

I am more than will to discuss it and cannot help wonder the motive of churchianity’s reluctance to do so.

[Virginia]

The Vatican in 2008 said they believe in aliens but that it was all part of God's plan. During a recent remodeling of (I think it was the Pope's Summer home) one of the Vatican's buildings the workmen discovered the bones of extra-terriserals buried there. The Vatican immediately closed off the area.

When Pope John died UFO's circled the Vatican. WHY. To show their respect for the dead Pope?

[Dave]

I also have had my eye on this. Not only these stories but many others as well.

I believe in the "great contest" and there is story after story from scripture that supports my view.

Adam and Eve are in the garden - bang evil is there to test them
Before the flood - evil again come to test man (Gen 6)
Joshua crosses the River Jordan - bang evil giants are waiting for them.
Israel tries to get its act together and - bang other gods keep popping up.
Christ is born - demonic possession is on a rampage

The Gospels are written - Rome claims them and edits the book - defines heresy as anything non-Roman - people are not allowed to even read the Gospels for themselves.

Council of Nicaea 325 AD
318 bishops from across the empire - only five of those bishops were from Rome.
The Bishops made a deal with the Roman Emperor and the Christian world changed.

Eusebius' history (Christ through Nicaea) is what you would expect in a history of Christianity. It describes great men of God, some doctrinal disputes, the bravery of Christians under persecution, and some heresies that arose.

Socrates' post-Nicene history is a horrifying mixture of violence, ambition, political intrigue, and, except for a few shining examples, has little to do with following Christ

Luther translates the Bible into German (1522)
Tyndale translate it into English (1522)

By 1533 over 30,000 Christians were killed. The conflict between groups of the Protestant Reformation and the Roman Catholic Church lead to the "30 Years War" war throughout Europe (1618-1648) where up to 12 million more Christians were killed.

10 crusades in 300 years starting in 1095

The Medieval Inquisition from 1150-1400

Spanish Inquisition 1478 - last execution July 26, 1826.

Portuguese Inquisition 1541-1794

Roman Inquisition 1542 and still operates an office within the Vatican

Conservative estimates puts the number of dead in the name of Christianity at 150 million.

Is there a trend here? AND could you really call it a trend of Christian LOVE?

If alien agents are pawns of the dark (evil) side (as I believe), then their connection to the Vatican is no great surprise!

[Dave]

The Book of James tells us that we can judge a man by his works – wouldn’t this also be true of a religion? So, just how does Romanism stand up?

Protestants claim they left Rome behind they just follow the Bible which was edited by Rome, Canonized by Rome, and interpreted by Rome. When a modern day Protestants turns to ancient script to help understand their Bible, do they turn to the Gnostic writers, Dead Sea Scrolls, or Gnostic Gospels? No, they turn to Roman texts and/or Roman Commentary.

The end result has been a minimization of the evil forces against us. Scripture is packed full of demons, other gods, giants, Rephaim, and Nephilim. Today, modern Christianity all but dismisses all these to the realm of mythology. The church that started this thread told me point blank – there is no such thing as demonic possession today and promised to share some scripture with me to back this up. A promise they failed to keep to date.

Instead, evil and the powers Paul spoke about in Ephesians 6 seen to be nothing more than our own sun-conscious desires about lust and greed. Again, I claim this misses 90% of the battle field.

Other gods, for example:

The CIA's World Factbook gives the world population as 7 billion (July 2012 est.)
The distribution of religions as Christian 31.59% (of which Roman Catholic 18.85%, Protestant 8.15%, Orthodox 4.96%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 23.2%, Hindu 15.0%, Buddhist 7.1%,

That translates to

2.1 billion Christians (of which only 104,000 are orthodox)
1.5 billion Muslims who worship Allah
1.0 billion Hindus who worship Vishnu
1.2 billion Buddhist who says there is no spirit gods and just worship self and self-improvement
1.2 billion Others with many gods to choose from