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Luke 16
May 19, 2012 1:46:27 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on May 19, 2012 1:46:27 GMT -5
In Christ's parable in Luke 16:23, he said “And being in torments in Hades, he [the rich man] lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom” (NKJV).
“Although the two compartments [of Hades] were impassable and separate from each other, they were within the range of mutual sight and sound. This also reveals that disembodied spirits are somehow still recognizable and capable of inter-communication, even though such phenomena are presently beyond our limited understanding” (Dr. Henry M. Morris, The Defenders Study Bible).
Multiple locations !!!!!!!!
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Ali
New Member
Posts: 31
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Luke 16
May 19, 2012 12:07:49 GMT -5
Post by Ali on May 19, 2012 12:07:49 GMT -5
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Luke 16
May 19, 2012 18:55:08 GMT -5
Post by Dave on May 19, 2012 18:55:08 GMT -5
The veil is between Fire and Paradise.
Forgive the Q, but do you see this literal or metaphorical? Is it 1 locality simply separated by a barrier of some kind? Or is it 2 localities separated by metaphorical barrier - like a dimensional barrier?
AND - since we are discussion different localities, you have to admit we are up to 2 or 3 already. Here and the 1 locality separated by a barrier OR here, Fire, and Paradise.
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Luke 16
May 19, 2012 19:03:53 GMT -5
Post by Dave on May 19, 2012 19:03:53 GMT -5
Ali, look at how interwoven these themes are.
The point of Luke 16 in a discussion of Hell is the fact that several christendom movements use this passage to PROVE the TORMENT and FIRE of HELL. Yet these same theologians list this very passage as a parable.
The Q of localities is my discussion on Multidimensionality
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Luke 16
Jun 12, 2012 9:00:17 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 12, 2012 9:00:17 GMT -5
As for the discussion of at "Do Christians have Multiple Heavens?" I want to bring the discussion back over here. For those that don't read their Bibles, I offer the text here.
Luk 16:19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. Luk 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, (And in hell he lift up his eyes, (KJV)) and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish. (and you are in agony. (WNT)) (this place of torment. (YLT)) Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us. (ASV) [/color]
Baptist and other build a lot of their entire doctrine of "burning in hell" from this passage.
So from the translations presented here we have a few discrepancies - is it HELL or HADES? - is it agony, anguish, or torment? AND I want to make a big point about this word FLAME.
φλογι - Strong's Number: 5395 (to "flash," "flame," or "blaze")
Used only 7 times in the NT -example - Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired , there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. - Rev 1:14 ...his eyes were as a flame of fire; - Rev 2:18 ...his eyes like unto a flame of fire - Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire ...
No other commentary refers to the word use of φλογι; to mean literal fire. In fact, in Exodus when Moses went up the mount he saw the bush in a blaze - flame - flash - that did not consume.
So, I ask: Is this a FIRE and BRIMSTONE place - or a spiritual place where spirit form are better described as "FLASH' or "BLAZE"? As in a blaze of glory?
is it agony, anguish, or torment? - Obviously Lazarus and the Rich man could see one another. So is the agony, anguish, or torment from the flame, flash, or blaze - or - regret that the rich man didn't end up as fortunate as Lazarus?
And last we come to HELL vs HADES - the Greek word both are translated from is clearly Hades.
αδη; - Strong's Number: G86 - name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions, the nether world, the realm of the dead, the unseen, later use of this word: the grave, death (when use to translate 'Sheol' from the Hebrew), and of course hell (only after the 1611 KJV)
The negative or reverse of root word Strong's Number: G1492 - which means to see, to perceive with the eyes, to perceive by any of the senses, to perceive, notice, discern, discover (New Testament Greek Lexicon is based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary, plus others)
So the negative or reverse of - to be seen - is to not be seen - the unseen!
