Hadith

[Dave]

In Islamic terminology, the term hadith refers to reports of statements or actions of Muhammad, or of his tacit approval or criticism of something said or done in his presence.[7] Classical hadith specialist Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani says that the intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to Muhammad, as opposed to the Quran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith)

I have a friend in Tehran, Ali, he explained it to me this way - there are two mindset Eastern culture of just taking it as it is and believe through strength of faith - versus - the western "Greek" philosophy based logic that seek mechanical explanations for God.

As we discussed issued he would say again and again in frustration with me - Read the Quran, he would say - stop listening to the hadith.

The revelation

Islam - just as the Gospel - was usurped in message by a commentary - influenced by whom? - both influenced into something other than strict scriptural readings intend.

[Ali]

Hello David,

Thanks for bringing this up.

In answering the question of "how do we know we know?", if a person relies on Quran he can get all his answers from Quran itself as THE reliable source of Islam. But if a person seeks "external sources" either historical or scholastic- usually called hadith and Sunnah (tradition)- all troubles and traps will get set in for him!

We should bear in mind that 99% of today's mainstream Islam you hear, you read about, you watch videos of on youtube, is grounded in hadith and Sunnah, the oral traditions or sayings attributed to prophet Muhammad, and not Quran!

Therefore every time you hear a Muslim opining on something ask him:

1- Is this a hadith or are you referencing a Quranic verse?
2- If he's referring Quran, ask him to show you the verses!

Accepting Hadith means evils will feed you whatever lie or false teaching or story they want through Hadith and under the name of Islam!

So always beware! Hadithers are the best source of disinformation about Quran and true Islam!

You'd like to know about Islam, read Quran alone carefully that would suffice.

Thank you,
Ali.

[Elflord]

Hi Ali,

I'm Patrick and new here.

Was not the Quran the result of words passed from Allah to Mohammad and then to one who wrote it down? Same as the Torah and Bible. How do you know the Quran is THE reliable source? All religious texts seem to have originated with one guy who wrote something down, then others wrote something down similar, and soon you have a volume of works but still originating with individuals.

I'm not convinced there are adequate checks and balances in place to trust any ancient writing. So I guess I'm suggesting all writings start with a Hadither until it's written down.

No disrespect intended,
Patrick

[Richard]

Hey Ali and Pat,

Good question Pat. OK Hebrew text have been around since the beginning. To validate the NT people refer to the OT as reference

But the Koran is outside the loop it seems

The OT is written by a multiple of voices and only 1% are actual words by God.
The NT is written by a multiple of voices and say 6-7% are word of Jesus
The Koran is written by 1 guy and is 100% words of Allah

Hi to you as well Ali,
Actually, I had heard of Hadith before but I do not understand it. If it from outside of the Quran, then where is it written? Is there a hadith book? Like a cataclysm book?

[Ali]

Hello Patrick! Hello Richard!

Thank you for your comments.

That's a very good starting point actually. I do receive the same comments and questions from my fellow friends here in Tehran as well. I absolutely agree with Patrick that until adequate checks and balances are not set in place one should not get convinced that any ancient writing is a divine one. I'm going to share whatever I have to share, but please bear in mind this discussion would have a evolutionary curve, as we move on we will set pieces of puzzle around, so that at the end we may look back and see if the overall picture is convincing to our (heart? or mind?) or is not.

There are two ways to check the validity of Quranic text.
A. Analyzing the text from inside
B. Analyzing from outside meaning without using Quranic verses themselves

I'd choose A. for now, so I'll have the chance to bring forth some verses that you might not have encountered so far. Its important to get to know parts of the Quranic texture in the meanwhile. And later on, we can move to discuss it from the B. point of view.

A. Analyzing the text from inside

1. They say that doubt separates people, but Quran actually wants the mindful reader to doubt about Quranic text in his encounter! Quran takes this notion one step further and reveals that even Mohammad in some time was in a state of doubt about Quran as well !!

