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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2021 17:28:27 GMT -5
D"The Jewish view is that man – was the guardian (cherub) of the Garden Also a 100% correct translation – use of the word guardian Also a correct view – the Jewish view held long before Rome And a view that is supported by all scripture – precept upon precept, line upon line
R" Those lines are false Dave.
The word cherub does not mean guardian for all the verses in Scripture, precept, line upon line.
So cherub is just a functional way to describe man is it?
SO man dwells between God's throne? I thought most man dwell on earth?
And GOD rides on man with man's wings through the heavens? Last time I looked, I didn't have wings??
And God sends man as messengers to man on earth, so man understands God? So Gabriel is just a man? And the watchers who came as Enoch says (assuming this is true) were men from heaven, who shape shifted to have sex with (duh) female men. But you ignore the name here and say these are archons, different from men. SO now we have only archons and men. No such thing as cherubs, this is a function that means to guard something. Where is your proof archons or evil shedim were created by God, as creatures have to be created or they are just functional words.
D"Also a correct view – the Jewish view held long before Rome R" Well Rabbi Apple did hold that view
Now who is playing word games and changing word meaning to suit their own? You are
Have to feel sorry for you, who cannot read Hebrew words correctly and who make up meanings to suit their own theories.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 5, 2021 20:28:18 GMT -5
D"The Jewish view is that man – was the guardian (cherub) of the Garden Also a 100% correct translation – use of the word guardian Also a correct view – the Jewish view held long before Rome And a view that is supported by all scripture – precept upon precept, line upon line R" Those lines are false Dave.Please check my factsI have posted the Jewish commentary of Ezk 28 beforejbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/The king is so prideful and arrogant that he imagines himself to be a god. Eventually, he will perish at the hands of uncircumcised strangers. Finally, Ezekiel 28:11-19 begins with a dirge over the King of Tyre and ends with the death knell for the port. All who knew you among the peoples are appalled at your doom. You have become a horror and have ceased to be, forever (Ezek. 28:19). Not one word about Hebrew satan - just about the manoutorah.org/p/3720/G-d compares the king of Tzor to a cherub with a large wingspan. (Remember, cherubim were rather impressive creatures, not the winged babies of Renaissance art. See chapter 10 of this Book for a fuller description.) The king metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them. The King of Tyre is a cherub because he is the guardian/protector of his peoplewww.jstor.org/stable/30041062Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve Ezk 28 is a parallel Jewish teaching – about Adam and Eve - ManR" Those lines are false Dave. Please try to verify your facts and then stick to the facts – It is called Academic Honesty or stop telling me what Jews believe – because you OBVIOUSLY do not knowSO man dwells between God's throne? I thought most man dwell on earth?Man = the Host of heaven (Rev 20:4) All the Host of heaven was created on Day 1 (Gen 2:1-4) We are made in the image of God Man pre-exist his conception – came to earth with a job to do – and we return to heaven And GOD rides on man with man's wings through the heavens? Last time I looked, I didn't have wings??See how serious you are you have stopped studying anthing and just revert to exagerated extremes just so you can argue against you own idea This is a false correlation You are an SDA – and you are an Auzie – therefore all Australians are SDA The criminal was black – so all blacks are criminals R" Well Rabbi Apple did hold that viewIS THIS A PRE-ROMAN SOURCE - NOI can post an SDA saying that Allah is God – does it make it true But can I find a SDA before 1830 - NO Can you show me a source that Allah was god before Mohammed – NO Can you find a source that says Jesus Christ is the Messiah before the Gospels – NO Can you show me a pre-Roman source for your satan god - NO So if you are a Jew first and become a Christian - Hebrew satan cannot change his idenity Instead - The agls adds another group of creatures to the theology - The Beast of Revelation, the serpent race, the devils, satanas. (Chaldean origin = from the 99%) Everything the agl says about satanas is absolutly correct and true It just does not have anything to do with Hebrew satanScriptures says - prophesies that Christ will return to the Temple in Jerusalem Scripture says - the Jews will all become Christian Will they all have to stop and relearn the Catholic version of the Torah first? How effective is the Christian outreach to the Jewish community - if we demand they relearn a different Judaism Answer - it is NOT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2021 13:53:46 GMT -5
D" jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/ The king is so prideful and arrogant that he imagines himself to be a god.R" correct D" G-d compares the king of Tzor to a cherub with a large wingspan. The king metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them. The King of Tyre is a cherub because he is the guardian/protector of his peopleR"explain to me why the term "cherub" becomes metaphorical so the human is now just "metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them" ? Are you saying cherubs are not created creatures, just a metaphorical imaginary function God made up? D" Man = the Host of heaven (Rev 20:4)R" typical, you do not quote the verse, neither do you make discussion about it, to fit it into your view, that is not a study Dave, that is biased brainwashing. I don't even find the term "host of heaven" in Rev 20:4 So where is your discussion about this verse? D" All the Host of heaven was created on Day 1 (Gen 2:1-4R" The word "host" is here, not "host of heaven", Jeff says means "Army" So where's your discussion? Does this little word here imply all the creatures of all the worlds, including all the cherubs (assuming you allow these to exist) were created for the first time along with humans. D" Man pre-exist his conception – came to earth with a job to do – and we return to heavenR" Text please for this idea, plus discussions of the text you fit into your view. Let's be serious and give me a serious Bible study. RP " And GOD rides on man with man's wings through the heavens? Last time I looked, I didn't have wings??D" See how serious you are you have stopped studying anthing and just revert to exagerated extremes just so you can argue against you own idea This is a false correlationR" Why is this a false correlation? Do cherubs exist or don't they? If cherubs truly exist, then man is only compared to the cherub, hence the poetry term simile called a metaphor. What you have done is to say cherub does not exist, so like your Jews, man is functioning as a cherub, which means to guard, like a guardian. You have removed an entirely created creature who dwells near God. And the whole world follows the Jewish influence, that cherubs are imaginary creatures we know little about. This claim is false. D" How effective is the Christian outreach to the Jewish community - if we demand they relearn a different JudaismR" How effective was Jesus view of Hebrew? Did it completely change the Jewish community of traditions and practices and precepts of men? Come on Dave, be serious. Why did they kill Jesus, 2 reasons 1) He claimed to be god, something humans are not allowed to claim, so they did not see Jesus the human as also Jesus the YHWH. 2) He broke Sabbath laws. Question, is this word meaning ceasing, meant to mean ceasing all activities for a whole day? Can one do redemptive work on Ceasing Day? Jesus would answer yes, Jews would answer no. Both groups came from Hebrew, only one group can be correct. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2021 15:47:21 GMT -5
The King of Tyre is a cherub because he is the guardian/protector of his people R"explain to me why the term "cherub" becomes metaphorical so the human is now just "metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them" ?DUH – because that is the function of a cherub – to protect / guardianAre you saying cherubs are not created creatures, just a metaphorical imaginary function God made up?What a serious response form you Jesus is the Lamb – does this mean Jesus is a four legged sheep Jesus is the branch – is Jesus a stick Everything else in scripture is a simile for you so that your satan can be a god Such a consistent satan-centric approach to scripture D"Man = the Host of heaven (Rev 20:4) R" typical, you do not quote the verse, neither do you make discussion about it, to fit it into your view, that is not a study Dave, that is biased brainwashing. I don't even find the term "host of heaven" in Rev 20:4 So where is your discussion about this verse? The word "host" is here, not "host of heaven", Jeff says means "Army"I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teachingThe song is – ‘Onward Christian Soldiers’2Ti 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Messiah Yeshua. 2Ti 2:4 No one serving as a soldier entangles himself in the activities of everyday life, so that he might please the one who enlisted him. Psa 103:21 Bless Adonai, all you His armies, His servants who do His will. Psa 103:21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers—doing His pleasure. 1Ki 22:19 Micaiah then continued, “Therefore hear the word of Adonai. I saw Adonai sitting on His throne, with all the hosts of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years. Psa 33:6 By Adonai’s word were the heavens made, and all their host by the breath of His mouth. Gen 2:7 Then Adonai Elohim formed the man out of the dust from the ground and He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life—so the man became a living being. Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host; The word "host" is here, not "host of heaven", Jeff says means "Army"I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teachingSo you teach that man is not in the army of God –and we are created by the breath of God? If you do not serve the Lord – who do you serve – Rome? Satan? Who?D"Man pre-exist his conception – came to earth with a job to do – and we return to heaven R" Text please for this idea, plus discussions of the text you fit into your view. Let's be serious and give me a serious Bible study.Let’s be serious – we have been all over this more than onceJer 1:5 'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.' Eph 1:4 He chose us in the Messiah before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love. Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Messiah Yeshua, in keeping with the good pleasure of His will— RP " And GOD rides on man with man's wings through the heavens? Last time I looked, I didn't have wings?? D" See how serious you are you have stopped studying anthing and just revert to exagerated extremes just so you can argue against you own idea This is a false correlation R" Why is this a false correlation? Do cherubs exist or don't they?What a serious response form you Jesus is the Lamb – does this mean Jesus is a four legged sheep sheep exist don’t they Jesus is the branch – is Jesus a stick – lumber exist doesn’t itD"How effective is the Christian outreach to the Jewish community - if we demand they relearn a different Judaism R" How effective was Jesus view of Hebrew? Did it completely change the Jewish community of traditions and practices and precepts of men? Come on Dave, be serious.Let’s look at history – it is even call ADThe Jews changed forever – the gentiles changed forever – the pagan beliefs of the West changed forever – and this change has left its impact all over history and even currect events today Why did they kill Jesus, 2 reasons – Nope only 1 – it was promised from the very beginningJoh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. He GAVE – absolutely no one tookwww.ucg.org/beyond-today/beyond-today-magazine/the-lamb-foreordained-before-the-foundation-of-the-worldThe Lamb Foreordained Before the Foundation of the World The 1st Book of Adam and Eve3:1 GOD said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen. 2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled." Your 2 reasons1) He claimed to be god, something humans are not allowed to claim, so they did not see Jesus the human as also Jesus the YHWH. Absolutely Correct – the Proof does not come until the Resurrection You cannot be resurrected without being put to death first - DUH2) He broke Sabbath laws. Did he? Or is the confusion between the letter of the physical law – and the meaning of the spiritual law YES – physical law – caused Jesus to be crucified – because the law is deathSo that man could wake up to the Spiritual reality - the spiritual law – spirit is life
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2021 3:13:39 GMT -5
D" What a serious response form you Jesus is the Lamb – does this mean Jesus is a four legged sheep Jesus is the branch – is Jesus a stick R" There are many serious religions that say angels are imaginary creatures. Answer my question, are the cherub real created creatures or not?
D"I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teaching
The song is – ‘Onward Christian Soldiers’
2Ti 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Messiah Yeshua. 2Ti 2:4 No one serving as a soldier entangles himself in the activities of everyday life, so that he might please the one who enlisted him.
Psa 103:21 Bless Adonai, all you His armies, His servants who do His will. Psa 103:21 Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers—doing His pleasure.
1Ki 22:19 Micaiah then continued, “Therefore hear the word of Adonai. I saw Adonai sitting on His throne, with all the hosts of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left. Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people sat upon them—those to whom authority to judge was given. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yeshua and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had they received his mark on their forehead or on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with the Messiah for a thousand years.
Psa 33:6 By Adonai’s word were the heavens made, and all their host by the breath of His mouth. Gen 2:7 Then Adonai Elohim formed the man out of the dust from the ground and He breathed into his nostrils a breath of life—so the man became a living being.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
The word "host" is here, not "host of heaven", Jeff says means "Army" I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teaching So you teach that man is not in the army of God –and we are created by the breath of God? If you do not serve the Lord – who do you serve – Rome? Satan? Who? R" There is no discussion with every verse, as to what you are saying Dave.
Typical of you, you do not find time to make a serious discussion.
Hypothesis What is the "host of heaven"
Discussions between all 19 verses that speak of "host of heaven"
De 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
SOunds like me to maybe the stars, moon and galaxies, not created beings?
De 17:3 Same as above
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Note sure of the context, all the host of heaven standing?