The Greek concept of Hades was around for a 1000 yrs before Christ. All Greeks went to Hades, not just the bad guys. Now in 1611 the King's translators chose to use the English word Hell instead of Hades. Hades is a part of ancient Greek theology, which had been deemed myth and legend, by the religious thought police based within the Vatican. So, not wanting to reintroduce mythological notions into christendom the translators used hell. But, what did this word hell mean to the English back in 1611? Much of the English language has morphed over the last 5 centuries. So, the meaning of hell has change due to its use in the Bible. Outside of the Bible hell is still a commonly used word by English and Scottish potato farmers. After they dig up the potato they 'hell' them away into the basement. They hide them away - out of view! Will any argue they place their crop into a fiery to bake and burn?
Am I saying there is NO punishment - absolutely not! The rich man was obviously in agony, anguish, or torment - filled with regret for his mortal life. But, I am saying that this passage does not establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, the Baptist version of Fire and Brimstone Hell.
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Stella
Junior Member
Use me O Lord
Posts: 62
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Luke 16
Jun 13, 2012 12:46:33 GMT -5
Post by Stella on Jun 13, 2012 12:46:33 GMT -5
Now wait a minute. the word hell appears 41 or 43 times in the New Testament.
Hades is used only 7 times in standard text, some text use it 9 times Tartarus, also of Greek origin, is used 18 times.
Gehenna, from the Hebrew, is also translated 16 time as hell. γέεννα (gehenna), a direct loan of Hebrew. Gehenna is most frequently described as a place of fiery torment (Matthew 5:22, 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-49); other passages mention darkness and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12; 22:13).
St. Paul speaks of "wrath" and"everlasting destruction" (Romans 2:7-9; 2 Thessalonians 1:9), while other epistles use a range of terms and images including "raging fire" (Hebrews 10:27), "destruction" (2 Peter 3:7), "eternal fire" (Jude 7) and "blackest darkness" (Jude 13). The Book of Revelation contains the image of a "lake of fire" and "burning sulphur" where "the devil, the beast, and false prophets" will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Revelation 20:10) along with those who worship the beast or receive its mark (Revelation 14:11).
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Luke 16
Jun 14, 2012 9:24:45 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2012 9:24:45 GMT -5
gevenna
Strong's Number: 1067 gevenna - of Hebrew origin (01516) and (02011) gheh'-en-nah Noun Feminine Definition: Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. King James Word Usage - Total: 12 - hell 9, hell fire + (3588 - hosea) 3
Hebrew origin - Strong's Number: 01516 ayg - probably from the same root as (01466) (abbreviated) gah'-ee - Noun Definition: valley, a steep valley, narrow gorge King James Word Usage - Total: 60 - valley (every time)
Hebrew origin - Strong's Number: 02011 ~nnh hin-nome' Proper Name Location Definition Hinnom = "lamentation" a valley (deep and narrow ravine) with steep, rocky sides located southwest of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the hill of evil counsel' and the sloping rocky plateau of the 'plain of Rephaim' to the south
Combine Hebrew origin (01516) and (02011) = a valley (deep and narrow ravine) with steep, rocky sides located southwest of Jerusalem, -- (my opinion = the steepest and nastiest part)
Remember the King James Word Usage - Total: 3 of 12 -hell fire + (3588 - hosea)
Strong's Number: 3588 hosea in all their inflections, the definite article; ho Definition = this, that, these, etc. King James Word Usage - Total: 543 - which 413, who 79, the things 11, the son 8, miscellaneous 32
So in English we get the steepest and nastiest part of a narrow ravine southwest of Jerusalem named Hinnon. Add the definite article hosea and it becomes- that steepest and nastiest part - the real deal
christendon admits that- This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; (exactly as I said, but now we know that it the piece of real estate -- where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; --- it was the dump!)
But christendom has to push its religious mythology saying, Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire" - a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Face it - every reference to the FIRE or BRIMSTONE is all a reference to the LAKE OF FIRE found in Rev 20
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So who gets throw into the lake of fire - death, hell (Hades in the Greek), and those not in the book of life. AND what is the lake of fire - This is the second death. - the end of spirit - the end of existence in any form.