So, if thou art in doubt regarding what We have sent down to thee... (10:94)

As you can see the text which is referencing Mohammad with "thou" and "thee", clearly cues that for a moment or period, even Mohammad himself was in the state of doubt. Now the text moves on and provides a resolution for settling down the doubt:

...ask those who recite the Book before thee. The truth has come to thee from thy Lord; so be not of the doubters (10:94)

So the resolution for doubtful Mohammad is to ask those who "recite the Book before him"! But wait a minute! is Quran recommending that Mohammad should have gone to ask a Jew or a Christian in order to settle his doubt? Isn't that most Jews don't recognize Christianity and most Christians at the time of Mohammad and even now, think Judaism is expired!? Look how Quran paints the picture of Mohammad's time:

The Jews say, 'The Christians stand not on anything'; the Christians say, 'The Jews stand not on anything'; yet they recite the Book. So too the ignorant say the like of them. God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection touching their differences. (2:113)

Therefore, Mohammad was supposed to go and ask not any Jew, not any Christian, but someone who "recites the Book". That's the common phrase in-between the former and the later verses we have studied so far. But who is the one "who recites the Book" ? Quran certifies that:

Those to whom We have given the Book and who recite it with true recitation, they believe in it; and whoso disbelieves in it, they shall be the losers. (2:121)

Thus, those who recite the Book, are those that are in interaction with the word of YHWH. And that "interaction" (resulting from recitation of the Book), brings a Gnostic (as my friend David probably would like to call) or internal wisdom (as I'd like to call) type of knowledge for the person. A very exclusive one actually. A knowledge that helps distinguish word of divine from word of human being. And Muhammad is instructed by Quran to go and ask that kind of person who possess that kind of wisdom:

Yet they are not all alike; some of the People of the Book are a nation upstanding, that recite God's signs and verses in the watches of the night, bowing themselves. (3:113)

See how Quran defines the true reciters...nation of upstanding...bowing themselves to YHWH! Are we really now??

Hence if one recites and interacts with the former divine books that has been sent down before Muhammad adequately, humbly and properly, he eventually will be out of any doubt as he comes across the Quranic text. Such a person is the one who can even give a help to Muhammad to solidify his faith in a moment of doubt. Take a look at this:

We sent not any before thee, except men to whom We revealed: 'Ask the people of the Remembrance, if it should be that you do not know. (16:43)

Again, you see that Quran directs the reader to ask the people of remembrance (those who recite the word of YHWH always) about the nature of previous prophet-hoods.

Conclusion 1: Doubt about Quran? Never mind, one way is to go ask a true reciter of previous divine books. Go ask him about the quality of word of God. Go ask about the message of all prophets. Then come and recite Quran, a true recitation! Spend time with it, so it can interact with your mind and you can interact with it as you used to do it with former divine books. And then look again. Do you see the same unique message? Same quality of text in everywhere?

2. Okay you are still doubtful and you think you can write the same quality text, then note this:

And if you are in doubt concerning that We have sent down on Our servant, then bring a chapter like it, and call your witnesses, apart from God, if you are truthful. (2:23)

There are exclusive and unique aspects in terms of quality to the divine word, that no human mind can resemble and reflect them in his work. This issue needs special discussion for itself. A kind of discussion about living word vs. dead letters! That's why Quran invites the people to come and bring something like Quran, if they can, and it reasserts that:

Say: 'If men and jinn banded together to produce the like of this Koran, they would never produce its like, not though they backed one another.' (17:88)

We have to ask ourselves...what are those exclusive qualities of divine text? from Torah inwards, particularly with Quran? Now Quran takes the claim to its paramount:

If We had sent down this Koran upon a mountain, thou wouldst have seen it humbled, split asunder out of the fear of God. And those similitudes -- We strike them for men; haply they will reflect. (59:21)

Conclusion 2: Doubt about the text? Study and think about the textual qualities of sacred texts. That will help you realize its uniqueness.

I invite your attention to the following verses of Quran as I close this section of my comment on the issue of doubt. Please bear in mind that the word "Allah" is one of the names of YHWH and in Ancient Semitic language means "The one power that guides with a covenant to enlightenment", as YHWH means the one who exists from past to future.