2Ki 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
SOunds like me to maybe the stars, moon and galaxies, not created beings?
2Ki 21:3 As above.
2Ki 21:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Maybe host of heaven can also include bad and good angels, as the term familiar spirits and wizards imply?
2Ki 23:4 As above
2Ki 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
Seems to me implies worshiping bad angels, wizard and spirits who claim to be like the galaxies and stars.
2Ch 18:18 2Ch 33:3 2Ch 33:3 Ne 9:6
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:
Jer 8:2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved,
Jer 19:13 And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
The host of heaven seems to have the meaning of symbols of power, the stars are symbols of God's power, the good angels symbols of God's power, and the bad angels are worshiped as the host of heaven, symbols of their power (something God hates about men doing this).
Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: A symbol of humans who are also symbols of God's power, having saved them.
Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them
Rise in pride to make claims to those saved by God as symbols of His power to save.
Zep 1:5
Ac 7:42 ¶ Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
God gave up Israel to worship false symbols of His power, as the host of heaven
End of discussion
Conclusion
Host of heaven is a idiom meaning the things God created / or saved/, or pagan gods that use, that represent symbols of power.
Ie angels, galaxies and humans are all symbols of God's power.
This is how I do a Bible study on a theme Dave, line by line, following each context.
D"Jer 1:5 'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.' Eph 1:4 He chose us in the Messiah before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love. Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Messiah Yeshua, in keeping with the good pleasure of His will— R" Again no discussions for each verse.
Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee - reference to all knowing nature of God
He chose us in the Messiah before the foundation of the world - all knowing nature of God
He predestined us for adoption as sons - God knows who His saves, before He saves them.
I do not see any hint of humans pre-conceived from eternity. Only that God is all knowing and knows the decisions you make tomorrow, before you even think them.
D" The Lamb Foreordained Before the Foundation of the World R" Jesus was meant to be an olah sacrifice on an altar, not cursed as a criminal upon the cross. D"the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled R What does this mean Dave?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 9, 2021 7:06:35 GMT -5
R" There are many serious religions that say angels are imaginary creatures. Answer my question, are the cherub real created creatures or not?YES – one type of angel is called a cherub because its function is to protect and guardThe word "host" is here, not "host of heaven", Jeff says means "Army"I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teachingSo you teach that man is not in the army of God –and we are created by the breath of God? If you do not serve the Lord – who do you serve – Rome? Satan? Who? R" There is no discussion with every verse, as to what you are saying Dave.DUH – man is a full part of the army of God – don’t the SDA teach thisTypical of you, you do not find time to make a serious discussion. Hypothesis What is the "host of heaven"You said – Jeff Brenner said – it was the army of God R" There is no discussion with every verse, as to what you are saying Dave.Host = army of God = me and you – unless you serve a different God?Conclusion Host of heaven is a idiom meaning the things God created / or saved/, or pagan gods that use, that represent symbols of power.God created man- God saves man – and the pagan god’s are all bane elohiymThank you for validating my pointIe angels, galaxies and humans are all symbols of God's power.So humans are a full part of the host of HeavenThis is how I do a Bible study on a theme Dave, line by line, following each context.And your conclusion = D"Man = the Host of heaven (Rev 20:4) R" typical, you do not quote the verse, neither do you make discussion about it, to fit it into your view, that is not a study Dave, that is biased brainwashing. I am glad that you agree with me – man = a full part of the host of heavenD"Jer 1:5, Eph 1:4, Eph R" Again no discussions for each verse. Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee - reference to all knowing nature of God Please make up your mind man = a full part of the host of heaven Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. D" The Lamb Foreordained Before the Foundation of the World R" Jesus was meant to be an olah sacrifice on an altar, not cursed as a criminal upon the cross. If Jesus was meant to be on the cross – why do you brag that satan killed Him or the Jews killed HimD"the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled R What does this mean Dave?Are you now claiming you do not know what John 3:16 meansD"I’m sorry – I keep forgetting you are unfamiliar with mainstream Christin teachingOr are you trying to say that Christ it not the word Or are you upset that salvation by Christ was a full part of Jewish theology before the agl
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