Add to the list:
Rev 20:9 ...fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
... tormented ...continuously... for ever and ever. (Boy this is another entire discussion - in the Greek it is for anion and anioious - for and age and an age - not forever or eternally - and the cliques goes - if you have forever,how can you and more to it?)
Punishment - YES Eternal - NO Immediately upon your death - NO - at the Great White Throne Judgment - Judgment Day - at the end of the story Consequence 1 - for me and you - if not in the book of life = Second Death, Death of Spirit, end of existence in any form. Consequence 2 - for me and you - if found with the book of life = continued existence to the next age Consequence 3 - for he devil that deceived ...and... the Beast (Which I see as the machine - the geo-policital system of control through $ usuery $) ...and... the false prophet Personally - Consequence 2 is the only logical pursuit of mortality - and to hell (pardon the pun) with 1 & 3
Conclusion - if you want to say that gehenna is a place to be - thrown out - discarded - thrown away - dumped - flushed - forgotten about - left out - missed the mark - pissed on - shut up - piled up - unwanted - trash ---- where they will lie until management eventually reduces the pile by fire. I'll agree
But if you want to argue that this is a place where 99.99% of people go immediately upon their physical death - and there you will burn in hell fire and brimstone - in continuous agony and torment - until judgment day - where you just end up doing it all over again for all eternity. Then I say - disagree.
One last comment - "death and hell" (Rev 20:14) - at least 2 different localities.
Rrf: Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament."
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Luke 16
Jun 19, 2012 11:19:11 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2012 11:19:11 GMT -5
Stella said: Tartarus, also of Greek origin, is used 18 times.I didn't check on total occurrence count - other than the Greek word tartaros is use only once in the NT. (2 Peter 2:4) The remaining times the term 'tartaros' is an OT equivalent to the Jewish Gehenna. Remember this - what ever language used - meaning is dependent on origin - Hebrew is the text of the OT. Therefore tartaros was not the first word used - Gehenna is the Hebrew word translated later into Greek and Latin as tataros. OT tartaros = gehenna. Only once was the word chosen in its original Greek form (if you believe the NT was Greek) Strong's Number: 5020 Τάρταρος, from τάρταρον tartarovw - from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell) tar-tar-o'-o Verb Definition: The name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews, to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus King James Word Usage - Total: 1 - 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned , but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament."It is always a crime to discuss any one sentence or word without adding context: 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of . 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned , but cast them down to hell (tartaros) , and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly ; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished : Who - False Phrophets - false teachers Who else - the angels that sinned What - segregated - imprisoned - chained - held apart Where in tartaros - another locality within / beneath Hades Why - reserved unto the day of judgmentExamples from non-scriptural related sources: The Theoi Project, a site exploring Greek mythology and the gods in classical literature and art.Haides, the realm of the dead, was originally quite distinct from the pit of Tartaros. The Hadean realm was located either at the very ends of the earth, beyond the river Styx and the setting of the sun; or in the hollow depths of earth's belly. Tartaros on the other hand, lay as far beneath Haides (i.e. beneath the deepest recesses of the flat earth) as the sky lay above the earth. Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates. Through the gates of Tartaros passed Nyx (goddess of the Night) who emerged to wrap the earth in darkness, and also her daughter Hemera (Day), who scattered the mists of night. Later classical writers reimagined Tartaros as the hellish prison-house of the damned, conflating it with Homer's Hadean chamber of torments. www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros.htmlTARTAROS was the prison of the damned, a region in Haides where the souls of wicked men were condemned by the Judges of the Dead to a period of enforced purgatory, It should be noted that the archaic Greek poets represented Tartaros in quite a different fashion. For them it was the great cosmic pit beneath the earth, home of the Titan gods, Night and the storm winds (see Tartaros the cosmic pit). It was only in the 5th century B.C. that Tartaros was reimagined as a type