It is not for any human to whom Allah has given the Book and wisdom and Prophethood, that he should afterwards say to the people, “Leave (the worship of) Allah and be my servants” – but he will surely say, “Be sincere worshippers of Allah, because you teach the Book and you preach from it.” (79) And nor will he command you to appoint the angels and the Prophets as masters; would he (a Prophet) command you to disbelieve after you have become submitted to Allah? (80) And remember when Allah took a covenant from the Prophets; “If I give you the Book and knowledge and a noble Messenger comes to you, confirming the Books you possess, you shall positively, definitely believe in him and you shall positively, definitely help him”; He said, “Do you agree, and accept My binding responsibility in this matter?” They all answered, “We agree”; He said, “Then bear witness amongst yourselves, and I Myself am a witness with you.” (81) So those who turn away after this – it is they who are the sinners. (82) So do they desire a religion other than the religion of Allah, whereas to Him has submitted whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or grudgingly, and it is to Him they will return. (3: 78-83)

What do you think?

Now in reply to Patrick:

According to Quran, the only person Allah spoke mouth to mouth was Moses. The case for revelation to Muhammad, according to Quran, is by sending "Ruah Quddus" (Rua'h ha'Qodesh) as a prophet to reveal Quran to Muhammad as a prophet. So its like:
Allah >> Ruah Quddus >> Muhammad >> people

In reply to Richard:
There are numerous prophetical and inter-textual networks that one can draw in-between narrative of Quran and narrative of Bible. Thus Quran confirms bible and bible confirms Quran in many ways. This we'll hopefully discuss in depth with verses.

And a line about Hadith: Ever since the beginning all the hadithers have written hadiths in separate books. While the textual quality of hadith is tremendously different from divine text, most hadiths contain short phrases of which is attributed to Muhammd (not Allah) in retrospect. In other words, even hadithers agree that hadiths are oral saying attributed to Muhammad while Quran is not attributed to Muhammad even by hadithers at all, but to Allah and rua'k ha'Qodesh. So even hadithers agree with the difference between the textual quality of hadith and Quran, yet they follow it ! Hope this helps

Thank you.
Ali.

[Richard]

who recite it with true recitation, they believe in it

Just speaking from the realm of psychology - does reciting a thing make it true. Recite a falsehood over and over and it will never be "truth"

The only thing reciting something over and over is in the indoctrination of the person doing the reciting.

[Ali]

May 15, 2012 16:58:24 GMT -5 Richard said:

who recite it with true recitation, they believe in it

Just speaking from the realm of psychology - does reciting a thing make it true. Recite a falsehood over and over and it will never be "truth"

The only thing reciting something over and over is in the indoctrination of the person doing the reciting.

Readership of sacred text is not about giving lip service to it! Its about interacting, analyzing and finally implementing the commands in practical life...100% practical.

The one recitation you are referring happens during TV/film and commercial viewership! That's the indoctrination! as the majority are indulged with nowadays.

Issue of language:

The original Semitic Quranic word for recitation comes from the root of "TL" which means: To mark the guidance. As marking is a conscious activity that demands participant's analysis, interaction, implementation and reformation of the procedure based on the individual's situation.

[Elflord]

Thanks Ali!

What an amazing response. Thank you for your dedication in educating me, your response was not of little effort. Also, I'd like to point out as a side note that I am aware that outside of Washington, DC and Tehran our respective peoples care very much for one another. I believe in the towns and villages across your countryside the people there would welcome me as a brother. I hope you know the same is true for you here, as well. Our governments do not represent the respect we have for one another.

Thanks again.

[Ali]

You are welcome Patrick.

I think an effective way to break the back of church/clergies, banksters and politicians on both side, is to unveil the passages of the book which have been overlooked so far.

There has been a systemic attempt on both sides, to hide or overlook the important message of all Bible and Quran. Instead our enemies on both sides are busy pumping doctrines, ideologies and disinformation about the other side, eventually pushing the people under hate, slavery, usury and war.

Say: 'People of the Book! Come now to a word common between us and you, that we serve none but God, and that we associate not aught with Him, and do not some of us take others as Lords, apart from God.' And if they turn their backs, say: 'Bear witness that we are submitter.' (Quran 3:64)

Nor the church side, neither the clergies would like you and me to come together around the above like verses. The reason? Quite obvious: they will loose all their soft power over the people.