of hell, in contrast to the paradise of Elysium. www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros2.html Different localities within the afterlife - dank, dark, dreary - not one mention of fire and brimstone. Holding area - purgatory Walled in by a wall of bronze AND - concepts of it being any type of Baptist Hell were not introduced into the definition until after christendom's influence Encyclopedia MythicaTartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe. While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss. However, in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tartarus.htmlAgain - I want to point out the phrasing -- in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell Again - influenced by the power of christendom's thought policeGood ol'e WikipediaIn classic mythology, Tartarus, or Tartaros ("tartar encrusting the sides of casks"). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus. Like other primal entities (such as the earth and time), Tartarus is also a primordial force or deity. Tartarus was used as a prison for the worst of villains including Cronus and the other titans who were thrown in by Zeus In Greek mythology, Tartarus is both a deity and a place in the underworld. In ancient Orphic sources and in the mystery schools, Tartarus is also the unbounded first-existing entity from which the Light and the cosmos are born. In the Greek poet Hesiod's Theogony, c. 700 BC, the deity Tartarus was the third force to manifest in the yawning void of Chaos. While, according to Greek mythology, The Realm of Hades is the place of the dead, Tartarus also has a number of inhabitants. When Cronus came to power as the King of the Titans, he imprisoned the Cyclopes in Tartarus and set the monster Campe as its guard. Some myths also say he imprisoned the three Hecatonchires (giants with fifty heads and one hundred arms). Zeus killed Campe and released the Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires to aid in his conflict with the Titans. The gods of Olympus eventually defeated the Titans. Many but not all of the Titans were cast into Tartarus. Epimetheus, Metis, Prometheus, and most of the female Titans are examples of the Titans who were not banished to Tartarus. Cronus was imprisoned in Tartarus while Atlas was sentenced to hold the sky on his shoulders to prevent the sky and Earth from resuming their primordial embrace. Other gods could be sentenced to Tartarus as well. Apollo is a prime example, although Zeus freed him. In Tartarus, the Hecatonchires guarded prisoners. Later, when Zeus overcame the monster Typhon, the offspring of Tartarus and Gaia, he threw the monster into the same pit. Originally, Tartarus was used only to confine dangers to the gods of Olympus. In later mythologies, Tartarus became the place where the punishment fits the crime. For example: In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon and triple walls to prevent sinners from escaping from it. It is guarded by a hydra with fifty black gaping jaws, which sits at a screeching gate protected by columns of solid adamantine, a substance akin to diamond - so hard that nothing will cut through it. At the bottom of this pit lie the Titans, the twin sons of Aloeus, and many other sinners. Still more sinners are contained inside Tartarus, with punishments similar to those of Greek myth. Biblical Pseudepigrapha: Tartarus is only known in Hellenistic Jewish literature from the Greek text of 1 Enoch, dated to 400–200 BC. This states that God placed the archangel Uriel "in charge of the world and of Tartarus" (20:2). Tartarus is generally understood to be the place where 200 fallen Watchers (angels) are imprisoned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus In Conclusion:The only time the word tartaros was chosen by the original author was 2 Peter 2:4 and Peter is talking about "Fallen Angels" "False prophets" "False Teachers" - all in absolute agreement with Rev 20. Other translations of tataros are from the Hebrew Gehenna. Who - only the false message makers - Fallen Angels (but not all of them) - Watchers / Archons - beings that tried to act like gods - the worst of the worse What - imprisoned - held against your will - chained - dark and gloomy cruel place - punishment - Tartarus became the place where the punishment fits the crime. (proportional punishment?) Where - a different locality within the afterlife - the lowest depths - surrounded by a bronze wall in the beginning, but as the mythology morphed over time (by the influence of christendom) Rome finally had it surrounded by a wall of fire -- still a long way from a fire and brimstone type of place Of interest to me - is that in the original Greek tartaros is a VERB - What does that mean? Perhaps tartaros is an experience not a location? AND - with the far reaching power of christendom and its thought police machine the meaning of this ancient word began to change to reflect christendom's mythology.
Tag Stella - your it
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Luke 16
Jun 19, 2012 14:03:28 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2012 14:03:28 GMT -5
Lets practice some ponderingconfusion here What is / was the central theme presented here? Gehenna and Tartaros are both holding localities within the boundaries of 'Shoel & Hedes.' Multiple localities - one least desirable than the other. One is a holding place while awaiting the day of judgment without guarantees. One is a place of proportional punishment which ends at the day of judgment - the book of life becomes a second chance? possibly? The point, for me, isn't the issue of who is going to Gehenna / Tartaros. The real issue is again this consistent theme of multiply localities - multiple dimensions. Actually, 10 dimensions of space - as defined by String Theory Physics (mid 90s). This concept of 10 localities in Judeo-Christian heavens (which is always a plural word in the Hebrew). Originates with the Book of Enoch. Who traveled into the heaven and recorded what he saw there. I offer the complete text at --- Ponder a Discussion :: Gnosticism :: Multidimensionalism :: Enoch & 10 HeavensRead more: ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=multid&action=display&thread=59#ixzz1yGe31NOWTo this list I add the fact, that as the Hebrew word is use throughout the OT is always a plural word, but it appears in 7 (count them) 7 variants. ( 7H + our 3D = 10D) I copied a Post by Stella - pasted here - Judaism
According to Jewish teachings in the Talmud, the universe is made of seven heavens (Shamayim) as below:
Vilon (וילון), Also see (Isa 40:22)also called "arafel" see Even-Shushan dictionary Raki'a (רקיע), Also see (Gen 1:17) Shehaqim (שחקים), See (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7) Zebul (זבול), See (Isa 63:15, I Kings 8:13) Ma'on (מעון), See (Deut 26:15, Ps 42:9) Machon (מכון), See (1 Kings 7:30, Deut 28:12) Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the throne of the Lord are located.
The Jewish Merkavah and Heichalot literature was devoted to discussing the details of these heavens, sometimes in connection with traditions relating to Enoch, such as the Third Book of Enoch.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_HeavensRead more: ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=multid&action=display&thread=46#ixzz1yGjgYh8m
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Stella
Junior Member
Use me O Lord
Posts: 62
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Luke 16
Jun 20, 2012 8:58:04 GMT -5
Post by Stella on Jun 20, 2012 8:58:04 GMT -5
I read the Enoch post. Interesting story. Never heard it, or anything like it, before.
What makes you think stories from Enoch are more special than any old myth?
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Luke 16
Jun 21, 2012 2:50:46 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 21, 2012 2:50:46 GMT -5
Regardless of authorship - the Book of Enoch is a very old text indeed. The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch date 100-200 yrs older than New Testament text. Enoch agrees with several aspects of current science theory. Enoch peers into the workings of the Universe and described the lightning and the water blending - neither putting the other out - an apparent duality - just as quantum physics see the universe as a duality of physical and wave - physical and spiritual.
It isn't the science of Enoch that has kept it from you view - is the overwhelming story Enoch tells of the Watchers and the spiritual cold war being waged upon us by these 1/2breed human creatures. - This is the story purged from christendom's version of reality.
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Luke 16
Jun 23, 2012 17:54:36 GMT -5
Post by Dillon on Jun 23, 2012 17:54:36 GMT -5
I hear people say that even Jesus Quoted from the Book of Enoch. Do you know where? What verse?
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Luke 16
Jun 23, 2012 18:27:08 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Jun 23, 2012 18:27:08 GMT -5
I want to make a point about the 'Thought Police" of christendom being so powerful that it has rewritten the dictionary to support its mythology. Ill talk about the Greek words - anion and anioious Literial definitions = age and ages.Let's see how Biblical reference materials treat the word aion. Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Aion". "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon". . 1999.Strong's Number: 165 aion ahee-ohn' Noun Masculine Definition: = for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, the worlds, universe, period of time, age NT Word Usage - Total: 95 - age 20, ages 6, ancient time 1, beginning of time 1, course 1, eternal 2, eternity 1, ever* 2, forever 27, forever and ever 20, forevermore 2, long ago 1, never* 1, old 1, time 1, world 7, worlds 1 Now let's see how classical Greek treats this word: KOINONIA Greek www.ellopos.net/elpenor/koinonia/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=197Aion corresponds with the Old Testament (Hebrew) word OLAM. (As translated in the Septuagint). The word Aionian, supposed to be the adjective form of Aion is said to have been "coined" or "invented" by Plato . This word, or these words are, it seems, central, to an ongoing theological debate regarding aion / anionous interpreted as "eternal". The word AION however is thought to mean mearly "age" and the debate goes on, as one side (Historically, the New Testament translators I suppose) feels, or felt aionian meant "eternal" or "everlasting" and some modern Christian sects and / or Bible interpretors / translators feel the word does not, and can not mean "eternal" as there is, they say. no sense of eternal in either aion or the Hebrew OLAM so it is felt "aionian", the adjective "cannot go beyond" the word aion from which it was derived. Point #1 - (Historically, the New Testament translators I suppose) feels, or felt aionian meant "eternal" or "everlasting" Listen to this statement very closely - outside of New testament theology the Greek word NEVER meant anything close to eternity - simply - an age. For an age and an age. Or, the age of ages. We all understand what is inferred with phrasing such as: the king of kings. Is the phrase ages of ages more confusing? Point #2 - Who caused a change in the words meaning? Who introduces the idea of eternal anything? - (Historically, the New Testament translators I suppose) feels, or felt aionian meant "eternal" or "everlasting" Point #3 - When trying to discover evidence that the phrase anion and anionos meant forever and ever - eternity. All the references point to the New Testament and other 1st and 2nd century christendom literature. It is unfair to use your own words to define your own words. Point #4 - Aion corresponds with the Old Testament (Hebrew) word OLAM. (As translated in the Septuagint). The word Aionian, supposed to be the adjective form of Aion is said to have been "coined" or "invented" by Plato . Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.htmlBy Jeff A. Benner ~ olamIn the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. The minor point I make is that aion and aionous - does not mean forever and ever - or - eternity. It simply means for and age and an age. The major point I make is that the conspiracy to alter word meanings to morph them into supporting christendom mythology comes from the very power of influence by christendom's 'Thought police!'
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Luke 16
Nov 19, 2012 20:46:14 GMT -5
Post by Dave on Nov 19, 2012 20:46:14 GMT -5
KJV, Luke16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Many many many people use this particular passage to PROVE hell fire. The rich man of Luke 16 is in a flame. Actually, the other possible translations for the Greek word φλόξ = STRONGS NT 5395: to "flash" or "flame"; a blaze -- flame(-ing). for I am tormented in this flash for I am tormented in this blaze I argue that this word blaze / flame is more representative of spirit than fire. The rich man was no longer physical, but was existing as the essence of spirit. Just today I reread the following passage from The Book of Enoch, Coptic version The Book of Enoch, Chapter 17:1 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming firea , and when they wished, they appeared as men b. The editor of the Book of Enoch supplied 2 footnotes to clearify this passage: Footnote A – Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (obvious multidimensional creatures)
To that will add: Psalm 104:4
King James 2000 Bible: Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
American King James Version: Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
American Standard Version: Who maketh winds his messengers; Flames of fire his ministers;
Exodus 24:17
King James 2000 Bible: And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
American King James Version: And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
American Standard Version: And the appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
New International Version: To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.
There are many more scriptural examples to ponder referring to the spirit as fire / blaze / flaming glory / etc
Footnote B – KJV Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, (God / Christ / Melchizedek and angelic escorts appeared as men)
Ponder this - there are 4 possible ways to ponder extra-dimensional creatures - spirits - entities taking physical form 1- impossible - no such thing 2- miraculous - hand of God stuff - give up we will never understand 3- These creatures have always had a 3 dimensional self. just as the 3rd D depends on 1 and 2 - perhaps 6th D creatures naturally depend on a 3D form 4- (and this is my pick) - it is all about perception - higher dimensional beings function more fully on the ESP portion of our reality - they may even communicate telepathically - they can dull our perception into believing anything they want - an owl - Aunt Betty - our President. Thus explaining many "shift change" stories, legends, and myths.
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